Occasionally a theist makes an argument so amusingly stupid that it would be a shame not to share it with a larger audience. This is one of those occasions.
On another thread, we’ve been discussing the unloving way in which God — supposing that he exists at all — is treating the victims of Hurricane Harvey (and the soon-to-be victims of Hurricane Irma, unfortunately). In the course of that discussion, fifthmonarchyman — a Christian — made the following, er, memorable argument:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
– Isaiah 45:7
keiths:
Yes, and creating disaster for his children is exactly what every loving father sets out to do. Right, Mung?
Nothing says “I love you” like drowning someone or wiping out their possessions.
At that point fifthmonarchyman got the bright idea that he could defend God by arguing that God is not our father. He wrote:
quote:
the Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could it be that He should have a child without there ever having been a mate for Him – since it is He who has created everything, and He alone knows everything? – Sura 6:101
and
and say: “All praise is due to God, who begets no offspring, and has no partner in His dominion, and has no weakness, and therefore no need of any aid” -and [thus] extol His limitless greatness. – Sura 17:111
end quote:
That’s right, folks. Fifthmonarchyman quoted the Quran to argue against the idea that God is our father — forgetting that the latter idea comes straight from Jesus. What are the first two words of the Lord’s Prayer? Our Father.
Seeing fifth — a Christian — use the Quran to argue (unwittingly) against Jesus is one of the stupidest moves I’ve seen in a long while. I therefore renominate fifth for the title of World’s Worst Apologist.
After posting his comment, fifth belatedly realized that he had just thrown Jesus under the bus. He tried to undo the damage:
Get it keiths ?
A loving father is not the default understanding of God. Not by a long shot.
To know him as Father you need to have met his Son. Once you have met his Son you are simply not dissuaded when bad things happen.
peace
It’s a bit too late to backpedal, fifth.
This is a good time to quote Augustine again, on the topic of Christians who make fools of themselves:
…we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.
The inanity goes even deeper. I’ll elaborate in the comments.
We keep pointing that out to him, and he keeps ignoring it. Not exactly the most rational response I can think of.
Been drinking the keiths koolaid?
Mung,
Rules!
I’ll wager it was from the twisted tiny piece of the gospel he picked up at Sunday school as a young child.
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
See above! 🙁
The TSZ that keiths describes seems different from the TSZ that I follow.
So you agree that it would’ve made God a liar…
This is false. But one thing at a time. Focus, keiths.
The bible has many things to say about God. Some of which don’t paint a pretty picture. Your claim is that Christians are unaware of these and ignore them and hold to a picture of God that is at odds with what the bible actually says.
We’re waiting to see your evidence for these charges you’ve been making against Christians. If you have any.
I certainly am aware of them and don’t ignore them. So who do you have in mind? #StrawChristians
You must be from that other TSZ, that one where keiths isn’t always right.
What rule am I violating exactly?
peace
“TSZ is becoming just like everywhere else in the world no one will listen to my overwhelming reason……grrrrrrrrr……”
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
None, exactly. I’m just getting a bad feeling…
J-Mac,
No, because he had already done that to himself. It was a fait accompli.
Exactly,
Keiths seems to think that Christians have the same understanding of God that you’d get from the shallow songs that they sing in preschool Sunday School class.
I wonder where he got that idea?
peace
As must be obvious, I have no dog in the religious fight. Personal belief is, well, personal. It’s just the politics. Who is exploiting who? The right gets voted in by the religious. They get Betsy DeVos. Is that the deal?
fifth:
Alan:
Good grief, Alan. Take your itchy finger off the trigger and stop interfering with discussion.
keiths,
Sorry to distract from your answering of questions.
Why do you care so much?
You are saying here that God would have lied again… (whether again I’ll cover next time) .
So the conclusion is obvious…
correlation does not equal causation.
If you think that Christians should vote for the Left you should try and convince them that the left would better serve their interests. Or that the Left respects their right to believe what they choose.
Never ending tirades about how mean God is will definitely not do that trick.
peace
J-Mac, so what if God tells lies?
Is it that lying isn’t possible for a god – or is it a matter of trust?
“Because they just won’t change their mind and reject God no matter how much I explain it to them……grrrrrr”
peace
Mung,
Exactly. That’s the point. It isn’t just real-life evidence that indicts God; so does the Bible. The evidence, both inside the Bible and out, shows that God is an unloving ass.
If you agree, then why did you ever dispute me in the first place?
😉
peace
I mean what’s the current level of religiosity in the US? 70%? That’s a powerful voting block. What’s Keiths’ plan? Persuade 70% of the US population they’re delusional (I happen to agree but it’s their choice what to believe) or ally with them to get an administration that respects the personal views of all citizens?
Oh hey….William J(ust doing my duty) Murray gets a vicarious mention in Hillary’s book!
It looks like his plan is to keep hijacking every thread with off topic comments about how mean God is and every chance he gets starting entire new threads dedicated to the question of how mean God is.
“that’s the ticket maybe then they will listen…………….grrrr”
peace
You don’t need to tell me that. I laugh in the face of causation.
Love your neighbour, give him your coat, leave your possessions and follow me. What about a political movement that advocated these ideas of social equality, sharing, support. Universal healthcare paid from taxation and free to all citizens as need arises?
I suspect not.
So…reluctantly by some…we arrive at the conclusion that If God had shielded Adam and Eve from the consequences of their sin; death due aging, diseases exposure natural disasters because of being thrown out of paradise..
It would have made him a liar because of:
Gen 2:16-17
“16 God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”.
So its obvious that if God had said that if Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge and God prevented them from dying, that would have made him a liar…
But this is just on side of the coin…
If God had prevented Adam and Eve form dying he would have made this slander true:
Gen 3:1-4
“1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!…
Woodbine,
Ok, there are limits! 🙂
Alan,
You’re getting a little, um, hysterical. I’m commenting on an Internet blog, not hatching a comprehensive plan to alter the beliefs of 70% of the population or to get an administration of my choosing into the White House.
as long as it was voluntary sign me up, I’m all in.
I’d bet the folks I hang with would be to.
The problem with that one is that you would need to trust the shysters who run the place to actually have the interests of the poor at heart.
I’d love to see the evidence for that one. 😉
The WJM post? Sorry, I thought it would be OK.
Of course! More though…
:rolls eyes again:
Indeed you are. I’m glad you realise that! Why do you not care about the politics? Why do you care so much about other people’s religious beliefs? Why does it matter so much to you?
fifth,
This thread is serving its purpose admirably. I’ve made the case that God is not powerful and loving, and the believers here are unable to refute it.
What’s there for me to be frustrated about? I already knew that you were irrational, so I didn’t expect you to give up your faith. But I’m enjoying watching you stumble over your shoelaces while trying to defend it.
The frustration is yours, not mine. Let’s keep the discussion going!
Woodbine,
That was irony! No problem. 😉
I’m impressed Alan! 🙂
What makes one a good Christian, Muslim, Jew or a religious person/believing in God?
Excellent questions! I was wondering it myself…
What does the “b” stand for?
Is that a fact? lol
Formatting error, in case you haven’t figured that out. Fixed now.
OK, we all make mistakes.
That’s right.
So, Keiths, why do you care so much about what other people decide to believe?
Oh, so that is what all this was about?
I think I said in my first response to you that of course from your perspective God is a meanny.
Wasn’t the OP about me supposedly disagreeing with Jesus by pointing out that Islam holds that God is not a loving father?
It seems to me that this thread like most of what you do here was just about complaining over and over and over that God is mean.
“if I could just get them to listen to me ………grrrr”
peace
What else is he going to do?
Alan,
I’m ignoring you for the moment because the other discussions I’m having are more interesting and important, but I’ll get to you eventually.
What discussions are you talking about? Your repeating the same things over again without acknowledging your errors and contradictions? lol
I think it’s because he is desperately seeking validation for a choice he made long ago.
peace
OK…..but so what?
It is a virtual certainty that everyone you love – friends, family, colleagues – has lied to you. But you still trust them. You still love them. In some cases you’d likely still take a bullet for them. If God lies to you (or Adam) about one thing it does not follow he is therefore lying about everything.
And of course the elephant in the room….
God slaughters children by the bucket load – you let that pass.
God tell’s a lie – well now he’s gone too far!
This is moral derangement.