Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

As the COVID 19 hysteria is unfolding almost all over the world, many are asking the question:

Where did the viruses come from?

ID proponents, like Michael Behe, have gone on record saying that viruses were designed, in most cases they cause no harm, but their role in nature is not yet fully understood here.

On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved, because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses? So, viruses must’ve evolved…

While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open, I’m going to focus on the lack of mechanism for viruses to evolve to solve the chicken and egg paradox in this case.

Simply put, viruses can’t replicate on their own and need another organism, like bacteria, to help them to do so…But viruses already contain pieces of DNA or RNA, so the varieties of problems open up, including the chicken and egg paradox.

On the other hand, if viruses are harmful, why the omnipotent natural selection has been slacking off for millions, or billions, of years and not eliminated them, including COVID 19, that has mutated right in front of our eyes, and natural selection failed to see it, again…

Or, another option for natural selection would be to help viruses to evolve to self-replicate, or to evolve some sex organs, as speculated by Allan Miller: Sex – a matter of prospective here.

After all has been discussed on the theme, another chicken and egg paradox will remain in the theory of evolution:

What came first?

Virus with bits of pieces of DNA or RNA? Or DNA or RNA worlds? But, the latter would need some kind of a metabolism world first, which leads to another, separate chicken and egg paradox that the theory of evolution is just full of it…😉

 

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310 thoughts on “Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

  1. J-Mac: 734 new deaths?

    “There was a glimmer of good news on Tuesday, when Italy recorded a smaller day-to-day increase in new cases for a second straight day. Data released by Italy’s Civil Protection agency showed 4,789 new cases from a day earlier, nearly 700 fewer than the day-to-day increase of 5,560 new cases reported Sunday, the Associated Press reported. “

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  2. Mung,

    So Mung posts an article of the media not blaming Trump.

    I think you should have wrote : Media Doesn’t Blame Trump, Mung Blames Media.

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  3. Alan Fox: Ordinary USAmericans don’t blame Trump either, on the whole, if latest approval ratings are accurate.

    Food for psychologists. The only thing he has been doing is looking for scapegoats, to cover up his own massive incompetence in this crisis:

    “the European Union had failed to take adequate measures to stop the coronavirus”

    Yeah, the guy is doing stellar himself at the moment, getting the first innocent people killed already.

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  4. Corneel: …getting the first innocent people killed already.

    Maybe, as numbers of deaths continue to rise (though I fervently hope they don’t), those currently thinking Trump is coping adequately may begin to reconsider.

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  5. Corneel,

    Like many a Brexiter, misunderstanding the structure of the EU. There’d be hell to pay if they locked down with their non-existent police force, rather than the sovereign states. In similar spirit, one might ask why there hasn’t been more such action ‘over there’, where there really is a federal state. Lead by example, O Great One, and show us how it’s done.

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  6. Alan Fox: Maybe, as numbers of deaths continue to rise (though I fervently hope they don’t), those currently thinking Trump is coping adequately may begin to reconsider.

    Without adequate measures to stop it, the number of deaths will continue to rise, but I strongly doubt that anything will stick to Trump in the eyes of his devotees. It is practically a cult.
    I fear that the best bet is that Trump will at some point realize that human lives take priority over the economy and over his humongous ego, and will start listening to his health experts.

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  7. Allan Miller: Lead by example, O Great One, and show us how it’s done.

    Yes, that I would accept, instead of all his empty bluster. We’ll see whether he is able to reinvent himself in this situation.

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  8. Corneel,

    I wouldn’t bank on that. Right-wingers (almost certainly ‘pro-lifers’ too) already eyeing the 2.5% mortality and wondering if that’s a price worth paying, culling the most expensive and non-productive members of society into the bargain.

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  9. Allan Miller: Right-wingers (almost certainly ‘pro-lifers’ too) already eyeing the 2.5% mortality and wondering if that’s a price worth paying, culling the most expensive and non-productive members of society into the bargain.

    That’s quite a bleak view of humanity you have there, mr Miller. But even looking through my cynical glasses, I’d say that since most of the politically influential right-wingers are smack middle in the vulnerable age-segment, that 2-3% mortality might be hitting a little too close to home.

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  10. Corneel: That’s quite a bleak view of humanity you have there, mr Miller.

    I don’t wish to tar them all with the same brush by any means – I should have preceded by ‘some’ or ‘there are’. But, it has happened

    Eta – I’d also note that vulnerable groups themselves have mooted this. A friend in his 70’s, no kids of his own but with godchildren and a fondness for my own kids, expressed his feeling that he’d rather take his chances than see that generation suffer.

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  11. Allan Miller: expressed his feeling that he’d rather take his chances than see that generation suffer.

    Noble sentiment. But does it have to be either or?

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  12. Alan Fox: Noble sentiment. But does it have to be either or?

    Don’t know. My grasp of economics is shaky at best. But since money is a human invention, it does seem odd that we face that apparent choice.

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  13. Alan Fox,

    Yes, though that’s a slightly different issue. There’s a physical limitation there, rather than the more notional thing of ‘wealth’.

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  14. A video from 2010 has been circulating here among cranks, where famous and well respected (left wing) journalist Iñaki Gabilondo claims that the H1N1 influenza crisis was massively overblown by the WHO back then (and something about pharmaceutical lobbies playing a key roll in the whole thing), prompting many countries to purchase vaccines that were never used, resulting in many millions of wasted public funds.

    Could there have been a (mistaken) perception that the WHO has been crying wolf about these pandemics, and maybe that contributed to governments being slow in taking Covid-19 as seriously as they should have, earlier than they did?

    I can post a link to the video, but it’s in Spanish and hosted by a crackpot youtube channel that I wouldn’t like to send viewers to. Will do upon request if someone is curious.

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  15. Corneel: The only thing he has been doing is looking for scapegoats, to cover up his own massive incompetence in this crisis

    Give him credit. He has stopped calling it a hoax.

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  16. newton: “There was a glimmer of good news on Tuesday, when Italy recorded a smaller day-to-day increase in new cases for a second straight day. Data released by Italy’s Civil Protection agency showed 4,789 new cases from a day earlier, nearly 700 fewer than the day-to-day increase of 5,560 new cases reported Sunday, the Associated Press reported. “

    It breaks my heart…

    I don’t think both Italy and Spain have turned the corner yet… but hopefully soon…

    What is interesting, and encouraging, is the recovery rate in China…
    Have you noticed it?

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

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  17. Alan Fox: Noble sentiment. But does it have to be either or?

    I meant financially; I realise belatedly we were talking at cross purposes.

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  18. Allan Miller: In similar spirit, one might ask why there hasn’t been more such action ‘over there’, where there really is a federal state.

    There are 50 separate and distinct states, each with their own government. There really is not a federal state.

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  19. Mung: There are 50 separate and distinct states, each with their own government. There really is not a federal state.

    I defer to your local knowledge – rendering Trump’s position vis à vis the EU even more mystifying. He assumes they have powers which (you imply) he lacks.

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  20. dazz,

    I’m not sure if I’m getting it in English so I suspect getting it in Spanish won’t improve things. (Dos cervezas por favor)

    Is it that WHO was perceived by governments as a pawn of pharmaceutical companies who then ignored WHO advice regarding preparing for future pandemics?

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  21. Allan Miller: I meant financially; I realise belatedly we were talking at cross purposes.

    Fair enough. There was some US politician who said something along the lines of being prepared to risk infection to allow economic activity to continue and not blight his grandkids’ lives and opportunities. Is that what your friend meant?

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  22. Mung: You have to actually read the article.

    You mean I have to read this?:

    Trump Is Not Responsible for the Death of a Man Who Swallowed Fish Tank Cleaner
    The media can reasonably blame Trump for a lot of things. This is not one of them.

    Is that what you wanted me to read??

    Or did you want me to read about some guy on twitter saying Trump has some moral complicity?

    You love to run to Trumps defense Mung, but you seem completely unwilling or unable to say one good thing about what the guy actually does. You then rush in to defend Sal saying he is not being racist because, well, you don’t think when he is being racist he means to be racist.

    Like I said, almost no one who is racist says they are racist. Is that what you like so much about Trump?

    Or is what you like, the fact that he will say or do anything, despite what is best for the country, if it helps him? Or haven’t you yet noticed?

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  23. Alan Fox: Fair enough. There was some US politician who said something along the lines of being prepared to risk infection to allow economic activity to continue and not blight his grandkids’ lives and opportunities. Is that what your friend meant?

    Lt Governor of Texas Dan Patrick

    “ Texas Lt. Gov. @DanPatrick: “Should we be surprised in this nation?” following deadly shooting in Texas, adding Americans have “devalued life.”

    “Whether it’s through abortion, whether it’s the break-up of families, through violent movies, and particularly violent video games.”

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  24. Mung: There are 50 separate and distinct states, each with their own government. There really is not a federal state.

    There is a Federal Government with power over all the States ,per the Constitution

    “ Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution is commonly referred to as the Supremacy Clause. It establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions.

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  25. Mung:
    phoodoo, I am also defending you by biting my tongue. But I do have my limits.

    I don’t care if you are biting your tongue or not.

    As far as I am concerned it is a chickenshit move to try to defend Trump, but then be unwilling to say why. When real peoples lives are affected by a bastard that only cares about himself, I don’t bite my tongue.

    It is the same reason I also don’t bite my tongue about what Alan, Neil and Jock do here. I don’t give a shit what other posters say about me personally. I have never cared. But in this latest row, Alan Jock, and by omission Neils have said “Oh, yea we hate racist remarks, and we would ban anyone who uses them, oh, but let’s just self-police on this one issue, shall we? Let’s not exaggerate, its not so bad. Nothing meant by it…” And then after being pushed and pushed on it by me, they say, “Ok, well, if we have to, we will do the bare minimum, but come on, what’s the problem? Can’t you just ignore it.”

    There are principals worth sticking up for, and that is what I do. If you want to defend Trump, then not say why, I also will call that chickenshit. I also will no longer contribute any science discussion here whatsoever, because of the actions of the moderators here. As I stated, I know many people personally affected by the right wing crazies of America, people who don’t deserve the treatment they got, who are completely innocent. Those assholes are emboldened by the racist orange infant, who uses a smirk and a nod to say, hey its cool to hate other nations and other people, its the American way, wink, wink.

    And “Oh gee, its really toooo bad that Romney got sick, ….”. Because Romney doesn’t support him. That is the leader of the country. The guy whose job it is to unite the country during a difficult time.

    You are free to say what your principles are, but so far you have chosen not to. All you have done is wink, wink, Trump’s not so bad. Then go back to reading the Nazional Review.

    Two days ago my girlfriend asked me, “Do American’s really hate Chinese?” She reads news. One of her friends got pushed down in the street last week.

    I said, well, I guess 30% are like that, unfortunately. They are not the majority, but you might not know it by listening. I said there are a lot of dumb Americans but they are not all like that.

    Don’t expect me to bite my tongue.

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  26. phoodoo: Don’t expect me to bite my tongue.

    Why don’t you post an OP if you feel so strongly about the racist aspect of labelling the current coronavirus pandemic as first encountered in Wuhan or China?

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  27. phoodoo: As far as I am concerned it is a chickenshit move to try to defend Trump, but then be unwilling to say why.

    Bit like people claiming the FBI uses people with PSI powers but then be unwilling to say why? Bit like that perhaps?

    Yes, you are right, it is a chickenshit move. Glad you realize that.

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  28. Mung,

    An outsider could be confused by such terms as ‘State Department’ and ‘Head of State’ into thinking the US was a ‘State of States’.

    Either way, the EU isn’t. Europe has been able to act because of national sovereignty, which actually supersedes the EU. The member nations each unilaterally chose to close borders that had heretofore been effectively dismantled for most purposes. I dare say each US state could do that. It would be interesting to see if they do.

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  29. Mung: *sigh*

    https://www.pbs.org/tpt/constitution-usa-peter-sagal/federalism/state-powers/

    https://www.ushistory.org/gov/3a.asp

    I did not deny the states have powers, just they are subservient to the powers of the federal government. Federal courts , part of the federal government , ultimately adjudicate disputes. The Federal Government decides what its limits are.

    Of course, eventually all are ruled by the “golden rule”. The economy is the ultimate good.

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  30. Alan Fox:
    dazz,

    I’m not sure if I’m getting it in English so I suspect getting it in Spanish won’t improve things. (Dos cervezas por favor)

    Is it that WHO was perceived by governments as a pawn of pharmaceutical companies who then ignored WHO advice regarding preparing for future pandemics?

    Yes. Unfortunately, in hindsight, it looks like Gabilondo fell for some crackpot conspiracy theory back then, and I wonder if the events following the H1N1 epidemic might also have primed governments to not listen to the WHO as closely as they should have. Or maybe the WHO itself failed to raise concerns about Covid-19 in a timely manner because of what happened in 2010? Not sure, just thinking out loud here

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  31. dazz: I wonder if the events following the H1N1 epidemic might also have primed governments to not listen to the WHO as closely as they should have.

    Perhaps a related story on Politico.com. Trump and co apparently had a playbook from 2016 setting out stuff they could do in the event of a pandemic. Which they appear not to have read.

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  32. Alan Fox: a related story

    The current admin in 2019 ran a simulation from Jan thru Aug coordinated with multiple state and federal agencies concerning a flu virus originating in China for which there was no vaccine. The simulation revealed all the shortcomings that we are currently observing in real-time. It appears that, for the most part, no one paid attention to the results and ramifications of the exercise.

    ‘Crimson Contagion 2019’ Simulation Warned of Pandemic Implications in US

    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/crimson-contagion-2019-simulation-warned-of-pandemic-implications-in-us/2243832/

    Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded
    Government exercises, including one last year, made clear that the U.S. was not ready for a pandemic like the coronavirus. But little was done.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-outbreak.html.

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  33. J-Mac,

    Schizophora does not refer to the psychiatric disease, but rather to a clade of flies. It literally translates to “bearing a schism,” which refers to a particular morphological feature on the face of the fly which evolved to make the clade more efficient at emerging from their pupal case. However, I see the humor in your relating it to a schism of the mind.

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  34. dazz: Or maybe the WHO itself failed to raise concerns about Covid-19 in a timely manner because of what happened in 2010?

    Or because they believed what they were being told.

    The story of the coronavirus pandemic is still being written. But at this early date, we can see all kinds of moments where different decisions could have lessened the severity of the outbreak we are currently enduring. You have probably heard variations of: “Chinese authorities denied that the virus could be transferred from human to human until it was too late.” What you have probably not heard is how emphatically, loudly, and repeatedly the Chinese government insisted human transmission was impossible, long after doctors in Wuhan had concluded human transmission was ongoing — and how the World Health Organization assented to that conclusion, despite the suspicions of other outside health experts.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/

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  35. J-Mac: It breaks my heart…

    I don’t think both Italy and Spain have turned the corner yet… but hopefully soon…

    What is interesting, and encouraging, is the recovery rate in China…
    Have you noticed it?

    Yes, and Boris just tested positive.

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