Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

As the COVID 19 hysteria is unfolding almost all over the world, many are asking the question:

Where did the viruses come from?

ID proponents, like Michael Behe, have gone on record saying that viruses were designed, in most cases they cause no harm, but their role in nature is not yet fully understood here.

On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved, because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses? So, viruses must’ve evolved…

While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open, I’m going to focus on the lack of mechanism for viruses to evolve to solve the chicken and egg paradox in this case.

Simply put, viruses can’t replicate on their own and need another organism, like bacteria, to help them to do so…But viruses already contain pieces of DNA or RNA, so the varieties of problems open up, including the chicken and egg paradox.

On the other hand, if viruses are harmful, why the omnipotent natural selection has been slacking off for millions, or billions, of years and not eliminated them, including COVID 19, that has mutated right in front of our eyes, and natural selection failed to see it, again…

Or, another option for natural selection would be to help viruses to evolve to self-replicate, or to evolve some sex organs, as speculated by Allan Miller: Sex – a matter of prospective here.

After all has been discussed on the theme, another chicken and egg paradox will remain in the theory of evolution:

What came first?

Virus with bits of pieces of DNA or RNA? Or DNA or RNA worlds? But, the latter would need some kind of a metabolism world first, which leads to another, separate chicken and egg paradox that the theory of evolution is just full of it…😉

 

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306 thoughts on “Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

  1. J-Mac,

    My main concern is actually their mental health. Eldest is more hardened by a few years’ clinical experience, but another Italy would be hard to deal with.

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  2. Allan Miller: I’ve become a bit wary of what ‘doctors’ say on the internet! There’s one guy recommending blowing a hairdryer up your nose … I think the main summer factors are UV light, better diet and less crowding. Temperature will be a factor – RNA half life steadily decreases with increasing temperature – but not the main one.

    Yeah, I totally forgot you’ve mentioned that before. Thanks Allan.
    Hope your daughters get all the necessary protective equipment our nurses are missing here

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  3. dazz: Yeah, I totally forgot you’ve mentioned that before. Thanks Allan.
    Hope your daughters get all the necessary protective equipment our nurses are missing here

    Sadly, mistakes are being made here too … ☹

    Here is an interesting paper on flu seasonality, which may have some relevance to cv.

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  4. dazz: Ouch, I see, thanks.
    So I take it that means the Covid-19 is unusually resilient to high temperatures, if the above 132ºF figure is right… so we’re essentially royally fucked

    Some us are for sure, my whole family falls squarely in the at risk, daughter is a nurse, wife in halfway through her chemo and I have arteriosclerosis . It is a strange time.

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  5. J-Mac: I didn’t think so… I went to NICU last week and RNs didn’t even acknowledge me… no N95 no gloves

    You are lucky my daughter was not around, the babies may being exempt from covid but there are plenty of stuff other stuff that endangers them. Don’t do that again.

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  6. newton: You are lucky my daughter was not around, the babies may being exempt from covid but there are plenty of stuff other stuff that endangers them. Don’t do that again.

    The RNs had no masks of gloves on…

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  7. Alan Fox: I don’t know what to say other than kudos to your daughters for choosing careers in the caring professions.

    Yep, we’re beyond proud. I’ve done fuck all for the human race beyond producing 3 great kids! 🤣 I was so impressed with the way my eldest, a doctor, calmed my stressed youngest on our family chat last night. She’s already having to make some tough decisions, and that’s without covid-19.

    One silver lining in all this is that the value of the NHS is placed centre stage. I can’t imagine the worry of private systems, especially if medical care is tied to one’s job.

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  8. Allan Miller:
    J-Mac,

    My main concern is actually their mental health. Eldest is more hardened by a few years’ clinical experience, but another Italy would be hard to deal with.

    I agree

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  9. J-Mac: So, this means that statins overwhelm the liver and that could come at the price to the whole organism…

    I agre with DNA_jock stop with your igorant bullshit speculations. Statins don’t overwhelm the liver in any way whatsoever.

    J-Mac: Just a speculations

    no not speculation just ignorant, uninformed nonsense.

    J-Mac: Sauna is the solution, perhaps?

    What the fuck do you think a sauna is gonna do to fight coronavirus?

    DNA_Jock:
    J-Mac,
    Please stop it with your speculations.
    Yakking on about the danger posed by statins (which might conceivably help) when the mechanistic link is with RAAS antagonists and ACE2 expression levels only makes you look dumb.

    Absoutey! Maybe something should be done on this site to proactively stop the spreading of ignorant BS from the uninformed. that is the last thing we need now.

    As I posted in Sandbox the drug lorsartan is on clinical trials, or about to start in a matter of days, for the propensity of this ARB atagonist, when onboard, promotes the ACE2 and AT1 to bind together and prevent the virus from binding ACE2 and entering the cells to begin its damage.

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  10. newton: Some us are for sure, my whole family falls squarely in the at risk, daughter is a nurse, wife in halfway through her chemo and I have arteriosclerosis . It is a strange time.

    Best wishes to you and your family, mate. With a bit of luck this nightmare will over soon.

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  11. PeterP,

    “The effect of statins on average survival in randomised trials, an analysis of end point postponement
    Malene Lopez Kristensen1, Palle Mark Christensen1, Jesper Hallas1,2
    Author affiliations
    Abstract
    Objective To estimate the average postponement of death in statin trials.

    Setting A systematic literature review of all statin trials that presented all-cause survival curves for treated and untreated.

    Intervention Statin treatment compared to placebo.

    Primary outcome measures The average postponement of death as represented by the area between the survival curves.

    Results 6 studies for primary prevention and 5 for secondary prevention with a follow-up between 2.0 and 6.1 years were identified. Death was postponed between −5 and 19 days in primary prevention trials and between −10 and 27 days in secondary prevention trials. The median postponement of death for primary and secondary prevention trials were 3.2 and 4.1 days, respectively.

    Conclusions Statin treatment results in a surprisingly small average gain in overall survival within the trials’ running time. For patients whose life expectancy is limited or who have adverse effects of treatment, withholding statin therapy should be considered.

    I’m not sure, but during COVID 19 some people could benefit from sparing adverse effects of treatment with statins…
    But not you and DNA-joke. Oh no! Becuase ignorance has its price…🤣

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  12. dazz: Best wishes to you and your family, mate. With a bit of luck this nightmare will over soon.

    Thanks, not optimistic given present management of the US. A dual nightmare

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  13. J-Mac: Malene Lopez Kristensen1, Palle Mark Christensen1, Jesper Hallas1,2

    From study”
    “We have only estimated the survival gain achieved within the trials’ running time, whereas in real life, treatment is often continued much longer.”

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  14. J-Mac: I’m not sure, but during COVID 19 some people could benefit from sparing adverse effects of treatment with statin

    Unless it adverse effects you are referring to concerned the respiratory system , not seeing the connection.

    Personally affected the muscles in my legs.

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  15. Nigeria reported two cases of chloroquine poisoning after U.S. President Donald Trump praised the anti-malaria drug as a treatment for the novel coronavirus.

    Health officials are warning Nigerians against self-medicating after demand for the drug surged in Lagos, a city that’s home to 20 million people. Two people were hospitalized in Lagos for chloroquine overdoses, Oreoluwa Finnih, senior health assistant to the governor of Lagos, said in an interview.

    He is a monster.

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  16. J-Mac: So, this means that statins overwhelm the liver and that could come at the price to the whole organism

    jmac, faux sage, there is nothing in the study you posted that supports this erronious and ignorant claim of yours. At least you could have tried to support your nonsense claim instead of trying to gaslight everyone to cover up your ignorance of the subject.

    As with your TMZ fiasco you completely missed the thrust of the article you posted surprising no one.

    Don’t forget everyone is waiting for you to elucidate how a sauna is going to be efficacious in combatting coronavirus. Or is this just another in your loooong list of bogus and unsupportable claims? That was a rhetorical question, mac, everyone knows the answer to it already.

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  17. J-Mac: I’m not sure, but during COVID 19 some people could benefit from sparing adverse effects of treatment with statins

    Of course your not sure You know nothing of the subject matter.

    J-Mac: But not you and DNA-joke. Oh no! Becuase ignorance has its price

    Neither of us has any problem with supporting claims that we make. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated time and time again that you cannot support the claims you make. Perhaps you might rethink your strategy of ‘skim reading’ since it repeatedly fails you and makes you look the fool when you post such demonstrably ignorant claims.

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  18. J-Mac,

    As PeterP has pointed out, there is nothing in the study that you cited that supports the claim that you made.
    Sadly, you are revisiting the same “statins are no good” hobby-horse that you attempted a year ago. Back then, you touted the work of an English Primary Care Crank, Dr Martin Kendrick; this time around, it’s a group of Danes promoting an alternate metric for meta-analyses. Strange to relate, they are touting a metric that is equivalent to Dr. Kendrick’s RMST (restricted mean survival time).
    A year ago, I posed a simple test for you, to give you the opportunity to show even the vaguest inkling of being able to understand clinical trial data.
    You. Ran. Away.
    You have no clue whatsoever you are talking about.
    Promulgating snake-oil remedies has real-life consequences, equivalent to shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theatre.
    Stop it.

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  19. dazz: Thanks Mung. Be safe

    Any news dazz? Please keep us updated. Our thoughts are with you. Thank you.

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  20. Mung: Any news dazz? Please keep us updated. Our thoughts are with you. Thank you.

    Thanks mate. He’s been diagnosed with pneumonia, but his fever is down to 37ºC (99ºF) today, from 39ºC (102ºF) yesterday. Hasn’t been tested for Covid-19 as far as I know

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  21. dazz: Thanks mate. He’s been diagnosed with pneumonia, but his fever is down to 37ºC (99ºF) today, from 39ºC (102ºF) yesterday. Hasn’t been tested for Covid-19 as far as I know

    Protective gear is scarce so they are not testing unless needed for treatment to save resources in parts of US

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  22. dazz,

    That sounds like good news as in turned the corner. But if folks aren’t tested, how do we know the real level of infection among the general population.

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  23. Alan Fox: But if folks aren’t tested, how do we know the real level of infection among the general population.

    In the UK they mentioned some sort of randomized sampling they had been doing in the population as a whole to get an idea of the actual numbers.

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  24. Alan Fox:
    dazz,

    That sounds like good news as in turned the corner. But if folks aren’t tested, how do we know the real level of infection among the general population.

    Turns out he’s been tested: positive for coronavirus. He’s feeling much better today though.

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  25. “While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open”
    Does this mean that you intend to posit your thoughts, ignore all evidence to the contrary, and insult anyone who disagrees?

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  26. dazz,
    Just noticed this good news! Now let’s hope that the measures to avoid further spread turn out to be effective.

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  27. Some modeling suggests that we need to get pretty serious on this pandemic.

    Mere mitigation will not suffice; we need to get R close to unity.
    Interestingly, it’s closing schools and universities that has the biggest effect.
    Let me know if the link doesn’t work.

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  28. Mung,

    “It is so effective at attaching to human cells that the researchers said the spike proteins were the result of natural selection and not genetic engineering.”

    Veeery eenteresting… 🤔

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  29. Stop touching your face, Allan Miller,

    If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn’t have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won’t work. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.
    Curiouser and curiouser.

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  30. DNA_Jock,

    OK, thanks.

    The key is dollar signs. Put LaTeX code between single dollar signs and it appears in a line, between double dollar signs it appears on its own line. Tom is King of LaTeX but if you put R_0 between dollar signs you should get R_0

    ETA using code tag doesn’t seem to work.

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  31. Schizophora:
    “While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open”
    Does this mean that you intend to posit your thoughts, ignore all evidence to the contrary, and insult anyone who disagrees?

    If you are delusional schizophoranic, chlorpromazine has shown some hope in both psychiatric d/o and COVID-2019…

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  32. Worst day yet for UK. ☹ I was getting a little optimistic over the last day or so, but my daughter explained that reporting is less at weekends.

    Of course, we need at least a week.

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  33. Alan Fox:
    Please resist the urge on personal insults, folks.

    Sorry, but I just couldn’t resisted the joke related to the popular antipsychotic drug, connected to his unusual nickname, and Cov19..😉

    Here is the link to the paper where some possible treatments for COVID-19 are identified…

    https://www.ijbs.com/v16p1724.htm#B39

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  34. dazz: Yeah, hopefully we’ll follow in a few days. Fingers crossed

    Do Spaniards have free healthcare, including drugs over 65?

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