Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

As the COVID 19 hysteria is unfolding almost all over the world, many are asking the question:

Where did the viruses come from?

ID proponents, like Michael Behe, have gone on record saying that viruses were designed, in most cases they cause no harm, but their role in nature is not yet fully understood here.

On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved, because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses? So, viruses must’ve evolved…

While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open, I’m going to focus on the lack of mechanism for viruses to evolve to solve the chicken and egg paradox in this case.

Simply put, viruses can’t replicate on their own and need another organism, like bacteria, to help them to do so…But viruses already contain pieces of DNA or RNA, so the varieties of problems open up, including the chicken and egg paradox.

On the other hand, if viruses are harmful, why the omnipotent natural selection has been slacking off for millions, or billions, of years and not eliminated them, including COVID 19, that has mutated right in front of our eyes, and natural selection failed to see it, again…

Or, another option for natural selection would be to help viruses to evolve to self-replicate, or to evolve some sex organs, as speculated by Allan Miller: Sex – a matter of prospective here.

After all has been discussed on the theme, another chicken and egg paradox will remain in the theory of evolution:

What came first?

Virus with bits of pieces of DNA or RNA? Or DNA or RNA worlds? But, the latter would need some kind of a metabolism world first, which leads to another, separate chicken and egg paradox that the theory of evolution is just full of it…😉

 

310 thoughts on “Viruses: another chicken and egg paradox?

  1. Just heard we have two confirmed cases of Covid-19 in our village (of around 120 inhabitants).

  2. Alan Fox,

    Sorry to hear. That’s spread = extension. Thus, contact tracking.

    IDT & evolution displaced now in conversation.

  3. Gregory,

    Well, it’s worrying considering we’re out in the sticks and second home owners are absent. I’m sure someone will be checking for contacts. I don’t know the couple except by sight.

  4. Alan Fox:
    Just heard we have two confirmed cases of Covid-19 in our village (of around 120 inhabitants).

    Would you have known had it been another type of coronavirus?
    10% out of 120 inhabitants usually carry some kind of viruse…

  5. J-Mac,
    I assume they tested positive for it after showing symptoms. So far, they’re in isolation at home so I imagine their symptoms aren’t too severe.

  6. Alan Fox:
    J-Mac,
    I assume they tested positive for it after showing symptoms. So far, they’re in isolation at home so I imagine their symptoms aren’t too severe.

    But you don’t know if they were tested, or just have the symptoms?

  7. J-Mac: But you don’t know if they were tested, or just have the symptoms?

    Why? Think it’s all overhyped do you, by any chance?

  8. Alan Fox:
    Gregory,

    Well, it’s worrying considering we’re out in the sticks and second home owners are absent. I’m sure someone will be checking for contacts. I don’t know the couple except by sight.

    Maybe they are stuck on vacation, like many other people…

  9. OMagain: Why? Think it’s all overhyped do you, by any chance?

    I’m trying to think rationally…
    This is my third pandemic; SARS, H1N1 and this now…
    I had to wear full gear, N95 mask, goggles, the works …

    Do you have any idea what I’m talking about?
    No, eh?

  10. J-Mac: Do you have any idea what I’m talking about?

    No. You are very bad at saying what you are actually talking about. As everyone else has noted over and over.

    J-Mac: No, eh?

    Quantum.

  11. Alan Fox:
    dazz,

    Oh shoot !Best wishes for a full recovery!

    Thanks, Alan. He’s young and healthy. Hopefully he’ll be alright

    J-Mac: Not by an ambulance?

    I’m guessing, yes, by ambulance.

  12. J-Mac: What about the incubation period?

    Worried about a false negative to the test?

    newton: people are still getting cancer and need treatments and oncologists are even normal times are in short supply.

    Much of the work oncologist do can be done online, over the phone

    Sure, some stuff could be , some stuff requires actually being in the same room as the patient, is your suggestion that any doctor who treats the virus should be isolated from then on, or we should worry about Drs hurrying back work ,knowingly endangering their patients, to make extra dough?

    Why would a Dr risk their life working in a hot spot in the first place if money was their motivation.?

    as it is done without outbreaks

    Have had a lot of experience with oncologists lately, there are hot lines for questions but the actual relationship between the cancer patient and her medical team is based on trust and the doctor’s ability to dispel fear of the unknown for the patient, In my experience that requires a flesh and blood person. A special kind of person.

    Many radiologist hardly show up in DIs, if at all…

    Radiologists are not oncologists.

  13. OMagain: No. You are very bad at saying what you are actually talking about. As everyone else has noted over and over.

    Don’t worry! I still care and want you to survive the COVID-19.

    OMagain: Quantum

    Wouldn’t be nice, if we could zap COVID-19, like quantum correlations?

  14. J-Mac: But you don’t know if they were tested, or just have the symptoms?

    The only way to confirm it would be by testing, right?

  15. dazz: Thanks, Alan. He’s young and healthy. Hopefully he’ll be alright

    I’m guessing, yes, by ambulance.

    Would it make you feel better, if I said that young and healthy people have close to 100% survival rate?

  16. J-Mac: Wouldn’t be nice, if we could zap COVID-19, like quantum correlations?

    Or if the freaking designer would get off the couch and help the sick folks out.

  17. J-Mac: Would it make you feel better, if I said that young and healthy people have close to 100% survival rate?

    Still taking up a bed in the hospital.

  18. newton: Still taking up a bed in the hospital.

    Well… if asymptomatic for COVID-19, he/she should be discharged and wait for the test results at home…

  19. newton: Or if the freaking designer would get off the couch and help the sick folks out.

    I thought you didn’t believe there was a designer…

  20. J-Mac: Would it make you feel better, if I said that young and healthy people have close to 100% survival rate?

    I know

  21. J-Mac: Would it make you feel better, if I said that young and healthy people have close to 100% survival rate?

    And spreading lies like that is only contributing to the problem: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-young-people-not-invincible-world-health-organisation-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-a9415651.html

    STFU if you don’t know what you are talking about

    About 12 per cent of those who have been treated in intensive care in Italy are aged between 19 and 50, according to official figures released last week.

  22. J-Mac: I thought you didn’t believe there was a designer…

    I never discounted the logical possibility of unknown designer. Unfortunately, those who actual believe in the designer are completely reluctant to take their own belief seriously enough to be at all useful.

    For instance, the Virus , is it designed by the big designer? What is the purpose of it , if designed? If not designed, is it not complex?

    You like to speculate about possible motivations of others , try the designer , flesh out the theory, you have a real life instance to put the hypothesis to work.

    I will get you started, design infers purpose which one ? Punishment , apathy, an experiment ,incompetence, a bet with another designer, a disruption in the quantum ?

    If we can narrow down the motivation it might be useful in developing a strategy. ID to the rescue

  23. J-Mac: Well… if asymptomatic for COVID-19, he/she should be discharged and wait for the test results at home…

    Some are not asymptotic. There is a breakdown of the demographics of those who perished in Italy.

    “ The new study could provide insight into why Italy’s death rate, at about 8% of total infected people, is higher than in other countries.

    The Rome-based institute has examined medical records of about 18% of the country’s coronavirus fatalities, finding that just three victims, or 0.8% of the total, had no previous pathology. Almost half of the victims suffered from at least three prior illnesses and about a fourth had either one or two previous conditions.

    More than 75% had high blood pressure, about 35% had diabetes and a third suffered from heart disease. “

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

    “Among adults age 20 and older in the United States, the following have high blood pressure: – For non-Hispanic whites, 33.4 percent of men and 30.7 percent of women. – For non-Hispanic blacks, 42.6 percent of men and 47.0 percent of women. – For Mexican Americans, 30.1 percent of men and 28.8 percent of women.”

    American Heart Association

    Sobering numbers

  24. J-Mac: Too many unknowns…

    Yes there are, though I have more faith that a doctor has taken the more precautions for his patient’s safety than the dude in line at Home Depot has taken for others.

  25. OMagain: And spreading lies like that is only contributing to the problem: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-young-people-not-invincible-world-health-organisation-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-a9415651.html

    STFU if you don’t know what you are talking about

    About 12 per cent of those who have been treated in intensive care in Italy are aged between 19 and 50, according to official figures released last week.

    The article doesn’t say details, such as:

    1. How many of those people had underlying conditions
    2. How many all those people were intubated
    3. How many of those people took ADVIL
    4. Is regular wine drinking (sugar) contributing
    5. High blood pressure and HBP meds

    It is still unknown why Italy is so hard hit, including younger populations among whom some have died…

    Is it ADVIL? Pasta? Depleted microbio? Wine? Something Italy has other countries don’t?
    Will we even know?

    Some clues are here…

    https://youtu.be/krdK2BDgpfU

  26. newton: I never discounted the logical possibility of unknown designer.

    Logical?

    newton: Unfortunately, those who actual believe in the designer are completely reluctant to take their own belief seriously enough to be at all useful.

    I don’t quite know what you mean…

    newton: For instance, the Virus , is it designed by the big designer? What is the purpose of it , if designed? If not designed, is it not complex?

    I look at it this way:
    Viruses were designed for a purpose (not yet fully known) but our immune system was designed to detect them..
    Just like cancer: our many preventative layers of protection are usually able to deal with cancerous cell and the majority of people never get it…

    newton: You like to speculate about possible motivations of others , try the designer , flesh out the theory, you have a real life instance to put the hypothesis to work.

    I will get you started, design infers purpose which one ? Punishment , apathy, an experiment ,incompetence, a bet with another designer, a disruption in the quantum ?

    You would like to know the motivation of the Designer for design? Or the Creators for creativity? Really? 😎

    Let’s say the Garden of Eden Tree of Life was in the literal sense charged with quantum-energy like fluctuations… Adam and Eve regularly consumed it, and their youth, immune system, anti-cancer, anti-aging was maintained…
    Once that access was cut out, they eventually died…

    newton: If we can narrow down the motivation it might be useful in developing a strategy. ID to the rescue

    How about you? You didn’t totally dismiss a logical inference of ID…
    How about others ?

  27. newton: just three victims, or 0.8% of the total, had no previous pathology.

    Not all pathologies can be detected or known; i.e. pre-diabetes, another virus etc.

    newton: Almost half of the victims suffered from at least three prior illnesses and about a fourth had either one or two previous conditions.

    More than 75% had high blood pressure, about 35% had diabetes and a third suffered from heart disease. “

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

    Almost as I said it earlier to OMagain…😊

    newton: “Among adults age 20 and older in the United States, the following have high blood pressure: – For non-Hispanic whites, 33.4 percent of men and 30.7 percent of women. – For non-Hispanic blacks, 42.6 percent of men and 47.0 percent of women. – For Mexican Americans, 30.1 percent of men and 28.8 percent of women.”

    American Heart Association

    Sobering numbers

    This is not very good news for US….🤔
    Too many people are diabetics or pre-diabetics… obese…etc.
    What if statins could contribute to the problem?

  28. There’s a video circulating the interwebz by an Argentinian doctor who claims Covid-19 gets inactivated at 56ºC. If true, what does that mean wrt a potential remission of the virus outbreak during the summer?

  29. J-Mac: J-Mac
    Ignored on March 21, 2020 at 1:43 pm said:newton: just three victims, or 0.8% of the total, had no previous pathology.

    Not all pathologies can be detected or known; i.e. pre-diabetes, another virus etc.

    Sure, it is possible. It is a small sample. If true that makes this virus much more lethal than the seasonal flu. My daughter works in a NICU, babies do not seem to be at risk so far.

    newton: Almost half of the victims suffered from at least three prior illnesses and about a fourth had either one or two previous conditions.

    More than 75% had high blood pressure, about 35% had diabetes and a third suffered from heart disease. “

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

    Almost as I said it earlier to OMagain…😊

    Good job.

    newton: “Among adults age 20 and older in the United States, the following have high blood pressure: – For non-Hispanic whites, 33.4 percent of men and 30.7 percent of women. – For non-Hispanic blacks, 42.6 percent of men and 47.0 percent of women. – For Mexican Americans, 30.1 percent of men and 28.8 percent of women.”

    American Heart Association

    Sobering numbers

    This is not very good news for US….🤔
    Too many people are diabetics or pre-diabetics… obese…etc.

    Correct

    What if statins could contribute to the problem?

    How?

  30. dazz:
    There’s a video circulating the interwebz by an Argentinian doctor who claims Covid-19 gets inactivated at 56ºC. If true, what does that mean wrt a potential remission of the virus outbreak during the summer?

    If that works out to 132 degrees Fahrenheit for thirty minutes, we are about to see evolution in action.

  31. newton: If that works out to 132 degrees Fahrenheit for thirty minutes, we are about to see evolution in action.

    Care to elaborate, please?

  32. Alan Fox:
    Just heard we have two confirmed cases of Covid-19 in our village (of around 120 inhabitants).

    My eldest daughter works in a Respiratory ward (lucky her!) with its first positive case last night. Youngest is a 3rd year student nurse, who are being asked to join the fight (voluntary, of course, but she feels terrible at saying no, on top of being unable to complete her coursework through fretting).

  33. J-Mac: Almost as I said it earlier to OMagain…

    Said what?

    J-Mac: Would it make you feel better, if I said that young and healthy people have close to 100% survival rate?

    That’s what you said.

    The WHO say the death rate for 10 to 19 years old is 0.2%
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

    Simple question. Is 0.2 less or more then zero? What is 0.2% of the population of the world in that age range?

    In that age range, what proportion of those 0.2 had high blood pressure, diabetes or heart disease? Oh, don’t know? Then STFU with your 100% bs.

    And what’s your point J-Mac? It’ only kills the vulnerable and therefore, what?

    J-Mac: Almost as I said it earlier to OMagain…

    I get it. People like you can never be wrong, about anything. And now people may die.

  34. dazz: Care to elaborate, please?

    If you can survive a summer temperature of 132 f , you have a body plan far beyond most humans.

  35. newton: If true that makes this virus much more lethal than the seasonal flu

    The data is confusing and insufficient to make that call now, I think…
    In healthy population should be the same or lower…

    newton: My daughter works in a NICU, babies do not seem to be at risk so far.

    I didn’t think so… I went to NICU last week and RNs didn’t even acknowledge me… no N95 no gloves…

    newton: How?

    I was trying to figure out how it was established that people with heart disease are at risk… I realized that medications are the first clues…
    So, HBP and cholesterol meds are the ones the give clues to ER & triage staff that someone has heart disease…
    Now, how statins could contribute? If they do, the mechanism should be the clue…
    Since statins don’t prevent CHD, how do they lower cholesterol?
    They can’t lower dietary cholesterol, so they have to block the liver…
    So, this means that statins overwhelm the liver and that could come at the price to the whole organism…
    Just a speculations… 😊

  36. Allan Miller: My eldest daughter works in a Respiratory ward (lucky her!) with its first positive case last night. Youngest is a 3rd year student nurse, who are being asked to join the fight (voluntary, of course, but she feels terrible at saying no, on top of being unable to complete her coursework through fretting).

    She will be wearing full gear… take extra precautions… somebody has to do it…

  37. dazz:
    There’s a video circulating the interwebz by an Argentinian doctor who claims Covid-19 gets inactivated at 56ºC. If true, what does that mean wrt a potential remission of the virus outbreak during the summer?

    Sauna is the solution, perhaps?

  38. J-Mac,
    Please stop it with your speculations.
    Yakking on about the danger posed by statins (which might conceivably help) when the mechanistic link is with RAAS antagonists and ACE2 expression levels only makes you look dumb.

  39. newton: If you can survive a summer temperature of 132 f , you have a body plan far beyond most humans.

    Ouch, I see, thanks.
    So I take it that means the Covid-19 is unusually resilient to high temperatures, if the above 132ºF figure is right… so we’re essentially royally fucked

  40. J-Mac: She will be wearing full gear… take extra precautions… somebody has to do it…

    Hopefully, although the number of medical staff falling ill – and dying – is an obvious concern. If it was your kid …

  41. Allan Miller: Hopefully, although the number of medical staff falling ill – and dying – is an obvious concern. If it was your kid …

    I understand your concern…
    My wife and I face sick patients and hospital staff every day… we take precautions..
    Then, we come home where 2 teens are waiting…
    Is it much different? Probably…

  42. DNA_Jock:
    J-Mac,
    Please stop it with your speculations.
    Yakking on about the danger posed by statins (which might conceivably help) when the mechanistic link is with RAAS antagonists and ACE2 expression levels only makes you look dumb.

    Lol thanks

  43. dazz:
    There’s a video circulating the interwebz by an Argentinian doctor who claims Covid-19 gets inactivated at 56ºC. If true, what does that mean wrt a potential remission of the virus outbreak during the summer?

    I’ve become a bit wary of what ‘doctors’ say on the internet! There’s one guy recommending blowing a hairdryer up your nose … I think the main summer factors are UV light, better diet and less crowding. Temperature will be a factor – RNA half life steadily decreases with increasing temperature – but not the main one.

  44. Allan Miller: My eldest daughter works in a Respiratory ward (lucky her!) with its first positive case last night. Youngest is a 3rd year student nurse, who are being asked to join the fight (voluntary, of course, but she feels terrible at saying no, on top of being unable to complete her coursework through fretting).

    I don’t know what to say other than kudos to your daughters for choosing careers in the caring professions. I just hope the lockdowns begin to work. I did see Wuhan hasn’t had a new case for three days, now.

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