As the COVID 19 hysteria is unfolding almost all over the world, many are asking the question:
Where did the viruses come from?
ID proponents, like Michael Behe, have gone on record saying that viruses were designed, in most cases they cause no harm, but their role in nature is not yet fully understood here.
On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved, because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses? So, viruses must’ve evolved…
While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open, I’m going to focus on the lack of mechanism for viruses to evolve to solve the chicken and egg paradox in this case.
Simply put, viruses can’t replicate on their own and need another organism, like bacteria, to help them to do so…But viruses already contain pieces of DNA or RNA, so the varieties of problems open up, including the chicken and egg paradox.
On the other hand, if viruses are harmful, why the omnipotent natural selection has been slacking off for millions, or billions, of years and not eliminated them, including COVID 19, that has mutated right in front of our eyes, and natural selection failed to see it, again…
Or, another option for natural selection would be to help viruses to evolve to self-replicate, or to evolve some sex organs, as speculated by Allan Miller: Sex – a matter of prospective here.
After all has been discussed on the theme, another chicken and egg paradox will remain in the theory of evolution:
What came first?
Virus with bits of pieces of DNA or RNA? Or DNA or RNA worlds? But, the latter would need some kind of a metabolism world first, which leads to another, separate chicken and egg paradox that the theory of evolution is just full of it…😉
But getting a viable vaccine in sufficient quantity is going to take months at least.
I don’t think that a ‘lock down’ has been touted as being a route to viral elimination and if it has that notion is misguided. The goal of a ‘lockdown’ is to allow the health care system to not be overwhelmed and promote time for treatment options to arise, e.g., vaccine and antiviral therapeutics.
There are, and there will be many, many conspiracy theories…
One of my favorite ones is that initially, many governments thought COVID 19 was overblown, because 46.000 people die from “seasonal flu” each year in US alone, Including the other coronaviruses.
But, the hysteria had already spread, so now the governments will use this opportunity to see how far they can go to restrict the freedoms and liberties based on the hysteria, so that they can use it later on as a weapon to topple undesirable governments, organizations etc…
No, that’s just me asking. Why do you say it is misguided? Is it fated not to work under a perfect lock-down?
I get that, really. It would be a bonus if the virus spread could be halted rather than slowed.
That is correct. Which is why sociail distancing and all other precautionary regiimes will need to be vigilent for months and months not days or weeks. As soon as lockdowns are rescinded the virus will surge once again. Isolation is the only route for buyin time and everyone the world over needs to come to grips that this, social distancing, must persist up and until a vaccine or reliable treatments are developed.
DNA_Jock,
Why don’t you start by explaining the mechanism of evolution of viruses… that is, if you haven’t forgotten the theme of the OP yet..🤗
Since I already know you don’t have a good argument, don’t make me read a bad one…😅
I say it is misguided (touting viral elimination via social distancing) because complete success would/could only work in small populations. Once that population is open to an influx of ‘outsiders’ itis open to reinfection. Even with authoritarion regimes and extreme lockdown viral spread continues. Perfect lockdown is an unattainable pipe dream. the better it is implimented the more time cna be bought but days and weeks won’t do it we need months and months of isolation to buy the time necessary for vaccine development.
How effective are the vaccines, really ? In Canada, I think, the flu vaccine turned out to be effective only for senior citizens and only in nursing homes…
nope something you missed with your self-admitted propensity to skim read and thus miss key aspects of anything anybody writes.
effective enough to eliminate smallpox from the face fo the earth (outside archived samples in various govt storage) virtual elimination of measles infections outside of the antivaccination liars where the disease presists in continued infections. Vaccines are extremely effective in disease prevention.
there is no differenc in immunity derived from vaccines versus wild=type disease infection. The plus side of vacines you don’t get to expereince the full ramifications of the disease.
J-Mac,
F factor
😉
What about favipiravir? This might help reduce deaths among the most vulnerable in the interim.
News is both China and South Korean have reported an increase in number of infections.
Maybe best hope is it is temperature sensitive to give more time
This is wrong at many levels:
1. There was only one proponent of the Darwinian theory of evolution: Darwin. He could not have known anything about viruses. Not in the radar back then.
2. Evolutionary biologists, if that’s what J-Mac meant, would not propose that viruses evolved because an omnipotent god would not design such nasty beasts. I’d think that creationists who believe in a magical being in the sky would proppse that tye evolved, but not scientists.
3. Viruses must have evolved, of course, because they cannot have existed forever.
If that were true, though it seems it isn’t true. that would mean that we don’t know how viruses evolved. I really cannot understand why would our ignorance about how it happened would mean that it didn’t happen. That’d be twisted, pretty stupid, logic.
So?
Because natural selection is not omnipotent J-Mac. Natural selection is, ahem,. natural you idiot! You’re shooting yourself in the foot, yet again. Remember that it’s your imaginary friend who’s imagined to be omnipotent.
Natural selection doesn’t favour anybody or any life form. Natural selection is not there to help us out. Natural selection just happens. Whatever can replicate, replicates. So, if some piece of DNA/RNA/etc can take advantage of a host and replicate, well, it will replicate. It’s too simple.
No you idiot. Natural selection is not a thinking being. It’s a set of phenomena. It doesn’t decide what to do next. Again, you’re projecting from your religious beliefs and shooting yourself in the foot. Hosts are available out there for the viruses to replicate. That’s the path of least resistance.
So what? Do you really think that, in order for evolution to be correct, we, simple humans, need to have all the answers to satisfy imbeciles who cannot even understand that evolution is natural phenomena? That it doesn’t have favourites of “chosen ones”? Idiots who project their religious beliefs onto natural phenomena, rather than try and understand the phenomena? No idiot. Evolution happened for eons before we appeared in the scene. We’re not necessary for it to continue. It is a natural phenomenon. It doesn’t need our full understanding to go on. It just goes on, independent of our desires, wants, and beliefs. So, stop projecting and grow up already. You’re not a chosen one (your stupidity should be enough of a clue). Neither is any of us.
I read that also and Hong Kong and Singapore are also seeing a fresh ‘wave’ of infections once they relaxed isolation protocols.
Hopefully, heat sensitivity will apply to this virus although there is no data to suggest that is the case. Seems to be spreading fine in the Southern latitudes despite it beig their ‘summer time’
M. Osterholm, who worked on MERS, found that respiratory virus, mers, had no problem spreading in 110F temps. He isn’t so optimistic on a break in transmission during summer but hopes that will be the case. If it does occur there will likely be a renewed surge in the Fall.
On seasonal fluctuation, there doesn’t seem to be a consensus on causes. I’m inclined to think that all theories have a bit of truth (apart from fringe crap like 5G of course!). UV light (both directly viricidal and elevating vitamin D), temperature, humidity, crowding, fresher food with less processing … all, in their different ways, are likely to act together to push replication below the magic threshold of 1.0 new infections per, by reducing virus survival, boosting the immune system and reducing transmission opportunity.
Of course, It’s always ‘flu season’, the tide just sloshes between hemispheres annually. Which is the problem: it might go away for the summer, but it’ll be back.
On the origin of viruses, there are transposons that manufacture a protein coat, even though they don’t go outside. It’s not certain they are incipient viruses rather than ‘domesticated’ ones, but that’s how I incline. I don’t think they are former free-living organisms.
Without viruses there would have been no human evolution. Apes wouldn’t ever even have become apes. Without viruses there would be even less evidence for common descent.
How about people staying more indoors? Having more of sedentary lifestyle? Eating and drinking too much calories and therefore preventing autophogy?
That’s the only sentence that I’d change. I’d delete the “even.”
It looks like this book is another Human Error by Lence…😉
Or chloroquine? Etc. lots of meds being tested.
Any theory has to also deal with periodicity in the tropics. The first is a factor (rainy season correlation); I’d be less convinced by the others.
Yup, common descent is soooo suspect – those techniques that investigate the virus’s origin and phylogeny through mutations being based on things that don’t work and all.
No paternity test for you Mr. Virus!
In what way is this any different from what an Italian might say?
I really need to get my eyes checked. Pope Coitus?
They don’t seem to be trading on the stock market here in the U.S. Where can i invest?
To me It isn’t any different. I think it is a case of looking through a rosier lens with crossed fingers up until the ‘oh shit’ moment the systems, health care and financial security, are overwhelmed.
Well, the experiment is running.
I see press reports that the situation in China is much improved.
Depends on which Italians you ask. Those elected to make decisions or those living with the consequences.
ETA and dying.
Yep. They’re being reinfected by returnees though. They are being suitably cautious.
I would have thought compulsory quarantine with testing would take care of that problem.
In a health system working above limits, any break would be helpful.
” CDC estimates that anywhere from 151,700 to 575,400 people died worldwide from H1N1 during the first year the virus circulated. In the United States from 2009 to 2010, the CDC estimates that between 43.3 and 89.3 million people were infected, between 195,086 and 402,719 were hospitalized and between 8,868 and 18,306 people died during the H1N1 pandemic. “
I’ve never heard that…
How is that related exactly?
I’ve overheard the head Dr. of the ICU referring to the Italian Paradox: e.i. it is currently not really known why Italy is so hard hit by COVID 19…
Which makes compliance of the population at large with isolation protocols so important. Suppression of the rate of infection is all that we currently have on hand to combat the ‘iinvisible enemy’ and can only be accomplished by extreme social distancing.
My wife just told me the inside scoop:
Many Drs. who return from travels, including the HOT DESTINATIONS, are faced with two issues:
1. They need to return to work or people will die (there is no one to cover)
2. They insist on returning to work because they don’t want to lose $.
There are few cases where health workers were told they HAVE TO RETURN TO WORK AFTER ABROAD TRAVELS regardless what the governments said publicly…
Also, in Italy, the rapid expansion of the COVID 19 was blamed on sloppiness:
1. People with coronavirus and broken legs were transferred in the same ambulances without proper sterilization
2. Italy has 2nd oldest world population in the world
Does anybody buy it?
News today , millennials are ending up in the hospital too. It is not just the boomers.
Buy what? Are you suggesting none of that is true and there’s some sort of conspiracy?
Are you aware that people returning from destinations where COVID-19 is widely spread should go into quarantine for two weeks (government requirements) ?
Why would a Dr, who came back from Italy, be allowed to work with patients in the oncology department?
Also, are people buying WHY Italy is so hard hit?
Do millennials have underlying diseases? Diabetes? Alcoholism? Drug abuse?
Even anxiety DO?
Apparently a scapegoat has been found.
link doesn’t work on this end
Of course , as far as my experience goes from being the father of one, millennials are much like other humans, diverse. My impression was even the reasonably healthy can end up in the hospital.
If he was tested and quarantined found healthy , people are still getting cancer and need treatments and oncologists are even normal times are in short supply.
What about the incubation period?
Much of the work oncologist do can be done online, over the phone…as it is done without outbreaks…
Many radiologist hardly show up in DIs, if at all…
Alan,
The link doesn’t work for me either…
I fixed Alan’s link