As the COVID 19 hysteria is unfolding almost all over the world, many are asking the question:
Where did the viruses come from?
ID proponents, like Michael Behe, have gone on record saying that viruses were designed, in most cases they cause no harm, but their role in nature is not yet fully understood here.
On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved, because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses? So, viruses must’ve evolved…
While I’d like to keep all options for discussion open, I’m going to focus on the lack of mechanism for viruses to evolve to solve the chicken and egg paradox in this case.
Simply put, viruses can’t replicate on their own and need another organism, like bacteria, to help them to do so…But viruses already contain pieces of DNA or RNA, so the varieties of problems open up, including the chicken and egg paradox.
On the other hand, if viruses are harmful, why the omnipotent natural selection has been slacking off for millions, or billions, of years and not eliminated them, including COVID 19, that has mutated right in front of our eyes, and natural selection failed to see it, again…
Or, another option for natural selection would be to help viruses to evolve to self-replicate, or to evolve some sex organs, as speculated by Allan Miller: Sex – a matter of prospective here.
After all has been discussed on the theme, another chicken and egg paradox will remain in the theory of evolution:
What came first?
Virus with bits of pieces of DNA or RNA? Or DNA or RNA worlds? But, the latter would need some kind of a metabolism world first, which leads to another, separate chicken and egg paradox that the theory of evolution is just full of it…😉
It us hard to explain viruses in any other way than assuming they evolved from free-living organisms and lost their superfluous metabolism when they became parasitic.
And compliments to J-Mac for correct plural of virus! 😉
France is in complete lock-down and all non-essential contact between citizens has been discouraged on pain of a fine of 135€. If the incubation time for the virus is 15 days, should it not disappear completely after this time? Why not?
Alan,
Off the top of my head:
1. Some people will violate the order.
2. Some people will spread the virus via essential contact.
3. Even with social distancing, the virus can spread via surfaces.
A bit confused , only a hypothesis that proposes the probable designer is incapable of evil would have that issue. Evolution has no need of that hypothesis.
ID ,on the other hand, cannot rule out the possibility of such a designer. No ID proponent, as far as I know, claims that a deadly virus demonstrates support evolution, maybe that God punishing man but not the validity of evolution.
Do you believe the designer is all good?
Sound like a big-budget science fiction movie with the story that goes nowhere…😉
Nothing new…😊
You underestimate the social cohesion here. It’s like night and day.
Undoubtedly though testing health professionals on the front line should minimise that problem.
Only if you touch them and then touch your face before washing your hands. And people have to be about in public spaces for that to be a problem.
But my question was why, if the measures prevent spread of infection, will the virus not disappear after the incubation time for the last infectees has passed?
Try to read it again…
J-Mac,
Well, where do you think viruses originated?
Viruses don’t reproduce ,the designer is constantly designing replacements so it only appears that way.
J-Mac,
That’s a bit dismissive, considering! 😉
A well know virologist says it’s too late…
Looking for his video…
newton,
On est foutu quand-même!
We’re doomed, then!
Please don’t bother on my account. I won’t watch it. Post a summary.
Is there one piece of evidence to support your notion?
“We don’t know why, how and when” is not evidence, you know…
The summary is isolation will not work. It’s just a measure to give people something to do when there is none…
Well, let France be the cobaye then.
You are thinking fro the perspective of the host not the pathogen….big mistake!
as with other parasites all that matters, from an evolutionary perspective, is to pass the virus on to another host before the host dies. This virus, and many others, are quite successful at doing this. So in light of that why would natural selection eliminate the virus? It appears that natural selection has done its job in this case. The host pool has expanded from animals to now include humans. The new host, humans, don’t die before passing the virus to another host. Seems like evolution is doing just fine in this case…unfortunate for humans but a success from the virus perspective.
4. reports of the virus persisting in humans for >5 weeks. (preliminary but that hypothesis is out there with some supporting data)
viruses seem quite optimized for their continued existence. Doesn’t appear to be any need for ‘help’ in viral replication. Plenty of hosts available with all the biochemical pathways required for their replication.
This spread of the coronavirus, as M. Osterholm notes, is in the initial phase of a ‘coronavirus winter’. This isn’t going to last days or weeks but rather months and months up until a vaccine is developed. Until then it will be a case of any individual acquiring immunity or dying once infected and everyone is going to get infected. We can slow the spread and buy time for vaccine or therapeutic regiment development but we aren’t going to eliminate it by social distancing.
Someone else cautiously admitted that if we try to contain it too quickly, it will backfire later on…
Reason: large populations need to be exposed to develop immunity…
ETA: Viruses continue to mutate and the 8-10% difference now from known coronavirus will be 15% or more next time around…
Paucity of data is the vacuum for speculation. Extend the quarantine for the necessary incubation period, keeping borders closed and subjecting new arrivals to quarantine. Too Draconian? Too expensive? Is China through the worst?
Oh, I know, flatten the curve, herd immunity. Anyway there are different approaches so it’s quite a good experiment.
And? What’s your point, if you have one?
So is social distancing a complete waste of time or is there something to be said for reducing the impact on health facilities?
Alan,
You need to relax…
I can feel you anxiety over 7, 000 kilometers or so…
Anxiety lowers your immunity…
You only have one life…
I stopped paying attention to the hysteria a while back… I sleep like a log… 9 hours or so… unheard of…😊
Alan,
It needs to be longer than that. The illness doesn’t begin until the incubation period has passed.
Ok
“On the other hand, the proponents of Darwinian theory of evolution claim that viruses evolved “
True.
“because why would an omnipotent God/ID designed something harmful, like viruses?
Two issues ,omnipotent designer could be evil, the argument makes no sense; second, the attributes unicorns or designers are not part of the justifications of evolution., so it does not follow therefore evolution.
So, viruses must’ve evolved…
It is like saying cars have wheels therefore it is raining.
Unless … means everyone should realize this argument is meant to be bs so no one should take it seriously . In which case , sorry. I misread. Should have done the smiley 😃
How much longer? If there’s no new infection and people either die or recover, where can the virus hide?
Unless the magic words ID is uttered first.
I’m relaxed but if the situation has to be extended I will become less relaxed.
Jeanne d’Arc saved you once, though it did not work out too well for her.
newton,
Who’s to say it wasn’t a myth? Not as if there’s much evidence. 😉
ETA it’s not as if there”s anything on Wikipedia! Oh wait…
I expect that person was not living with someone undergoing chemotherapy.
reading comprehension difficulties, jmac?
Alan,
Long enough that the infected folks are no longer contagious.
I addressed that in my post. Buy time for vaccine development and/or new therapeutics for treatment. As well as not overwhelming health facilities. It would be desirable to have a respirator available if you were to need one at some point.
You don’t know either, then.
MANY health insurance companies have free travel specials for people over 65 years old to Venice, Rome and Vatican. Free breakfast, lunch the Last Supper included..😉
I’m at that vulnerable age but at least here there is a reasonably well-equipped health and social security system
True… but it was more of a statement for general public.
People undergoing chemo, and their family, need to take precautions regardless…
J-Mac,
That’s a great idea! Fill all the cruise ships with the vulnerable and infected and send them off on a long voyage. Not sure about the ethics though.
Pope Callixtus III
Natural selection has no ethics.. (not my words).
Alan,
The point is that it has to be longer than the incubation period.
ETA: I’m talking about the entire duration of your scheme.
provided no secondary (resevoir) hosts are present for the virus to hide. Smallpox was able to be eliminated, via vaccination, because there are no known secondary hosts. Polio could similarily be eliminated if vaccination were complete enough in the human population. Diseases such as rabies and cholera (vibrio) have secondary resevoirs and can repeatedly infect the human population.
What are you referring to? Something you were thinking but forgot to write? 😉
Unless humans are involved in the decisions
PeterP,
Pangolins are rare in France. I did hear bats were a possibility as carriers but I’m not sure how the virus could transfer to humans (or to bats). I’m really just asking if the lock-down has a chance of working so long as the length of quarantine exceeds the incubation period. Is it likely that human asymptomatic carriers will preserve the virus and reinfect the general population?
“Flattening the curve” is the difference between an overwhelmed healthcare system with thousands of preventable deaths, versus a “bad ‘flu season”-type outcome.
Regarding J-Mac’s whacky ideas re virus origins and evolution, I am waiting for him to articulate what he thinks the problem is.
Viruses are an absolutely kick-ass demonstration of the power of natural selection. If you believe in Design, otoh, they present something of a problem. Especially if you believe in a TriOmni Deity…
My money would be on transposable elements.
sounds like one of your nitwit source claims. How could quick containment backfire?
and along with that comes a very large number of deaths. At least a 60% population exposure would be required to even begin to slow the viral infections. In the USA that would equate to roughly 1.5-2 million deaths…or more.
vaccine-mediated herd immunity is a much preferable route.
That is an encouraging fact for us to bear in mind.