Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

4,190 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. There is a good reason why the criminally insane belong in a mental institution rather than on death row – they’re not aware that their decisions are criminal. The hope is that someone normal (not little monkeys and the insane) reads this and thinks: “Indeed, why on earth do we let the criminally insane corrupt and generally worthless politicians decide to endorse odious crimes such as baby killing in the name of the people?”

  2. Oh. Yeah. I also noticed that

    Nonlin.org:
    WTF insanity!

    is the perfect ending for a comment where the word “killing” was abused to mean abortion. I didn’t mention it because the fact that every third word was “satanist” portrayed the mental state of the commenter well enough.

  3. Entropy:
    Oh. Yeah. I also noticed that

    is the perfect ending for a comment where the word “killing” was abused to mean abortion. I didn’t mention it because the fact that every third word was “satanist” portrayed the mental state of the commenter well enough.

    We are, however, being treated to a valuable insight into the mindset of the criminally insane.

  4. Phoodoo remarked to me in another thread:

    Wow, [E. Macron] hooked you up quicker than an Israeli soldier taking potshots at Palestinian toddlers!

    Rather an odd non sequitur, even by phoodoo’s standards. Is he complaining that I’m waffling on about getting vaccinated while ignoring the plight of Palestinian toddlers (do we agree with the age range of one to four years old?) being killed by pot-shot-taking Israeli soldiers? It seems children in or close to crowds protesting against the treatment of Palestinians by Israeli occupying forces do run a real risk of death or serious injury.

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1080402

    The Israeli Security Forces announced that they would conduct an investigation into Abu Aliya’s killing. The human rights experts noted, however, that investigations by the Israeli Defense Forces of fatal shootings of Palestinians by its soldiers rarely result in appropriate accountability.

    Civil society organizations have documented the deaths of 155 Palestinian children by Israeli Security Forces using live ammunition or crowd-control weapons since 2013, the experts added. Only three indictments on criminal charges have been issued for offences directly tied to those killings.

    In one case, the charges were dropped; the responsible soldier reached a plea deal and was sentenced to nine months jail for death by negligence; and in the third, a soldier was convicted of not obeying orders and sentenced to one month in military prison.

    Seven children (youngsters under 18 presumably) died last year killed by Israeli soldiers. I haven’t checked how many were toddlers.

  5. phoodoo:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPucNC2AGuU

    USA! USA! USA! Nobody tackles senile senior citizens better than the stars and stripes!

    Just another normal day in the heartland.

    Seems like it is recorded on police body cam, do Chinese police wear body cams which can be obtained by the victims of alleged police misconduct, and then posted to the media?

  6. newton,

    They have something even better than police body cams-the public. Policeman don’t act like this. Not only do I know from experience, I know because of how people feel about the police in their country. They aren’t hated, they aren’t feared, they are respected. Police talk to people. If there is a problem they ask the person to sit on the ground. Guns aren’t involved, knives aren’t involved, handcuffs aren’t involved. Instead things are discussed.

    So don’t talk about stuff you don’t know about in order to perversely try to justify the unjustifiable.

    You can always come up with some exceptional situation which is not ideal-but this is not the case in America. Behaviors like this are not exceptions by US police force. They are routine. Commonplace. And the greatest evidence for this is how people feel about their own police. If you are telling me you like the police in the US. You like when they drive behind you. You like if they come and ask you questions, or when they want to know what’s up, because it makes you feel safer, I say you are full of shit. I have plenty of experience with this. I know what goes on with police in the US and in many other countries. No country comes even close to how bad it is in America. Its destroying your country.

    If you keep believing all the American exceptionalism propaganda you are fed every day, you will remain very ignorant of the world.

  7. phoodoo: They have something even better than police body cams-the public. Policeman don’t act like this. Not only do I know from experience, I know because of how people feel about the police in their country. They aren’t hated, they aren’t feared, they are respected. Police talk to people. If there is a problem they ask the person to sit on the ground. Guns aren’t involved, knives aren’t involved, handcuffs aren’t involved. Instead things are discussed.

    Sounds great. Here in my part of rural France, the police are all but invisible.

  8. newton: Seems like it is recorded on police body cam, do Chinese police wear body cams which can be obtained by the victims of alleged police misconduct, and then posted to the media?

    I watched the video linked and I find it amazing that the police officers were not at all restrained in their heavy-handedness when being recorded.

  9. Alan Fox,

    The fact that the police will act like this EVEN when they know they have a body camera on tells you all you need to know about the police in the US. Its not a few bad apples. Its the entire system. They KNOW they can act with impunity and nothing will happen to them. Their captain will watch it and say, “Well, she WAS resisting. She might have had a weapon. Police work is dangerous you can never be too careful. We don’t want our men in blue to be in danger!” Because they are colossal pussies. Their number one priority is ALWAYS protecting themselves from any perceived threat from a six year old with a balloon, to an old lady with dementia. Can’t be too careful, when you are a bunch of scared shitless pussies who would love to take their insecurities out on a helpless sap, so they can validate to themselves that they aren’t total worthless cowards afraid of anything that moves. Did you hear him brag on the radio how he had subdued the 73 year old 100 pound lady, after a brief scuffle…?

    Its been this way for decades in America.

  10. phoodoo: Its been this way for decades in America.

    And even so I’d be unwilling to swap for China’s version where people sit down when told to by the police, if the price of that is a million people in concentration camps where rape and sterilization are normalised.

    phoodoo: Their number one priority is ALWAYS protecting themselves from any perceived threat from a six year old with a balloon, to an old lady with dementia. Can’t be too careful, when you are a bunch of scared shitless pussies who would love to take their insecurities out on a helpless sap, so they can validate to themselves that they aren’t total worthless cowards afraid of anything that moves.

    One wonders then why China is so scared of an ethnic minority. By your own words and their behavior, they are also gutless and scared.

    Scared of children, China, a world superpower, is putting those children with the wrong ethnicity in concentration camps in 2021…….

    phoodoo: Policeman don’t act like this. Not only do I know from experience, I know because of how people feel about the police in their country. They aren’t hated, they aren’t feared, they are respected. Police talk to people. If there is a problem they ask the person to sit on the ground. Guns aren’t involved, knives aren’t involved, handcuffs aren’t involved. Instead things are discussed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HewdpLIaG3Q

    Yeah, unless that discussion is about democracy and human rights, then out come the sticks……

  11. phoodoo: Its been this way for decades in America.

    And it’s now that way in Hong Kong.

    That video I linked, I did not see anybody asking anybody to sit down nicely and have a discussion. I saw a police state stamping down. And I’m sure you won’t have a problem with that, after all all those terrorists have to be resisted!

    Have you ever read 1984 phoodoo? Does the department you work for treat that as a manual instead of a warning?

  12. newton: Seems like it is recorded on police body cam, do Chinese police wear body cams which can be obtained by the victims of alleged police misconduct, and then posted to the media?

    phoodoo? Did you miss that question? Perhaps that’s why people sit down when told, as they know if they don’t there will be no consequences for the police for what happens because of their disobedience.

    Perhaps when you’ve seen your neighbours dragged away for ‘re-education’ you stop resisting so much.

    But yes, they do wear body cams. But China being China they are facial recognition enabled to enable them to track down ‘terrorists’.

    https://www.scmp.com/tech/china-tech/article/2131856/chinese-police-testing-body-cameras-720-degree-field-view-inbuilt

    As to if the footage is available to right wrongs, phoodoo? Any ideas?

  13. phoodoo: Its been this way for decades in America.

    I’m not in a position to judge, never having set foot in the United States. It should be for those who live there and the US government to seek ways to improve things. I’m honestly puzzled why you think I can have a useful opinion on US domestic issues. Of course I can react to news stories and say something like “terrible if true” but I have no influence.

    Equally I condemn the suppression of democracy in Hong Kong but I doubt I have much influence there, nor in Russia, nor in Myanmar.

    ETA nor in Israel, Chad, Brazil…

  14. Alan Fox: I’m honestly puzzled why you think I can have a useful opinion on US domestic issues

    I am honestly puzzled why you think I think you have a useful opinion on US domestic issues? Did I ask you your opinion about this, or did I tell you how it is?

    By the way, how many times have you been to China? I assume you have no useful opinions on their domestic issues, right? That’s why you never give them, isn’t that so? I mean, you are surely as equally uninformed as O’magain right?

  15. phoodoo: That’s why you never give them, isn’t that so? I mean, you are surely as equally uninformed as O’magain right?

    What have I said that is untrue?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-22278037

    Is the BBC also uninformed?

    Human rights groups believe China has detained more than a million Uighurs over the past few years in what the state defines as “re-education camps”.

    There is evidence of Uighurs being used as forced labour and of women being forcibly sterilised.

    The US is among several countries to have accused China of committing genocide and crimes against humanity through its repression of the Uighurs.

    What about AlJazerra?
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/19/chinas-treatment-of-uighurs-is-crimes-against-humanity-report

    Europe?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/28/outraged-by-uighur-genocide-europe-picks-a-fight-with-china-and-loses

    Worldwide retailers?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56519411

    Retail giants Nike and H&M are facing a backlash in China after they expressed concern about the alleged use of Uighur forced labour in cotton production.

    The AP?
    https://apnews.com/article/occasions-ap-top-news-international-news-prayer-weddings-9ca1c29fc9554c1697a8729bba4dd93b

    Overseas Uighurs said the “visits” to their relatives’ homes often lasted longer than five days, and they were closely monitored the whole time. The cadres would ask their family members where they were going and who they were meeting whenever they wanted to leave the house.

    “They couldn’t pray,” said Abduzahir Yunus, a 23-year-old Uighur originally from Urumqi, Xinjiang’s capital. “Praying or even having a Quran at home could endanger the whole family.”

    Turkey: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/25/turkey-says-conveyed-sensitivity-about-uighurs-to-china

    Many British MPs: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56540279

    More goverments: https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-china/news/despite-china-threats-lithuania-moves-to-recognise-uighur-genocide/

    The letter came only after Šakalienė proposed to draft a resolution in the Lithuanian parliament on the persecution of Uighurs and other minorities in China.

    The US, Canada, and the Netherlands have described Beijing’s actions against its citizens in Xinjiang province as genocide.

    So if I’m uninformed, I’m in good company.

  16. phoodoo: Not only do I know from experience, I know because of how people feel about the police in their country. They aren’t hated, they aren’t feared, they are respected. Police talk to people. If there is a problem they ask the person to sit on the ground. Guns aren’t involved, knives aren’t involved, handcuffs aren’t involved. Instead things are discussed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China

    Yes, indeed. No police has ever killed anyone in China. And those are just the killings we know about. So it’s simply not true that “police talk to people” only. Sometimes they kill them too, just like your hated USA. What happens there happens in China too, you are just paid to pretend it does not.

    It’s just a matter of scale. And on that scale we can also add genocide, and then that would seem to tip the balance against China when we compare it to the USA.

    Here are the people who have been shot to death by police by race: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    But those numbers pale into a rounding error if we compare:

    The situation is much, much worse than what is being reported. The Uyghur people have disappeared. Death is everywhere right now.”

    These are the words of Dr Erkin Sidick, a Uyghur American who is the President of the Uyghur Projects Foundation and senior advisor to the World Uyghur Congress.

    He claims that the total number of Uyghur detainees in camps in China and those presumed dead now exceeds the total number of Jews detained and killed during the Holocaust – an allegation that dwarfs previous reports on China’s ‘demographic genocide’ in Xinjiang, or what was once East Turkestan.

    “This isn’t indoctrination, it’s eradication,” says Sidick.

    Sidick believes that reports in the international media about the situation in Xinjiang are essentially two years behind current realities on the ground.

    https://bylinetimes.com/2020/08/24/death-is-everywhere-millions-more-uyghurs-missing/
    Millions missing, presumed dead. Millions more in camps. And yet phoodoo is defending this as legitimate! They must have done something to deserve it, phoodoo says.

  17. phoodoo: You have no idea what you are even talking about. All Uighurs aren’t in jail for crying out loud. The people who are jailed are suspected of conspiring to do terrorist harm. They don’t jail people because they are Uighurs or Muslims. But again, when you try to make excuses for the US violations when they outweigh EVERY other countries on the planet, how can you turn that around to claim it is I who is trying to spin the truth?

    So there are millions of people “suspected of conspiring to do terrorist harm” are there? And that justifies what the world is calling genocide? And you are happy to go along with that……

    Also, does China imprison people on a suspicion then? Don’t they deserve a trial to see if they can turn that suspicion into actual evidence?

    If all all Uighurs are not in jail, and only the ones who are are suspected of consipiring to cause such harm what is that number according to phoodoo?

    10?
    100?
    1000?
    10000?

    What, according to phoodoo, is the current number of Uighurs in jail. Dare you answer?

    I can look up court records in the USA. They are often open. I can see the trial transcripts and indeed videos. Do you have similar for the cases where you believe Uighurs are being held legitimately?

    It’s not that I don’t believe you, or anything, it’s just you are easily fooled by people like Uri Geller so I’d rather go directly to a primary source.

    Once again: What, according to phoodoo, is the current number of Uighurs in jail. Dare you answer?

  18. phoodoo

    I wasn’t clear. I meant I have no useful advice to offer in solving situations abroad where I have no influence. As OM points out, the news media are full of stories of events that are deplorable if true.

    I also fail to see where the “what-about”-ism gets us.

  19. Alan Fox: I also fail to see where the “what-about”-ism gets us.

    I suspect it gets phoodoo paid. Why else deny the obvious?

  20. OMagain: I suspect it gets phoodoo paid. Why else deny the obvious?

    Well, I wouldn’t know about that. What strikes me is there seems some expectance of a hierarchy of outrage. As if I can’t both be shocked by Chauvin’s blank face as he chokes the life out of George Floyd and by the treatment of inconvenient minorities by oppressive governments.

  21. Alan Fox: I wasn’t clear. I meant I have no useful advice to offer in solving situations abroad where I have no influence.

    Were you being asked for some?

  22. Alan Fox: I also fail to see where the “what-about”-ism gets u

    How are we to explain why you keep doing it then?

    Senility?

  23. Alan Fox: As if I can’t both be shocked by Chauvin’s blank face as he chokes the life out of George Floyd and by the treatment of inconvenient minorities by oppressive governments.

    If you were representing a country like China and what it’s doing to minorities, it’s likely the least-worst tactic you have available.

    If we are to oppose what happened to George Floyd we are also required, I think, to oppose what is happening in China, millions of boots on necks at once choking the life out an undesirable minority.

  24. phoodoo: How are we to explain why you keep doing it then?

    Senility?

    Can you give an example of what you claim here? Just a link would do. Or is evidence of your claims, like the evidence of terrorism to put people in camps, simply not important to you?

  25. It would also be informative, phoodoo, if you were to answer how many Uighurs are currently detained in China?

    If it’s not millions, then what is it?

  26. Alan Fox: Why do you post news items such as incidents of brutality if not to get a reaction?

    Careful, if you challenge phoodoo too much he’ll label you a stalker and start linking to pictures of knives. Cowards run away, every time.

  27. Alan Fox:
    phoodoo,

    Why do you post news items such as incidents of brutality if not to get a reaction?

    You mean to get a whataboutism? Because that’s what you do?

    And then you complain about the whataboutisms you make?

    Funny stuff Alan.

  28. https://ipac.global/uk-parliament-unanimously-declares-the-chinese-government-is-committing-a-genocide-against-uyghurs-in-historic-first/

    The House of Commons has unanimously declared that Uyghurs and other minorities in the Xinjiang region are victims of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, the first time a motion declaring genocide has been passed unopposed in the British parliament. The UK joins the US, Canada and the Netherlands in having made formal declarations of a genocide taking place against Uyghurs.

    I guess they are uninformed too. Or perhaps the uninformed one is you, phoodoo, consuming nothing except state propaganda….

  29. Remember when I was talking about what an asshole Bill Gates is before everyone else was?

    Something else I was right about.

  30. phoodoo:
    Remember when I was talking about what an asshole Bill Gates is before everyone else was?

    About giving half his wealth away? I recall something, yes.

    Something else I was right about.

    Well, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein is the subject of much speculation. What else were you right about, by the way?

  31. I also recall Alan refusing to condemn the genocidal apartheid regime of Israel, saying that Israel just needs to spend more money on education in his estimation…

  32. phoodoo:
    I also recall Alan refusing to condemn the genocidal apartheid regime of Israel, saying that Israel just needs to spend more money on education in his estimation…

    I recall saying the Israeli government should invest money and effort in negotiation. I don’t recall “refusing to condemn”. A citation would be useful.

  33. phoodoo: Great.Show where you have condemned them?

    I thought the claim was that I was “refusing to condemn”? So, now, anything short of an unsolicited explicit statement regarding policies and actions of the current Israeli government is “refusing to condemn” them.

    Notwithstanding, I think the current situation is shameful and, I suspect largely driven by Netanyahu’s need to remain prime minister to avoid being jailed on corruption charges. It’s also more than unfortunate the four years of Trump meant the US government (personified by the laughable Jared Kushner) being complicit in enabling him. I hope Biden sees the folly of pretending to be an honest broker and I regret that the EU is so spineless, divided and self-interested not to take a moral stand. Doesn’t excuse the Palestinian leadership from exacerbating and exploiting the situation when there have been opportunities that could have led to progress. The Troubles in Ireland eventually came to an end via a political solution that most could live with. I only hope someone with vision and influence can try building something along the Irish Good Friday Agreement model.

  34. Alan Fox: Doesn’t excuse the Palestinian leadership from exacerbating and exploiting the situation when there have been opportunities that could have led to progress

    Oh shame on you Alan.

    That’s as reprehensible a statement as claiming the US slaves were partly to blame for their situation, because you know, they sometimes didn’t listen when they were told to pick cotton, so of course they needed to be beaten. They were exploiting their situation!

    Disgusting Alan.

  35. phoodoo: That’s as reprehensible a statement as claiming the US slaves were partly to blame for their situation, because you know, they sometimes didn’t listen when they were told to pick cotton, so of course they needed to be beaten. They were exploiting their situation!

    Disagree. The current Palestinian leadership Hamas would gain much support internationally if they showed some willingness to negotiate. The way things are going, Netanyahu will get re-elected and the conflict will continue and support for the Palestinian cause will weaken further. That is a shame.

  36. Alan Fox: The current Palestinian leadership Hamas would gain much support internationally if they showed some willingness to negotiate. The way things are going, Netanyahu will get re-elected and the conflict will continue and support for the Palestinian cause will weaken further. That is a shame.

    I worry that Hamas is hoping to take advantage of Israel’s outsized response in order to radicalize more Palestinians. Although there’s more international sympathy for Palestinians now than there ever has been in my lifetime, I am not sure if Hamas is any more interested in peaceful resolution than Netanyahu is.

  37. Kantian Naturalist: I am not sure if Hamas is any more interested in peaceful resolution than Netanyahu is.

    Indeed. I can’t help making comparisons with the Irish Troubles. There, the intransigence was exacerbated by the UK gov being perceived as partisan (though I suspect they would have been happy to facilitate a united Ireland to save the cost of fighting it) and US pressure was enough to get all parties round a table. Trouble is there’s no equivalent block (it could be the EU but… they’ve shown themselves completely disunited) that has enough clout to get the US to exert its influence productively.

  38. Was in Manhattan last Thursday.

    Thousands of Chinese were marching down 42nd street, protesting the harvesting of organs from Chinese dissenters. None of them looked like Republicans..

    I suspect you didn’t see this on CNN.

  39. I too was in Manhattan, and saw hundreds of Chinese protesters on 42nd street. But that was back in January, so I suspect media coverage is somewhat light these days.
    Oh, January 2020.

  40. Kantian Naturalist: I worry that Hamas is hoping to take advantage of Israel’s outsized response in order to radicalize more Palestinians.

    You think it requires Hamas for more Palestinains to be outarged by Israel’s (not response-response infers that Palestine started this) aggression, and apartheid of their people? WTF KN? Of course there will be even more people who want retaliation against Israel. The whole world is outraged by Israel. If there was an international poll, outside of the Jews, what percent of the world supports Israel over Palestine in this issue? I guarantee amongst citizens (not bought off governments-like the US) support for Palestine is way way higher than for Israel.

    Were the blacks in South Africa sort of equally to blame for their enduring suffering because they just weren’t willing to negotiate with their masters in good faith? The blacks just weren’t very sincere in their desire to end aparthied, so what choice did the white rulers have really. if you are not going to be filial, I guess they were asking for it. Is that it KN?

    That there are radical wings in Palestine that want to bomb Israel, well, yea, why wouldn’t there be? Is that even an unreasonable human reaction to being subjected to the abuse and indignity Israel has forced on innocent people for decades? What is Palestine’s sins for being forced to live this way? What reason should they have to respect Israel?

    Netanyahu is a true socio-path who will do anything to maintain power. You want to turn it around and say if the Israelis re-elect a murdering sociopath, well, that’s Palestine’s fault. Holy shit.

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