Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

3,793 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. Alan Fox: Disagree. The current Palestinian leadership Hamas would gain much support internationally if they showed some willingness to negotiate.

    Um. First, shove people off their land. Second, offer to negotiate an agreement that will return SOME of that land, under certain restrictions. Third, criticize those whose land was arbitrarily taken for not seeing any clear compromise. If I steal your car, and offer to compromise by allowing you to drive it on rare occaions at my pleasure and under my supervision, would you consider this adequate compensation? Or would you continue to insist that the car was YOUR car, and no compromise or negotiation is acceptable?

    I’m reminded of the “nation” of Yugoslavia, a fiction enforced by the USSR until the USSR collapsed and could no longer enforce this fiction. And suddenly we have Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, and Macedonia. All of whose populations had been at war with one another, because the whole territory had been under the control of one group or another at different times, and all of them, freed of Soviet domination, resumed these ancient claims and battles that had been suspended for 50 years. Nobody had forgotten what they all considered “their” historical land.

    It strikes me as dubious that today’s Israel can sensibly be claimed as any Jewish historical land, after 2000 years of not controlling it (and even 2000 years ago, there was no unified Jewish state, and various tribes conquered each others’ lands regularly). But there WAS a very real Palestine, that Western nations decided to, uh, repurpose in compensation for the terrible treatment the Jews had suffered. Not a lot of careful negotiation in creating Israel, no mutually agreed-upon quid pro quo when one side has all the guns.

    So I have to agree with KN, that we do not have the makings of a deal when Hamas recognizes that their land was flat stolen and wants it ALL back, and Netanyahu realizes the very survival of his nation requires him to defend his stolen property at all costs.

  2. Alan Fox,

    True. As in Northern Ireland, the ‘hard men’ on both sides have a vested interest in continuing the conflict. Sure, it would have been great if Hamas had seen Bibi’s provocation for what it was and sat on their hands, but I don’t see how one can fault them for their reaction…1) they have their own internal political realities to face and 2) could they really assume that Bibi wouldn’t just escalate to something even more atrocious anyway?

    Flint,

    Not that it matters really, but your history is a bit off. Not a lot, but enough to damage your argument.

  3. DNA_Jock: Sure, it would have been great if Hamas had seen Bibi’s provocation for what it was and sat on their hands

    Would have been great for whom?

  4. Flint: First, shove people off their land.

    It has ever been thus. I blame the Romans. The problem is we live in the now. Does the state of Israel have the right to exist peacefully within its boundaries without hindrance? Do the Palestinians deserve their own viable state? I say yes to both. Is it achievable? I say with goodwill on both sides, with International support, with statesmen acting as statesmen, it can be.

  5. In what way has Israel EVER tried to exist peacefully with Palestine Alan? That is such bullshit.

    Wouldn’t it be just so great for the Palestinians to just do nothing every time the Jews steal their land and bomb their mosques and put a wall around them. Wouldn’t that be so great if they do nothing? Super!

  6. Flint: I’m reminded of the “nation” of Yugoslavia

    Why the scare quotes? The country officially came into being with the Corfu declaration after being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire which ceased to exist at the end of World War I. I recall going on a road trip to Dubrovnik with a couple of mates and a tent in 1967. We entered via the Austrian Alps via Ljubljana (faded elegance) through Bosnia, medieval, untarred roads, horse-drawn wagons, into Dalmatia (strong German influence “zimmer frei” signs everywhere near the coast). No hint that the concept of Greater Serbia would soon result in catastrophe. Walked Dubrovnik’s city walls without any premonition of the destruction in store.

    We can’t fix the past, only try to make changes in the now and hope to improve the future.

  7. phoodoo: In what way has Israel EVER tried to exist peacefully with Palestine…

    When they gave back the territory they occupied in the Six Day War? What’s the alternative to negotiation in good faith.

  8. Reinhold Hanning said sorry.

    But the Jews kept wanting to talk about Auschwitz!

    When are they going to get over it, Dershowitz ?

  9. Alan Fox,

    Oh let me think… Stop stealing more of their land and murdering their kids? Oh and maybe give them a country like people in the rest of world have?

  10. “Its like people looking up at the German bombs over Britan and saying, ah, but there are two sides here.” Let’s not put all the blame on Germany.

    Exactly.

  11. “Its an attack on occupied people by the occupier, Israel, backed by great powers.”

    Hear, hear.

  12. “Do you think they understand (the journalists from the BBC who have had to apologize for their biased reporting) that firing stun grenades into the Al Aqsa Mosque on the equivalent of Christmas Eve is like doing that to the Vatican on Christmas Eve?”

    “If they don’t know, then what the hell are they doing there?”

  13. phoodoo:
    Reinhold Hanning said sorry.

    But the Jews kept wanting to talk about Auschwitz!

    When are they going to get over it,Dershowitz ?

    Happened in my lifetime, and I’m not that old. People who were alive in WWII will be around another 20 years.

  14. “Where are all the high paid western journalists in Gaza? Its like a boycott of Gaza.”

    “We know that Israel is a lying machine, it has proven to be that…”

  15. petrushka: Happened in my lifetime, and I’m not that old. People who were alive in WWII will be around another 20 years.

    Let bygones, be bygones for crying out loud, Alan pleads. Let’s not argue over whose holocaust was whose….

    Auschwitz, Scmauschwitz…whose life is perfect…

  16. petrushka: Happened in my lifetime, and I’m not that old. People who were alive in WWII will be around another 20 years.

    There are two sides to every conflict Petrushka.

    “As England, in spite of the hopelessness of her military position, has so far shown herself unwilling to come to any compromise,” Hitler said

    Sounds the English side just wasn’t willing to negotiate in good faith.

    And maybe if the Jews would have just sat on their hands more…they would have garnered more international support, and it wouldn’t have had to come to this.

  17. Thirty nine countries have condemned China,. The Biden Administration, plus the British and Canadian governments have issued official declarations that the Chinese are committing genocide. Not likely that the Jews are going to allow it to happen to them again.

    But I will accept the world’s outrage at Israel, just as soon as everyone in the world returns every bit of property that was ever taken by force.

  18. petrushka,

    “As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by the United Nations Human Rights Council. Since the creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance).[1] From 1967 to 1989 the UN Security Council adopted 131 resolutions directly addressing the Arab–Israeli conflict.”

    What property did Palestine steal from israel?

  19. phoodoo,

    Anything constructive to suggest? Hint: I have absolutely no power or influence over events in Israel/Palestine.

  20. petrushka: But I will accept the world’s outrage at Israel, just as soon as everyone in the world returns every bit of property that was ever taken by force.

    That’s unrealistic. How are you going to hand back Florida to the First Nations?

    ETA I see “First Nations” is applied to Canadian tribes but I hope you get my drift.

  21. petrushka: But I will accept the world’s outrage at Israel, just as soon as everyone in the world returns every bit of property that was ever taken by force.

    Some Jews objected to their property being stolen. If they would have just sat on their hands without complaining, maybe they would have garnered more sympathy.

    Ask Jock about that one.

    Like the fatass Jewish settler (theif) last week said to the Palestinian family whose house he was confiscating “Why are you blaming me, if I don’t take your house some then someone else will….its not my fault”

  22. Alan Fox: Anything constructive to suggest?

    Yes, my suggestion is that people all over the world condemn this obsence jewish farce. And they will.

    If Netanyahu was concerned about anti-semitism before, well, he better prepare for ten times more outrage.

  23. phoodoo: Yes, my suggestion is that people all over the world condemn this obsence jewish farce.And they will.

    If Netanyahu was concerned about anti-semitism before, well, he better prepare for ten times more outrage.

    I think he’s more focused on re-election.

  24. phoodoo:
    Alan Fox,
    And when there is a terrorist attack against Israel, who is going to be to blame?

    Hamas are launching rockets into Israel now, I understand. It seems like madness to me. Giving Israel a fig leaf to continue the destruction in Gaza.

  25. Alan Fox: Managed to watch the first one. Completely mystified! Great soundtrack though.

    Keep going! It’s (eventually) speaks to everything that’s been discussed recently re: free will. I’ll do a OP on it at some point.

  26. Alan Fox,

    Oh, you mean when England bombed Germany that was a terrorist attack?

    They were giving Hitler fig leaves?

  27. phoodoo: Oh, you mean when England bombed Germany that was a terrorist attack?

    The fire-storm inducing night-raids on Cologne and other cities have been called such.

  28. Alan Fox: That’s unrealistic. How are you going to hand back Florida to the First Nations?

    ETA I see “First Nations” is applied to Canadian tribes but I hope you get my drift.

    Florida, more than 50 years ago, bought the land from the Seminoles, fair and square.

  29. The price, in today’s value was about two million dollars for ever Seminole person.

  30. So on CNN, Jake Tapper asks Representative Pramila Jayapal what Israel should do when this outbreak was started by Hamas indiscriminately firing rockets at Israel.

    I thought, that is weird that Tapper, would say this, that is not true, that is not how this started. So, I looked into Tapper’s background. He was raised Jewish.

    OH! Now his question makes sense. This is the world we live in. Be skeptical, very skepitical. But not in the skeptic kind of way, in the real way.

    KN, Alan (Dershowtiz) Fox, Joe Felsenstein….

  31. phoodoo:
    So on CNN, Jake Tapper asks Representative Pramila Jayapal what Israel should do when this outbreak was started by Hamas indiscriminately firing rockets at Israel.

    I thought, that is weird that Tapper, would say this, that is not true, that is not how this started.So, I looked into Tapper’s background.He was raised Jewish.

    OH!Now his question makes sense. This is the world we live in.Be skeptical, very skepitical. But not in the skeptic kind of way, in the real way.

    KN, Alan (Dershowtiz) Fox, Joe Felsenstein….

    Exactly what position have I taken here that brings me into this discussion, phoodoo? My name?

    phoodoo has also

    phoodoo: Yes, my suggestion is that people all over the world condemn this obsence jewish farce.And they will.

    If Netanyahu was concerned about anti-semitism before, well, he better prepare for ten times more outrage.

    To phoodoo the relevant adjective is “jewish”. Not “Israeli”. What next? Rants about curcumcision? About Kosher butchers? Citing the Protocols Of the Elders of Zion?

    There is much to say about human rights of Palestinians and Israelis. Nothing worthiwhile in any such discussion will be said by phoodoo.

  32. Joe Felsenstein,

    Then condemn Israel’s actions. But you won’t, of course. I have seen other things you have written.

    Joe Felsenstein: There is much to say about human rights of Palestinians and Israelis.

    This says it all right there doesn’t it? In what way are the human rights of Israeli’s abused every day of their lives? They aren’t. But they certainly are abused, every single day, for every single Palestinian in the country. Not one is unaffected by the actions of the abusers, Israel.

    Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

    Several widely held assumptions, including that the occupation is temporary, that the “peace process” will soon bring an end to Israeli abuses, that Palestinians have meaningful control over their lives in the West Bank and Gaza, and that Israel is an egalitarian democracy inside its borders, have obscured the reality of Israel’s entrenched discriminatory rule over Palestinians. Israel has maintained military rule over some portion of the Palestinian population for all but six months of its 73-year history. It did so over the vast majority of Palestinians inside Israel from 1948 and until 1966. From 1967 until the present, it has militarily ruled over Palestinians in the OPT, excluding East Jerusalem. By contrast, it has since its founding governed all Jewish Israelis, including settlers in the OPT since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, under its more rights-respecting civil law.

    For the past 54 years, Israeli authorities have facilitated the transfer of Jewish Israelis to the OPT and granted them a superior status under the law as compared to Palestinians living in the same territory when it comes to civil rights, access to land, and freedom to move, build, and confer residency rights to close relatives. While Palestinians have a limited degree of self-rule in parts of the OPT, Israel retains primary control over borders, airspace, the movement of people and goods, security, and the registry of the entire population, which in turn dictates such matters as legal status and eligibility to receive identity cards.

    A stated aim of the Israeli government is to ensure that Jewish Israelis maintain domination across Israel and the OPT. The Knesset in 2018 passed a law with constitutional status affirming Israel as the “nation-state of the Jewish people,” declaring that within that territory, the right to self-determination “is unique to the Jewish people,” and establishing “Jewish settlement” as a national value. To sustain Jewish Israeli control, Israeli authorities have adopted policies aimed at mitigating what they have openly described as a demographic “threat” that Palestinians pose. Those policies include limiting the population and political power of Palestinians, granting the right to vote only to Palestinians who live within the borders of Israel as they existed from 1948 to June 1967, and limiting the ability of Palestinians to move to Israel from the OPT and from anywhere else to Israel or the OPT. Other steps are taken to ensure Jewish domination, including a state policy of “separation” of Palestinians between the West Bank and Gaza, which prevents the movement of people and goods within the OPT, and “Judaization” of areas with significant Palestinian populations, including Jerusalem as well as the Galilee and the Negev in Israel. This policy, which aims to maximize Jewish Israeli control over land, concentrates the majority of Palestinians who live outside Israel’s major, predominantly Jewish cities into dense, under-served enclaves and restricts their access to land and housing, while nurturing the growth of nearby Jewish communities.

    There isn’t an equvilency here. There are not TWO sides whose human rights are abused, Joe. Anything any Palestinain authorty does to retiliate is not abusing the human rights of a single Israeli. That would be like saying the Vietnamese violated the human rights of Americans by firing back when the US raided their villages.

    Circumcision? Is that an attempt to make it appear that it is the Israeli’s religious conventions that is behind the disgust of the Israeli government around the world? Shame shame Joe.

    Human Rights Watch
    https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

  33. “If I don’t steal your house someone else will, ….don’t blame me…”

  34. OMagain,

    “Oh, But what about, what about, what about…..”

    Maybe they are trying to protect tennis stars from getting stabbed.

  35. (Screwed up the HTML on that one. Here it is as I intended:)

    I asked:

    phoodoo said: : KN, Alan (Dershowtiz) Fox, Joe Felsenstein….

    Exactly what position have I taken here that brings me into this discussion, phoodoo? My name?

    I repeat that question. It has not been answered. I think I know the answer, but maybe there is some other explanation.

  36. Joe Felsenstein,

    And you didn’t answer mine. Do you condemn Israel’s occupation and apartheid of Palestine?

    Why did you just say there is a lot to say about Palestine AND Israel’s human rights? There is no human rights being taken away from anyone in Israel (unless you mean the Israeli’s who speak out against their government and get punished?).

    You have made other pro-Israel staements before-that’s why I brought your name up. It’s the equvalent of being pro South Africa government during apartheid there. How can anyone justify this kind of government?

    So, do you condemn them now?

  37. phoodoo: And you didn’t answer mine. Do you condemn Israel’s occupation and apartheid of Palestine?

    Perhaps the question made no sense.

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