Quick Question for the Judeo-Christian Believer Participants

I am curious to know if, based on your faith, you think it is possible for the human race to become utterly extinct. Does the free will we have been endowed with make even that awful fate possible, or do you think that, because of the particular interest God has in us (we being created in His image, for example) this is not something that would ever be allowed to happen? In a word, should we take steps to ensure that there will still be human life in 100 years, or (assuming–at least for the moment–that the apparent dangers to our continuance haven’t just been fabricated somehow) homo sapiens are safe in God’s hands.

I’m particularly interested in the Judeo-Christian response to this, but I hope those with less traditional theist views will also chime in. Thanks in advance for any responses. I have “Believer” in the title because I’m less interested in the responses of those who, e.g., consider themselves Jewish because their parents were Jewish and they enjoy matza ball soup. I’m interested in the responses of believers.

206 thoughts on “Quick Question for the Judeo-Christian Believer Participants

  1. newton: I understand, it is God’s choice that is objective. Your subjective choice is to accept the gift.

    Right my subjective choice is simply the outworking of his graciousness to me. So I can’t boast

    peace

  2. keiths: For something to matter in the relevant way, it just has to matter to somebody (or somebodies).

    If the somebody (or somebodies) are just like you then they will all be dead soon and nothing you chose will be remembered at all. None of it will matter at all in the scheme of things

    peace

  3. walto: But there are other “progressions of series.”

    Sure, and none of them whatsoever end with you or your choices. Except those subjective ones that were all about you in the first place.

    walto: [we] don’t require that what we happen to be interested in today have importance across the length, breadth and eons of the entire frigging universe.

    Ok so you do agree with me that none of your choices matter in the ultimate scheme of things. That is what I thought. Why the hostility then?

    There is nothing to be ashamed of in owing the fact that you believe in the end it’s either subjectively all about you or it does not matter. I just disagree.

    Like you said before wanting more than that is just tough noogies in your world. If you are cool with that then there is no problem. Different strokes

    But remember you had said earlier that you sometimes wished that your desires actually mattered in the world.

    I guess today is just not one of those times 😉

    peace

  4. fifthmonarchyman:
    If this was not an anti-theist site or if you had a less grating demeanor

    You reap what you sow filth. Look at your own demeanor: Matthew 7:3-5.

    fifthmonarchyman:
    or if I was not so incredibly pressed for time I would take the time to explain the philosophical position called compatibilism to you

    I seriously doubt someone like you, who cannot recognize absurdity, can give me any lessons in philosophy.

    fifthmonarchyman:
    but instead I will just let Paul do the talking.

    That didn’t solve the absurdity, it only said that you’re nobody to question the absurdities of your imaginary friend, and then added absurdity for good measure. Good choice if you wanted to make my point.

    ’nuff said indeed.

    ETA: As per the presuppositionalist bullshit of a “method,” you’ll keep avoiding looking at the beam in your own eye (how about that for “The Authentically Biblical Defence Of The Faith [TM]”!), and continue making my point claim after claim, avoidance after avoidance, absurdity after absurdity. So I’ll leave you now.

  5. walto:

    Those of us who aren’t megalomaniacs don’t require that what we happen to be interested in today have importance across the length, breadth and eons of the entire frigging universe. Wanting that is just a sickness born of neediness and self-aggrandizement.

    fifth:

    There is nothing to be ashamed of in owing the fact that you believe in the end it’s either subjectively all about you or it does not matter. I just disagree.

    Nothing walto wrote leads to that idiotic dichotomy.

  6. fifthmonarchyman: Right my subjective choice is simply the outworking of his graciousness to me. So I can’t boast

    Whatever reason you choose to value, it is a subjective choice. Hope you solve your connection issue.

    peace

  7. fifthmonarchyman: Ok so you do agree with me that none of your choices matter in the ultimate scheme of things. That is what I thought. Why the hostility then?

    No I don’t agree with that at all, as I’ve already explained twice. And I’m hostile because you are, once again, calling me a liar simply because I’ve told you that it is confused to think that mattering requires infinitude. It’s an infantile view, and, whether or not I’m sorry you’ve been so severely brainwashed that you will never achieve normal adulthood, there’s nothing I can do about it since, for good or ill, facts are facts and the truth does matter– at least to those not Jesus-obsessed.

  8. walto: No I don’t agree with that at all, as I’ve already explained twice.

    Then it seems we have an irreconcilable disagreement as to the meanings of objective and ultimate……and possibly “meaning” itself.

    That is also OK. It takes all kinds of people to make a world.

    I hope you don’t come away with the idea that we need to agree about everything in order to get along.

    I only wish that in your world there was a way to settle these sorts of fundamental disagreements with out getting so heated and unpleasant.

    Perhaps there could be some sort of proportional voting process. 😉

    peace

  9. Yes, we have a disagreement wrt “ultimate”: you bake into it that something can ultimately matter only if it matters everywhere and always. If you do that….well, sure.

    As to the other stuff, I may SOUND harsher than you do, but you have to remember, you were characterizing my posts in a manner that I made clear was not my view. When you do that, there will be blow back.

    I still like you–and proportional voting–though.

  10. walto: As to the other stuff, I may SOUND harsher than you do, but you have to remember, you were characterizing my posts in a manner that I made clear was not my view.

    Here is the rub. It sounded “to me” as if you shared my view and did not share it at the same time. Almost as if you bristled at the inevitable conclusion that your own premises led you to. Remember “tough noogies”?

    I hate to be all psychological but that is my honest impression and apparently in your world that makes it “ultimate”.

    I do apologize if I read the conversation wrong

    peace

  11. fifthmonarchyman: Here is the rub. It sounded “to me” as if you shared my view and did not share it at the same time. Almost as if you bristled at the inevitable conclusion that your own premises led you to.Remember “tough noogies”?

    I hate to be all psychological but that is my honest impression and apparently in your world that makes it “ultimate”.

    I do apologize if I read the conversation wrong

    peace

    It’s really not too complicated. I share your view that mattering can go beyond the personal and that what “ultimately” matters may go beyond what matters to some individual. I do not share your view that for that to be true the item must matter eternally and throughout the entire freaking universe. As I said, you bake what you want into the meaning of “ultimate.” That way of assuming what you want to prove is kind of your basic M.O.

  12. walto: I share your view that mattering can go beyond the personal and that what “ultimately” matters may go beyond what matters to some individual.

    when I said we agree that is what I meant

    walto: I do not share your view that for that to be true the item must matter eternally and throughout the entire freaking universe.

    I never mentioned anything about “true” in the context of our conversation. I am especially conscious on that fact because I know you go particulary ballistic when I use that term 😉

    walto: As I said, you bake what you want into the meaning of “ultimate.”

    I’m just going with Webster. In the context of the world nothing about you can be “ultimate” sans God. That is because you or (your choices) are not the last of a series or final or best or any of the things that ultimate means.

    The problem from my perspective is your disconnect between where we agree and where you import subjectivity into ultimate meaning.

    None of this is any reason to not have a nice day

    peace

  13. fifthmonarchyman: That is because you or (your choices) are not the last of a series

    I’m sorry, but that’s just wrong. Take the series–events involving the thought of a sentient entity. Or events involving human beings on earth. Or events involving progeny of Walter Horn. Or events involving citations in top philosophy journals. Or events involving memories of people who post at TSZ. My choices could matter based on some of those “ultimates.”

    You take the series to be, I don’t know, every event in the universe or some silly thing like that. But that’s not what we generally mean by ultimate. Take the ultimate game in last year’s world series or the penultimate episode of Veep.

  14. So, again, if one begs the question as you do by asking, “So, does anything you do ultimately matter?” when you take this to mean in mattering eternally to God or whatever is around until the end of days? The answer is, “Of course not–but who in their right mind would care about THAT silly thing?”

  15. walto: Take the series–events involving the thought of a human being. Or events involving human beings on earth. Or events involving progeny of Walter Horn. Or events involving citations in top philosophy journals. Or events involving memories of people who post at TSZ.

    Your choices are not any of those things except in your own subjective experience. Nor can they be.

    And soon you will be dead and no one will remember or care

    peace

  16. fifthmonarchyman: Your choices are not any of those things except in your own subjective experience. Nor can they be.

    Now you’re on to some other nonsense about solipsism apparently. Like a greased pig you are. Anyhow, have fun with your question-begging weaseling. I’m sure it matters to Jesus.

  17. walto: Now you’re on to some other nonsense about solipsism apparently.

    No but I suppose I can see why you might think that. solipsism and nihilism are twin sisters. Given that you can’t have meaning in any ultimate sense with out objectivity

    walto: have fun with your question-begging weaseling.

    There is no question-begging I’m simply agreeing with what you said earlier, recognizing the universal desire you expressed to have your desires ” mater in the world” and sympathizing with your plight.

    I’m not even looking to convince you of anything that I believe. I’d just like you to own your own view.

    peace

  18. fifthmonarchyman: I’m not even looking to convince you of anything that I believe. I’d just like you to own your own view.

    Why do you choose to desire that he own his view? Why would his choices matter to you, he will soon ( not too soon) be dead.

  19. newton: Why would his choices matter to you

    Because (ultimately) they matter to God and what matters to God matters to me

    peace

  20. fifthmonarchyman: Because (ultimately) they matter to God and what matters to God matters to me

    peace

    You and he can both go fuck yourselves. Both the apparently real, confused and obnoxious one, and the fantasy guy with the superpowers and the three secret identities.

  21. walto: You and he can both go fuck yourselves. Both the apparently real, confused and obnoxious one, and the fantasy guy with the superpowers and the three secret identities.

    And we wonder why there arn’t more thoughtful theists willing to participate on this website.

    It must be because lizzy is absent 😉

    peace

  22. fifthmonarchyman: And we wonder why there arn’t more thoughtful theists willing to participate on this website.

    It must be because lizzy is absent 😉

    peace

    Thoughtful theists would be a nice change of pace from needy robots who insist on misrepresenting people they’re pretending to be decent to. If you meet some, send them around!

  23. walto: Thoughtful theists would be a nice change of pace from needy robots who insist on misrepresenting people they’re pretending to be decent to.

    How exactly am I misrepresenting you? Didn’t you say this

    quote:

    walto: I share your view that mattering can go beyond the personal and that what “ultimately” matters may go beyond what matters to some individual.

    end quote;

    like I said before, I am only agreeing with you when you say that.

    If you have since changed your mind about what you said I apologize I did not know.

    peace

  24. Perhaps it’s this statement concerning your wish that your desires mattered in in the world that you want to disavow now.

    quote:

    I feel like my own “religious phases” have been those in which I tried to convince myself that my desires–on their own–had some effect in the world. I was important because wishing/wanting/praying had bite. Not so different from when I’d be worried about not picking up a penny I saw on the street on the chance that if picking up a coin was good luck, failing to do so might screw up my wife’s pregnancy. Same thing with the feeling that a team lost some game because I’d failed to watch it. Magic, you know?

    end quote:

    I honestly have no idea what you are on about.

    peace

  25. I’m on about your repetitive misrepresentations, which you have continued with in spite of my correcting you no fewer than three times. What you would do if you were a mensch is apologize and then shut the fuck up. But that’s inconsistent with your programming, obviously.

    I twice warned you that if you acted that way, there would be hostility. You’ve now acted that way three times, and yet you’re surprised. I was telling the truth, you see? Truth is, however, something you simply cannot understand. Go ask your sky-buddy–i mean if he’s not out changing fish to CO2, or shopping for sandals, or saving a lost soul or something cooler than listening to you whine.

  26. fifthmonarchyman: newton: Why would his choices matter to you

    Fifth: Because (ultimately) they matter to God and what matters to God matters to me

    So it is not because you need Walto’s life to be devoid of “ultimate” meaning in order to feel good about your own choice?

    I hate to be all psychological but that is my honest impression.

  27. fifthmonarchyman: Because (ultimately) they matter to God and what matters to God matters to me

    peace

    “ I’d just like you to own your own view” .(because it matters to the God I believe in)

    Still sounds like a personal preference.

  28. Corneel: So it is not because you need Walto’s life to be devoid of “ultimate” meaning in order to feel good about your own choice?

    I don’t think Walto’s life is devoid of “ultimate” meaning. I think sadly that walto is unable to see that his life has meaning in an ultimate sense.

    I think walto’s worldview necessarily entails that all our lives are devoid of ultimate meaning and he feels a little bit sad about that. That is when he is in a “religious phase”.

    Right now apparently he is not in one of those phases. As witnessed by the “blow back”.

    I suppose in addition to wanting my desires to correspond with God’s I would also like him to own this because it would validate own my faith in humanity.

    I don’t think nihilism is particularly healthy for the future of our world. and I would like to think that it is at least a little unpleasant for folks to understand that that is the road their chosen premises take them down.

    peace

  29. newton: “ I’d just like you to own your own view” .(because it matters to the God I believe in)

    Still sounds like a personal preference.

    There are two persons in that statement with a preference. God who would like the truth to reign in individuals and me who agrees with him.

    peace

    PS If anyone want’s to quivel about why God does not just force walto to own his view. Please check out the difference between God’s prescriptive will and will of decree.

  30. fifthmonarchyman: I think walto’s worldview necessarily entails that all our lives are devoid of ultimate meaning and he feels a little bit sad about that.

    Ah yes, the God-shaped hole. No, Walto’s worldview does not necessarily entail that his life lacks ultimate meaning. You are just wrong about that. Perhaps it entails a lack of for-eternity-ultimate meaning, but I doubt he is sad about that. I know it doesn’t bother me. I strongly suspect that is just you projecting your values and concerns onto others.

    fifthmonarchyman: I don’t think nihilism is particularly healthy for the future of our world. and I would like to think that it is at least a little unpleasant for folks to understand that that is the road their chosen premises take them down.

    You know, it is peculiar that you insist that you can’t fathom how anyone could possibly conceive of a universe without God, but keep telling other people exactly how they ought to feel and behave, if they were to reason from that premise.

  31. fifthmonarchyman: PS If anyone want’s to quivel about why God does not just force walto to own his view. Please check out the difference between God’s prescriptive will and will of decree.

    If anybody would like to “quivel” about the levels of assholishness to which FMM will sink, I will direct them to his posts on this thread. I think it will be clear to all that the sniveling robot is just a prick, in spite of the part of his program requiring him to end each post, no matter how obnoxious and uncharitable, with “peace.”

  32. Corneel: Ah yes, the God-shaped hole. No, Walto’s worldview does not necessarily entail that his life lacks ultimate meaning. You are just wrong about that. Perhaps it entails a lack of for-eternity-ultimate meaning, but I doubt he is sad about that. I know it doesn’t bother me. I strongly suspect that is just you projecting your values and concerns onto others.

    You know, it is peculiar that you insist that you can’t fathom how anyone could possibly conceive of a universe without God, but keep telling other people exactly how they ought to feel and behave, if they were to reason from that premise.

    Exactly. Presuppositionism is just begging the question at every conceivable opportunity. It doesn’t seem to me to entail being an absolute asshole, but FMM’s behavior suggests that maybe it does.

  33. Corneel: Walto’s worldview does not necessarily entail that his life lacks ultimate meaning. You are just wrong about that.

    That is surely a possibility. I only wish he would make that case.

    As I see it there is no way to get from a subjective finite individual to ultimate anything.

    Corneel: Perhaps it entails a lack of for-etternity-ultimate meaning,

    So you are saying we have two kinds of ultimate an ultimate one and one that walto can have.

    Do you not see how illogical that statement is?

    Corneel: but I doubt he is sad about that.

    His earlier statement about his religious phases seemed to me to strongly imply otherwise. That is why I asked if he wanted to disavow that statement.

    Corneel: it is peculiar that you insist that you can’t fathom how anyone could possibly conceive of a universe without God, but keep telling other people exactly how they ought to feel and behave, if they were to “logically” reason from that premise.

    Why?
    Presupposing the existence of a square circle leads logically to the conclusion that nothing whatsoever makes sense in your world?

    Which should lead you to abandon your presupposition, if it does not then it makes your absurdity obvious to those who witnesses it.

    peace

  34. fifthmonarchyman: That is surely a possibility. I only wish he would make that case.

    As I see it there is no way to get from a subjective finite individual to ever get to ultimate anything.

    So you are saying we have two kinds of ultimate an ultimate one and one that walto can have.

    Do you not see how illogical that statement is?

    His earlier statement about his religious phases seemed to me to strongly imply otherwise. That is why I asked if he wanted to disavow that statement.

    Why?
    Pesuposing the existence of a square circle leads logically to the conclution that nothing whatsoever makes sense in your world?

    Which should lead you to abandon your presupposition, if it does not then it makes your absurdity obvious to those who witness it.

    peace

    Wow. Just continue to spout nonsense, non-stop. Impressive in your combination of confusion, neediness, condescension, and assholishness–I’ll give you that.

    BTW, in my “religious phase” I was somewhat more needy and childish than I am at present. But never nearly as utterly pathetic as you have been your entire, wasted, pointless life that you nevertheless think matters to Superman.

  35. walto: Exactly. Presuppositionism is just begging the question at every conceivable opportunity. It doesn’t seem to me to entail being an absolute asshole, but FMM’s behavior suggests that maybe it does.

    Objectively being an absolute asshole must be lesson 1 in presuppositional apologetics, and a credo they must repeat before starting any lessons afterwards.

  36. fifthmonarchyman: So you are saying we have two kinds of ultimate an ultimate one and one that walto can have.

    Do you not see how illogical that statement is?

    I am saying that Walto and you meant different things when you were using the word “ultimate”.

    This is known to happen.

    fifthmonarchyman: Why?

    Because it suggests that you have thought through what a universe without God would be like: a negative imprint of your worldview with a big God-shaped hole in the middle. That’s mistaken.

  37. Corneel: I am saying that Walto and you meant different things when you were using the word “ultimate”.

    What I mean by ultimate is the dictionary definition.

    You or walto are welcome to come up with a new definition of your own if you like. But it will not mean what ultimate does

    peace

  38. Corneel: Because it suggests that you have thought through what a universe without God would be like:

    Ive tried to, Just like Ive tried to think about what a square circle would be like. It’s an interesting exercise.

    That does not mean that square circles are logical

    peace

  39. Corneel:

    I am saying that Walto and you meant different things when you were using the word “ultimate”.

    fifth:

    What I mean by ultimate is the dictionary definition.

    As if there were only one.

  40. fifthmonarchyman: What I mean by ultimate is the dictionary definition.

    That position has already been shown to be stupid–since it suggests that the ultimate game in last year’s World Series must take place at the end of time. But you nevertheless repeat it, Father Williams. I wonder, how dumb you can be?

  41. walto: since it suggests that the ultimate game in last year’s World Series must take place at the end of time.

    No it just suggests you can’t subjectively declare a game to be the ultimate one.

    In the case of last years World Series ultimacy is defined by rules set up by the MLB defining a beginning and end of the baseball season etc.

    MLB’s authority to do such a thing is established by it’s relationship with the teams participating. The teams’ status as valid representatives of professional baseball in a local community is established by tradition and popularity etc.

    The importance of professional Baseball is established by history and devotion of millions of fans across more than a hundred years.

    The importance of American sport is established by the relative importance of America in the world at a given time

    None of this can ever be reduced to walto’s subjective individual choice.

    If you want your show how your choices have meaning in any ultimate sense you should probably look for a better example than Major League baseball.

    peace

  42. fifthmonarchyman: No it just suggests you can’t subjectively declare a game to be the ultimate one.

    Haha. No.

    fifthmonarchyman: None of this can ever be reduced to walto’s subjective individual choice.

    Of course not. That’s the point. What is ultimate is neither necessarily personal, nor necessarily stupid. It depends on the series one is talking about, just as I said at the jump.

    Try to stop dribbling nonsense and focus for a couple minutes. Might have to power down or something.

    ETA: Let me spell this out a bit more for the dullards. You can’t get that “ultimate” entails some event at the end and far reaches of universe unless you bake that pointless gibberish into your concept (i.e., BEG THE QUESTION) of what you want “ultimate” to mean. This is because, as you just said, wrt baseball, different items and rules, different senses of “ultimate.” So, if you insist that by “ultimate” you mean until Jesus kisses your ass in the afterlife, then, of course, what matters to sensible people isn’t ultimate. But that is because YOU HAVE BEGGED THE QUESTION.

  43. walto: Of course not. That’s the point. What is ultimate is neither necessarily personal, nor necessarily stupid.

    Just as I thought, you are still trying to do the definition dance.

    Instead of discussing the obvious fact that your choices won’t make any real difference in the universe because you and yours will soon be dead .

    You are trying to do a word study on “ultimate”. So that we will forget what the actual topic is.

    Have fun with that. I just don’t have time

    peace

  44. walto: So, if you insist that by “ultimate” you mean until Jesus kisses your ass in the afterlife, then, of course, what matters to sensible people isn’t ultimate. But that is because YOU HAVE BEGGED THE QUESTION.

    You still don’t get it, As I have already said I’m not trying to convince you that God or Jesus is necessary for your choices to matter in the universe.

    I’m only pointing out the obvious fact that in your world your choices don’t matter in the universe in any ultimate sense.

    after all this time you still think I’m arguing for God’s existence.

    Geeze it’s like you don’t even pay attention

    peace

  45. fifthmonarchyman: Just as I thought, you are still trying to do the definition dance.

    Instead of discussing the obvious fact that your choices won’t make any real difference in the universe because you and yours will soon be dead .

    You are trying to do a word study on “ultimate”. So that we will forget what the actual topic is.

    Have fun with that. I just don’t have time

    peace

    Right, let’s not settle on a definition so you can switch back and forth and claim you’re just using Webster.

    It’s not time you need, but little sense.

  46. fifthmonarchyman: You still don’t get it, As I have already said I’m not trying to convince you that God or Jesus is necessary for your choices to matter in the universe.

    I’m only pointing out the obvious fact that in your world your choices don’t matter in the universe in any ultimate sense.

    after all this time you still think I’m arguing for God’s existence.

    Geeze it’s like you don’t even pay attention

    peace

    What you’re doing is a dance that’s one part equivocation, one part begging the question, and one part hopping around in the corner with a dunce’s cap on. Boring, yes, but kind of amusing too.

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