Today Mung claimed of TSZ that
I see mocking of Christianity, what I don’t see are arguments that Christianity is false.
As the regulars here (including Mung) know, this is bollocks. There have been many such arguments, and Mung has fled from a number of them.
I replied:
You see plenty of them [arguments against Christianity], but you’re in denial.
Want to test that hypothesis? Start a thread asking for arguments against Christianity. You’ll get an earful.
He got cold feet, so I am starting the thread for him. I’ll provide some arguments in the comments. Feel free to add your own or to cross-post or link to old OPs and comments, if you can’t be arsed to reinvent the wheel for Mung’s trollish sake.
Mung’s fellow Christians are welcome to come to his aid. He’ll need all the help he can get.
Rather than reposting them, I’ll advise interested readers to copy and paste the thread titles into the search box at the top of the page.
Sure. But that doesn’t even begin to approach an argument for why Christianity is false.
KN,
That’s easy. Christianity is true or false to the extent that its essential beliefs are true or false.
Only if you click on them.
ETA Ninja’d by Neil!
Claiming something does not make it so.
It’s all good but the relevant part is found about minute 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5Nu6EabQD8
also check this out
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm
peace
This is the sort of thing that keiths should be addressing here.
He needs to define is terms satisfactorily first and as far as KN is concerned he has not done that. Until he does so this exercise is nothing but noise
peace
No, not arguments against Christianity. One or more arguments that Christianity is false.
And then keiths immediately tries to move the goalposts:
Avoiding the subject is a lot easier than making an argument for why Christianity is false, isn’t it?
What are it’s essential beliefs? You need to be very specific here because it will serve to focus the conversation that follows.
peace
How does one define what those “essential beliefs” are? By what criteria do you propose to evaluate those beliefs as being true or false?
If one were to assume in advance that the “essential beliefs” of Christianity are true or false in terms of whether they conform to the requirements of empirical investigation, you’re not exactly parking your priors at the door.
I would say that the belief that Jesus actually existed would be a core belief. But you’re not arguing that Jesus never actually existed.
I would say that the belief that Jesus was crucified would be a core belief. But you’re not arguing that Jesus was never actually crucified.
But I think we’re at least starting to get some idea about what an argument that Christianity is false would need to establish.
As a non-theist, all I ask for from my religious co-inhabitants of the world is the right to not be treated as a second-class citizen by virtue of lacking religious convictions. But the demand for equality and recognition has to be mutual or it’s nothing.
It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to demand of them that their privately held convictions must pass muster by the lights of public reason. What someone needs to believe in order to hold onto hope in the face of despair is a private matter, not an issue of public concern.
KN,
By observing which beliefs Christians regard as essential, of course. Explicit creeds such as the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed are quite helpful in that regard.
By the same criteria I’d apply to any question of truth or falsehood. For example, the claim ‘Jesus is God’ is true if Jesus is God, and it’s false if Jesus isn’t God.
The requirements vary according to the claim. If a claim can be shown to be logically necessary, for example, then empirical support isn’t required.
Precisely!
I’d agree, why not take the Apostles’ Creed and work through it line by line disproving it as you go?
now that would be interesting
peace
KN,
No one here is advocating that people be forced to abandon beliefs that don’t “pass muster”, KN, nor that they should be treated as “second-class citizens” for holding such beliefs.
As far as I’m concerned, Scientologists have the right to believe in the Marcab Confederacy and to state their beliefs publicly if they so desire. Likewise, critics are free to disbelieve in the Marcab Confederacy and to state their disbelief publicly. Both sides are also free to state the reasons for their respective beliefs and to try to persuade others.
I absolutely oppose any attempts to infringe on the above rights, which means that whether a belief is privately held by someone should have no bearing whatsoever on whether it is fair game for criticism.
You’ve expressed a protective attitude toward religious beliefs in the past, perhaps because you sense that your own religious beliefs (such as they are) would not “pass muster”. Giving special status to religious beliefs is a mistake. People should be as free to criticize religious beliefs as they are to espouse them, just as with political or scientific beliefs.
What is Christianity? What makes Christianity what it is now and what it is supposed to be?
Same applies to individual Christians… What make one a Christian or more specifically a real Christian?
This demand to your religious co-inhabitants of the world would make sense if they ran the world. Perhaps in your view they indeed rule the world and have power over citizenships of several classes.
Or you could say they once ruled the world. You can turn this into an argument against Christianity. Go ahead.
Be patient apparently keiths is going to spell it all out for us.
Then he will prove that it is all false. 😉
peace
If you can’t even figure out what ‘christian’ means, i really doubt your intellectual efforts will go anywhere.
ORLY?
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8
What one does to other people who do not share one’s beliefs is a matter of public concern.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/how_to_treat_your_enemies
keiths, If I’m going to go through your links don’t expect me to look further than your OP. If your argument for why Christianity is false isn’t in an OP you’ve written you probably have no such argument to offer.
A specific instance of the problem of evil
I don’t see an argument that Christianity is false.
David B. Hart and the problem of evil
I don’t see an argument that Christianity is false.
Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul
Has no argument that Christianity is false.
Off to a great start. One begins to see a possible pattern emerging.
More on split brains and souls
Again, not an argument that Christianity is false.
I’m not interested in making an argument against Christianity. Or in favor of it.
If I were to make a case against Christianity, I’d do so more along Nietzsche’s lines: that Christianity is psychologically harmful.
The (il)logic of intercessory prayer
The argument that Christianity is false has yet to be found.
If we’re talking about an argument that Christianity is false, keiths seems to share that same sentiment. 🙂
A dilemma for Christians — is there free will in heaven?
More of the same. Still no argument that Christianity is false.
keiths quotes me in his OP:
And his response to that:
I’ve only been through six of his OPs and I haven’t seen one yet, much less the indicated many. I guess I just have to have faith. I know, I’ll say a prayer. 🙂
An astonishingly lame argument from Alvin Plantinga
Ah. Surely this OP has an argument that Christianity is false! It’s short enough to quote in full:
Nope. No such argument to be found.
Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul, continued
Another short one:
That’s quite the argument! Total number of arguments that Christianity is false just climbed sharply up to zero!
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Oh look. An OP mocking Christianity. A SERIOUS OP! “…the question actually deserves genuine, serious consideration.”
But as an argument that Christianity is false it fails. Flush it.
Zero of nine.
Halfway through the list of OPs keiths provided and nary a one makes the argument that Christianity is false. Are we looking at the largest literature bluff in the history of TSZ? You’ve seen what’s behind half of the doors.
I’ll pray harder. Won’t you all join me?
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 1: the Garden of Eden
There’s no argument in the OP that Christianity is false. I wonder if the entire series is like that. This could be boring and repetitious.
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 2: Samson
Missing any argument that Christianity is false. ZZzzz.
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 3: The Atonement
From the OP:
keiths doesn’t argue that the atonement is false, he only claims that no one has a good explanation of how it works. That’s a rather important distinction to make. Perhaps one atonement theory is better than the others but keiths still doesn’t find it satisfying. Perhaps no one of the theories can outdo any of the others. It hardly follows that they are all false. And even if they were all false, it still doesn’t follow that Christianity itself is false.
Think in terms of evolution. There could be competing explanations for something, perhaps none of them adjudged to be good. Perhaps they are all false. It doesn’t follow that evolution is false.
keiths thinks he has arguments that Christianity is false, but all I see so far is no argument at all or a basic logic fail.
The argument that Christianity is false is still MIA.
Questions for keiths and others who have no argument that Christianity is false. Where’s the link to Part IV?
What’s wrong with theistic objective morality–in 60 seconds
From the OP:
Here, in 60 seconds or less, is why this isn’t an argument that Christianity is false.
It doesn’t even attempt to argue that Christianity is false.
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 5: Satan
From the OP:
Is this supposed to be an argument that Christianity is false? Seriously?
0 for 14. Still no such argument from keiths.
Please send money so that we can pay for more people to be freed up to pray for this miracle. An actual argument from keiths that Christianity is false. Send money now to receive your free gift. And God bless you.
Pascal’s irrational wager
From the OP:
Not an argument that Christianity is false. Fail #15. We’re in the home stretch now. Only three more keiths OPs to go and no reason at all to believe they will contain an argument that Christianity is false.
Zero.
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 6: Hell
From the OP:
Same response as all the previous. This isn’t an argument that Christianity is false.
Questions for Christians and other theists, part 7: Original Sin and the Fall
From the OP:
Christianity doesn’t teach that all humans are damned eternally and your OP doesn’t contain an argument that Christianity is false.
One more chance.
A critique of Plantinga’s ‘Free Will Defense’
Another post on free will and the problem of evil. It contains no argument whatsoever that Christianity is false.
0 for 18. That’s quite a slump, keiths. What on earth were you thinking?
Don’t bother folks. I provided the links and what we have here has to be the greatest literature bluff in TSZ history.
Good thing the topic isn’t honesty and integrity!
Christianity is false because the earth isn’t flat after all. Christianity is false because the earth isn’t at the center of the solar system. Christianity is false because it is almost certain that life exists on other planets. Christianity is false because I can’t believe that it’s true.
Given that quite a number of atheists here have confessed to becoming non-believers at or before their early teens, I still don’t think the question has ever been answered, what argument convinced you that Christianity is false?
My review of the OPs authored by keiths revealed that none of them present the argument that convinced keiths personally that Christianity is false. Perhaps there was no such argument and keiths became an unbeliever for no good reason at all.
If there was an argument that convinced keiths that Christianity is false now might be an appropriate time for him to share it. How old were you keiths? Were you even in your teens?
And you’re doing a fantastic job of it!
Heh.
I’ve got Mung wound up pretty tightly. That was quite an adolescent display on his part.
I commented on similar behavior over a year ago:
Don’t worry, Mung. I’ll connect the dots for you this time, since you can’t seem to do it on your own.
I did so in that same thread:
You remember — the problem of evil, of which you eventually said:
…thus demonstrating that you are now lying when you say:
Christianity claims that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. The evidence undercuts that claim and shows that Christianity is therefore false.
Will you actually confront the problem of evil this time, Mung, instead of fleeing from the discussion?