The Christian God and the Problem of Evil

Both Mung and KeithS have asked me to weigh in on the question of whether the existence of evil counts as a good argument against Christianity, as KeithS has maintained in a recent post, so I shall oblige.

It is important to understand that the problem of evil is not an argument against the existence of God or gods, but against what KeithS calls the Christian God (actually, the God of classical theism), Who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. KeithS succinctly formulates the problem as follows:

Let’s say I claim that an omniGod named Frank exists — omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Suppose I also claim that Frank regards seahorses as the absolute height of evil. The world contains a lot of seahorses, and Frank, being omnipotent, has the power to wipe them off the face of the earth. Why doesn’t he? Why does he countenance a world full of seahorses?

KeithS emphasizes that it is not enough for the Christian to show that God is on balance benevolent. Rather, the Christian needs to defend the claim that God is omnibenevolent:

The Christian claim is that God is omnibenevolent — as benevolent as it is logically possible to be. Finding that the items on the “good” side of the ledger outweigh those on the “bad” side — if that were the case — would not establish God’s omnibenevolence at all.

Finally, KeithS provides his own take on the problem of evil:

The problem of evil remains as much of a problem as ever for Christians. Yet there are obvious solutions to the problem that fit the evidence and are perfectly reasonable: a) accept that God doesn’t exist, or b) accept that God isn’t omnipotent, or c) accept that God isn’t perfectly benevolent. Despite the availability of these obvious solutions, most Christians will choose to cling to a view of God that has long since been falsified.

He even suggests how he would resolve the problem if he were a theist (emphasis mine – VJT):

Suppose God hates evil and suffering but is too weak to defeat them, at least at the moment. Then any such instances can be explained by God’s weakness.

It addresses the problem of evil without sacrificing theism. I’m amazed that more theists don’t seize on this sort of resolution. They’re too greedy in their theology, too reluctant to give up the omnis.

I think KeithS is onto something here. In fact, I’d like to ditch the conventional Christian views of God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence. It’s time for an overhaul.

Why a God Who constantly watches His creatures cannot be omniscient

First, the conventional notion of God’s omniscience needs to be jettisoned. As I argued in an earlier post on the problem of evil, the problem of evil depends on the assumption that God’s knowledge of our choices (and of Adam and Eve’s choices) is logically prior to those choices. In that post, I upheld the contrary view (defended in our own time by C.S. Lewis), that God is like a watcher on a high hill: He timelessly knows everything that we choose to do, but His knowledge is logically subsequent to the choices we make, which means that He doesn’t know what we will do “before” He decides to make us. I have to acknowledge, however, that this is very much a minority view among the Christian Fathers and/or Doctors of the Church, and I can only think of two who argued for this view: namely, the somewhat heterodox theologian Origen (185-254 A.D.) and possibly, the Christian philosopher Boethius (c. 480- c. 524 A.D. – although his own personal views on the subject remain in dispute, as he elsewhere seems to reject the “watcher on the hill” analogy which he develops in Book V, Prose 6 of his Consolation of Philosophy, in which he declares that God “sees all things in an eternal present just as humans see things in a non-eternal present.”) Whether they be predestinationists or Molinists, the vast majority of Christian theologians who are orthodox – and I’m not counting “open theists” here – maintain that God’s knowledge of our choices is logically prior to those choices. I haven’t taken a straw poll of lay Christian believers, but judging from Christians I’m acquainted with, the “watcher on the hill” view of God remains a popular way of reconciling His foreknowledge with human free will, to this day. I believe the common folk are wiser than the theologians here.

Why are theologians so reluctant to accept the Boethian solution? In a nutshell, because they see it as detracting from God’s sovereignty, as it makes Him dependent on His creatures for information about what is going on in the world. God has to (timelessly) observe us in order to know what we are getting up to. I have to say I don’t see the problem here, provided that God freely and timelessly chooses to rely on His creatures for His knowledge of what they do. If He wants to impose that limitation on Himself, who are we to stop Him?

But if God’s knowledge of our choices is (timelessly) obtained from observing those choices, then we can no longer say that God knows exactly what I would do in every possible situation. On the Boethian account, God does not possess counterfactual knowledge: He knows everything I do, but not everything I would do, in all possible situations. Why not? For one thing, in many situations, there simply is no fact of the matter as to what I would do. What would I do if I won $10,000,000? I don’t know, and neither does God. Nor is this a bad thing: after all, if God knows exactly what I would do in every possible situation, then it makes no sense to say that in a given situation, I could have acted otherwise. (That, by the way, is why I find Molinism utterly nonsensical.)

And what about mathematics? Does God know the answer to every possible mathematical problem? I would argue that He doesn’t, as there are many branches of mathematics where the “rules of the game” are determined by the mathematicians theorizing in that area. In a different world, we would have had different mathematicians, and different branches of mathematics, with different rules. I see no reason to suppose that God knows all possible choices that could be made by all possible (as well as actual) persons.

The upshot of all this is that while God knows everything there is to know about His creatures, He is not omniscient. There are many counterfactuals that He doesn’t know, and there are many possibilities that He never contemplates, either. All we can say is that God knows everything about what we do (past, present and future), and that we can keep no secrets from Him.

Why God is a lot less powerful than many Christians think

Second, the traditional notion of God’s omnipotence needs to be discarded. On the classical view defended by St. Thomas Aquinas, God can do anything which it is logically possible for Him to do, as God. In recent years, however, the classical view has come under fire, from the Reformed theologian Alvin Plantinga, who refuted it using the humorous counter-example of a being whose nature allows him to do nothing but scratch his ear (which he does, making him omnipotent) in his book, God and other minds (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1967), and also from the Catholic philosopher Peter Geach, who sharply criticized the traditional view in an influential article titled “Omnipotence” (Philosophy 48 (1973): 7-20 – see here for a discussion). In his article, Geach argued that God is not omnipotent but almighty: since He maintains the world in existence, He has power over all things, but He does not have the power to do all things.

What relevance does this have to the problem of evil? On the traditional view of God’s omnipotence, God could have preserved each of us from sin throughout our earthly lives, without violating our free will, as he did with Jesus and (according to Catholics and Orthodox) the Virgin Mary: we would still have possessed full libertarian freedom when choosing between alternative goods, but not when choosing between good and evil. And there are many Protestants who believe that individuals who are “born again” are infallibly elected by God, so that even if they sin, their final salvation is Divinely guaranteed. Why, one might ask, didn’t God make us all like that? The Catechism of the Catholic Church attempts to resolve the problem by appealing to the “greater good” of the Incarnation and Redemption – a response which I find unsatisfactory, since (as Blessed John Duns Scotus argued) there was nothing to stop God from becoming incarnate even if Adam had never sinned.

For normal human beings, their personal identity is determined by their parentage, and by the gametes from which their bodies were created. (I would not be “me” if I had had a different mother or father, or if I had been conceived from a different sperm or egg.) But what if God’s act of specially electing a saint to glory also determines that individual’s personal identity? In that case, there is no way that God could have refrained from electing that saint without making him or her a different person. And if I am not elected in this fashion, but possess the power to choose between being saved and being damned, then I cannot coherently wish to have been predestined for eternal life without wishing myself to be a different person. It follows from this that while God could have made a world of human beings who were all preserved from sin, or who were all infallibly elected, not even God could make a world in which each of us is preserved from sin or infallibly elected. In that case, God is significantly less powerful than Christian theologians like to imagine.

In recent years, New Atheists have argued that the designs we find in living things are inept, and that if a Creator existed, He could have done a much better job of making these creatures. Creationists and Intelligent Design advocates reply that living things are subject to numerous design constraints, and that just because we can imagine a more elegant design does not mean that it is possible to create such a design. Picturability does not imply possibility. Recent scientific discoveries regarding the vertebrate eye (see here and here) have done much to vindicate this line of argument. (The same goes for the laryngeal nerve in the neck of the giraffe.) We are a long way here from the traditional view that God can make anything, as long as no logical contradiction is involved. Physical and nomological constraints (relating to the structure of matter, and the laws of Nature which obtain in our cosmos) also need to be taken into account.

An additional reason for rejecting the traditional notion of omnipotence is that it commits one to maintaining that God can bring about states of affairs which are not properly described. When someone claims, for instance, that God could make a horse capable of flying, like the mythical Pegasus, what, exactly, are we supposed to conceive of God doing here? And how would Pegasus fly, anyway? Are we supposed to imagine God working a miracle, by raising a horse in the air? But in that case, shouldn’t we really say that the horse is not flying (by its own natural power), but rather that God is holding it up? Or are we meant to imagine an alternative world, where the laws of Nature are changed so as to allow horses to fly – in which case, should we call the creature in this alternate world a horse, or should we rather call it a shmorse? Or are we to suppose that God could come up with a physical design for a horse that would enable it to fly, even with the laws of Nature that hold in this world? But in that case, how do we know that such a design exists? There is not the slightest evidence for such a design, and aerodynamic considerations suggest that the enterprise of attaching natural wings that would allow an animal with the dimensions of a horse to fly, would be altogether unworkable.

Goodbye to omnibenevolence

Finally, the concept of God’s omnibenevolence needs to be tossed out, lock, stock and barrel. Theologians have always maintained, of course, that God could have made a world that was better than the one He did, simply by adding a few extra bells and whistles. There is no “best possible world,” as the philosopher Leibniz falsely imagined. But that does not prevent God from making a world which is free from all natural and moral evil – which raises the obvious question of why an omnibenevolent Deity would create such a world as ours. One traditional answer, given by St. Augustine in his Enchiridion, Chapter III, is that God allows evil for the sake of a “greater good”: “For the Omnipotent God, whom even the heathen acknowledge as the Supreme Power over all, would not allow any evil in his works, unless in his omnipotence and goodness, as the Supreme Good, he is able to bring forth good out of evil.” I think its time to candidly acknowledge, as Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has already done, that this kind of talk simply won’t wash:

Being infinitely sufficient in Himself, God had no need of a passage through sin and death to manifest His glory in His creatures or to join them perfectly to Himself. This is why it is misleading (however soothing it may be) to say that the drama of fall and redemption will make the final state of things more glorious than it might otherwise have been. No less metaphysically incoherent – though immeasurably more vile – is the suggestion that God requires suffering and death to reveal certain of his attributes (capricious cruelty, perhaps? morbid indifference? a twisted sense of humor?). It is precisely sin, suffering, and death that blind us to God’s true nature…

I do not believe we Christians are obliged – or even allowed – to look upon the devastation visited upon the coasts of the Indian Ocean and to console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery.

But as KeithS has pointed out, there are problems with Hart’s own resolution of the problem of evil:

So in Hart’s bizarre world, we have a God who supposedly hates evil and suffering, yet chooses to permit them — and somehow this is all okay because it’s only temporary. Good will triumph in the end.

KeithS suggested that the problem of evil would be soluble if Christians simply acknowledged that God isn’t omnipotent or perfectly benevolent, but noted that Christians continue to “cling to a view of God that has long since been falsified.”

So I’d like to make a proposal of my own. In the first place, I’d like to propose that God is benevolent only in relation to the persons whom He decides to create. “Prior to” His act of creation, God is not benevolent at all. Thus when deciding what kind of world to create, God makes no attempt to choose the best one, or even a perfect one (i.e. one free from evil). Only after having chosen a particular world (for reasons best known to Himself) can we speak of God as being benevolent to His creatures.

In the second place, I’d like to propose that God’s benevolence to His sentient and sapient creatures is not unrestricted. After all, He allows His own creatures to be tortured to death, on occasion. Nevertheless, God is perfectly capable of setting limits to the amount of pain we have to put up with (thankfully, none of us has to suffer one million years of torture), of healing whatever wounds (physical and psychic) His tortured creatures have endured, and of bestowing the gift of immortality upon His sentient and sapient creatures (provided that they do not spurn it). Thus according to the picture I am sketching, God is ultimately benevolent, but not omnibenevolent. On this side of eternity, God’s benevolence is quite modest – but we can at least console ourselves with the thought that life could be much, much more painful than it is.

Finally, I’d like to point out that Christians have never referred to God in their prayers as omnibenevolent, but rather as all-loving. God loves each and every one of us with a steadfast, unshakable love which is greater than any of us can possibly imagine. The only kind of love we can compare to God’s love, in its steadfastness, is parental love. And most importantly, what God loves is we ourselves, and not our feelings. Thus God has no interest in maximizing the level of euphoria in the world – whether it be the aggregate level or the average level – because God’s parental commitment is to us, and not our states of mind. Being a loving Father, God naturally wants what is ultimately best for us, but He does not necessarily want us to enjoy a pain-free journey to our ultimate destination.

These proposals of mine have significant implications for the problem of evil. On the Judeo-Christian view, each and every human person is a being of infinite and irreplaceable value, loved by God. Two infinities cannot be meaningfully added to yield a greater infinity; hence a world with more people would not be a “better” world. What’s more, even wicked people are beings of infinite and irreplaceable value; hence a world with kinder people would not be a “better” world, but merely a world where people existed in a better state. Thus I would suggest that one reason why God tolerates evil acts (such as acts of rape or murder) is that there are some individuals in our world who would never have come into existence, were it not for these evil acts having been performed. The same logic can be applied to natural disasters: think of a man and a woman, living in neighboring towns, who both lose their families in a terrible earthquake, but are brought together in the aftermath of the quake, and who decide to get married, settle down and raise a family of their own. Such occurrences are by no means uncommon. Since the creation of any human being is good in an unqualified sense, God may decide to tolerate natural or moral evils, if doing so enables individuals to come into existence who would not have done so otherwise. Please note that I’m not saying He must, but merely that He may.

Fair enough; nevertheless, the skeptic might urge, the world is still a pretty awful place, and arguably much worse than it needs to be. Most natural and moral evils don’t result in the creation of new sentient or sapient beings, after all. There seems to be a lot of gratuitous evil in the world. Why is this so?

The Fall – and why it is needed to explain the mess we’re in

Traditionally, Christians have appealed to the doctrine of the Fall of our first parents at the dawn of human history, in order to explain why God allows these senseless evils to continue. John Henry Newman eloquently argued for this doctrine in his Apologia pro Vita Sua (Longmans, Green & Co., London, revised edition, 1865, chapter 5, pp. 242-243):

I can only answer, that either there is no Creator, or this living society of men is in a true sense discarded from His presence. Did I see a boy of good make and mind, with the tokens on him of a refined nature, cast upon the world without provision, unable to say whence he came, his birthplace or his family connexions, I should conclude that there was some mystery connected with his history, and that he was one, of whom, from one cause or other, his parents were ashamed. Thus only should I be able to account for the contrast between the promise and the condition of his being. And so I argue about the world;— if there be a God, since there is a God, the human race is implicated in some terrible aboriginal calamity. It is out of joint with the purposes of its Creator. This is a fact, a fact as true as the fact of its existence; and thus the doctrine of what is theologically called original sin becomes to me almost as certain as that the world exists, and as the existence of God.

In their recent book, Adam and the Genome, geneticist Dennis Venema and New Testament scholar Scott McKnight have marshaled an impressive array of converging scientific evidence, indicating that the human population has probably never fallen below 10,000 individuals. That certain puts paid to literalistic interpretations of the Fall, but as Denis Alexander has described in his book, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, one can still defend some notion of a Fall at the dawn of human history. Here’s how he outlines one possible approach to the Fall (although it’s not his favorite):

In the first type of approach (which has many variants), some people in Africa, following the emergence of anatomically modern humanity, became aware of God’s existence, power and calling upon their lives and responded to their new-found knowledge of him in love and obedience, in authentic relationship with God. However, they subsequently turned their back on the light that they had received and went their own way, leading to human autonomy and a broken relationship with God (“sin”). The emphasis in this type of speculation is on historical process – relationships built and broken over many generations.

My own belief is that God bestowed upon our first parents the responsibility for deciding the scope of Divine providence in ordinary human affairs. In their pride, our first parents chose personal autonomy, knowing that it would entail death and suffering for the entire human race: basically, they told God to butt out of everyday human affairs, leaving Him free to intervene only for very special reasons. To skeptics who would object that God should never have given such enormous responsibilities to our first parents in the first place, I would suggest that it is simply impossible for God to make intelligent beings without offering them an allotted sphere or domain in which they can legitimately exercise their freedom: that is what makes them who they are. As the first parents of the human race, our first parents had to have the responsibility for deciding whether they wanted the human race to be protected by God’s Providence or whether to reject God and go it alone.

As a Christian, I believe that God is just and merciful. I do not believe that it was unjust of God to test the human race at the beginning of human history; but I will acknowledge that in order to make sense of the terrible consequences of that fateful test, we need to maintain a view of history which sounds very strange to modern ears – instead of a gradual ascent to human self-awareness, as we might suppose, there was a First Contact between human creatures and their Creator. We need to envisage this as a cosmic, Miltonian drama, with our first parents as larger-than-life characters who enjoyed an intimacy and familiarity with God which we can only dream of, and who were given the enormous responsibility of custodianship over the lives of their future descendants. It may seem incomprehensible to us that they would give up their relationship with a God Who could satisfy all their needs, in favor of a death-and-violence ridden world like ours, but what they gained (in their own eyes) was the freedom to live as they chose. This, then, is why we’re in the mess we’re in. How long it will continue, I have no idea.

For those readers who would like a theological explanation of animal suffering, I would recommend Jon Garvey’s excellent online book, God’s Good Earth.

The problem of evil: A summary

We have seen that in order to make sense of the evil in the world, we need to abandon the notion of an omniscient God Who knows all counterfactuals and all possibilities, and Who knows what we do without needing to be informed by us. Rather, we should simply say that God (timelessly) knows everything we do, by constantly watching us. We also need to abandon the notion of an omnipotent God Who can do anything that’s logically possible. It turns out that there are a number of constraints which God is subject to, which prevent Him from creating any old world that we can imagine, and that prevent Him from having created us in a perfect world where no-one ever sinned. Furthermore, we need to abandon the notion that God is omnibenevolent. Christians have never worshiped an omnibenevolent Deity. Rather, the God they worship is a Parent Who loves us personally, and Who will never stop loving us. Such a God may however be willing to allow His creatures to be subjected to a great degree of suffering in the short term. He can only be called “benevolent” from a long-term perspective, insofar as He has prepared us for eternity with Him.

Finally, the sheer pervasiveness of the suffering in this world points to what Newman referred to as “some terrible aboriginal calamity” at the dawn of humanity, in which the entire human race paid the price for the proud decision made by our first parents to isolate themselves from God’s benevolent protection, for the sake of pursuing what they perceived as independence and freedom. God did not know that they would make that choice, but He gave them the power to decide the fate of the human race, and to “turn off the lights” in our world until God started turning them back on again, culminating in His Revelation of Himself to us 2,000 years ago in a manger in Bethlehem.

To sum up: the Christian view of history is capable of being cogently defended, provided Christians are willing to remove the theological barnacles that have attached themselves to its system of belief, and abandon the “three omnis,” in favor of a more intimate but less extravagant notion of God.

1,030 thoughts on “The Christian God and the Problem of Evil

  1. Alan:

    You’re overlooking the ultimate reward. Heaven!

    keiths:

    Um, no, Alan, and we’ve covered that already.

    Alan:

    You’ve disproved Heaven?

    That’s as stupid as some of the things Mung has said in this thread.

  2. keiths:

    How is beauty a sign of love, when you don’t know, and can’t show, that the beauty was created for our benefit?

    vjtorley:

    First of all: if it wasn’t created for our benefit, then for whose benefit was it created? Alec the Alpha Centaurian’s? I’m not being flippant here: as far as we can tell, we’re the only intelligent, self-aware beings in the cosmos.

    Well, as an atheist, I obviously don’t think it was created by God in the first place. But even within a theistic framework, you’re overlooking an obvious alternative: that God created the beauty for his own benefit. (Recall the Genesis narrative in which God repeatedly pauses to admire his handiwork and to declare it “good”.) In that case it would not be a sign of his love for us.

  3. keiths: But even within a theistic framework, you’re overlooking an obvious alternative: that God created the beauty for his own benefit. (Recall the Genesis narrative in which God repeatedly pauses to admire his handiwork and to declare it “good”.) In that case it would not be a sign of his love for us.

    Even if God made things beautiful for his own benefit (whatever that could possibly mean), it doesn’t follow that it is not a sign of his love for us. In addition, the narrative seems to clearly indicate that it was good in that it was fit for its intended purpose, which was for man.

  4. Mung,

    Even if God made things beautiful for his own benefit (whatever that could possibly mean), it doesn’t follow that it is not a sign of his love for us.

    That isn’t the point. I’m not trying to show that the beauty wasn’t created for our benefit. I’m showing that Vincent’s argument doesn’t establish that it was.

    Look at Vincent’s argument again:

    First of all: if it wasn’t created for our benefit, then for whose benefit was it created? Alec the Alpha Centaurian’s? I’m not being flippant here: as far as we can tell, we’re the only intelligent, self-aware beings in the cosmos.

    He’s overlooking the obvious fact that in the theistic framework, “Alec the Alpha Centaurian” isn’t the only other potential “consumer” of beauty. God himself qualifies.

  5. keiths: He’s overlooking the obvious fact that in the theistic framework, “Alec the Alpha Centaurian” isn’t the only other potential “consumer” of beauty. God himself qualifies.

    Well, whether God is a “consumer” of beauty seems to me to be a theological question rather than an evidential one, so I’ll leave it at that. 🙂

  6. Patrick seems to think that I must accept the atheistic view of the world, and that if I refuse to accept that picture of the world that I am being dishonest. But I am not an atheist, and why I should accept Patrick’s view of the world is a mystery.

    That I should not be allowed to question underlying assumptions is simply contrary to the goals of this site. Yet that’s what Patrick demands. Patrick’s demands are unreasonable.

    See this post for remarkable parallels.

  7. Mung,

    That I should not be allowed to question underlying assumptions is simply contrary to the goals of this site. Yet that’s what Patrick demands. Patrick’s demands are unreasonable.

    I think you’re making shit up again. Link or quote, please, to where Patrick “demands” that you not be allowed to question assumptions.

  8. Mung,

    So, keiths, what do you think of van Inwagen’s response?

    Which one? You do realize there’s more than one, right?

    Have you read the book, Mung?

  9. Mung,

    Well, whether God is a “consumer” of beauty seems to me to be a theological question rather than an evidential one, so I’ll leave it at that.

    Vincent’s “who else could be the beneficiary?” argument depends on God not being a “consumer” of beauty.

  10. vjtorley:

    And what about the child in the picture, and for that matter, the child’s parents? I’d wager none of them is an atheist. Ask yourself: why? Priestcraft? Poverty? Illiteracy? Those are patronizing explanations, which can all be rephrased: “They’re stupid; we’re enlightened.”

    You think that pointing out poverty and illiteracy amounts to calling people “stupid”? Jesus, Vincent.

  11. I’m not surprised at all that religiosity is higher in countries with big problems. If you’re getting crapped on in this life, it’s natural to hope for recompense in the next — even if that hope is unrealistic.

  12. Patrick: You could start by demonstrating the irrationality of what keiths wrote:

    Why can a dog eat the head of a living baby? There is no loving God to stop it.

    Mung: Notice the appeal to an entity that DOES NOT EXIST to EXPLAIN an event in the world. That’s irrational.

    Not really.

    Q: “Why did a school bus full of Sunday School children drive over the cliff? A strong guardrail should have prevented that.”

    A: “There’s no guardrail on that road.”

    Notice how an entity that doesn’t exist is used to explain an event in the world?

    Same thing with a non existent God not stopping the dog.

  13. davemullenix,

    Q: “Why did a school bus full of Sunday School children drive over the cliff? A strong guardrail should have prevented that.”

    A: “There’s no guardrail on that road.”

    Notice how an entity that doesn’t exist is used to explain an event in the world?

    Same thing with a non existent God not stopping the dog.

    Mung is making a very basic error here. His objection would make sense only if we were appealing to nonexistent things as if they existed.

    If we were claiming that a nonexistent guardrail stopped a car from going over a cliff, or that a nonexistent God stopped a dog from eating a baby’s head, then Mung’s objection would make sense. We aren’t doing that, of course.

  14. keiths: I think you’re making shit up again. Link or quote, please, to where Patrick “demands” that you not be allowed to question assumptions.

    Start with this one, where he asserts that I have not addressed the argument.

    Patrick: In theory you could. In practice you have yet to do so.

    And this one, where I am accused of not addressing your actual statements.

    Patrick: You’re still just commenting without engaging his actual statements. I’m beginning to think you’re here for the attention you get rather than to participate in any meaningful way.

    And of course, this one.

    Patrick: ATTENTION MUNG! This is what you need to address directly if you think you can refute keiths. Let’s see what you’ve got.

    He’s like a broken record with it. If I’m not directly addressing your argument [whatever that means] I’m not addressing it at all.

  15. In none of those comments does Patrick demand that you not be allowed to question assumptions.

    As I said, you’re just making shit up. What is wrong with you, Mung?

  16. keiths: Which one? You do realize there’s more than one, right?

    If van Inwagen has more than one response to the evidential argument from evil I am not aware of the others, though it would not surprise me, as there are multiple different evidential arguments from evil. We still don’t know which one yours is, by the way.

    Have you read the book, Mung?

    Not in it’s entirety.

  17. keiths: In none of those comments does Patrick demand that you not be allowed to question assumptions.

    Then what is he demanding? Sure seems demanding to me. 🙂

  18. keiths: Vincent’s “who else could be the beneficiary?” argument depends on God not being a “consumer” of beauty.

    To say that God is a ‘consumer’ of anything implies that in God there is something that is lacking. I’m pretty sure that Vincent would deny that God lacks anything relevant to good or beauty.

  19. keiths: I’m not surprised at all that religiosity is higher in countries with big problems. If you’re getting crapped on in this life, it’s natural to hope for recompense in the next — even if that hope is unrealistic.

    We’ll assume then that your lack of religiosity is due to your not being crapped on. Rich people don’t need God and all that. So your experience of evil seems to be dependent on the suffering of others.

  20. davemullenix: Notice how an entity that doesn’t exist is used to explain an event in the world?

    I’ve noticed and commented a number of times. The lack of a guardrail caused the bus to drive over the cliff. It’s a nonsensical claim and no one would buy it.

    They would be looking for other causes. Drunk driver. Bus malfunction. Slippery road. Oncoming traffic. Pretty much anything but blaming it on the absence of some entity.

    Also, there could be a guardrail and the bus could still go over the cliff. So why assume that a guardrail would have prevented it? That again appeals to ‘facts’ not in evidence.

  21. keiths: If we were claiming that a nonexistent guardrail stopped a car from going over a cliff, or that a nonexistent God stopped a dog from eating a baby’s head, then Mung’s objection would make sense. We aren’t doing that, of course.

    LoL. No, you’re claiming the lack of a guardrail caused the car to go over the cliff, which is equally as absurd. The missing guardrail is not responsible. It’s not there. It can’t cause anything. It can’t cause a car to stop, and it can’t prevent it from continuing on its path. It’s not there. It doesn’t exist. It neither causes nor prevents.

    The objection makes perfect sense.

  22. davemullenix,

    Mung’s other objection doesn’t work any better:

    For example, I don’t know how to refute the claim that dog ate baby head because there was no God there to prevent it. There’ was also no lighting strike there, no heart attack there, nor any number of other things that could be imagined the absence of which could be used to “explain” something that took place by their contribution to it’s failure to take place.

    This is extremely easy to understand, so it’s hard to believe that anyone here — yes, even including Mung — can’t get it.

    The fact that multiple causal factors lead to an event does not mean that it’s illegitimate to refer to a single relevant factor in an explanation. The accident wouldn’t have happened if no one had manufactured the bus in the first place. It also wouldn’t have happened if our solar system had never formed. Are we obliged to mention those factors in every explanation of the tragedy? Obviously not.

    Mung can’t be this stupid. Can he?

  23. Vincent,

    You could hardly have a God Who agreed not to intervene in human affairs for Adam, but suddenly reversed His decision for Seth. Come on. At some point, a final decision is needed: the human race has to jump one way or the other.

    Why? God supposedly deals with us as individuals at other times, such as when meting out salvation. Why can’t he deal with us as individuals when negotiating his role in our lives? He’s God, after all.

    This is an obvious objection, and I know you’d have been smart enough to see it if your religious beliefs weren’t involved.

    Look at what religion is doing to your mind, Vincent.

  24. keiths: The fact that multiple causal factors lead to an event does not mean that it’s illegitimate to refer to a single relevant factor in an explanation.

    A relevant factor needs to be relevant and a factor. Not an irrelevant non-factor. I’m objecting to your appeals to non-relevant non-factors which are not the cause of anything. Those appeals are irrational. At one time in this discussions you even acknowledged as much. What happened?

  25. Keiths: “Mung can’t be this stupid. Can he?”

    Mung’s been displaying psychological problems for at least fifteen years. I used to see his posts on the old ARN board and he was the same Cartman-like figure even then. In fact, I think he was a factor in ARN removing their forums.

    See Wikipedia’s description of Cartman and it fits Mung to a tee, except Cartman isn’t tedious and boring.

  26. Mung: A relevant factor needs to be relevant and a factor. Not an irrelevant non-factor. I’m objecting to your appeals to non-relevant non-factors which are not the cause of anything. Those appeals are irrational. At one time in this discussions you even acknowledged as much. What happened?

    Mung, you’re not that stupid. Nobody’s claiming that God caused the dog to eat the baby’s head or the bus to go over the cliff. He’s charged with not preventing either occurrence and the simplest explanation for this derilection of moral duty is that he doesn’t exist.

  27. davemullenix: Mung, you’re not that stupid. Nobody’s claiming that God caused the dog to eat the baby’s head or the bus to go over the cliff.

    Yes, I know. The arguments have been even dumber than that. Such as arguing that a guardrail that did not exist caused a bus to go over a cliff. I’m sorry, but that is just pure stupid.

  28. davemullenix: Mung, you’re not that stupid.Nobody’s claiming that God caused the dog to eat the baby’s head or the bus to go over the cliff.He’s charged with not preventing either occurrence and the simplest explanation for this derilection of moral duty is that he doesn’t exist.

    You’re getting to the essence of the issue here. If we model a world without any gods interfering in anything, we basically get the world we live in. Accordingly, if we model a world with gods, our best fit between model and reality is if the gods in our model never do anything.

    So to find our gods, we must ignore all the instances where they are supposed to have done something but did not, and carefully select those instances where we like the outcome, and attribute it to our gods. This process has successfully determined the existence of every one of the thousands of gods so far invented.

  29. Mung,

    The arguments have been even dumber than that. Such as arguing that a guardrail that did not exist caused a bus to go over a cliff. I’m sorry, but that is just pure stupid.

    It requires weapons-grade stupidity to think, as you do, that the following two statements are equivalent:

    Statement #1:

    The students, who otherwise would have been saved, perished because there was no guardrail to prevent the bus from going over the cliff.

    Statement #2:

    The guardrail, which doesn’t exist, caused the bus to go over the cliff, killing the students.

  30. keiths: It requires weapons-grade stupidity to think, as you seem to, that the following two statements are equivalent:

    I never said they were equivalent.

    For example, the first statement is tautological:

    The students would not have perished if they had not perished. The bus would not have gone over the cliff had it not gone over the cliff. If a guardrail had prevented the bus from going over the cliff, the bus would not have gone over the cliff. Well, duh.

    The first statement introduces a number of hypotheticals which would only turn out to be true of we beg the question. Like I said, irrational.

    Assume the presence of a guardrail. It doesn’t follow that no student would have been killed. Not unless we just assume it. Declare it to be so. And beg the question.

    Assume the presence of a guardrail. It doesn’t follow that the bus would not have gone over the cliff anyways. Not unless we just assume it. Declare it to be so. And beg the question.

    keiths, I think I’ve been giving you too much credit. When I first pointed out how irrational your ‘explanation’ was you changed your explanation. So now you’ve changed your mind?

    keiths’ modified explanation:

    keiths: The dog thought the baby’s head looked tasty, and ate it.

    The bus couldn’t fly. Neither could the students. Gravity “carried” the day.

  31. keiths: Weapons-grade stupidity.

    Is that your final answer?

    keiths: The pig went over the cliff and died because there was no fence there to prevent it.

    Mung: The pig went over the cliff and died because pigs can’t fly.

  32. keiths: Dear Jesus,

    You must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel when you accepted Mung as a follower. I know you’re all about “the least among you”, but even you must have a lower limit.

    That’s one thing that’s great about Christianity. There is no lower limit. God’s grace extends to all.

    So earlier you asked about my experience of good. So I’ll share one. I was a thief. A shoplifter. Stole all the time. For years.

    Then I became a Christian. Had one of those “born again” experiences you hear about. My shoplifting stopped. Right then, right there. Gone.

    I did shoplift once some years later. But I ended up going back to the store and admitting what I had done, returned the merchandise, and paid for it as well.

    I consider that a miraculous change for the good. The change coincided with the instant I became a Christian. A true conversion.

    Now my question to keiths is, what is your personal experience of evil?

  33. And the only explanation that occurs to you is a supernatural one? Seriously?

    You have a lot to learn, Mung, but no apparent inclination.

  34. Mung: I was a thief. A shoplifter. Stole all the time. For years.

    Then I became a Christian. Had one of those “born again” experiences you hear about. My shoplifting stopped. Right then, right there. Gone.

    How come Jesus only works his magic after the damage is done?

    “I started drinking, beating my wife, beating my kids, burned the house down, ran down three old folk in my truck….but then Jesus rescued me!”

  35. And Jesus apparently left the job half done, because Mung is still compulsively lying, even in this very thread (see his false accusation against Patrick above).

    But it was a miracle, I tell you! A miracle!

  36. From Flint: ‘ If we model a world without any gods interfering in anything, we basically get the world we live in.’

    Can someone send this to Vincent, Mung etc etc etc.

  37. keiths: And the only explanation that occurs to you is a supernatural one? Seriously?

    I don’t see how that follows from anything I wrote. And you seem to be missing the point anyways. Evidence for good. It’s all around us. I get to take it into account too, don’t I?

  38. keiths: But it was a miracle, I tell you! A miracle!

    I didn’t say that I stopped lying. I said that I stopped shoplifting. 🙂

    So maybe I am lying about stopping shoplifting!

    ETA: Maybe I am lying about ever being a thief in the first place!

  39. keiths: I don’t think that would surprise anyone.

    Yes, well, it’s not the opinions that matter. It’s the facts. And even you seem to admit that facts matter.

  40. The logical form of the problem is the traditional way the problem of evil has been posed for centuries. According to the logical problem, theistic systems which espouse divine omnipotence and benevolence and the existence of evil contradict themselves.

    – John S. Feinberg

    Both Patrick and keiths appear to be confused. Patrick seems to think the problem is the logical problem, keiths denies his argument has the nature of the logical problem, yet Patrick appeals to statements by keiths in support of his [allegedly] mistaken notion that the problem is the logical problem.

    Far be it from keiths to post any correction that might clearly contradict anything Patrick says. It’s the way the game is played here at “The Skeptical Zone.”

  41. Mung: “Then I became a Christian. Had one of those “born again” experiences you hear about. My shoplifting stopped. Right then, right there. Gone.”

    Most of us put aside selfish and immoral behavior like that when we grow up. Some find Jesus instead.

  42. davemullenix: Most of us put aside selfish and immoral behavior like that when we grow up. Some find Jesus instead.

    So shoplifting isn’t immoral, it’s merely immature. Is that it? I was never arrested or charged. Perhaps I should have kept with it, eh?

    I fail to see how your observation fails to undermine the idea that shoplifting is wrong, that people ought not do it, and that it’s good if they cease their thieving ways. Perhaps we can appeal to a Satanic figure that doesn’t exist to explain why people stop shoplifting. After all, if Satan really existed, he would have intervened.

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