The Christian God and the Problem of Evil

Both Mung and KeithS have asked me to weigh in on the question of whether the existence of evil counts as a good argument against Christianity, as KeithS has maintained in a recent post, so I shall oblige.

It is important to understand that the problem of evil is not an argument against the existence of God or gods, but against what KeithS calls the Christian God (actually, the God of classical theism), Who is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. KeithS succinctly formulates the problem as follows:

Let’s say I claim that an omniGod named Frank exists — omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Suppose I also claim that Frank regards seahorses as the absolute height of evil. The world contains a lot of seahorses, and Frank, being omnipotent, has the power to wipe them off the face of the earth. Why doesn’t he? Why does he countenance a world full of seahorses?

KeithS emphasizes that it is not enough for the Christian to show that God is on balance benevolent. Rather, the Christian needs to defend the claim that God is omnibenevolent:

The Christian claim is that God is omnibenevolent — as benevolent as it is logically possible to be. Finding that the items on the “good” side of the ledger outweigh those on the “bad” side — if that were the case — would not establish God’s omnibenevolence at all.

Finally, KeithS provides his own take on the problem of evil:

The problem of evil remains as much of a problem as ever for Christians. Yet there are obvious solutions to the problem that fit the evidence and are perfectly reasonable: a) accept that God doesn’t exist, or b) accept that God isn’t omnipotent, or c) accept that God isn’t perfectly benevolent. Despite the availability of these obvious solutions, most Christians will choose to cling to a view of God that has long since been falsified.

He even suggests how he would resolve the problem if he were a theist (emphasis mine – VJT):

Suppose God hates evil and suffering but is too weak to defeat them, at least at the moment. Then any such instances can be explained by God’s weakness.

It addresses the problem of evil without sacrificing theism. I’m amazed that more theists don’t seize on this sort of resolution. They’re too greedy in their theology, too reluctant to give up the omnis.

I think KeithS is onto something here. In fact, I’d like to ditch the conventional Christian views of God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence. It’s time for an overhaul.

Why a God Who constantly watches His creatures cannot be omniscient

First, the conventional notion of God’s omniscience needs to be jettisoned. As I argued in an earlier post on the problem of evil, the problem of evil depends on the assumption that God’s knowledge of our choices (and of Adam and Eve’s choices) is logically prior to those choices. In that post, I upheld the contrary view (defended in our own time by C.S. Lewis), that God is like a watcher on a high hill: He timelessly knows everything that we choose to do, but His knowledge is logically subsequent to the choices we make, which means that He doesn’t know what we will do “before” He decides to make us. I have to acknowledge, however, that this is very much a minority view among the Christian Fathers and/or Doctors of the Church, and I can only think of two who argued for this view: namely, the somewhat heterodox theologian Origen (185-254 A.D.) and possibly, the Christian philosopher Boethius (c. 480- c. 524 A.D. – although his own personal views on the subject remain in dispute, as he elsewhere seems to reject the “watcher on the hill” analogy which he develops in Book V, Prose 6 of his Consolation of Philosophy, in which he declares that God “sees all things in an eternal present just as humans see things in a non-eternal present.”) Whether they be predestinationists or Molinists, the vast majority of Christian theologians who are orthodox – and I’m not counting “open theists” here – maintain that God’s knowledge of our choices is logically prior to those choices. I haven’t taken a straw poll of lay Christian believers, but judging from Christians I’m acquainted with, the “watcher on the hill” view of God remains a popular way of reconciling His foreknowledge with human free will, to this day. I believe the common folk are wiser than the theologians here.

Why are theologians so reluctant to accept the Boethian solution? In a nutshell, because they see it as detracting from God’s sovereignty, as it makes Him dependent on His creatures for information about what is going on in the world. God has to (timelessly) observe us in order to know what we are getting up to. I have to say I don’t see the problem here, provided that God freely and timelessly chooses to rely on His creatures for His knowledge of what they do. If He wants to impose that limitation on Himself, who are we to stop Him?

But if God’s knowledge of our choices is (timelessly) obtained from observing those choices, then we can no longer say that God knows exactly what I would do in every possible situation. On the Boethian account, God does not possess counterfactual knowledge: He knows everything I do, but not everything I would do, in all possible situations. Why not? For one thing, in many situations, there simply is no fact of the matter as to what I would do. What would I do if I won $10,000,000? I don’t know, and neither does God. Nor is this a bad thing: after all, if God knows exactly what I would do in every possible situation, then it makes no sense to say that in a given situation, I could have acted otherwise. (That, by the way, is why I find Molinism utterly nonsensical.)

And what about mathematics? Does God know the answer to every possible mathematical problem? I would argue that He doesn’t, as there are many branches of mathematics where the “rules of the game” are determined by the mathematicians theorizing in that area. In a different world, we would have had different mathematicians, and different branches of mathematics, with different rules. I see no reason to suppose that God knows all possible choices that could be made by all possible (as well as actual) persons.

The upshot of all this is that while God knows everything there is to know about His creatures, He is not omniscient. There are many counterfactuals that He doesn’t know, and there are many possibilities that He never contemplates, either. All we can say is that God knows everything about what we do (past, present and future), and that we can keep no secrets from Him.

Why God is a lot less powerful than many Christians think

Second, the traditional notion of God’s omnipotence needs to be discarded. On the classical view defended by St. Thomas Aquinas, God can do anything which it is logically possible for Him to do, as God. In recent years, however, the classical view has come under fire, from the Reformed theologian Alvin Plantinga, who refuted it using the humorous counter-example of a being whose nature allows him to do nothing but scratch his ear (which he does, making him omnipotent) in his book, God and other minds (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1967), and also from the Catholic philosopher Peter Geach, who sharply criticized the traditional view in an influential article titled “Omnipotence” (Philosophy 48 (1973): 7-20 – see here for a discussion). In his article, Geach argued that God is not omnipotent but almighty: since He maintains the world in existence, He has power over all things, but He does not have the power to do all things.

What relevance does this have to the problem of evil? On the traditional view of God’s omnipotence, God could have preserved each of us from sin throughout our earthly lives, without violating our free will, as he did with Jesus and (according to Catholics and Orthodox) the Virgin Mary: we would still have possessed full libertarian freedom when choosing between alternative goods, but not when choosing between good and evil. And there are many Protestants who believe that individuals who are “born again” are infallibly elected by God, so that even if they sin, their final salvation is Divinely guaranteed. Why, one might ask, didn’t God make us all like that? The Catechism of the Catholic Church attempts to resolve the problem by appealing to the “greater good” of the Incarnation and Redemption – a response which I find unsatisfactory, since (as Blessed John Duns Scotus argued) there was nothing to stop God from becoming incarnate even if Adam had never sinned.

For normal human beings, their personal identity is determined by their parentage, and by the gametes from which their bodies were created. (I would not be “me” if I had had a different mother or father, or if I had been conceived from a different sperm or egg.) But what if God’s act of specially electing a saint to glory also determines that individual’s personal identity? In that case, there is no way that God could have refrained from electing that saint without making him or her a different person. And if I am not elected in this fashion, but possess the power to choose between being saved and being damned, then I cannot coherently wish to have been predestined for eternal life without wishing myself to be a different person. It follows from this that while God could have made a world of human beings who were all preserved from sin, or who were all infallibly elected, not even God could make a world in which each of us is preserved from sin or infallibly elected. In that case, God is significantly less powerful than Christian theologians like to imagine.

In recent years, New Atheists have argued that the designs we find in living things are inept, and that if a Creator existed, He could have done a much better job of making these creatures. Creationists and Intelligent Design advocates reply that living things are subject to numerous design constraints, and that just because we can imagine a more elegant design does not mean that it is possible to create such a design. Picturability does not imply possibility. Recent scientific discoveries regarding the vertebrate eye (see here and here) have done much to vindicate this line of argument. (The same goes for the laryngeal nerve in the neck of the giraffe.) We are a long way here from the traditional view that God can make anything, as long as no logical contradiction is involved. Physical and nomological constraints (relating to the structure of matter, and the laws of Nature which obtain in our cosmos) also need to be taken into account.

An additional reason for rejecting the traditional notion of omnipotence is that it commits one to maintaining that God can bring about states of affairs which are not properly described. When someone claims, for instance, that God could make a horse capable of flying, like the mythical Pegasus, what, exactly, are we supposed to conceive of God doing here? And how would Pegasus fly, anyway? Are we supposed to imagine God working a miracle, by raising a horse in the air? But in that case, shouldn’t we really say that the horse is not flying (by its own natural power), but rather that God is holding it up? Or are we meant to imagine an alternative world, where the laws of Nature are changed so as to allow horses to fly – in which case, should we call the creature in this alternate world a horse, or should we rather call it a shmorse? Or are we to suppose that God could come up with a physical design for a horse that would enable it to fly, even with the laws of Nature that hold in this world? But in that case, how do we know that such a design exists? There is not the slightest evidence for such a design, and aerodynamic considerations suggest that the enterprise of attaching natural wings that would allow an animal with the dimensions of a horse to fly, would be altogether unworkable.

Goodbye to omnibenevolence

Finally, the concept of God’s omnibenevolence needs to be tossed out, lock, stock and barrel. Theologians have always maintained, of course, that God could have made a world that was better than the one He did, simply by adding a few extra bells and whistles. There is no “best possible world,” as the philosopher Leibniz falsely imagined. But that does not prevent God from making a world which is free from all natural and moral evil – which raises the obvious question of why an omnibenevolent Deity would create such a world as ours. One traditional answer, given by St. Augustine in his Enchiridion, Chapter III, is that God allows evil for the sake of a “greater good”: “For the Omnipotent God, whom even the heathen acknowledge as the Supreme Power over all, would not allow any evil in his works, unless in his omnipotence and goodness, as the Supreme Good, he is able to bring forth good out of evil.” I think its time to candidly acknowledge, as Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has already done, that this kind of talk simply won’t wash:

Being infinitely sufficient in Himself, God had no need of a passage through sin and death to manifest His glory in His creatures or to join them perfectly to Himself. This is why it is misleading (however soothing it may be) to say that the drama of fall and redemption will make the final state of things more glorious than it might otherwise have been. No less metaphysically incoherent – though immeasurably more vile – is the suggestion that God requires suffering and death to reveal certain of his attributes (capricious cruelty, perhaps? morbid indifference? a twisted sense of humor?). It is precisely sin, suffering, and death that blind us to God’s true nature…

I do not believe we Christians are obliged – or even allowed – to look upon the devastation visited upon the coasts of the Indian Ocean and to console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery.

But as KeithS has pointed out, there are problems with Hart’s own resolution of the problem of evil:

So in Hart’s bizarre world, we have a God who supposedly hates evil and suffering, yet chooses to permit them — and somehow this is all okay because it’s only temporary. Good will triumph in the end.

KeithS suggested that the problem of evil would be soluble if Christians simply acknowledged that God isn’t omnipotent or perfectly benevolent, but noted that Christians continue to “cling to a view of God that has long since been falsified.”

So I’d like to make a proposal of my own. In the first place, I’d like to propose that God is benevolent only in relation to the persons whom He decides to create. “Prior to” His act of creation, God is not benevolent at all. Thus when deciding what kind of world to create, God makes no attempt to choose the best one, or even a perfect one (i.e. one free from evil). Only after having chosen a particular world (for reasons best known to Himself) can we speak of God as being benevolent to His creatures.

In the second place, I’d like to propose that God’s benevolence to His sentient and sapient creatures is not unrestricted. After all, He allows His own creatures to be tortured to death, on occasion. Nevertheless, God is perfectly capable of setting limits to the amount of pain we have to put up with (thankfully, none of us has to suffer one million years of torture), of healing whatever wounds (physical and psychic) His tortured creatures have endured, and of bestowing the gift of immortality upon His sentient and sapient creatures (provided that they do not spurn it). Thus according to the picture I am sketching, God is ultimately benevolent, but not omnibenevolent. On this side of eternity, God’s benevolence is quite modest – but we can at least console ourselves with the thought that life could be much, much more painful than it is.

Finally, I’d like to point out that Christians have never referred to God in their prayers as omnibenevolent, but rather as all-loving. God loves each and every one of us with a steadfast, unshakable love which is greater than any of us can possibly imagine. The only kind of love we can compare to God’s love, in its steadfastness, is parental love. And most importantly, what God loves is we ourselves, and not our feelings. Thus God has no interest in maximizing the level of euphoria in the world – whether it be the aggregate level or the average level – because God’s parental commitment is to us, and not our states of mind. Being a loving Father, God naturally wants what is ultimately best for us, but He does not necessarily want us to enjoy a pain-free journey to our ultimate destination.

These proposals of mine have significant implications for the problem of evil. On the Judeo-Christian view, each and every human person is a being of infinite and irreplaceable value, loved by God. Two infinities cannot be meaningfully added to yield a greater infinity; hence a world with more people would not be a “better” world. What’s more, even wicked people are beings of infinite and irreplaceable value; hence a world with kinder people would not be a “better” world, but merely a world where people existed in a better state. Thus I would suggest that one reason why God tolerates evil acts (such as acts of rape or murder) is that there are some individuals in our world who would never have come into existence, were it not for these evil acts having been performed. The same logic can be applied to natural disasters: think of a man and a woman, living in neighboring towns, who both lose their families in a terrible earthquake, but are brought together in the aftermath of the quake, and who decide to get married, settle down and raise a family of their own. Such occurrences are by no means uncommon. Since the creation of any human being is good in an unqualified sense, God may decide to tolerate natural or moral evils, if doing so enables individuals to come into existence who would not have done so otherwise. Please note that I’m not saying He must, but merely that He may.

Fair enough; nevertheless, the skeptic might urge, the world is still a pretty awful place, and arguably much worse than it needs to be. Most natural and moral evils don’t result in the creation of new sentient or sapient beings, after all. There seems to be a lot of gratuitous evil in the world. Why is this so?

The Fall – and why it is needed to explain the mess we’re in

Traditionally, Christians have appealed to the doctrine of the Fall of our first parents at the dawn of human history, in order to explain why God allows these senseless evils to continue. John Henry Newman eloquently argued for this doctrine in his Apologia pro Vita Sua (Longmans, Green & Co., London, revised edition, 1865, chapter 5, pp. 242-243):

I can only answer, that either there is no Creator, or this living society of men is in a true sense discarded from His presence. Did I see a boy of good make and mind, with the tokens on him of a refined nature, cast upon the world without provision, unable to say whence he came, his birthplace or his family connexions, I should conclude that there was some mystery connected with his history, and that he was one, of whom, from one cause or other, his parents were ashamed. Thus only should I be able to account for the contrast between the promise and the condition of his being. And so I argue about the world;— if there be a God, since there is a God, the human race is implicated in some terrible aboriginal calamity. It is out of joint with the purposes of its Creator. This is a fact, a fact as true as the fact of its existence; and thus the doctrine of what is theologically called original sin becomes to me almost as certain as that the world exists, and as the existence of God.

In their recent book, Adam and the Genome, geneticist Dennis Venema and New Testament scholar Scott McKnight have marshaled an impressive array of converging scientific evidence, indicating that the human population has probably never fallen below 10,000 individuals. That certain puts paid to literalistic interpretations of the Fall, but as Denis Alexander has described in his book, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, one can still defend some notion of a Fall at the dawn of human history. Here’s how he outlines one possible approach to the Fall (although it’s not his favorite):

In the first type of approach (which has many variants), some people in Africa, following the emergence of anatomically modern humanity, became aware of God’s existence, power and calling upon their lives and responded to their new-found knowledge of him in love and obedience, in authentic relationship with God. However, they subsequently turned their back on the light that they had received and went their own way, leading to human autonomy and a broken relationship with God (“sin”). The emphasis in this type of speculation is on historical process – relationships built and broken over many generations.

My own belief is that God bestowed upon our first parents the responsibility for deciding the scope of Divine providence in ordinary human affairs. In their pride, our first parents chose personal autonomy, knowing that it would entail death and suffering for the entire human race: basically, they told God to butt out of everyday human affairs, leaving Him free to intervene only for very special reasons. To skeptics who would object that God should never have given such enormous responsibilities to our first parents in the first place, I would suggest that it is simply impossible for God to make intelligent beings without offering them an allotted sphere or domain in which they can legitimately exercise their freedom: that is what makes them who they are. As the first parents of the human race, our first parents had to have the responsibility for deciding whether they wanted the human race to be protected by God’s Providence or whether to reject God and go it alone.

As a Christian, I believe that God is just and merciful. I do not believe that it was unjust of God to test the human race at the beginning of human history; but I will acknowledge that in order to make sense of the terrible consequences of that fateful test, we need to maintain a view of history which sounds very strange to modern ears – instead of a gradual ascent to human self-awareness, as we might suppose, there was a First Contact between human creatures and their Creator. We need to envisage this as a cosmic, Miltonian drama, with our first parents as larger-than-life characters who enjoyed an intimacy and familiarity with God which we can only dream of, and who were given the enormous responsibility of custodianship over the lives of their future descendants. It may seem incomprehensible to us that they would give up their relationship with a God Who could satisfy all their needs, in favor of a death-and-violence ridden world like ours, but what they gained (in their own eyes) was the freedom to live as they chose. This, then, is why we’re in the mess we’re in. How long it will continue, I have no idea.

For those readers who would like a theological explanation of animal suffering, I would recommend Jon Garvey’s excellent online book, God’s Good Earth.

The problem of evil: A summary

We have seen that in order to make sense of the evil in the world, we need to abandon the notion of an omniscient God Who knows all counterfactuals and all possibilities, and Who knows what we do without needing to be informed by us. Rather, we should simply say that God (timelessly) knows everything we do, by constantly watching us. We also need to abandon the notion of an omnipotent God Who can do anything that’s logically possible. It turns out that there are a number of constraints which God is subject to, which prevent Him from creating any old world that we can imagine, and that prevent Him from having created us in a perfect world where no-one ever sinned. Furthermore, we need to abandon the notion that God is omnibenevolent. Christians have never worshiped an omnibenevolent Deity. Rather, the God they worship is a Parent Who loves us personally, and Who will never stop loving us. Such a God may however be willing to allow His creatures to be subjected to a great degree of suffering in the short term. He can only be called “benevolent” from a long-term perspective, insofar as He has prepared us for eternity with Him.

Finally, the sheer pervasiveness of the suffering in this world points to what Newman referred to as “some terrible aboriginal calamity” at the dawn of humanity, in which the entire human race paid the price for the proud decision made by our first parents to isolate themselves from God’s benevolent protection, for the sake of pursuing what they perceived as independence and freedom. God did not know that they would make that choice, but He gave them the power to decide the fate of the human race, and to “turn off the lights” in our world until God started turning them back on again, culminating in His Revelation of Himself to us 2,000 years ago in a manger in Bethlehem.

To sum up: the Christian view of history is capable of being cogently defended, provided Christians are willing to remove the theological barnacles that have attached themselves to its system of belief, and abandon the “three omnis,” in favor of a more intimate but less extravagant notion of God.

1,030 thoughts on “The Christian God and the Problem of Evil

  1. Patrick: Which raises some interesting questions about some bible stories, Noah’s flood in particular.

    Absolutely. The whole thing is just silly if taken seriously and/or literally because omni-anything immediately makes all the stories in the bible utterly ridiculous. Noah’s flood would be a complete and total absurdity if the god of the story were actually omnipotent. Why cause such a catastrophe to even one innocent animal or plant or grain of sand when such an entity could conceive of world without the evil components and poof – the world would be without evil components. It is totally irrational to believe such a story represents any kind of literal account.

  2. Think of all the pain and suffering you have gone through in your life. Do you consider it worth it? Or would you prefer that you had never been born?

    For me, it’s pretty easy: I don’t consider it “worth it”. Certainly having never been born would have be considerably easier. Not waking up when I “died” back when I was eight would have be significantly easier too. Has some of the suffering allowed me to enjoy a few things? Sure. Is that “better” or “worth it”? Meh…to me it’s been a draw.

  3. keiths,

    An omnibenevolent, omnipotent God will always act optimally.
    I have come to realize that God can be omnipotent but chooses not to be for one reason or another and most likely due to free will He has given to humans…
    There are numerous scriptures that indicate that God didn’t know things such as that Adam and Eve sinned… or where Adam was and who told him he was naked…etc

    Gen 3:10-11
    Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?

    I’m afraid I don’t have all the answers as I’m learning this stuff myself from my brother who is a Bible scholar but feeds me very little one issue at the time…
    I’m sorry guys, but he is not interested to comment on this blog… What can I do?

  4. keiths: fifth, earlier in the thread:

    theodicy is easy

    yep it’s extremely easy

    quote:

    Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
    (Rom 9:21-23)

    end quote:

    That took about 7 seconds 😉

    peace

  5. keiths: You think those are mutually exclusive?

    not mutually exclusive but certainly not synonymous or symbiotic

    keiths: Well, Jesus is just swimming in glory now, isn’t he?

    An atheist does not think Jesus is worthy of worship therefore God does not exist

    Is that really all you got

    LOL

    peace

  6. Robin: The implication of the definition of “omni”.

    you think “omni” means “no power whatsoever to choose”.

    That’s one jacked up dictionary you have there

    Robin: Without constraints, there’s no such thing as choice at all.

    So you agree with us Theists that God has a valid reason to constrain his actions in the world? Glad we cleared that up 😉

  7. J-Mac: An omnibenevolent, omnipotent God will always act optimally.
    I have come to realize that God can be omnipotent but chooses not to be for one reason or another and most likely due to free will He has given to humans…
    There are numerous scriptures that indicate that God didn’t know things such as that Adam and Eve sinned… or where Adam was and who told him he was naked…etc

    That would be omniscient then. Perhaps that was a narrative device.

  8. Patrick: You’re the one claiming your god is omnibenevolent. That claim is not supported by the available evidence.

    Oh Patrick you make me smile.

    I’m not claiming any thing at all

    It’s the proponent of the Logical problem that is making a claim. He claims that God’s existence is somehow incompatible with the presence of evil

    That claim has been totally defeated so now folks are retreating to

    I don’t like some things about the universe therefore God does not exist.

    It’s a totally vacuous and downright silly claim but that appears to be what they are going with.

    peace

  9. Patrick: Basically you need to demonstrate that this is the best of all possible worlds, that every moral and natural evil we observe is essential.

    I need to do nothing of the sort. I’m not the one presenting an argument.

    You need to demonstrate that there is no possible reason for God to allow evil to exist.

    Good luck with that

    peace

  10. Robin: For me, it’s pretty easy: I don’t consider it “worth it”.

    No one is forcing you to hang around. If you don’t think it’s worth it there are plenty ways to cash out.

    The last time I thought a movie wasn’t worth it I walked out of the theater

    I somehow think that when pressed you’d say that the good out weighs the bad at least a little bit. How else can you explain the fact that you are still here.

    peace

  11. I really like the idea that God allowed evil for some reason… so that this thingy should fill up the gaps in the the “scientific theories”, such as the origin of life and endosybiosis…
    Let’s thank Darwin for that…

  12. fifthmonarchyman:
    No one is forcing you to hang around. If you don’t think it’s worth it there are plenty ways to cash out.

    The last time I thought a movie wasn’t worth it I walked out of the theater

    I somehow think that when pressed you’d say that the good out weighs the bad at least a little bit. How else can you explain the fact that you are still here.

    Very compassionate ,fifth

  13. fifthmonarchyman: I need to do nothing of the sort. I’m not the one presenting an argument.

    You need to demonstrate that there is no possible reason for God to allow evil to exist.

    Good luck with that

    peace

    Patrick already has a possible reason, God if He exists is not All Good.

    Another might be God is an impersonal force .

    Another is human welfare is irrelevant to the greater good.

  14. fifth:

    No one is forcing you to hang around. If you don’t think it’s worth it there are plenty ways to cash out.

    newton:

    Very compassionate ,fifth

    I get the feeling that if this were the 1500s, fifth would be quite willing to facilitate Robin’s departure with some green wood and a stake.

  15. newton,

    Patrick already has a possible reason, God if He exists is not All Good.

    Another might be God is an impersonal force .

    Another is human welfare is irrelevant to the greater good.

    Another is that God is too weak to prevent evil and suffering.

    But the best explanation of all — the one that makes the most sense — is that God doesn’t exist.

  16. I really like the idea that God allowed evil for some reason… so that this thingy should fill up the gaps in the the “scientific theories”, such as the origin of life and endosybiosis…
    Let’s thank Darwin for that…

    Are you a Poe, J-Mac?

  17. keiths:
    I get the feeling that if this were the 1500s, fifth would be quite willing to hasten Robin’s departure with some green wood and a stake.

    Your feeling belongs in guano

  18. newton: Very compassionate ,fifth

    Another case of compassion getting in the way of reason.

    The whole point of the Evidential problem is to clearly and rationally weigh the evidence.

    The evidence is that Robin actually thinks that “it’s worth it”, But I’m accused of not being compassionate when I merely point that out.

    peace

  19. keiths: I get the feeling that if this were the 1500s, fifth would be quite willing to facilitate Robin’s departure with some green wood and a stake.

    Christians are sometimes brutally honest therefore God does not exist

    peace

  20. keiths:

    fifth, earlier in the thread:

    theodicy is easy

    fifth:

    yep it’s extremely easy

    quote:

    Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
    (Rom 9:21-23)

    end quote:

    That took about 7 seconds 😉

    Failing so quickly is an impressive skill. However, someone needs to teach you what “omnibenevolence” means. “I prepared you for destruction, so I can fuck you over if I feel like it” is not an expression of omnibenevolence.

    fifthmonarchyman: World’s Worst Apologist.

  21. keiths: I prepared you for destruction, so I can fuck you over if I feel like it” is not an expression of omnibenevolence.

    Why not?
    The highest good for a creature is to fulfill the purpose it was created for is it not?

    And remember God is “enduring with much patience” the objects of his wrath. He is under absolutely no obligation to do so. Their every breath is a sign of his gracious benevolence toward them.

    peace

  22. keiths: But the best explanation of all — the one that makes the most sense — is that God doesn’t exist.

    By “best” you mean according to your own subjective preference. How very “skeptical.”

  23. fifthmonarchyman: Christians are sometimes brutally honest therefore God does not exist

    Brutal honesty is evil. So is dishonesty. keiths doesn’t like it. Therefore, Christianity is false. Can’t argue with that!

  24. newton: Patrick already has a possible reason

    well there you go then. Everyone agrees that the problem is defeated.

    keiths: God if He exists is not All Good.

    Another might be God is an impersonal force .

    Perhaps but there has been no reason given why God can’t be personal and good and still allow evil to exist.

    newton: Another is human welfare is irrelevant to the greater good.

    No that reason is actually thoughtful.

    What possible reason does the Atheist have for thinking that insignificant specks are some how relevant to the greater good?

    peace

  25. keiths: However, someone needs to teach you what “omnibenevolence” means.

    It’s your argument, keiths. You need to define your terms and show how Christians have been required throughout the ages, as reflected in their creeds, are required to accept your terms as essential to their beliefs. You can start any time.

  26. Mung: By “best” you mean according to your own subjective preference. How very “skeptical.”

    More like the most parsimonious. So very “skeptical”

  27. Mung,

    For fun, let’s talk about the God you worship. Is he omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnibenevolent? Omnipresent? Perfectly just?

  28. Mung,

    By “best” you mean according to your own subjective preference.

    No, I mean the explanation that best fits the evidence.

    Each of the following makes far more sense if the Christian God doesn’t exist than if he does:

    A dog eats the head of a living baby.

    More than 200,000 people die, without warning, in the Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004.

    Some wicked people prosper greatly while some virtuous people suffer greatly.

    The limbs of amputees never, ever, regrow.

    When people are stuck on the toilet without toilet paper, it never, ever poofs into existence on the dispenser.

    ETA: Here’s another one:

    A bunch of Christians attempt to defend their faith on a blog and fail miserably.

    There are thousands more just like those.

    Christianity is pure wishful thinking. To be a Christian is to ignore the evidence, or to mangle rationality beyond recognition in an attempt to explain the evidence away.

  29. BTW, I’m still waiting for someone to respond to my question to Charlie. If free will invariably leads to evil, is god not free to will? Or is it that god does evil things?

  30. keiths: There are thousands more just like those.

    more terrible things meant to tug at the heart strings.

    Classic psychological problem of evil. Lets all talk about how we feel.

    Bad things happen from time to time therefore God does not exist

    It would be nice to get down to actually weighing the evidence rationally.

    peace

  31. dazz: If free will invariably leads to evil, is god not free to will? Or is it that god does evil things?

    I’d say free will invariably leads to evil in anyone who’s not God.

  32. fifth,

    The highest good for a creature is to fulfill the purpose it was created for is it not?

    Obviously not. Recall my thought experiment in which humans discover how to create universes and some horny, pimply-faced teenager creates a universe in his basement so he can watch the inhabitants having sex.

    Would you seriously argue that the highest good for the inhabitants is to have sex for the voyeuristic pleasure of their creator?

    Or for another example, take the movie Moon. Would you argue that the highest good for the clones was to live and die on the moon, longing for earth all the while, simply because that’s what they were created for?

  33. The highest good for a creature is to fulfill the purpose it was created for is it not?

    In the 2005 movie The Island, ewan mcgregor and scarlett johansson find out that they’re clones of rich people who’ve been created to serve as organ donors for the originals. That was the purpose they were created for. They then proceed to forcefully disagree with fulfilling that purpose. Maybe you could have reasoned with them.

  34. fifthmonarchyman: more terrible things meant to tug at the heart strings.

    Classic psychological problem of evil. Lets all talk about how we feel.

    Bad things happen from time to time therefore God does not exist

    It would be nice to get down to actually weighing the evidence rationally.

    I think I understand now. It’s the Stockholm syndrome.

    These theists have learned to defend their captivity.

  35. keiths:

    There are thousands more just like those.

    fifth:

    more terrible things meant to tug at the heart strings.

    No, more evidence that you cannot explain.

    Christianity is about believing, not thinking. It’s about fighting against the evidence instead of weighing it.

    Luther knew how dangerous reason was to Christianity:

    Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.

    Stop thinking. Don’t ask questions. Believe what we tell you to believe.

  36. Woodbine:

    Be as children.

    Yep, that’s the message. Too bad they don’t take this verse seriously:

    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

    1 Corinthians 13:11, NIV

    Vincent, Mung, fifth, Charlie, J-Mac,

    It’s time to put Christianity behind you and face the truth like grownups, guys.

  37. keiths: No, more evidence that you cannot explain.

    no it’s the same evidence over and over. Evil exists. big surprise

    Your stories are not more evidence they are the same single piece of evidence repeated for maximum emotional effect.

    I’m sorry you but sound like the YEC who counters all the evidence for an old earth by repeating different stories of soft tissue found in fossils. As if one more story will finally tip the scales

    What you need to do is show how your single piece of evidence (evil exists) out weighs all the evidence on the other other side of the scale. You need to do that despite the fact that you acknowledge the the universe is a good place to live.

    good luck

    peace

  38. AhmedKiaan: In the 2005 movie The Island, ewan mcgregor and scarlett johansson find out that they’re clones of rich people who’ve been created to serve as organ donors for the originals. That was the purpose they were created for

    surely you are not serious

    Clones are not the “creations” of human beings any more than children are the creations of their parents.

    I can’t beleive you would even suggest such a thing

    peace

  39. keiths: Would you seriously argue that the highest good for the inhabitants is to have sex for the voyeuristic pleasure of their creator?

    You are assuming that a being less than God could create a living soul. Such a thing is simply logically impossible. You might as well imagine a square circle.

    On the other had if a teenage pervert were to write a program that featured simulated people having simulated sex. The highest good for the simulated people is to do what they were designed for.

    It would be better for the sex program itself not to exist. But you would not want that for our universe would you?

    peace

  40. fifth,

    First of all, the bizarre and harebrained doctrrines of Christianity are not the default, any more than the doctrines of Scientololgy are. You need to support your extraordinary claims.

    Second, the amount of evil and suffering matters, obviously. If a few skinned knees were the worst thing that ever happened, the notion of an omnibenevolent God would be far easier to defend. The sheer intensity, quantity, and perversity of suffering in the world makes it much harder to do this.

    Third, the world isn’t a good place to live for everyone, obviously. Why doesn’t your supposedly omnibenevolent God do better? Why does he set his sights so low, condemning millions to lives of misery?

    These things are obvious. Haven’t you ever thought about them?

  41. keiths: You need to support your extraordinary claims.

    Are you now abandoning the argument from evil all together and falling back to standard “skepticism”? I’m ok with that.

    I already know that you know God exists

    keiths: Second, the amount of evil and suffering matters, obviously.

    You haven’t even attempted to quantify the amount of evil and we all grant that all things considered the universe is not a bad place to live.

    keiths: Third, the world isn’t a good place to live for everyone, obviously.

    Of course it’s not this whole discussion is hopelessly subjective. I happen to think God did a good job. Your mileage will vary.

    What you are trying to do is take your own limited subjective impressions and turn them into some kind of argument.

    “I like ice cream” has about the same force.

    peace

  42. keiths,

    Third, the world isn’t a good place to live for everyone, obviously. Why doesn’t your supposedly omnibenevolent God do better? Why does he set his sights so low, condemning millions to lives of misery?

    Just as the frog at the bottom of the well believes he has a good perspective of what the world looks like 🙂

  43. colewd,

    Just as the frog at the bottom of the well believes he has a good perspective of what the world looks like

    That’s just another variation of the “God works in mysterious ways” defense. See my reply to CharlieM on that topic:

    CharlieM,

    That’s just the “God works in mysterious ways” defense. When something great happens, credit goes to God, no questions asked. When something horrible happens that God could have prevented, the rationalizations come pouring forth, including the classic “Who are we to judge? God works in mysterious ways.”

    One of my favorite strategies for evaluating defenses and theodicies is to ask how well the logic works for defending the opposite hypothesis: that God is perfectly evil.

    Let’s say you believe in a perfectly evil God, and someone is trying to convince you that your God doesn’t exist. They point to a wonderful event and say “a perfectly evil God wouldn’t allow something this good to happen.” You respond by saying “Who are you to judge? My perfectly evil God works in mysterious ways. That wonderful event was in the service of a higher evil that you and I can’t comprehend.”

    The same reasoning supports two diametrically opposed hypotheses. It’s a bad argument.

    You say that we’re frogs at the bottom of the well who can’t see what’s going on. Will you stop claiming that God is perfectly good, then, since you can’t possibly know that?

  44. keiths,

    You say that we’re frogs at the bottom of the well who can’t see what’s going on. Will you stop claiming that God is perfectly good, then, since you can’t possibly know that?

    I have not made this claim, if you think I have, I apologize. The only claim I have made at this point is that we are almost certainly in a created universe. I also believe that based on the historical evidence that the Christian story is most likely true.

  45. colewd,

    So it’s wrong for me to cite evidence against Christianity, because I’m only a frog at the bottom of a well, but it’s fine for you to cite evidence for Christianity, despite being another frog at the bottom of the same well?

    Could your double standard be any more obvious?

  46. fifthmonarchyman: newton: Patrick already has a possible reason

    5th: well there you go then. Everyone agrees that the problem is defeated.

    True, just not in a good way for the all good God

    newton: God if He exists is not All Good.

    Another might be God is an impersonal force .

    5th: Perhaps but there has been no reason given why God can’t be personal and good and still allow evil to exist.

    Name a scenario ,then

    newton: Another is human welfare is irrelevant to the greater good

    5th: No that reason is actually thoughtful.

    Let’s hope you are able to keep up

    What possible reason does the Atheist have for thinking that insignificant specks are some how relevant to the greater good?

    Nope, just the same old same old

    Is that the problem you have to be important, special? The concept of God does not require it. There could a God and you could be an insignificant speck. It does eliminate the problem of evil which I believe was the topic

  47. fifthmonarchyman:
    The evidence is that Robin actually thinks that “it’s worth it”, But I’m accused of not being compassionate when I merely point that out.

    Just stating a fact, the evidence is you were not compassionate and you actually know you got caught up moment act acted badly, now you you are asking for forgiveness. You should apologize to Robin not me. Or at least that is what I am merely pointing out

  48. fifthmonarchyman: The highest good for a creature is to fulfill the purpose it was created for is it not?

    Hey Lizzie….do your job and make FMM a sammich, there’s a good girl.

  49. newton: Name a scenario ,then

    you don’t understand it’s not my job to name a scenario it’s your job to demonstrate that no scenario is possible.

    I trust that God has a good reason even if I don’t know what it is. That is because he has given me good reason to trust him.

    Since it’s your side that claims to be offering an argument you need to explain to me why despite all the evidence to the contrary my trust is misplaced.

    That’s what the evidential problem must do in order to be successful

    good luck

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