“Species”

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On the thread entitled “Species Kinds”, commenter phoodoo asks:

What’s the definition of a species?

A simple question but hard to answer. Talking of populations of interbreeding individuals immediately creates problems when looking at asexual organisms, especially the prokaryotes: bacteria and archaea. How to delineate a species temporally is also problematic. Allan Miller links to an excellent basic resource on defining a species and the Wikipedia entry does not shy away from the difficulties.

In case phoodoo thought his question was being ignored, I thought I’d open this thread to allow discussion without derailing the thread on “kinds”.

1,428 thoughts on ““Species””

  1. CharlieM: What is interesting about the life of a human is his or her individual history. People can be held as slaves and so in that respect they are unfree, but they can still be free in their thinking

    Free to think how to survive another day ,free to think how the lash feels.

    And that is the enduring message that can be taken from Christ. We have the potential to be free in the way that matters most.

    Says a someone who is not a slave

    The slave who accepts his or her circumstances and truly is pleased to serve others has more meaningful freedom than the slave owner who through personal greed and selfishness thinks that others are there to do his or her bidding.

    The slave has no choice ,the slaveowner does. Slaves have less freedom than rich guys.

    The latter is a slave to his or her lower passions.

    Yes life is hard even when you are not a slave. Just not as hard as being a slave.

  2. newton: Free to think how to survive another day ,free to think how the lash feels.

    So you know the thoughts of anyone who was or is a slave?

    Says a someone who is not a slave

    You have never met my wife.

    The slave has no choice ,the slaveowner does. Slaves have less freedom than rich guys.

    Do you think that physical freedom is the only kind there is?

    Yes life is hard even when you are not a slave. Just not as hard as being a slave.

    Do slaves that gets on with their enforced duties without moaning about their lot find life as difficult as rich people who commit suicide because they have reached the end of their tether?

  5. CharlieM: The slave who accepts his or her circumstances and truly is pleased to serve others has more meaningful freedom than the slave owner who through personal greed and selfishness thinks that others are there to do his or her bidding

    Does the same rationalization work for, say, rape?

  6. dazz: Does the same rationalization work for, say, rape?

    I would say that someone who commits rape is definitely enslaved by his passions. To the point that he is willing to inflict horrible suffering on another person for a temporary physical thrill.

    I would say a similar mental slavery is experienced by everyone who is unable to think about anything but their obsessions for any length of time.

    peace

  7. Also, since God clearly endorses slavery in the Bible and prompts his people to take others as slaves, it follows that God is full of personal greed and selfishness and thinks that others are there to do his or her bidding

    That actually sounds about right to me

  9. dazz: The raped who accepts his or her circumstances and truly is pleased to please others has more meaningful freedom than the rapist

    I would say that the rapist and the rape victim are both enslaved just in different senses.

    The victim is enslaved physically the rapist is enslaved mentally and spiritually.

    Mental and Spiritual freedom are special in that no one can take them away from you with out your permission.

    What is a true poverty is when the rape victim becomes enslaved mentally and spiritually by the actions of the rapist.

    Peace

  10. CharlieM: So you know the thoughts of anyone who was or is a slave?

    Plenty of narratives by former slaves, just curious what would would you think about when someone is whipping you?

    You have never met my wife.

    No, but what you do voluntarily is not my business.

    Do you think that physical freedom is the only kind there is?

    No that was my point, slaveholders have more freedoms than slaves.

    Do slaves that gets on with their enforced duties without moaning about their lot find life as difficult as rich people who commit suicide because they have reached the end of their tether?

    In other words is it worse to be rich and depressed or a slave and desensitized to the realities of one’s dehumanizations, absolutely subject to the whims of another, legally the property of another, have your children’s fate a life of slavery, be forbidden from education?

    Rich is better.

  11. fifthmonarchyman: If you are a slave named Meno you are free to think about how we know what constitutes a species and discover where essences are located

    check it out

    ” Meno is visiting Athens from Thessaly with a large entourage of slaves attending him. Young, good-looking and well-born, Meno is a student of Gorgias, a prominent sophist whose views on virtue clearly influence Meno’s. He claims early in the dialogue that he has held forth many times on the subject of virtue, and in front of large audiences.”

    Meno is a rich guy with slaves

  12. fifthmonarchyman: would say that the rapist and the rape victim are both enslaved just in different senses.

    The victim is enslaved physically the rapist is enslaved mentally and spiritually.

    Mental and Spiritual freedom are special in that no one can take them away from you with out your permission.

    I thought you believed there is no free will

  13. newton: I thought you believed there is no free will

    No it’s the unregenerate who have no free will. The rest of us are free.

    quote:

    Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
    (Joh 8:34-36)

    end quote:

    peace

  14. newton: No that was my point, slaveholders have more freedoms than slaves.

    Nope just different freedoms

    The slaveholder has merely physical freedom but the slave can if he chooses be free in every other sense.

    quote:

    They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
    (2Pe 2:19)

    end quote:

    peace

  15. newton: Meno is a rich guy with slaves

    right I was careless.

    It’s Meno’s unnamed slave who had the freedom to discover this stuff. His anonymity makes his intellectual freedom even more significant.

    peace

  16. fifthmonarchyman:

    Allan Miller: A separate thread on the Bible and slavery might be better

    Amen!!!

    It seems that some folks are unable to throttle their schoolyard vendetta against the almighty
    . . . .

    This isn’t about your mythical “almighty”, it’s about your disparaging the horror of slavery.

    I’ve started a new thread out of respect to Allan. Until you are prepared to recognize that your bible is wrong when it explicitly condones slavery, you deserve none.

  17. Patrick,

    Yea right, you are the champion of the oppressed all around the world aren’t you Patrick?

    You have already long since drug this site down as low as it can go, no one can outdo you there.

  18. dazz: Does the same rationalization work for, say, rape?

    I’m sure “Thou shalt not rape” was left out of the Ten Commandments for the same reason “Thou shalt not enslave people” didn’t make the cut. It was much more important to make sure no one used the deity’s name as an epithet.

  19. Patrick: I’m sure “Thou shalt not rape” was left out of the Ten Commandments for the same reason “Thou shalt not enslave people” didn’t make the cut.It was much more important to make sure no one used the deity’s name as an epithet.

    God’s architecture had a 4KB limit at the time, just enough for ten commandments. He predicted no one would ever need more than 12 bits. That’s why

  20. phoodoo:

    Yea right, you are the champion of the oppressed all around the world aren’t you Patrick?

    It doesn’t take a great deal of moral fortitude to say that slavery is wrong. It’s only the people who refuse to contradict the bible who have trouble with it.

  21. Patrick,

    But don’t you think genital mutilation is wrong? Why haven’t you mentioned that?

    And isn’t armed robbery wrong? Why aren’t you speaking up? You don’t agree its wrong?

    Are you in favor of poisoning babies with crack? How much moral courage does it take for you to finally come out against giving babies crack? Where is your outrage?

  24. Patrick: I’m sure “Thou shalt not rape” was left out of the Ten Commandments for the same reason “Thou shalt not enslave people” didn’t make the cut.

    Do you think that adding a commandment or two would have meant less rape and slavery?

    If it did not work for murder or adultery what would make you think it would work for rape?

    As a libertarian you should know that the solution for immorality is not more law. Apparently hatred for God is a higher priority than your core political beliefs.

    peace

  26. Mung: Yet he acts as if he does.

    Exactly,

    Funny how his moral compass equates to the cultural mores of the society he currently lives in. It seems as if he is declaring his own personal culture to be the equivalent of the “big book of morals”.

    His culture has a history of that sort of thing.

    peace

  27. fifthmonarchyman: Nope just different freedoms

    The slaveholder has merely physical freedom but the slave can if he chooses be free in every other sense.

    Like what?

  29. fifthmonarchyman: artificial but “quite useful and descriptive for those who know what they are talking about”?

    Is that like a good lie?

    peace

    No, it’s not like “a good lie”…whatever that means.

    It’s like any human-made tool – hammers, Smartphones, cars, electron microscopes, the Periodic Table, etc. Any and all tools man makes are quite useful for those who know how to use the tools.

  30. fifthmonarchyman:

    I’m sure “Thou shalt not rape” was left out of the Ten Commandments for the same reason “Thou shalt not enslave people” didn’t make the cut.

    Do you think that adding a commandment or two would have meant less rape and slavery?

    It would demonstrate that your god considered those sins at least on the same level as taking its name in vain. Leaving them out certainly shows a lack of concern. “Rape and enslave, but don’t use my name to cuss.”

    If it did not work for murder or adultery what would make you think it would work for rape?

    So why were those included? Why have the commandments at all if they don’t work? It’s almost as though they were written by a bunch of men to address the behaviors most important to them.

  31. Mung:

    Richardthughes: Patrick doesn’t purport to have ‘the big book of morals’.

    Yet he acts as if he does.

    Saying “slavery is wrong” is not particularly contentious, except apparently among some Christians.

  32. colewd:
    Robin,

    Hi Robin
    I am familiar with this paper.I agree that there is evidence supporting common decent but there is also contrary evidence.

    I believe the problem with the analysis is the assumption that the evolutionary mechanism is stochastic.In addition we are discussing only a few proteins that need to be explained.In the theoretical UCA there are tens of thousands of proteins that that need to be evolved de novo.Stochastic processes cannot build the largest of these proteins IMHO and I am very skeptical that probabilistic processes can even build the smallest.

    This is merely an argument from incredulity coupled with some question begging. Your argument boils down to:

    Stochastic processes cannot build the largest of these proteins IMHO and I am very skeptical that probabilistic processes can even build the smallest.

    So you don’t believe what scientists claim not only can happen, but have demonstrated in experiments. Fine. I would not expect your opinion to have much impact in the long run, but if it gives you comfort, have at it.

  33. fifthmonarchyman:
    Funny how his moral compass equates to the cultural mores of the society he currently lives in. It seems as if he is declaring his own personal culture to be the equivalent of the “big book of morals”.

    His culture has a history of that sort of thing.

    I’m saying, unequivocally, that slavery is morally wrong and that the biblical verses that condone it are wrong. Because of your religious commitments, you are unable to make the same statement. All this blather about culture and objective morality is simply an attempted smokescreen to cover up the fact that you disparaged the suffering of slavery as “temporary and local”. That’s a vile position to hold.

  34. fifthmonarchyman: Of course these things are a species. That is what the word means.

    No it doesn’t.

    There is no reason that the concept of a set of all buttons is fundamentally different than the set of all water buffaloes.

    Indeed there is: buttons do not reproduce.

    The only reason you think that the idea of a biological species is different than every other species is because you are looking at the world through the Darwinist googles.

    Um…no…it’s because I actually understand the basis and principles of words and language.

    It’s a good bet that if in order to make any sense your theory makes you abandon a common well understood definition that works perfectly well in every other instanceit might be incomplete.

    just saying

    peace

    You should repeat this to yourself every evening for the next year, particularly when you post an obscure definition that no one actually uses in any conversation. In fact, I challenge you to ask people at random – say at a mall or a restaurant – to define species. I’m betting that no one defines it as something outside of similar organisms.

  35. fifthmonarchyman: unny how his moral compass equates to the cultural mores of the society he currently lives in. It seems as if he is declaring his own personal culture to be the equivalent of the “big book of morals”.

    A argument can be made that is exactly what your big book of morals is as well.

  36. phoodoo: You have already long since drug this site down as low as it can go, no one can outdo you there.

    Don’t sell yourself short ,phoo.

  37. newton,

    Well maybe its fine to you that the sites moderator is a gun toting survivalist, that loves North Korean style dictatorship control of opposing opinions, Trump style race baiting, and steadfastly refuses to denounce sexual mutilation and poisoning helpless babies with illegal drugs.

    Plus on top of that, has he ever written a funny line, anywhere, ever? That’s Lizzie’s frontline protector? I scoff at anyone who supports such fascism.

  38. Would it be too much to ask for somebody to say something on topic? Don’t answer that.

  39. John Harshman:
    Would it be too much to ask for somebody to say something on topic? Don’t answer that.

    Will this do?

    WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
    He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
    But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
    He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
    But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
    They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
    ‘Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
    For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    Man’s timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
    For the Woman that God gave him isn’t his to give away;
    But when hunter meets with husbands, each confirms the other’s tale—
    The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

    Man, a bear in most relations—worm and savage otherwise,—
    Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
    Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
    To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

    Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
    To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
    Mirth obscene diverts his anger—Doubt and Pity oft perplex
    Him in dealing with an issue—to the scandal of The Sex!

    But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
    Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
    And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
    The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

    She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
    May not deal in doubt or pity—must not swerve for fact or jest.
    These be purely male diversions—not in these her honour dwells—
    She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

    She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
    As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
    And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
    Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

    She is wedded to convictions—in default of grosser ties;
    Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies!—
    He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
    Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

    Unprovoked and awful charges—even so the she-bear fights,
    Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons—even so the cobra bites,
    Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
    And the victim writhes in anguish—like the Jesuit with the squaw!

    So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
    With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
    Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
    To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.

    And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
    Must command but may not govern—shall enthral but not enslave him.
    And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
    That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.

    — Rudyard Kipling

  40. John,

    Would it be too much to ask for somebody to say something on topic? Don’t answer that.

    The first commandment of TSZ is “thou shalt derail.” Some of our best discussions have started as derails.

    I see you’re starting to get the hang of it. From the “Slavery in the Bible” thread:

    I feel that for symmetry I should start talking about speciation here.

    That’s the spirit! 🙂

  41. keiths:
    That’s the spirit!🙂

    Unfortunately, nobody ever replied to that. Apparently there are certain subjects that can’t be derailed. Perhaps those are the subjects that creationists feel comfortable discussing.

  43. phoodoo:
    newton,

    Well maybe its fine to you that the sites moderator is a gun toting survivalist

    I’m from Texas

    that loves North Korean style dictatorship control of opposing opinions,

    I’m from Texas

    Trump style race baiting

    Ditto

    and steadfastly refuses to denounce sexual mutilation and poisoning helpless babies with illegal drugs.

    I take it that is a deal breaker for you? Is it the illegal drug part?

    Plus on top of that, has he ever written a funny line, anywhere, ever?

    While not as funny as the character you play, phoo, Mathgrl could be viewed as extended joke on CSI calculators everywhere. We all can’t be Mung.

    That’s Lizzie’s frontline protector?I scoff at anyone who supports such fascism.

    Never seemed to me that Lizzie’s needed a protector, I think of the moderators more like janitors, a thankless ,necessary job.

    I guess I shall have to endure your scoffing.

    Now can we please discuss species

  44. newton,

    Now can we please discuss species

    To which phoodoo says “how can we discuss something you can’t define?” and fifth says “species are distinct in the timeless mind of God” and …

  48. Allan Miller: To which phoodoo says “how can we discuss something you can’t define?” and fifth says “species are distinct in the timeless mind of God” and …

    Are minority opinions of the subject a problem here?
    Phoodoo’s and my contributions are complementary.

    He points out the difficulty of defining species from a materialistic framework and I provide a possible definition from a framework that is not so constrained.

    It seems to me that the proper response to these developments would be to offer an alternative workable definition from your perspective. Such a definition would be warranted in that the “origin of species” is what the whole Darwin enterprise was meant to address. It’s what the fuss is about.

    The “problem of species” demonstrates that this is easier said than done IMO.

    Peace

  49. phoodoo:
    newton,

    How can we discuss something that we have never seen and we have no evidence for it ever happening?

    We discussed your sense of humor

  50. fifthmonarchyman: Are minority opinions of the subject a problem here?
    Phoodoo’s and my contributions are complementary.
    He points out the difficulty of defining species from a materialistic framework and I provide a possible definition from a framework that is not so constrained.
    It seems to me that the proper response to these developments would be to offer an alternative workable definition from your perspective. Such a definition would be warranted in that the “origin of species” is what the whole Darwin enterprise was meant to address. It’s what the fuss is about.
    The “problem of species” demonstrates that this is easier said than done IMO.
    Peace

    The problem of species is only a problem for those who doubt common descent.

    For biologists there is a problem agreeing on nomenclature, but no problem understanding why labeling is a problem.

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