Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

4,190 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. Erik: Technically, nobody has to get vaccinated. Everybody can just do the tests. What is there to be in two minds about?

    That is exactly how the Dutch government argued for the introduction of the QR codes (mobile vaccination passes). However, if you impose restrictions on going to social events or in some cases, your work, you are sure walking a fine line.

  2. phoodoo: Where? What is the end goal?

    In most likelihood, COVID19 will eventually become a seasonally recurring respiratory infection of moderate virulence like influenza was before the corona pandemic.

  3. Corneel: That is exactly how the Dutch government argued for the introduction of the QR codes (mobile vaccination passes). However, if you impose restrictions on going to social events or in some cases, your work, you are sure walking a fine line.

    Still on the side of non-compulsory, so actually a pretty wide line. Has the Dutch government fired any soldiers from the army over this? In the army it would be quite understandable to make vaccination compulsory. And why else would people join the army except to follow orders? But is covid vaccination compulsory in your country’s army at least?

    Corneel: In most likelihood, COVID19 will eventually become a seasonally recurring respiratory infection of moderate virulence like influenza was before the corona pandemic.

    I think so too. And then life will turn back to normal the way it has been with the flu – there will be (almost) yearly campaigns to get vaccinated that most people will ignore. Highly recommended, but not compulsory. In a real pandemic, like now, I think the government has room to do much more, but they are not doing it.

  4. Erik,

    I personally feel like one vaccine is probably even enough for 99% of the population. I think if your body has had any exposure whatsoever to this class of viruses, its not going to be more dangerous than the flu.

    I am getting my second dose this week, but I honestly don’t think I need it. I am going to mix it up with a different vaccine this time, just to keep my immune system guessing.

  5. Erik: In a real pandemic, like now, I think the government has room to do much more, but they are not doing it.

    In US, real or not ,there seems some doubt that whether it is legally true that the government has room to do more at the Federal level. At State level, since 28 Governors are Republicans , some facing elections, there is little will to will to mandate anything except forbidding the teaching of some academic subjects in schools or transsexual students playing athletics.

    “The Biden administration issued three mandates in September — one for federal contractors, another for healthcare workers, and a third for companies with more than 100 employees. Some Republican governors have argued that Mr. Biden does not have the authority to impose these mandates, which are estimated to cover more than 100 million workers.

    And federal judges in Georgia, Louisiana and Missouri — all appointed by Republicans — have agreed in part, creating a roadblock for the administration’s push to vaccinate all Americans. Before the court orders, local and private mandates had helped boost vaccination rates.”

  6. Erik: think so too. And then life will turn back to normal the way it has been with the flu – there will be (almost) yearly campaigns to get vaccinated that most people will ignore.

    Actually in US over 50% of folks older than 18 have gotten a flu shot this year.

  7. phoodoo: I personally feel like one vaccine is probably even enough for 99% of the population. I think if your body has had any exposure whatsoever to this class of viruses, its not going to be more dangerous than the flu.

    But think what the flu is: It is a recurring thing about once per year. Many have been vaccinated, most at least once, yet it keeps recurring. So the effect of the vaccination fades.

    phoodoo: I am getting my second dose this week, but I honestly don’t think I need it.

    I don’t think I need it either. I have not been vaccinated against ordinary flu this century and I have not been sick with flu at all, so evidently my immune system is good or my hygiene is good or I have been lucky or all of it. Yet there is a pandemic around, so do you have some better policy to suggest for the government? Probably not. “Do nothing” or “you gotta have your freedoms” is not a sane policy in a pandemic.

    I delayed my vaccination to the end of last year out of pure laziness. I can survive just fine without social gatherings and activities; I have no business meetings either etc. But in my opinion there is absolutely no ideological or political ground to oppose the vaccination policies, and for my own sake it is a good idea to be less lazy for a while and make an effort to be social.

  8. Corneel: The difference being that bodily integrity is grounded in the constitution and the right to drunk driving is not. Overriding the former needs more pressing arguments.

    I think we draw lines in different places. For you, the line is between bodily integrity and not, and for me the line is between whether the danger is to the individual or the community. I oppose, for example, laws against most drugs and laws requiring motorcycle helmets, because those generally don’t threaten anyone but the user, at least not directly. Perhaps you would oppose motorcycle helmet mandates on the grounds of bodily integrity?

  9. Erik: But is covid vaccination compulsory in your country’s army at least?

    No, so far the Dutch government has issued no vaccination mandates.

  10. Flint: I think we draw lines in different places. For you, the line is between bodily integrity and not, and for me the line is between whether the danger is to the individual or the community. I oppose, for example, laws against most drugs and laws requiring motorcycle helmets, because those generally don’t threaten anyone but the user, at least not directly. Perhaps you would oppose motorcycle helmet mandates on the grounds of bodily integrity?

    No, people are free to do silly stuff that can only harm themselves AFAIK and I agree that refusal to be vaccinated is a behaviour that threatens public health and that this is an argument with considerable weight in justifying compulsory vaccination.

    But my hesitation is not some sort of personal whim; I imagine the reason the right to bodily integrity is included in the constitution is because some other people also considered it of some importance. The decision to override it should not be taken lightly.

  11. Corneel:
    But my hesitation is not some sort of personal whim; I imagine the reason the right to bodily integrity is included in the constitution is because some other people also considered it of some importance. The decision to override it should not be taken lightly.

    I suspect we’re basically in agreement here. How many different violations of bodily integrity have the effect and purpose of protecting the community? Other than prevention of spreading serious disease, I’m not sure I can think of any. I don’t think I’d go along with, for example, castration of serial sex offenders.

    Incidentally, the “right to bodily integrity” is not found in the US Constitution. It has been interpreted into the Constitution by some SCOTUS decisions, which have “found” it in the “penumbras and emanations” arising from other aspects of the Constitution, most notably the 5th and 14th amendments. But it has the same Constitutional protection as the right to abortion, derived in the same way. Not all legal scholars insist the right to abortion is right there in the Constitution.

  12. Erik: Yet there is a pandemic around, so do you have some better policy to suggest for the government?

    Well, as I have said, if the vaccine is available with easy access, and there are people who want to avoid it just because it has become this polititcal right wing rallying cry, then at some point the government is just going to have to say to them, well, good luck, if you die its your own fault. They should make it clear to them that medical care will not be a high priority for those who willfully ignore the requests of the country.

    I am not against the vaccine. Although I could understand why some people would be leary of taking the newest version of the vaccine, because they don’t trust the technology yet. But there are other options for them.

    There seem to be a lot of outspoken people against the vaccine who have gotten sick lately, and some have died. Some local poiticians, radio hosts, and so forth. Eventually someone more famous than this, who is against the vaccine, is probably going to get covid and die. Depending of their level of fame, this will probably cause a shift in how these other anti-vaxxer nuts think. Its kind of unusual that of all the people who had died from covid, there hasn’t really been a big star that I can think of. But there will be. Imagine if the fat orange guy had, things would probably be quite different right now. Or a Tucker Carlson, or someone like that. The US vaccination rate would probably get up to 90%.

    It will probably take something like this to change people’s minds.

  13. Flint: Incidentally, the “right to bodily integrity” is not found in the US Constitution. It has been interpreted into the Constitution by some SCOTUS decisions, which have “found” it in the “penumbras and emanations” arising from other aspects of the Constitution, most notably the 5th and 14th amendments.

    That’s interesting. This right is explicitly stated in the Dutch constitution (article 11), so I assumed similar articles could be found in others as well.

  14. phoodoo:
    It will probably take something like this to change people’s minds.

    I have to wonder. While nobody truly famous has died yet, there is a long and growing list of anti-vaxxers whose spouses, parents, and children have died of COVID who STILL insist they will never get vaccinated and there is nothing that will change their minds. At least one of those radio hosts died of COVID insisting up until he could no longer speak that it wasn’t covid at all, and his wife has replaced him on the radio, ALSO insisting it couldn’t have been COVID.

    On the other hand, some of these anti-vax folks have had deathbed conversions, and started recommending the vaccine before they died. There’s no indication this converted anyone else. Stories like this are played up big in the media (except Fox), without measurable effect. The indications are that being anti-vax has nothing to do with facts or reason. It’s a fully emotional commitment.

  15. Well, I was exposed, presumably to omicron, last Friday, by a family member who tested negative.

    He tested positive Sunday, and I spent Sunday mostly sleeping.

    Three doses Pfizer and I managed to get by with tiredness and some body aches. No fever. Booster was three months old.

    My wife had the Moderna booster more recently and had no symptoms at all.

    If it’s needed every six months, I’m in line.

  16. Entropy,

    I believe there was a lot of crossover between the US constitution and the French. Though as 1776 predates 1789, I’m guessing the US constitution was first.

  17. phoodoo: Kids have been getting vaccines for decades upon decades. Again, why the sudden panic about doing something we have done since both of us have been alive?

    Sure… but why every 3 to 6 months?
    Can’t you tell the difference between vaccines and gene therapies that DO NOT PREVENT INFECTION?
    Example: About 300 of my work colleagues called in sick recently because they tested positive for covid19 who are all fully vaccinated or boosted.

    2 Hospitals in GTA are in CODE ORANGE because they can’t find staff who are covid negative.
    My wife worked all week with colleagues who had tested positive but were allowed to work or people would get their nuclear medicine tests done…
    Many patients with a positive covid-19 are discharged home because almost everyone tests positive.. Unless you have serious symptoms, or are at risk, you will not be tested in Ontario…
    Amen!

  18. Corneel: Playing the credentials game is a bit difficult when one is commenting under a pseudonym. Your comments do not betray any relevant expertise either, I am sorry to say.
    So tell us, what is the nature of your “affiliation with hospitals”? I am pretty confident that you are not an MD. Are you a nurse perhaps?

    So, you found no satisfactory answers (to your views) to my “influenza disappearance ” challenge in the Netherlands?
    So, you decided to attack my credentials instead?
    Wicked! lol

  19. J-Mac,

    That’s weird. I remember some guy complaining that Unity Health Toronto was putting non-urgent surgeries on hold when their COVID-related bed occupancy was low.
    Alan Fox pointed out that their caseload was probably about to go up…
    Sure enough.
    How it started:

  20. petrushka,

    My wife was hoping to get infected with “OmniCon”… unfortunately natural immunity is NOT recognized in Canada due to Pfizer contracts that have been signed by Trudeau until the end of 2024… How did he know the “pandemic” was going to be that long? Another prime-sinister of Canada with psychic abilities?

  21. The most interesting thing about so-called Canadian covid-19 travel restrictions is that anyone with a negative RT-PCR test can leave and come back to the country, dispite the media hype telling you otherwise… ( I’d sayit does help if you own a biofire machine) 😉
    People like me, and my family members, have not been restricted to do anything different since the beginning of the panic-demic…
    I’d say: let it rip, whatever it is…lol

  22. Corneel: In most likelihood, COVID19 will eventually become a seasonally recurring respiratory infection of moderate virulence like influenza was before the corona pandemic.

    Really? Says who? Moderna? It helps, if you can design a “vaccine” in 2 days and brag about it… I’m sure their patents months prior to the appearance of the “novel features of SARS -Cov-2” i.e. furin cleavage, had nothing to do with it…

    I have to believe it…because I have never been to a real lab before …;-)

  23. J-Mac: Example: About 300 of my work colleagues called in sick recently because they tested positive for covid19 who are all fully vaccinated or boosted.

    Imagine what would have happened to them if they weren’t vaccinated!

  24. J-Mac: Sure… but why every 3 to 6 months?

    So get one or two and be done with it. Have you been vaccinated at all?

    I can’t argue with three different arguments that aren’t the same. Are you against all vaccines, or just covid vaccines or just four rounds of covid vaccines?

    You just said at ONE company you have had 300 people who are sick from this and can’t work. Do you think those 300 people would have been less sick if they didn’t get vaccinated?

  25. The Ontario’s Chef of Mediocre Office of Health Puppet finally admits what has been known for close to 2 years..
    The huge difference between the admission with covid vs because of covid..
    I hope there is hell for those pieces of s..t…

    https://youtu.be/yfzUuwu4_bA?t=155

  26. phoodoo,

    Don’t be naive phoodoo!
    The so-called vaccines were designed to get you addicted – regular injections every 3-6 months.
    Do you think Big Pharma is interested in real vaccines to protect you from infections?
    It has not been in their business model since the late 1990 because it doesn’t guarantee constant profits…
    Pfizer is projecting to make 1 trillion dollars in revenues within the next few years… from vaccines mainly… How could they know?

  27. phoodoo: Imagine what would have happened to them if they weren’t vaccinated!

    You realize that 80-95% of “vaccinated and boosted” test positive for OmniCon, right?
    It’s time to “find” a “new variant”, don’t you think???

  28. phoodoo: You just said at ONE company you have had 300 people who are sick from this and can’t work. Do you think those 300 people would have been less sick if they didn’t get vaccinated?

    I guess you must believe we have real pandemic????
    It has been so great that :
    “Since the start of the pandemic, 43 health care workers have died from COVID-19 (now acknowledged as with covid) as of June 15, 2021” in Canada
    It has been so devastating that 8 provinces and territories out of 13 in Canada didn’t have even 1 death with covid among health care workers since the beginning of the “panic-demic”. out of 100 000 cases

    We know some of those deaths were people who were not considered fully vaccinated”i.e. less than 14 days after the last ] jab…
    https://www.cihi.ca/en/covid-19-cases-and-deaths-in-health-care-workers-in-canada-infographic

  29. J-Mac: It has been so devastating that 8 provinces and territories out of 13 in Canada didn’t have even 1 death with covid among health care workers since the beginning of the “panic-demic”. out of 100 000 cases

    Is this supposed to be an argument against vaccines???

    Funny way to go about it.

  30. J-Mac:
    petrushka,

    My wife was hoping to get infected with “OmniCon”… unfortunately natural immunity isNOT recognized in Canada due to Pfizer contracts that have been signed by Trudeau until the end of 2024… How did he know the “pandemic” was going to be that long? Another prime-sinister of Canada with psychic abilities?

    Believe those are options to buy the vaccine .

  31. J-Mac: So, you found no satisfactory answers (to your views) to my “influenza disappearance ” challenge in the Netherlands?

    Isn’t it difficult reading comments with your eyes closed?

    J-Mac: So, you decided to attack my credentials instead?

    And you appear to have the memory of a goldfish as well. To recap: YOU, J-Mac, an internet nobody who has demonstrated nothing but profound ignorance in biology, physics and medicine in your various guises on the internet, told Entropy, a commenter with clear professional expertise in molecular biology, that he was a layman. This probably got a hearty laugh from onlookers at your expense. Now, I am genuinely interested in your background. If you refuse to tell us: fine. this is entirely up to you, of course.

    But to be bluntly honest: Until I receive some indications otherwise I will simply assume that your “affiliation with hospitals” consists of sweeping the floors there. LOL 😉

  32. phoodoo: Is this supposed to be an argument against vaccines???

    Funny way to go about it.

    Don’t be naive… I don’t care who takes it and who doesn’t. It’s like you said earlier:
    “There’s nothing that matters more than our freedoms right now”
    Kelly Ernby 2021

    The arguments is against the so-called pandemic…
    If frontline workers dealing with covid-19 patients everyday have about 0.04 % chance of dying from, or with covid-19, and 8 provinces and territories in Canada have NOT reported any deaths among health care workers, this tells you the pandemic is a manufactured illusion.

    Nobody at the 7 hospitals we are affiliated with died with covid and 1 my colleague was in ICU, but he wasn’t even intubated, as is O2 sat was stable and he has asthma and other major comorbidity. One frontline worker died at my wife’s hospital after the second dose of vaccination but she apparently also tested positive for covid-19.

    Furthermore, the pandemic is apparently so bad, that covid-19 positive frontline workers (with mild symptoms) work not only with covid-19 patients, but also those who have not tested positive..

    Isn’t the government and the hospital infection diseases management concerned?
    This is a mockery of so-called infection prevention standards..

    That’s why Kieran Moore, Ontario Chief Medical Officer of Health had to go public and back-peddle the reporting of hospital admissions because of COVID-19 vs with covid19. I linked it before:
    https://youtu.be/yfzUuwu4_bA?t=140

    No healthy kid under 20 yo has died from or with covid in Canada yet. My kids dug it out.
    20 plus kids die of influenza complications each year and about 20 people per 100K
    This fact was stated publicly by the medical health officer of Alberta and confirmed by the premier… No mainstream media reported it further…

    I’m tired of proving the obvious…

  33. Corneel,

    No direct answers? No surprise here..lol

    I doubt very much you have anything to do with the tracking of infectious diseases in Holland, like influenzas. If you did, you’d know that influenzas have been “resurrected” there since about the week 36 in 2021.
    That’s why I asked the direct question few weeks back.

    You must be “affiliated” with them the same way my cleaning lady is with my office 😉

  34. J-Mac: If you did, you’d know that influenzas have been “resurrected” there since about the week 36 in 2021.

    J-Mac, I haven’t got the faintest clue what you are trying to imply. Influenza never disappeared, so it cannot be “resurrected”. Because of masks and social distancing the incidence of all respiratory infectious diseases was in decline, which is exactly what we expect because that is what those measures are supposed to do. Moreover, cases of influenza and COVID19 can be easily told apart by testing, which is what is happening on a grand scale. So what is your point?

  35. J-Mac: You must be “affiliated” with them the same way my cleaning lady is with my office 😉

    A-HA. So you have an office! Some desk job then. Hmmmm.

  36. Alan Fox:
    General reminder that this site has rules about civil discussion.

    The sandbox, though, is about trying different things, right?

    😀

  37. J-Mac: The so-called vaccines were designed to get you addicted – regular injections every 3-6 months.

    So that’s why I feel like being vaccinated every half an an hour! I’m addicted to feeling pain in my bones, tired, feverish, etc. They designed those addictive vaccines very well indeed. Looking forward for my next dose! Yummy!

  38. J-Mac: No healthy kid under 20 yo has died from or with covid in Canada yet. My kids dug it out.

    That’s an oxymoron. If they’re healthy they don’t have covid.

    Among the infected, two died between Jan 2020 and June 2021.

    Another two in the past two weeks.

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