Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.
I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.
They had no covid-19 vaccines as they calculated the risk of getting very ill with covid-19 and dying to be the same as getting struck and killed by lightning… If you are skeptical, talk to WHO. They posted the stats, not me…
https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf
BTW: About 20 kids their age die from flu every year in Canada. Only 1 died with covid-19 in 2020. Go figure!
Evolution can’t explain the origins of SARS CoV-2?
Gain of function, in the real sense of the word, is not possible – the law of conservation of Q. information
Even some evolutionists reluctantly conceded that in cell culture you lose furin cleavage…
So, where did SARS CoV-2 come from??? The third option, perhaps???
J-Mac,
Right, so you kids have vaccine passports already. And you have had a vaccine passport since you were five. Have you been concerned about vaccine passports for 40 years?
The difference is we never needed to show it at the establishment’s door to go in to take a leak…
BTW: Neither my kids nor me have ALL the required vaccines.
I have never had a “flu vaccine”.
phoodoo,
You believe people in charge of science have been lying about what evolution can accomplish for over 150 years, right?
What’s another drop-like-lie about the supposedly evolved novel virus in the ocean of scientific lies???
Of course you did. You showed it when you were five years old.
I think the hypocrisy of suddenly saying we shouldn’t require vaccines, when practically the entire western world has required vaccines of children for decades and decades. It sounds much more like a political issue than a health one. If Obama had been president when this all started, I don’t think there would have been all the ridiculous crying and whining about just doing the right thing for the country for two months and then getting past it. Instead you had this idiot who turned it into this totally illogical, rah, rah, freedom fries USA bullshit.
You are not a free country, you are a free country with rules and regulations, and this should be the least of your worries about rules. Instead bring your guns and Kyle Rittenhouse adoration and make the whole country a mess. Congrats.
What exactly is the lie that you think is being told-that it exists? That it gets some people very sick, so why not just get past it?
I don’t care about the rest of it, but this part I can confirm, its true. So, what’s the worry? You said the biggest risk factor is obesity. Well, I got news for you, that’s 60 percent of Canada and US. That’s not a lie. Go to a mall, you will see.
I think we both need to stay calm and rational here…
We both knew very well we needed to be vaccinated by the age of 5. Most of our vaccines were real vaccines; administered once for life. Are covid-19 vaccines in the same category?
Are you prepared to get the jab every 3 months? If yes, when are you really protected? People die from or with covid-19 vaccinated, but they are not considered as such until 14 day after the second jab and now the 3rd. If Israel changes their vaccine passport rules, people there will not be considered fully vaccinated until 14 day after the 4th jab…
At what point is my vaccine passport valid?
More so; when am I really protected when I’m vaccinated? How many boosters will I have to take for the vaccine to work? Corona viruses mutate all the time. That’s how they apparently survive. Will I need a booster each time the virus mutates??? When does it end? The previous vaccination had an end. The covid-19 vaccine doesn’t have an end as far as I can see. How about you? Do you see the end?
There are two issue here…
1. Something makes people very sick and some of those people die
2. You don’t care what it is that makes the 60 % of obese people sick in Canada and US
I think that the issue here is self-explanatory… Unless you believe there is a vaccine for obesity and as per CDC:
“The strongest risk factors for death (with covid-19) were obesity (adjusted risk ratio [aRR] = 1.30; 95% CI, 1.27–1.33), anxiety and fear-related disorders…”
https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm?
If you know of a company that has a vaccine for obesity, anxiety and fear, I will buy their shares right now…
I read it again “ If what I suspect is the underlying agenda, ” ,my question remains what is it you suspect?
What sports do you watch? Football? Soccer? Hockey? I would like to give you a real life example as to the list of suspects…
An average of 49 people are killed in US by lightning every year. Last year ,2020, about 385,000 folks died of Covid in US .
Think J-Mac is Canadian .
Golf, , why would my sports watching habits affect what you suspect is the underlying agenda ?
I agree with some of this actually. In general I also don’t trust consensus science to tell me the truth completely. Although I am not always sure this is deliberate or just misguided.
As far as I am concerned, even one jab is probably enough. I think after one exposure like this, if you do actually get the virus, you will get the flu, and that’s it. I just think the virus is something so new to most people’s immune system, that any bit of immunity will help. Having lived in Asia as long as I have, its likely I have already been exposed to something similar and just didn’t know it, so I may already have some small immmunity. But then I think, what’s it going to hurt.
Now, having said that, if someone really didn’t trust the mRna type virus, because the technology is too new, I think that is a fairly reasonable reaction (although personally wouldn’t worry me that much). But in that case, I think people could just get the old style Johnson & Johnson one, and it would be just fine. If you are already in super poor health, and any kind of flu will be dangerous, then that’s a different story, and those people need to do what’s best for them. But for the general public, a simple vaccine, and this thing will be over soon enough.
That’s my feeling.
Were those killed by lightning in the US mainly golfers? 😉
phoodoo,
I pretty much agree…
However, over the years here I’ve gotten to know you to be a critical thinker.
Please read this paper and let me know what you think:
Here is the methodology and the summary of the 6 month follow up review of Pfizer Phase 3.
METHODS
“In an ongoing, placebo-controlled, observer-blinded, multinational, pivotal efficacy trial, we randomly assigned 44,165 participants 16 years of age or older and 2264 participants 12 to 15 years of age to receive two 30-μg doses, at 21 days apart, of BNT162b2 or placebo. The trial end points were vaccine efficacy against laboratory-confirmed Covid-19 and safety, which were both evaluated through 6 months after vaccination.”
“…During the blinded, placebo-controlled period, 15 participants in the BNT162b2 group and 14 in the placebo group died; during the open-label period, 3 participants in the BNT162b2 group and 2 in the original placebo group who received BNT162b2 after unblinding died. None of these deaths were considered to be related to BNT162b2 by the investigators. Causes of death were balanced between BNT162b2 and placebo groups (Table S4).”
Based on these stats, the Pfizer vaccine was reaffirmed to have 90% plus efficacy rate, right?
Please note how many people died in the placebo group and in the BNT162b2 (Pfizer) group when it was unblinded and the placebo group received the jabs…
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110345
phoodoo,
Here are the results of the 6 month follow up (Pfizer Phase 3)
J-Mac,
But its not saying they died from Covid, right? They might have been shot?
Exactly!
Or, they could have died from heart attacks or strokes…
Keep in mind in the placebo group 2 people died of covid vs 1 in the vaccinated group.
velikovskys,
Here is Covid-19 risk assessment infection fatality rates published by WHO:
Results included 61 studies (74 estimates) and eight preliminary national estimates. Seroprevalence estimates ranged from 0.02% to 53.40%. Infection fatality rates
ranged from 0.00% to 1.63%, corrected values from 0.00% to 1.54%. Across 51 locations, the median COVID-19 infection fatality rate was 0.27% (corrected 0.23%): the rate was 0.09% in locations with COVID-19 population mortality rates less than the global average (under 118 deaths/million), 0.20% in locations with 118–500 COVID-19 deaths/million people and 0.57% in locations with over 500 COVID-19 deaths/million people. In people under 70 years, infection fatality rates ranged from 0.00% to 0.31% with crude and corrected medians of 0.05%.
https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf
I come from the families who have lived under many different tyrannic regimes: the Bolsheviks, the Nazis, the Communists. So, naturally we mistrust the governments because many of our family members ended up dead, or were sent to concentration camps, or Siberia, some of whom never returned because the governments had an underlying agenda..
Are there vital reasons to believe that covid-19 pandemic is used as an excuse for some other underlying agenda?
I believe there are a few valid reasons, some of which I have already pointed out within the last few months. I hope I’m wrong though…
No, there aren’t any reasons at all, other than frivolous nonsense reasons.
J-Mac,
This is comedy gold!
Thank you for pointing out that, after unblinding, there were zero deaths in the placebo group and five deaths amongst patients who had received the vaccine. That’s epic!
An “estimated cost of seven deaths”, you say? Estimated by whom? Steve Kirsch?
ROFL
DNA_Jock,
I hope you are right… I’m not so sure…
DNA_Jock,
Since you already know Steve Kirsch’s estimates, why don’t you challenge them and collect $2 million… I’m sure it wouldn’t be a comedy, if you were successful…
Until then… Lol
Well, yes, his estimates are hilariously wrong. I am surprised that you cannot see that. But to claim the reward, I would have to convince him that I have published the “correct values” for each of his looney-tunes estimates. If the methodology is utterly bogus, then how can there even be “correct values”? It is incoherent.
No matter, I was specifically making fun of his “estimate” that in the Pfizer trial the vaccine caused seven deaths.
Are you willing to defend this estimate?
Do you understand why it is obviously wrong?
Funny thing is, I can sort of forgive Kirsch for not understanding clinical trials, but you, J-Mac, are always making vague claims of medical expertise…
Doubt mainly, on many courses they sound a klaxon when storms with lightning are in the area . Hikers some , fisherman , construction workers . But one thing is clear 49 is way less than 400,000.
Most of those governments were quite clear what their agenda was. Just as the US government was when it came to native Americans.
Well , a world wide agenda , seamless coordination of hundreds of governments and agencies , top down planning and execution , Nope. A man of your vision would have been silenced if that was true .
Locally? Any disaster can viewed as an opportunity to gain wealth , for instance . A political leader might seek to use a pandemic to attract certain voting demographic demographic. But I don’t think that is what you mean.
Have you considered the valid reasons not to believe a sinister underlying agenda, estimate the likelihood of both? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
“That Franklin quote is used a lot. “ As the Brookings Institute’s Benjamin Wittes observes, “Very few people who quote these words, however, have any idea where they come from or what Franklin was really saying when he wrote them.”
Despite its many (many) variations, this is the actual quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
According to Wittes, the words appear in a letter widely presumed to be written by Franklin in 1755 on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor. “The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family,” he explains.
The letter wasn’t about liberty but about taxes and the ability to “raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him.”
Indeed, if you look at the text surrounding the famous quote, it’s pretty clearly about money: “Our assemblies have of late had so many supply bill, and of such different kinds, rejected, on various pretences,” wrote Franklin.”
If I were running a secret world wide evil shadow government, I would definitely make sure J-Mac kept going.
Good point
The first reason why something didn’t seem right, what made me think there may be an underlying agenda, and you should consider what I have already said before: Do we really have a real pandemic? As you already know, having direct access to 3 major hospitals in Toronto, and covid-19 bed status to 2 other large hospitals outside Toronto, we have not seen it. What we have witnessed since April 2020 has been the total disappearance of influenza and related to it upper respiratory infections that became covid-19 cases. Out of 30K of influenza tests 7 were positive and then zero since then. How has the flu vanished, just like that, all over the world not only in Canada and the US – but also in countries and states, like Florida, with no restrictions, mask wearing or social distancing?
Here is the first clue: “Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19?”
“By the end of May 2021, the official CDC death count attributed to COVID-19 was approaching 600,000, as stated previously. This number has been disputed for many reasons. First, before COVID-19 testing began, or in the absence of testing, after it was available, the diagnosis of COVID-19 (in the USA) could be made by the presumption of the healthcare practitioner that COVID-19 existed [4,18]. Second, after testing began, the main diagnostic used was the RT-PCR test. This test was done at very high amplification cycles, ranging up to 45 [[19], [20], [21]]. In this range, very high numbers of false positives are possible [22].
Third, most deaths attributed to COVID-19 were elderly with high comorbidities [1,22]. As we showed in a previous study [22], attribution of death to one of many possible comorbidities or especially toxic exposures in combinations [23] is highly arbitrary and can be viewed as a political decision more than a medical decision. For over 5 % of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death [24]. These deaths with comorbidities could equally have been ascribed to any of the comorbidities [22]. Thus, the actual number of COVID-19-based deaths in the USA may have been on the order of 35,000 or less, characteristic of a mild flu season.
Even the 35,000 deaths may be an overestimate. Comorbidities were based on the clinical definition of specific diseases, using threshold biomarker levels and relevant symptoms for the disease(s) of interest [25,26]. But many people have what are known as pre-clinical conditions. ”
So, the clue to the underlying agenda (if there is one) or one its components, would be why would the governments want to vaccinate children who virtually have zero risk of getting ill and dying from, or with covid-19?
I hope you understand why I’m suspicious that something is not right…
The second clue is this: Are we really vaccinating the whole world? Do we really have vaccines for SARS CoV-2?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221475002100161X
J-Mac,
There’s perhaps a way of looking at how the Covid-19 pandemic has affected death rates. One can get a projected death rate by averaging figures, say over the 5 years prior to the commencement of the pandemic,and use it to produce a projected figure for pandemic years. Comparing this to actual death rate gives us a measure of excess deaths, the increase on what we would expect if there were no pandemic. Here is a site reporting data. I imagine these figures would be hard to massage.
Here us a chart showing cumulative excess deaths for six countries including USA and Russia. Both are getting near a million.
The second clue is this: Are we really vaccinating people with covid-19 vaccines?
We were told that covid-19 vaccines are 90% plus effective or that they have almost 100% efficacy. What we weren’t told is what that means. In other words, the vaccine propaganda used, or misused, the relative risk reduction that the vaccines seem to provide. Most people, including many medical professionals, thought that vaccines prevent infections with SARS CoV-2.
Do they? What do we know today?
We know that it was a trick the governments, individual politicians, and so-called scientists and mainstream media used to get everyone on board to roll up their sleeves..
Here it is why it was a “noble lie”:
Outcome Reporting Bias in COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine Clinical Trials
Abstract
Relative risk reduction and absolute risk reduction measures in the evaluation of clinical trial data are poorly understood by health professionals and the public. The absence of reported absolute risk reduction in COVID-19 vaccine clinical trials can lead to outcome reporting bias that affects the interpretation of vaccine efficacy. The present article uses clinical epidemiologic tools to critically appraise reports of efficacy in Pfzier/BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 mRNA vaccine clinical trials. Based on data reported by the manufacturer for Pfzier/BioNTech vaccine BNT162b2, this critical appraisal shows: relative risk reduction, 95.1%; 95% CI, 90.0% to 97.6%; p = 0.016; absolute risk reduction, 0.7%; 95% CI, 0.59% to 0.83%; p < 0.000. For the Moderna vaccine mRNA-1273, the appraisal shows: relative risk reduction, 94.1%; 95% CI, 89.1% to 96.8%; p = 0.004; absolute risk reduction, 1.1%; 95% CI, 0.97% to 1.32%; p < 0.000. Unreported absolute risk reduction measures of 0.7% and 1.1% for the Pfzier/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines, respectively, are very much lower than the reported relative risk reduction measures. Reporting absolute risk reduction measures is essential to prevent outcome reporting bias in evaluation of COVID-19 vaccine efficacy.
This was published in Feb 2021 but nobody even bothered to mention the difference between the relative risk reduction and absolute risk reduction of so called vaccines..
Now we know that vaccinated, especially young people, are more likely to get infected with the “new variant” Omicron (some so-called evolutionary experts even believe that omicron was another lab leak, just like SARS CoV-2).
So, where are we now?
We are now in the situation where governments, individual politicians and so-called scientists mandate boosters 3 months after 2 shots of the so-called vaccines that supposedly had close to 100% efficacy.
Is this a part of an underlying agenda? Or, is it just pure lying by the authorities? What’s the motive? Are they all corrupted to the core worldwide?
What if the so-called vaccines have long-term side-effects?
The Russia result is especially interesting. Compare the excess deaths of 990,000 with the reported deaths from Covid-19 at 290,000. Something doesn’t seem right.
I’m aware of that. Have you looked at excess deaths from say 2016 to 2020 and before vaccination lockdowns and after? Don’t forget that “pandemic” and lockdowns contributed to excess deaths too….
There is already evidence that catching Covid-19 can lead to long-term effects in the previosly young and healthy.
ETA
See here for the UK, admittedly on self-reported info.
One thing I know: In Russia alcohol and drug abuse related deaths have gone through the roof… They already had major problems before “pandemic”…
J-Mac,
And I thought no ‘flu would have reduced excess deaths. What causes of death have increased over this period? Suicide due to mental health issues? Over-eating? Lack of excercise?
J-Mac,
As you say, alcohol already a problem so already accounted for.
This is nothing new. If you looked at what damage influenzas and even bacterial infections can do to young people and old, you’d know…
Some “clinicians” claim cytokine storm is a new damage done by SARS CoV-2 causing covid-19. Totally false:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm
What does abuse of alcohol and drugs do to your mental health?
J-Mac,
Your claim seemed to be that getting vaccinated is worse than catching Covid. I’d like to get specific on that issue. If you doubt the reliability of excess death data then there isn’t going to be much value in a discussion.
That Kirsch site (J-Mac’s source for that hilarious graphic) is a veritable treasure trove of derp. I think I had seen the inimitable Dr Jessica Rose (artist, musician, mathematician, professional surfer, biologist…) previously on the tinfoil hat circuit, but Kirsch publishes her epic analysis of the VAERS database, that reaches the conclusion (verbatim, in its entirety, down to the typo, I kid you not):
So, apparently, VAERS reports a lot of adverse events in the under-10 population (and the over-60…); but not for COVID vaccines, where the AEs seem to be more prevalent in middle aged people. Stop the presses!
She ends her report with the positively JMackian use of ellipsis:
I can’t wait to see what she makes of the insanely high levels of Herpes Zoster AEs that she is observing in previous years! It doesn’t show up much as an AE for COVID vaccines…
I wonder why.
I am sure we can both find anecdotal evidence to suggest some people have succumbed to alcohol and drug abuse under lockdowns.
The flu didn’t disappear. It was rebranded thanks to RT-PCR test with 40 plus cycles…
But the flu is bound to be “resurrected” as soon as RT-PCR test cycles are lowered to 26 or so. Or, a new test will be introduced… It’s already happening in Sweden:
I’m impressed by anyone who can surf professionally… 😉
Sure… I happen to have contact with mental health specialists both in Canada and Eastern Europe… I’m sure we could find stats to confirm what the mental health workers have been alarming about the skyrocketing numbers.. Kids are another issue…