Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

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3,655 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. phoodoo: I don’t even buy your premise

    Why don’t you restate my premise in your own words, that’s be a laugh.

    As noted, I’ve never made the claim you’ve said I’ve made that the USA cannot be critiqued on such issues so what you think my premise is should be right out there with the unicorns.

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  2. phoodoo: Robinhood is going to get their asses sued but they are probably banking on the fact that the US supreme court is also so rigged that they will probably get away with this.

    Robinhood can do what they like, it’s in the agreement you see when you sign up. Shows what little you know.

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  3. phoodoo:I am glad you agree that the acts of the US government are despicable, and preclude the US from making any authoritative judgement about anyone else, based on their horrible human rights record.

    We could make that a more general rule. We could preclude any group with power from making a judgement about anyone else, based on their horrible human rights record. Should we make it apply even to the tenth generation?

    I’ll sign on to precluding those who behave horribly from positions of power. I struggle with atrocities committed by past generations. Can I meaningfully apologise for General Colonel* Dyer?

    *ETA

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  4. I thought of phoodoo when I read this article in the Guardian this morning.
    Some issues are clear and simple; you love Trump – you hate Trump, you love Marmite – you hate Marmite, you think Uighurs ought to have some measure of autonomy – you don’t.

    But when it comes to national treasures, things are less clear.

    The cult of Captain Tom is a cult of White British Nationalism.
    Fair comment? Outrageous slander?

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  5. Entropy:
    testing testing

    (html big didn’t work)

    Apparently it’s obsolete in HTML 5. You are supposed to use {font size=”em 1.3″} text to enlarge {/font} using angles of course but that might be restricted in WordPress.

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  6. Test Test

    ETA nope, doesn’t work in comments but it does work in OPs. You can change typeface and colour too. Whoopee, I feel a post coming on.

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  7. Alan Fox:
    Test Test

    ETA nope, doesn’t work in comments

    It works fine in my RSS reader, where is where I mostly read TSZ comments.

    It doesn’t work when reading the blog itself. There’s probably some CSS or similar that takes precedence.

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  8. Neil Rickert,

    Thanks for that, Neil. I used to use Thunderbird but I got out of the habit. I think you may have recommended another but I forget the name.

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  9. Alan Fox,

    Of course you know nothing about it. Because you have no interest in the biggest violators of civil rights on the planet. Or perhaps because you are being paid to ignore it.

    At least the things you complain about of China occur in their own country. A country in which the people overwhelmingly support their government. But if you were to hold an election in Palestine, would even ONE citizen vote to be imprisoned by Israel? They are competing with America to be the biggest jailers in the world (with America’s help-I guess they want to help the underdog).

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  10. phoodoo: At least the things you complain about of China occur in their own country.

    The Dutch House of Representatives has agreed last week that the Chinese treatment of the Uighurs qualifies as genocide. I don’t believe that the fact that this gross violation of human rights occurs within the borders of China will be a great consolation to the victims.

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  11. phoodoo: A country in which the people overwhelmingly support their government.

    https://www.tutor2u.net/history/reference/reasons-for-the-increase-in-support-for-the-nazis

    To broaden their appeal, the Nazis tailored their message to different parts of German society. For example, the party promised jobs for the unemployed, bread for the poor, and farmers were promised that their land would be protected from the Communists. For the wealthy, the Nazis promised to smash the Communists, and for business owners they promised they would deal with the trade unions.

    Yeah, because popular support means the government can do no wrong. I guess it also helps that if you are not seen to be a supporter of the government you also go to a camp. Or they run you over with tanks and use excavators to clear the dead away due to the sheer numbers….

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  12. phoodoo: Of course you know nothing about it.

    I’ve read the Yahoo news story, now. I’ve never come across Khalida Jarrar before. I usually rely on the Guardian as my main source of news so I site-searched the name. I got two hits:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/16/bewaretheidesofmarchorho

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/feb/23/pa-israel-ramallah-political-establishment

    I may have missed these articles when first published. There are many analogies with the Israel and Palestine situation and the Irish Troubles. There’s no denying the culpability of former Colonial powers in creating intolerable political débâcles.

    Because you have no interest in the biggest violators of civil rights on the planet.

    The US’s unquestioning support for Israel is a huge roadblock to a lasting peace

    Or perhaps because you are being paid to ignore it.

    No. Nor am I seeing the value in paying for someone’s ignorance.

    So, phoodoo, I am sympathetic to a just, equitable and long-lasting peace between Israel and Palestine incorporating self-determination. I think the two-state solution might be the answer. But my personal influence isn’t going to be enough.to bring it about. The US government has more influence and maybe free of Trump and the crazy evangelists, let’s hope they step up to the plate.

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  13. Corneel,

    The Chinese government has decided that the US is causing genocide on black male youths. When are the international sanctions against the US going to begin?

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  14. Alan Fox: So, phoodoo, I am sympathetic to a just, equitable and long-lasting peace between Israel and Palestine

    Peace between the jailers and the jailees?

    Yea, like why couldn’t the Jews just figure out a better way to get along with the Nazis? It seems the Jews just weren’t willing to negotiate earnestly with Hitler. A lot of Jews like tried to escape and shit. What choice did Hitler have?

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  15. phoodoo,

    I’m happy to attempt a dialogue with anyone if there is a point to it. If you are just going to Godwin threads, any and all discussion with you is, well, pointless.

    +1
  16. phoodoo: The Chinese government has decided that the US is causing genocide on black male youths.

    There are lots of non-government organisations who view what is happening in China as genocide.

    Do you have the numbers to justify this claim? If what is happening to black make youths in the US is genocide what do you call what is happening to the uighurs in China?

    Double-geoncide?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/9/13/china-holds-one-million-uighur-muslims-in-concentration-camps

    On the one side we have institutional racism and a history of white supremacy and on the other we have a government that is making a deliberate choice to imprison a million people in concentration camps.

    phoodoo’s behavior is understandable, given that resorting to whataboutism is really the only defense here.

    But he still does not understand that if what is happening in the US is bad, as he seems to think, then what is happening in China is worse, even if the majority of the population are not affected.

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  17. President Obama was once one of those black youths, and he became president.

    I wonder what the chances of an uighur becoming president of China are.

    phoodoo, is that going to happen? If not, why not and what does it say about opportunity in China vs the US?

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  18. phoodoo: …why capitalism is so fucked up…

    Not convinced that capitalism is the villain in this Yahoo news story. Seems more like Canada’s legal and judicial system needs a few tweaks. But we could say that about many countries.

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  19. Alan Fox,

    Looks to me like the rule of law is the villain of this piece, which would explain why phoodoo finds it so offensive. He’s not a fan, you know.
    I note that there is no right of way over the property in question (hence the appeal to its use by an indigenous village); it is the fact that the land owner is rich that has everyone upset (& phoodoo hates rich people).
    If, instead, it was a subsistence farmer struggling to get by, and hordes of yuppy scum eager to go fishing who were vandalizing the farmer’s gates and fences, the reaction might be different. “Hard cases”, and all that.
    [In an unrelated note, our house abuts a lake that is public property. There is a right of way to access the lake, but not through our yard.]

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  20. DNA_Jock: In an unrelated note, our house abuts a lake that is public property. There is a right of way to access the lake, but not through our yard.

    Sounds lovely!

    DNA_Jock: I note that there is no right of way over the property in question…

    Land ownership. There’s a big subject to pass time during Covid curfew. I wonder what phoodoo thinks about the Chineses system under communism where all land belonged to the state. I’m not familiar with how use of land is decided and allotted, presumably by some kind of leasing system. It seemed to create many opportunities for corruption. I’ve been watching a BBC series currently available on Iplayer called Can’t Get You Out of My Head which, among other things, constrasts and compares various governments’ approaches to land and had an interesting take on Bo Xilai and the rise and fall of commerce-driven ideas.

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  21. DNA_Jock: Looks to me like the rule of law is the villain of this piece

    Like laws that say, if you have enough money, just buy everything you want, and fuck those who are hurt by it.

    Maybe one day Jeff Bezos can buy all of California, and then if people want to go to the ocean, well, sorry, there is still the east coast. Or Bill Gates can buy all the clean water. Need to live, well, maybe Gates can negotiate a price you can live with.

    So it seems you are even in disagreement with Alan on this one Jock-Alan agrees its a problem, just that he thinks the laws aren’t the problem, the courts are. You think its not a problem at all!

    Your position is so fucked up you can’t even get Alan to cheer you on. Now that’s bad!

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  22. phoodoo: So it seems you are even in disagreement with Alan on this one Jock-Alan agrees its a problem, just that he thinks the laws aren’t the problem, the courts are.

    You are reading a lot into a few words I’ve typed into a comment here. As a general principle, I think people will put up with any shitty government as an alternative to anarchy. But if enough people have little or nothing to lose and no legal way to advance their grievances, the result can lead to disorder and even revolution. Look at Myanmar.

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  23. Alan Fox,

    Of course you would try to rearrange the entire English language to avoid admitting you disagree with Jock. But people who do actually know what English means can figure out :

    Not convinced that capitalism is the villain in this Yahoo news story. Seems more like Canada’s legal and judicial system needs a few tweaks.

    without any need for new interpretations.

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  24. phoodoo, Seems to me both Jock and I were saying how things are and there could be further discussion on how things ought to be.

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  25. Alan Fox,

    Jock doesn’t find it offensive. He said almost precisely that.

    If you want to trip all over yourself trying to take it back now saying you also don’t find it offensive, because Jock said it isn’t, have at it.

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  26. BTW, I happen to know a thing or two about Stan Kroenke. He is a piece of shit. Has been for years. Jock would love him.

    Guess whose campaign he donated to for the 2016 Presidential campaign? Hillary (I guess he figured she would win). But she lost. So then he gave 1 million to Trumps inauguration committee. Such a man of principal!

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  27. phoodoo: I happen to know a thing or two about Stan Kroenke.

    Well, I don’t. He doesn’t impinge on my existence at all as far as I can see. Is Stan Kroenke a worse piece of shit than Trump? Cruz? Manu Macron? Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg? Have you a point or did this dispute over access to some lakes in Canada just catch your eye for no reason? Did you follow Bo Xilai’s career at all?

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  28. Here’s a list of life expectancy in the US:

    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/which-states-longest-life-expectancies-shortest-life-expectancies-160420160.html

    1. Hawaii, 81.0 years

    2. California, 80.8 years

    3. New York, 80.5 years

    4. Minnesota, 80.5 years

    5. Connecticut, 80.4 years

    6. Massachusetts, 80.1 years

    7. Washington state, 80.0 years

    8. Colorado, 80.0 years

    9. New Jersey, 79.8 years

    10. Rhode Island, 79.8 years

    11. Oregon, 79.7 years

    12. Utah, 79.6 years

    13. Vermont, 79.3 years

    14. North Dakota, 79.3 years

    15. Wisconsin, 79.3 years

    16. Iowa, 79.2 years

    17. New Hampshire, 79.1 years

    18. Nebraska, 79.1 years

    19. Idaho, 79.0 years

    20. Virginia, 79.0 years

    21. South Dakota, 78.9 years

    22. Florida, 78.9 years

    23. Illinois, 78.8 years

    24. Montana, 78.7 years

    25. Arizona, 78.7 years

    26. Maine, 78.6 years

    27. Maryland, 78.5 years

    28. Texas, 78.4 years

    29. Pennsylvania, 78.1 years

    30. Wyoming, 78.1 years

    31. Kansas, 78.0 years

    32. Alaska, 78.0 years

    33. Nevada, 77.9 years

    34. Delaware, 77.8 years

    35. Michigan, 77.7 years

    36. District of Columbia, 77.7 years

    37. North Carolina, 77.6 years

    38. Georgia, 77.2 years

    39. New Mexico, 77.2 years

    40. Indiana, 76.8 years

    41. Ohio, 76.8 years

    42. Missouri, 76.6 years

    43. South Carolina, 76.5 years

    44. Arkansas, 75.6 years

    45. Oklahoma, 75.6 years

    46. Louisiana, 75.6 years

    47. Tennessee, 75.5 years

    48. Kentucky, 75.3 years

    49. Alabama, 75.1 years

    50. Mississippi, 74.6 years

    51. West Virginia, 74.4 years

    Notice anything interesting?

    You can almost just lay a map down of liberal to conservative states and it would match nearly exactly to this list. Hmmm…I wonder why?

    Note-Alan won’t care because it doesn’t affect him. Got it.

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  29. I’m going to guess that you are not going for the higher per capita incomes in the states with high life expectancy.
    Lower rates of smoking and obesity look like a major culprit.
    Don’t be so coy — what is your point?

    (In case anyone is wondering, that’s the District of Columbia [!])

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  30. DNA_Jock,

    Yea District of Columbia, number 1 in Income, 36th in life expectancy.
    Alaska 9th median income, 32nd life expectancy.
    Minnesota 4th life expectancy, 14th income.
    Maine 36th income, 26th life expectancy.
    New York 15th income, 3rd life expectancy.
    Vermont 23rd, 13th life expectancy.
    California only 7th median income, 2nd life expectancy.
    Maryland 2nd median income, 27th life expectancy.
    Wisconsin 24th income, 15th life expectancy.
    Oregon 20th income, 11 life expectancy.
    Georgia 28 income, 38 life expectancy.
    Virginia 11th income, 20th life expectancy.
    Idaho 37th income, 19 life expectancy.
    Rhode Island 10th life expectancy, 18th income.

    Not exactly 1-1. Oh, But still…..

    And yea, many republican states are fat, poor and unhealthy… Coincidence?

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  31. phoodoo: Coincidence?

    Life expectancy in 1990 in China was 69.3 years! In the 1990’s China had a health profile very similar to much of the developing world.

    In China your wealth directly correlates to your heath: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/issue/vol381no9882/PIIS0140-6736(13)X6028-3
    http://www.healthdata.org/news-release/rapid-change-china-brings-significant-improvements-health

    China’s infant mortality rate (8.996) is alongside countries such as Lebanon (9.114) and Turkey (7.922). Russia, Serbia, Cuba all do much better.

    China Infant Mortality Rate 1950-2021

    In 1990 it was 41.869!

    phoodoo: Coincidence?

    No, as usual the poor suffer the most.

    And anyway, you realize that you’d still be better off in the USA vs China for life expectancy right now?
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-lifespan-idUSKCN1IV15L
    In terms of overall life expectancy China is also catching up with the United States, which Reuters calculations suggest it is on course to overtake around 2027.

    So to be clear, it seems the worst in that list you quoted is still better then China’s best.

    Great self own phoodoo!

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  32. phoodoo: And yea, many republican states are fat, poor and unhealthy… Coincidence?

    Given you’d still live longer then in China, what are you saying about the Chinese?

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  33. I do now understand why phoodoo hates Bill Gates so much: Bill and Melinda are responsible for all those excess deaths in Xinjiang.
    Well, he’s responsible for us knowing about them.
    The bastard!
    Separately, phoodoo needs to distinguish
    1) Republican, therefore fat
    2) Fat, therefore Republican
    3) A third factor causing both
    As Charlie is oh-so fond of saying, correlation…

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  34. phoodoo,

    Ah yes, “stupidity” is my favorite explanation too, when I am feeling sanctimonious. Unfortunately, as a woman I hired who grew up in Missouri pointed out to me, it is not tenable: too much gene flow. A woefully bad education system seems like the simplest explanation. When she is out of earshot (she’s devout), I might also blame the detrimental effect of religion on education, but that’s my sanctimony showing up again…Get down, Shep!
    BTW, if you are trying to troll Republicans, you’ve come to the wrong website.

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  35. DNA_Jock,

    No, I think a lot of your objections are that you share a lot of the republicans ideals, just not all of them. You just are reluctant to admit that. I think if it weren’t for the fact that a lot of republicans are religious, you would happily be a republican.

    First off, you are clearly an asshole. That is obvious. You also constantly defend the rich, the powerful and big corporate interests. Yea, you care about the environment, but only as much as it affects you. You also spout this idea that there are “good” republicans, but when I ask you what about them are good, you have a hard time saying which of their republican ideas are good (maybe you afraid your colleagues might be listening). And any criticism of capitalist greed, no its not capitalism that is the problem-the market is good, capitalism is good, and if it fucks over a large part of the population, well, that just the way the market works, accept it! Its why you love defending Gates, et al. “Hey man its his money, if he wants to only give .1% of his wealth away while claiming he is giving away 90%, well, that’s just smart marketing, don’t be so critical. Lauren Jobs, Bezos, Zuckerberg, ditto. And hey, about those taxes, backoff”

    You a fraud Jock, you ain’t fooling me. Never mind that the entire premise that there is a level playing field for everyone is utter bullshit, which makes the whole capitalist dreamscape as much of a fraud as you are. Go whisper your naughty secrets to your police union brothers Jock-you aren’t out there fighting for anyone but yourself. That’s what true assholes do. I have seen your type plenty.

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  36. OMagain: phoodoo: The FBI use psychics all the time, fool.

    Sorry, still can’t tell you how I know. Its drives you crazy doesn’t it?

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