Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

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3,272 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. phoodoo:
    Abraham Lincoln got us into one of the worst wars in the nations history, and there is a statue of him, and yet people wanted to get rid of Nixon because he eliminated the cabinet position of the Post Office.Weird!

    Despite studying American history, I wasn’t aware of either of these claims. My impression was that Lincoln “got us into” that war when it became obvious to the slave states that as the nation added states where slavery wasn’t economical (and would be sending anti-slavery Senators into a delicately balanced Senate, to their detriment) those states precipitated a war. I also learned that not too long after the end of that war, technology like the cotton gin would have rendered slavery uneconomical anyway.

    Being President when someone else starts a wars is a dicey position. One could argue that FDR “got us into” WWII, though without American participation, that war would likely have found us whether we liked it or not.

    As for Nixon, as with any President, a goodly percentage of the nation wanted to get rid of him for any of a large number of pretexts. There has never been a President that many people didn’t want to get rid of. I’ll grant that eliminating the cabinet position of the post office is a stretch. Surely those people could have found better reasons, since Nixon was nearly as corrupt as Trump.

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  2. petrushka: I know I’m being perceived as a Trump supporter, so I will go on record as never having voted for a Republican at any level in my life.

    So you’ve missed out on one of life’s great pleasures. A shame. But you could remedy that this year. 🙂

    By the way, it wasn’t just Republicans that supported Trump. But don’t tell phoodoo.

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  3. Mung: So you’ve missed out on one of life’s great pleasures. A shame. But you could remedy that this year. 🙂

    By the way, it wasn’t just Republicans that supported Trump. But don’t tell phoodoo.

    Right, even the Russian Government supported him, and they are a very hard sell.

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  4. I’m not one to intrude on private grief but having watched the video of the interview referred to in this newspaper article, I do hope, for the sake of millions of ordinary US citizens, that voters have woken up and will stay awake till November.

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  5. Alan Fox:
    I’m not one to intrude on private grief but having watched the video of the interview referred to in this newspaper article, I do hope, for the sake of millions of ordinary US citizens, that voters have woken up and will stay awake till November.

    Just another day at the office for Trump. The best part for me is Trump argues that the US is doing great because the the number of deaths is low compared huge numbers of cases the US has.

    Then argues that we test too much, this is bad because testing shows the high number of infections. The same infections which allows him to claim we have a low mortality rate per case which is good.

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  6. Mung,

    Terrific federal response on the virus so far! You must be so proud.

    Imagine if you had a crystal ball six months ago and you had to pick which country would fuck up the handling of the crisis the worst, what far out reach across the cosmos of time space consciousness prognosticator could have ever imagined it would be the US? Talk about a crazy prediction! Who could have known?? This administration, full of the brightest, only the best (except for all the idiots and morons and crazies who have left of course) minds in the country, a Hall of Fame of accomplishments, the swamp drainers extraordinaire, (Steven Mnuchin, Larry Kudlow, Ben Carson, Betsy DeVos, Mike Pence, Wilber Ross, Mark Meadows, Jared Kuschner, Stephen Miller-if only they could bring back Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka out of retirement-with this powerhouse what could possibly go wrong??)

    But somewhere, holed up in a cave, probably somewhere in the lower Himalayas, there exists an old man with a beard, a modern day Nostradamus, who some say actually predicted this, this tsunami of incompetence, this triple cyclone of pure unadulterated obscene act of stupidity personified would come to fruition. What kind of powers must this one man hold, who could have seen so crazily into the future with his third eye and have known it would be the greatest nation of earth, the land of the free, the home of the brave? The greatest nation the world has ever and will ever see, how could he have known?

    It boggles the mind, what that man must know. No one could possibly have known!

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  7. newton,

    What’s the problem, the stars and stripes only accounts for 25% of the world’s total coronavirus deaths. How can 194 other countries combined come even close to the USA USA USA? They are number one for a reason! I say bound together, go for 30%. 50%? Come on, you can do it, what’s holding you back, hydroxychloroquine? Come on dam it, don’t give up now, your lead is insurmountable.

    The man in the cave could see it. Don’t ask how.

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  8. phoodoo: Imagine if you had a crystal ball six months ago and you had to pick which country would fuck up the handling of the crisis the worst

    Too easy.

    We already knew that Trump was president. We already knew that he appoints himself expert on topics where he lacks knowledge. We already knew that he makes everything about his ego.

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  9. I’m no fortune teller, but I recognize a hustler.

    It’s someone who makes you think you are smarter than they are.

    Hillary got hustled in Pennsylvania, et al.

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  10. newton: Just another day at the office for Trump.

    That’s the scary thing. Whilst many people, including myself, thought, when he was elected, Trump would be an unmitigated disaster, I certainly didn’t expect to witness how his behaviour would become, if not normal, unsurprising.

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  11. Alan Fox: That’s the scary thing. Whilst many people, including myself, thought, when he was elected, Trump would be an unmitigated disaster, I certainly didn’t expect to witness how his behaviour would become, if not normal, unsurprising.

    He still has the ability to surprise for me, wishing a alleged child abuser well, but it has lost its shock. There is no bar too low.

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  12. newton: He still has the ability to surprise for me, wishing a alleged child abuser well, but it has lost its shock. There is no bar too low.

    What he said is equivalent to “bless her heart.”

    Maybe you have to be a southerner.

    And perhaps you haven’t noticed that when Trump wants to manipulate press coverage, he says something that forces the media to take the side he wants them to take.

    By continually calling attention to Biden’s mental condition, he has forced democrats to deny it. And prevented them from finding a more competent candidate.

    Same technique with the debates.

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  13. petrushka: What he said is equivalent to “bless her heart.”Maybe you have to be a southerner.

    Grew up in New Orleans , live in Central Texas. Kind of understand the idiom.

    Two ways “bless her heart” is used , first actual sympathy, “she invested her money in Trump University and now she is on welfare, bless her heart” second , a faux Southern civility , “ she couldn’t spell cat even if you spotted her the C and the A, bless her little heart “

    in an interview with “Axios on HBO” that aired Monday night, Trump was asked why he wished Maxwell well when she’s been arrested on allegations of child sex trafficking.
    “Well, first of all you don’t know that,” Trump said to the allegations of child sex trafficking.

    Trump regularly accuses people of criminal activity without evidence.For some reason Trump actually defends the presumption of innocence. Despite multiple witnesses to the abuse. Red Flag #1

    Her friend or boyfriend (Epstein) was either killed or committed suicide.She’s now in jail. Yeah, I wish her well.

    Not a snarky version, that would leave actually sympathy. During your time in protective services did you ever wish a serial abuser , identified by multiple witnesses who was caught and was in jail “ well”? Nothing about wishing the actual victims of the abuse “well”. Red Flag #2

    .

    I’d wish you well.

    Obvious lie, Trump cares little for the press

    I’d wish a lot of people well.Good Luck

    Sure people who support him accused of crimes, Stone, Flynn, tiki torch carrying confederate statue lovers. To 150,000 dead folks “ It is what it is”

    Let them prove somebody was guilty.”

    Let that sink in, Donald Trump calling for evidenced based judgement. Central Park Five ring a bell? Obama committing greatest crime in history.

    Why might someone who normally headlong rushes into conclusion about everything and has no filter about taking a position suddenly demand proof, a cautious approach? Not decry her accused actions as liberal failures? We are not talking about a normal person , but Donald Trump.

    Two things come to mind, one he considers the crimes, the abuse of young women for sex , not really that bad. It is just a perk of being a rich guy, you can get away with grabbing stuff. They get paid.

    Two ,she has dirt on him, we know he is lying when he repeatedly says he hasn’t been following something

    You wanted to talk about abuse, Trump has bragged about creeping Miss Teen America contestants. The only person he is wishing well is the accused perp not the victims. What is your expert opinion?

    This is just a distraction, he thinks it is electorally beneficial to appear supportive notorious accused sex trafficker, will get those suburban women with daughters back on his side ? Or appeal to the old lecherous men bloc out there?

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  14. newton,

    Regarding Maxwell, I see similarities with Roger Stone. Keep the faith and Trump will see you OK.

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  15. petrushka: By continually calling attention to Biden’s mental condition, he has forced democrats to deny it. And prevented them from finding a more competent candidate.

    I think you are wrong about this as well. That was the previous race. He tried that tactic with the test, he bragged about how he aced the test, a test which it turns on is aimed at dementia, which makes you wonder why it was even administered? He had some lame reason, we know probably lying. Biden never responded, Democrats mocked Trump. This time Trump’s incompetence is in full view.

    Not sure why you think Democrats need to look for another candidate candidate, and Trump is preventing that. Biden is ahead of Trump, We know Trump changing his tune on masks shows that he is worried,he fired his crooked campaign manager, he can’t rally, convention impact will be reduced. Right now Trump is the best weapon the Democrats have. Democrats need no drama.

    And this time the Democrats have an unusual ally in the Lincoln project, no one is nastier than Republicans when it come to attack ads.

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  16. Alan Fox:
    newton,

    Regarding Maxwell, I see similarities with Roger Stone. Keep the faith and Trump will see you OK.

    That certainly is a possibility. Trump does have certain verbal tells. He is always lying, it is his choice of which lies to tell is instructive.

    He could grant her amnesty with the reasoning Epstein died in jail, she is in danger. Used that in Roger Stone’s case. Already Trump’s press shill has floated that rationale for wishing her “well”.

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  17. Yeah, Trump is a master of distraction. He has a knack for saying outrageous things, telling bogglingly whopping lies, changing the subject. I was amused to note that over in the right wing media, if you go there, you will be carpet bombed with claims that Biden is ducking debates, along with the usual demeaning speculation as to why he needs to duck. Not once does Fox, or OAN, or Brietbart mention that Biden has agreed to 3 debates, and Trump has yet to agree to a single one. The debate controversy is entirely imaginary. The coronavirus, ignored on those media, isn’t quite so imaginary.

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  18. I do wonder how awful a nominee would have to be to lose the support of the Republican rump. The bar is low already.

    We have an exact parallel over here, and a similar excuse culture in which bumbling incompetence is seen as the hallmark of a master strategist.

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  19. Meanwhile Hyatt hotels CEO says that their business could improve a lot if the US could do as good of a job as China in handling the virus – he said enviously.

    Imagine how many other CEO s are thinking, ‘Why did we have to end up with this idiot in charge? What a disaster ‘

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  20. phoodoo:
    Meanwhile Hyatt hotels CEO says that their business could improve a lot if the US could do as good of a job as China in handling the virus – he said enviously.

    Imagine how many other CEO s are thinking,‘Why did we have to end up with this idiot in charge? What a disaster ‘

    155, 000 dead Americans were unavailable for comment.

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  21. Allan Miller:
    I do wonder how awful a nominee would have to be to lose the support of the Republican rump. The bar is low already.

    Some investigators, digging into this more than the usual talking heads, claim that the problem lies ultimately with the Great Unwashed Ignorami. These are folks who pay little attention to politics, have no specific knowledge of what damage is being done, have always voted Republican (as their parents and grandparents did as well), and get their vague impressions from the most watched news channel there is – Fox.

    A recent poll of how trusted the newscasters are, said that among the 5 least trusted nationwide are Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski. Only Hannity cracked the top on the conservative side. Conversely, among the most trusted are Tucker Carlson and Rush Limbaugh.

    This pattern of misinformed general disinterest translates into significant Republican voting majorities in a great many gerrymandered districts and rural states. Republicans in Congress grit their teeth, duck questions, produce lame excuses (like “I didn’t read that”) not out of support for Trump, but out of fear of losing re-election. They can’t educate voters they know aren’t listening, and they’d rather risk nuclear war than losing an election.

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  22. Allan Miller:
    We have an exact parallel over here, and a similar excuse culture in which bumbling incompetence is seen as the hallmark of a master strategist.

    There too? We’re surrounded!

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  23. I see Pandas Thumb is back up (a few glitches to sort). Well done, Joe, Wesley and Reed!

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  24. I see Pandas Thumb is back up (a few glitches to sort). Well done, Joe, Wesley and Reed!

    I see Pandas Thumb is back up (a few glitches to sort). Well done, Joe, Wesley and Reed!

    I see Pandas Thumb is back up (a few glitches to sort). Well done, Joe, Wesley and Reed!

    A lot of echo.

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  25. Some good news, Biden has picked Kamala Harris. Probably his best move so far.

    I would imagine Booker and Yang are also waiting in the wings for cabinet positions.

    There is still hope.

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  26. phoodoo: A lot of echo.

    You seem remarkably reluctant, as do others of your ilk, to start up a non-echo chamber discussion forum. It seems that doing actual work is something for other people to do for IDers.

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  27. phoodoo: Some good news, Biden has picked Kamala Harris. Probably his best move so far.

    They say she has the black vote locked up.

    Seriously, if Biden, with his senate record, and Harris, with her prosecutor record, were statues, they would be pulled down.

    It’s uphill all the way.

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  28. petrushka,

    Right, right, says Petrushka the non-republican. Sure.

    The orange idiots latest refrain is that if he hadn’t fucked up the virus response so spectacularly, he could easily win re-election-even over George Washington. If only…

    Usually, in times of national crisis a nation’s leader gains in popularity, as a unifying presence to guide the nation. But no, no, the orange idiot is special in this regard. He is certainly the only leader in the world who is roundly decried for his complete lack of leadership and grace. A singularly spectacular idiot.

    What a remarkable downgrading of Americas prestige in the world, unlike any in history, that probably won’t be restored for 100 years. Until everyone on the planet who has witnessed this is no longer alive-if even then.

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  29. phoodoo: Until everyone on the planet who has witnessed this is no longer alive-if even then.

    Wah wah wah.
    People shouldn’t be able to die. people shouldn’t be able to lose possessions. People shouldn’t have heartache. People shouldn’t have to work hard. People shouldn’t get hurt when they fall of a cliff. People should never feel sick.

    This is is the only way to satisfy the demands of those who claim that every time something unfortunate happens, it counts as more proof that there isn’t a God.

    What is happening might be unfortunate but how do we know this, since it seems anyone can decide what is necessary suffering and what is unnecessary? So if someone decides its all necessary, then God has done perfectly.

    And so perhaps it’s necesseasry for the orange one to do what he is doing.

    It can’t be whipped cream and masturbation all the time phoodoo.
    And so what if everyone on planet dies. You think a loving God would give everyone heaven, just because that would be loving. So, no morality, and no mortality, just heaven for all? Just because.

    And then how many souls should there be in Heaven? 1 Billion? 1 Trillion? Well, he is God you say, so he can make as many as he wants. So an infinite number of souls given infinite joy, infinitely. Short of this, God is a failure to you.

    Right?

    So suck it up.

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  30. I don’t have much visceral interest in politics.

    Biden is not mentally competent anymore. Harris is a sane person signaling that the moderates in the democratic party are in charge. In most presidencies, the party machinery is in charge, so all that is required is a competent speaker.

    This is an unusual year. I don’t know what will happen, but it won’t be a cakewalk for the democrats.

    It’s interesting that in 24 hours, it’s Harris/Biden.

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  31. When I say the moderates are in charge, I don’t imply anything about success.

    In a year when anti-police sentiment is at an all time high, the democrats nominate the sponsor of the 1994 crime bill, and a marijuana prosecutor. That’s why I say it’s uphill.

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  32. The financial reporters are claiming Wall Street is responding favorably to the Harris nomination.

    I read that as democrats returning to the Clinton faction, and away from the Sanders faction.

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  33. petrushka: Biden is not mentally competent anymore.

    What do you base your mental evaluation on? Has there been a radical change from past behavior or has he always been not competent?

    Harris is a sane person signaling that the moderates in the democratic party are in charge.

    Curious, what kind of VP would a mentally incompetent person make if they were in charge? Insane?

    Biden is considered a moderate, it does make sense that the moderates are in charge. The list of the people on his committee reflect that.

    In most presidencies, the party machinery is in charge, so all that is required is a competent speaker.

    Seems simplistic, Trump obviously is neither a competent speaker nor manipulated by the Party apparatus. The Presidents are the de facto head of the party, I agree there can be different goals. I think the big donors probably exert more influence than the party Bigwigs.

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  34. petrushka: I read that as democrats returning to the Clinton faction, and away from the Sanders faction.

    Relief it is not Warren ,more likely.

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  35. I do not know if Biden is intellectually impaired, but he seems to be. His communication is certainly impaired.

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  36. petrushka:
    I do not know if Biden is intellectually impaired, but he seems to be. His communication is certainly impaired.

    Biden has never been a gifted public speaker. I understand that most politicians, in order to campaign effectively, need more than average ability to redirect, dodge, equivocate, and produce long superficially coherent responses to what nobody asked. Biden has never really got the hang of this.

    I consider him to be like the highly skilled studio musician with debilitating stage fright. What you see is less than what’s there, exactly the opposite of Trump, who knows how to work a crowd into a mob and turn ignorance into fanaticism, but cannot either read or listen. Is that really what we need?

    (And I also kind of wonder why Trump was administered a dementia test a first grader could have passed easily. Whose idea was that, and what prompted it?)

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  37. phoodoo:
    petrushka,

    You don’t think the orange idiot’s speech is impaired, or is it that he always was dumb?

    Give Trump credit here. He knows instinctively how to whistle to his fellow bigots, and convince them he shares their prejudices (which he does) and he’s just like them. All the while always retaining plausible deniability.

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  38. Flint,

    And he still stumbles over words just as much as Biden does. So I am just wondering why the self-professed non-republican voter Petrushka only notices this in Biden but doesn’t notice when the orange idiot does it daily.

    The orange idiot has a distinct advantage in this regard-his base is just as ignorant as he is.

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  39. phoodoo:
    Flint,

    And he still stumbles over words just as much as Biden does.So I am just wondering why the self-professed non-republican voter Petrushka only notices this in Biden but doesn’t notice when the orange idiot does it daily.

    The orange idiot has a distinct advantage in this regard-his base is just as ignorant as he is.

    To quote Paul Simon:
    All lies and jest
    Still a man hears what he wants to hear
    And disregards the rest.

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  40. petrushka: I do not know if Biden is intellectually impaired, but he seems to be. His communication is certainly impaired.

    You said he was not mentally competent, seemed pretty definitive.

    If it comes to reading a speech , he looked less impaired than Trump. Not Obama or Reagan level but fairly close to W. A president who realized that the job is more having rallies or being on TV might be a nice change.

    Biden certainly looks to be in better shape visually than Trump if that counts for something.

    Harris and Biden make a pretty nice team , she certainly capable of calling Trump out on his shit and tucking her children into bed.

    Right now it looks like the Trump team is meeting with Kanye helping get into the election to bleed support from Democrats

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  41. phoodoo: And he still stumbles over words just as much as Biden does. So I am just wondering why the self-professed non-republican voter Petrushka only notices this in Biden but doesn’t notice when the orange idiot does it daily.

    To be fair, Petrushka said he hadn’t voted for a Republican, not that he disagreed with Trump.

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  42. Flint: Give Trump credit here. He knows instinctively how to whistle to his fellow bigots, and convince them he shares their prejudices (which he does) and he’s just like them. All the while always retaining plausible deniability.

    That is why Sarah Cooper lip syncing is so interesting , when you see the words Trump says come from a normal person, they make little sense.

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  43. newton: To be fair, Petrushka said he hadn’t voted for a Republican, not that he disagreed with Trump.

    To be fair I never claimed that he disagreed with the orange idiot. He claimed that he never votes republican. I guess they are just not right wing enough for him, he probably just votes a straight Neo-Nazi ticket.

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