Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

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2,921 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. Question for y’all: the good folks at Uncommon Descent are spending a lot of time these days talking about cultural Marxism and the Frankfurt School. What they are saying is completely misleading and distorting, to say the least. Usually we don’t talk much politics here. Would there be any interest in a post on the Frankfurt School, its critique of the Enlightenment, the anti-Semitic origins of “cultural Marxism”, and why “postmodern neo-Marxism” is incoherent?

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  2. Kantian Naturalist: What they are saying is completely misleading and distorting, to say the least.

    That seems very normal for UD.

    Would there be any interest in a post on the Frankfurt School, its critique of the Enlightenment, the anti-Semitic origins of “cultural Marxism”, and why “postmodern neo-Marxism” is incoherent?

    Yes, I would be interested in that.

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  3. Thanks for the encouragement! I’ll get to it in a few weeks. Going on one last holiday before the fall term begins.

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  4. Kantian Naturalist,

    “the good folks at Uncommon Descent”

    ROTFL! Facetiously said about the IDM’s worst cesspool that very few people respect. Now you sound like Swamidass’ pattern of flattering people, as he did here at TSZ.

    Dembski has basically disowned it. There isn’t a valuable voice outside of the IDM who posts there (unless smth has changed in the past 5 years ago). Why turn back to UD, instead of forward to PS, KN? Is there something that frightens you (reality maybe?) that keeps your attention focused on UD?

    “Usually we don’t talk much politics here. Would there be any interest in a post on the Frankfurt School, its critique of the Enlightenment, the anti-Semitic origins of “cultural Marxism”, and why “postmodern neo-Marxism” is incoherent?”

    Do you mean as an exercise in comic relief? Sure, why not? Don’t worry, KN, I won’t sick Jordan Peterson on your ideologically mashed and distorted views of “reality”, from your willing position as a mind-bloated, ancestor heart-shrunk, scientism-clumsy philosophist too much in that offering. You’ll have brought it upon yourself introducing your “we don’t talk much politics here … but let me tell ya a political story…” ideological foray here.

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  5. Kantian Naturalist: Question for y’all: the good folks at Uncommon Descent are spending a lot of time these days talking about cultural Marxism and the Frankfurt School. What they are saying is completely misleading and distorting, to say the least. Usually we don’t talk much politics here. Would there be any interest in a post on the Frankfurt School, its critique of the Enlightenment, the anti-Semitic origins of “cultural Marxism”, and why “postmodern neo-Marxism” is incoherent?

    Yes, I’d love to see it. I guffawed at One-Trick Ponyton’s declaration that critical theory reduces to materialism.

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  6. Alan Fox: Whilst folks recommend John Hopkins, I find Worldometer easier to use. I hope the figures are reasonably accurate. With the country comparison chart, you can easily get a ranking on any parameter shown. US is shown today as 11th in deaths per head of population, just behind France. But, looking at the trends, I doubt US is going to remain at 11th for long. Of course these tables are only as good as the data they are based on.

    The Guardian on John Hopkins.

    Apologies for quoting myself but, glancing at Worldometer this morning, I see USA has overtaken France and moved to number 10 in the league table of deaths per million of population.

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  7. Having read about, thought about, and talked with friends, allies, and opponents about Marxism in my younger years, I was surprised to hear that people today who definitely aren’t Marxists are nevertheless to be called `”cultural Marxists”. Maybe something to do with Harpo and Groucho?

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  8. I think some day when we aren’t hysterical, we will look back and try to make sense of various countries’ strategies and results with covid.

    What I see is a generally downward trend in case mortality. I haven’t been able to figure out whether this is an artifact of data collection.

    For example, if you only test sick people, your case rate is lower, and your mortality rate is higher. And some entities are reporting antibody positives as new cases.

    Anyway, French case mortality rate is similar to that of the US. Germany is lower, but there are American states that match Germany. I think it’s most likely that patient demographics determine case outcome. And most likely that some aspect of population density determines rate of spread.

    What I don’t see is evidence that anyone has stumbled on a miracle cure, or a perfect strategy for eliminating spread.

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  9. petrushka,

    Why in the world would anyone think that death rate is the best way to determine how well a country is handling the virus? That the US has better hospital facilities than Kazakhstan shouldn’t really be all that surprising. What one has to look at is how well the virus was contained? How well was it slowed? How long was the duration of escalating infections? How good was testing? How good was monitoring? How good was the federal response at unifying the country’s efforts to combat the virus.

    By virtually EVERY measure, one country stands head and shoulders above the rest as a complete clusterfuck of mis-management. History is not going to make the US response look better.

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  10. petrushka:
    I think some day when we aren’t hysterical, we will look back and try to make sense of various countries’ strategies and results with covid.

    The difference is right now is we discuss the strategies in an effort to effect the present rather than evaluate the unchangeable past.

    What I see is a generally downward trend in case mortality.

    After a doubling of the rate of mortality coinciding with a strategic attempt to reopen, was reversed. One might dispassionately conclude the strategy of pretending was less than effective, if a reduction of loss of human life due to Covid was the goal.
    Best we not judge lest we be accused of hysteria.

    I haven’t been able to figure out whether this is an artifact of data collection.For example, if you only test sick people, your case rate is lower, and your mortality rate is higher.

    It is good to be aware of inherent statistical limitations.

    For instance ,not everyone can be like the President, blessed with an unlimited amount of tests with fast results , he can test 100% of the population that comes in contact with him.

    For the general population, tests are a finite diagnostic tool ,in order to use the limited amount of resources wisely you primarily test people who display certain symptoms. The statistically ramifications are secondary. The goal is to reduce actual individual mortality.

    To bring it back to your original point, when the future looks back, availability of testing surely will be one of the criteria by which the future will judge competence .

    And some entities are reporting antibody positives as new cases.

    And they have been scolded for that. Antibodies show historical evidence of past infection. Since antibody tests can be ethically administered randomly, comparing those to mortality might give you Idea of the rate of mortality among the infected. At least for a point in time.

    Anyway, French case mortality rate is similar tothat of the US. Germany is lower, but there are American states that match Germany. I think it’s most likely that patient demographics determine case outcome. And most likely that some aspect of population density determines rate of spread.

    And the increasing knowledge of medical interventions and the capacity of medical resources would be important. And the attitude of the population.

    What I don’t see is evidence that anyone has stumbled on a miracle cure, or a perfect strategy for eliminating spread.

    There have been strategies that have been more sucessful in controlling the spread, Sweden has been an interesting experiment.

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  11. Joe Felsenstein:
    Having read about, thought about, and talked with friends, allies, and opponents about Marxism in my younger years, I was surprised to hear that people today who definitely aren’t Marxists are nevertheless to be called `”cultural Marxists”.Maybe something to do with Harpo and Groucho?

    Of course, per Groucho “ I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members. “

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  12. phoodoo: By virtually EVERY measure, one country stands head and shoulders above the rest as a complete clusterfuck of mis-management.

    China? Singapore?

    The US government just isn’t fascist enough for your tastes phoodoo?

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  13. Mung,

    Is it fascist enough for you? You want them to have more unmarked vehicles kidnapping peaceful protesters, and shooting journalists eyes out?

    You want to compare the China response to the US response? Just to highlight the American shitstorm? Surely you are joking?

    Do you get to see the news where you live?

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  14. phoodoo: Do you get to see the news where you live?

    I try to avoid it. But given where I live I can see for myself what is happening in places like Portland and Seattle.

    phoodoo: Is it fascist enough for you?

    Far too much so. But I live in a democrat run city in a democrat run state so I shudder to think of Hilary or Biden as president.

    Maybe if you actually lived in the U.S. I’d think more of your opinion.

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  15. Mung: The US government just isn’t fascist enough for your tastes phoodoo?

    Only because they are too busy grifting.

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  16. phoodoo: Is it fascist enough for you? You want them to have more unmarked vehicles kidnapping peaceful protesters, and shooting journalists eyes out?

    Not this fascist, Uyghurs.

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  17. newton: What I see is a generally downward trend in case mortality.

    After a doubling of the rate of mortality coinciding with a strategic attempt to reopen, was reversed. One might dispassionately conclude the strategy of pretending was less than effective, if a reduction of loss of human life due to Covid was the goal.

    Case mortality is the percentage of people, verified cases, that die. That’s a different concept from overall mortality.

    I am curious how one distinguishes between rising cases due to opening, and rising cases due to the protests. Cases didn’t really start rising until the second week in June. There’s a problem here with post hoc. I wonder how you solved it.

    In Connecticut, cases fell steadily after opening. We can eat in restaurants, inside or outside. We do not wear masks outside, except when interacting with another person.

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  18. Mung: I try to avoid it. But given where I live I can see for myself what is happening in places like Portland and Seattle.

    Far too much so. But I live in a democrat run city in a democrat run state so I shudder to think of Hilary or Biden as president.

    Maybe if you actually lived in the U.S. I’d think more of your opinion.

    What do you mean, are you complaining about your city? I thought the republican mantra was, ‘Hey, if you don’t like it leave!

    Or de they only mean that when it’s complaints about right wing cities? You know, the places you don’t go to live in?

    Heck your own burnt orange idiot doesn’t even take that advice. He ran on a platform of ‘ the country sucks, let’s change it. ‘ But why doesn’t he go live in another country that doesn’t suck? Isn’t that what he tells others to do who try to fix it?

    Are all republicans hypocrites or just some of you? ‘

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  19. petrushka: What I don’t see is evidence that anyone has stumbled on a miracle cure, or a perfect strategy for eliminating spread.

    Sensible precautions till a vaccine is available.

    My test results showed no presence of virus and no antibodies.

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  20. Alan Fox,

    To westerners its an international scandal if Asian countries governments enact strict public controls, but if western countries like the US tear gas, shoot them, and even hijack their citizens in unmarked cars, well, its just a minor inconvenience, right?

    Where is the international outrage over this?

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  21. phoodoo: To westerners its an international scandal if Asian countries governments enact strict public controls,

    Depends on the definition of “strict public controls”. Hundreds of thousand people in re-education camps, much more than a scandal.

    but if western countries like the US tear gas, shoot them, and even hijack their citizens in unmarked cars, well, its just a minor inconvenience, right?

    Many westerners are doing everything they can to remove the cancer in our government. We realize that Trump has shown the fragility of Democracy in the US, the next version of Trump might be more competent. We still believe that we can exercise the choice to remove the danger he represents.

    Fascism is bad no matter who does it.

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  22. newton: Depends on the definition of “strict public controls”.

    Shooting journalists eyes out? Kidnapping people? Bludgeoning? Does that count?

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  23. phoodoo: Shooting journalists eyes out?Kidnapping people?Bludgeoning?Does that count?

    Of course. Just said so. What is the state of journalists in China?

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  24. newton,

    So aren’t you shocked at the lack of international outrage at the fascist US crackdown on innocent citizens? Where are the calls for international boycotts?

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  25. phoodoo: Heck your own burnt orange idiot

    Not burnt orange

    doesn’t even take that advice. He ran on a platform of ‘ the country sucks, let’s change it. ‘ But why doesn’t he go live in another country that doesn’t suck? Isn’t that what he tells others to do who try to fix it?

    You miss the point, it is the trying to fix it that is problem, it was great and giving some billionaires more money will make it great again. And a wall.

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  26. newton: You miss the point, it is the trying to fix it that is problem

    I didn’t miss any point. His slogan implies the US isn’t great. So why not leave if he doesn’t like it. Isn’t that what republicans are always saying?

    What would be the republican response if the democrats platform was America sucks, let’s change it. ?

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  27. phoodoo:
    newton,

    So aren’t you shocked at the lack of international outrage at the fascist US crackdown on innocent citizens?Where are the calls for international boycotts?

    Nope, we got this. The thing is, we are not arguing that Trump’s transgressions are excused because China is abusing part of its people. That is Trump’s argument and it seems to be yours as well. Both things can be bad.

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  28. phoodoo: I didn’t miss any point

    Okay, if you prefer, avoiding the point.What makes America not great is the existence of the “other“, the over-educated, the under-educated, those with the wrong religion, those with funny sounding names. Foreign born Presidents. Hippies. The lists are readily available on Facebook. It is a longing for the the never existed past.

    So they have to leave, not the True Americans.

    His slogan implies the US isn’t great.

    America is always the greatest, it is certain citizens which who need to see the light or get out who ruin the experience of being the greatest.

    So why not leave if he doesn’t like it.Isn’t that what republicans are always saying?

    They have transcended the notion of both hypocrisy and irony. It is their right to tell the unworthy to leave.

    What would be the republican response if the democrats platform was America sucks, let’s change it.?

    They would say Republican are not saying America sucks, they are saying certain Americans suck. And some foreigners suck. Totally different.

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  29. petrushka:
    Looks like we’ll get a test of protests in Germany. In a week or two.

    As long as they don’t test for it , it won’t exist.

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  30. petrushka: Case mortality is the percentage of people, verified cases, that die. That’s a different concept from overall mortality.

    I expect the population of dead folks overlaps.

    I am curious how one distinguishes between rising cases due to opening, and rising cases due to the protests.

    Is it an either/or? I expect people who go the bars protest and protestors might go to bars. Might be able to roughly gauge the effect if you have a state with protests with no bars open. Vs bars and no protests or at least open bars and protests. Or if places closed the bars while protests continued saw a drop in cases. Or ask the infected about their activities if you had a robust tracing capacity set up before you opened the economy

    Or figured since it is hard to tell, the one regulated by State Laws might be a first choice.

    Which again brings us back the failure of testing and contact tracing.

    Cases didn’t really start rising until the second week in June. There’s a problem here with post hoc. I wonder how you solved it.

    Texas opened the bars the third week of May, on 28th the count went from 600 to 1,800. The protests began in Texas around the 29th. Seems to me that initial uptick was about reopening. Protests petered out about the 9th of June in Texas. Pretty big spike the 16th. Bars still open ,possible protest effect. Protest done bars open cases continue to rise, virus is more widespread. Another big spike the 25th of June, protests over two week done, bars open. Closed bars on 26 June , huge jump July1, protest over three weeks past, initial protests over a month past. Steadily rising with huge spike the 17th, probably result of 4th of July.

    Now testing results have lots of quirks, lot of noise, but in Texas the effect of bars opening seemed more cause more cases than protests

    In Connecticut, cases fell steadily after opening. We can eat in restaurants, inside or outside. We do not wear masks outside, except when interacting with another person.

    Best I can tell the bars stayed closed beyond July 4th. Yes , people who act responsibly can do things safely . People who do not get and spread the virus.

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  31. newton: Nope, we got this. The thing is, we are not arguing that Trump’s transgressions are excused because China is abusing part of its people. That is Trump’s argument and it seems to be yours as well. Both things can be bad.

    You aren’t reading. Why aren’t other countries calling for international boycotts against all America enterprises until they clean up their human rights record? Why aren’t international courts calling for sanctions? Why isn’t the UN intervening? Why aren’t there travel warnings for citizens from other countries to not travel to America?

    Can you point to some of the calls for international actions against the US?

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  32. phoodoo,

    I’m internationally outraged and utterly impotent. I recall a Guardian campaign some years ago (2016 perhaps) suggesting readers should email US acquaintances warning of the consequences of electing Trump. Backfired spectacularly.

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  33. phoodoo: Why aren’t there travel warnings for citizens from other countries to not travel to America?

    Not needed?

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  34. phoodoo: You aren’t reading. Why aren’t other countries calling for international boycotts against all America enterprises until they clean up their human rights record?

    You asked if I was shocked, isn’t that what you wrote?

    Why countries do what they do is a different question. Generally ,it is a matter of what is in the best interest of the country. What Trump is doing in Portland is bad but not equivalent to Tiananmen Square or the idiot in the Philippines or the Saudis chopping up a journalist or the Turkey and the Kurds. Or the Soviets dumping people out windows. Every country has blood on its hands. Some exceed the accepted norms. And if it is in the economic benefit of another country it is overlooked.

    Why aren’t international courts calling for sanctions? Why isn’t the UN intervening? Why aren’t there travel warnings for citizens from other countries to not travel to America?

    Why is China not pushing the issue, maybe from those Islands it created?

    Can you point to some of the calls for international actions against the US?

    Not sure, it sure worked in Syria, cleaned that right up. The problem remains, that the US acts badly doesn’t justify China’s bad behavior. You use the same argument about moderation.

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  35. Alan Fox: Not needed?

    Pandemic solved that issue, everyone has travel bans on everyone else. Canada id cracking does on Americans abusing the ability to travel thru Canada to go to Alaska. .

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  36. phoodoo: Are all republicans hypocrites or just some of you? ‘

    What a silly person you are. I’m not a republican. I haven’t voted republican since Reagan.

    Maybe if you actually knew what you were talking about I’d think more of your opinion.

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  37. newton: What is the state of journalists in China?

    They are tolerated. Sometimes.

    But phoodoo doesn’t live in China.Would think of living in China. Just shills for them. And calls me a hypocrite, lol.

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  38. mung

    Mung: But phoodoo doesn’t live in China.

    He has stated that he does live in china. He also has said he is a phoo doo rice farmer with a chinese girlfriend so if we take him at his word he, evidently, does live in China as per his claims. Do you know differently?

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  39. I know I’m being perceived as a Trump supporter, so I will go on record as never having voted for a Republican at any level in my life.

    I’m not inclined to vote for democrats either, although I have. I would prefer to have an affirmative none of the above choice. I think if that choice were on ballots, voting rates would go up, and politicians would be shocked.

    I have two pet issues that I care about, neither of which have surfaced in popular discussion. Since I spent a good number of years in protective services, I would like to see a large scale debate on child abuse and child trafficking.

    As a Vietnam vet — drafted — I would like to see a world wide debate on war.

    I find it darkly humorous that Trump is reviled for tariffs and strong language, and every previous president conducted wars and covert operations to overthrow foreign leaders. Weird.

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  40. petrushka: I find it darkly humorous that Trump is reviled for tariffs and strong language,

    I find it ridiculously absurd that you think THAT is what he is reviled for.

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  41. petrushka:
    I know I’m being perceived as a Trump supporter, so I will go on record as never having voted for a Republican at any level in my life.

    That is my favorite kind of Trump facilitator.

    I’m not inclined to vote for democrats either, although I have. I would prefer to have an affirmative none of the above choice.

    Wouldn’t have thought Connecticut was a hot bed of anarchists. Live and learn.

    I think if that choice were on ballots, voting rates would go up, and politicians would be shocked.

    Seems like how Trump got elected. That worked out great.

    I have two pet issues that I care about, neither of which have surfaced in popular discussion. Since I spent a good number of years in protective services, I would like to see a large scale debate on child abuse and child trafficking.

    My wife worked in the same field for a while, horrific the things that happen to children, most of it not by strangers. What area would you like to discuss?

    As a Vietnam vet — drafted — I would like to see a world wide debate on war.

    You think wars can be eliminated by a debate?

    I find it darkly humorous that Trump is reviled for tariffs

    I think it is his misunderstanding who really pays the tariffs.

    Strong language

    Only If strong is an euphemism for stupid and false.

    and every previous president conducted wars and covert operations to overthrow foreign leaders. Weird.

    You don’t think Trump is trying to regime change in Iran?

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  42. Abraham Lincoln got us into one of the worst wars in the nations history, and there is a statue of him, and yet people wanted to get rid of Nixon because he eliminated the cabinet position of the Post Office. Weird!

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  43. phoodoo:
    Abraham Lincoln got us into one of the worst wars in the nations history, and there is a statue of him, and yet people wanted to get rid of Nixon because he eliminated the cabinet position of the Post Office.Weird!

    Abraham Lincoln had it easy compared to the hardships of Trump. Only two hundred rounds of golf, oh the humanity!!!

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  44. phoodoo:
    Abraham Lincoln got us into one of the worst wars in the nations history, and there is a statue of him, and yet people wanted to get rid of Nixon because he eliminated the cabinet position of the Post Office.Weird!

    Despite studying American history, I wasn’t aware of either of these claims. My impression was that Lincoln “got us into” that war when it became obvious to the slave states that as the nation added states where slavery wasn’t economical (and would be sending anti-slavery Senators into a delicately balanced Senate, to their detriment) those states precipitated a war. I also learned that not too long after the end of that war, technology like the cotton gin would have rendered slavery uneconomical anyway.

    Being President when someone else starts a wars is a dicey position. One could argue that FDR “got us into” WWII, though without American participation, that war would likely have found us whether we liked it or not.

    As for Nixon, as with any President, a goodly percentage of the nation wanted to get rid of him for any of a large number of pretexts. There has never been a President that many people didn’t want to get rid of. I’ll grant that eliminating the cabinet position of the post office is a stretch. Surely those people could have found better reasons, since Nixon was nearly as corrupt as Trump.

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  45. petrushka: I know I’m being perceived as a Trump supporter, so I will go on record as never having voted for a Republican at any level in my life.

    So you’ve missed out on one of life’s great pleasures. A shame. But you could remedy that this year. 🙂

    By the way, it wasn’t just Republicans that supported Trump. But don’t tell phoodoo.

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