Recycling bad arguments: ENV on the origin of life

During the past few days, Dr. Brian Miller (whose Ph.D. is in physics) has written a series of articles on the origin of life over at Evolution News and Views:

Thermodynamics of the Origin of Life (June 19, 2017)
The Origin of Life, Self-Organization, and Information (June 20, 2017)
Free Energy and the Origin of Life: Natural Engines to the Rescue (June 22, 2017)
Origin of Life and Information — Some Common Myths (June 26, 2017)

Dr. Miller’s aim is to convince his readers that intelligent agency was required to coordinate the steps leading to the origin of life. I think his conclusion may very well be correct, but that doesn’t make his arguments correct. In this post, I plan to subject Dr. Miller’s arguments to scientific scrutiny, in order to determine whether Dr. Miller has made a strong case for Intelligent Design.

While I commend Dr. Miller for his indefatigability, I find it disappointing that his articles recycle several Intelligent Design canards which have been refuted on previous occasions. Dr. Miller also seems to be unaware of recently published online articles which address some of his concerns.

1. Thermodynamics of the Origin of Life

White smokers emitting liquid carbon dioxide at the Champagne vent, Northwest Eifuku volcano, Marianas Trench Marine National Monument. Image courtesy of US NOAA and Wikipedia.

In his first article, Thermodynamics of the Origin of Life, Dr. Miller critiques the popular scientific view that life originated in a “system strongly driven away from equilibrium” (or more technically, a non-equilibrium dissipative system), such as “a pond subjected to intense sunlight or the bottom of the ocean near a hydrothermal vent flooding its surroundings with superheated water and high-energy chemicals.” Dr. Miller argues that this view is fatally flawed, on three counts:

First, no system could be maintained far from equilibrium for more than a limited amount of time. The sun is only out during the day, and superheated water at the bottom of the ocean would eventually migrate away from any hydrothermal vents. Any progress made toward forming a cell would be lost as the system reverted toward equilibrium (lower free energy) and thus away from any state approaching life. Second, the input of raw solar, thermal, or other forms of energy actually increase the entropy of the system, thus moving it in the wrong direction. For instance, the ultraviolet light from the sun or heat from hydrothermal vents would less easily form the complex chemical structures needed for life than break them apart. Finally, in non-equilibrium systems the differences in temperature, concentrations, and other variables act as thermodynamic forces which drive heat transfer, diffusion, and other thermodynamic flows. These flows create microscopic sources of entropy production, again moving the system away from any reduced-entropy state associated with life. In short, the processes occurring in non-equilibrium systems, as in their near-equilibrium counterparts, generally do the opposite of what is actually needed.

Unfortunately for Dr. Miller, none of the foregoing objections is particularly powerful, and most of them are out-of-date. I would also like to note for the record that while the hypothesis that life originated near a hydrothermal vent remains popular among origin-of-life theorists, the notion that this vent was located at “the bottom of the ocean” is now widely rejected. Miller appears to be unaware of this. In fact, as far back as 1988, American chemist Stanley Miller, who became famous when he carried out the Miller-Urey experiment in 1952, had pointed out that long-chain molecules such as RNA and proteins cannot form in water without enzymes to help them. Additionally, leading origin-of-life researchers such as Dr. John Sutherland (of the Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge, UK) and Dr. Jack Szostak (of Harvard Medical School) have discovered that many of the chemical reactions leading to life depend heavily on the presence of ultraviolet light, which only comes from the sun. This rules out a deep-sea vent scenario. That’s old news. Let us now turn to Dr. Miller’s three objections to the idea of life originating in a non-equilibrium dissipative system.

(a) Could a non-equilibrium be kept away from equilibrium?

Miller’s first objection is that non-equilibrium systems can’t be maintained for very long, which would mean that life would never have had time to form in the first place. However, a recent BBC article by Michael Marshall, titled, The secret of how life on Earth began (October 31, 2016), describes a scenario, proposed by origin-of-life researcher John Sutherland, which would evade the force of this objection. Life, Sutherland believes, may have formed very rapidly:

Sutherland has set out to find a “Goldilocks chemistry”: one that is not so messy that it becomes useless, but also not so simple that it is limited in what it can do. Get the mixture just complicated enough and all the components of life might form at once, then come together.

In other words, four billion years ago there was a pond on the Earth. It sat there for years until the mix of chemicals was just right. Then, perhaps within minutes, the first cell came into existence.

“But how, and where?” readers might ask. One plausible site for this event, put forward by origin-of-life expert Armen Mulkidjanian, is the geothermal ponds found near active volcanoes. Because these ponds would be continually receiving heat from volcanoes, they would not return to equilibrium at night, as Dr. Miller supposes.

Another likely location for the formation of life, proposed by John Sutherland, is a meteorite impact zone. This scenario also circumvents Miller’s first objection, as large-scale meteorite impacts would have melted the Earth’s crust, leading to geothermal activity and a continual supply of hot water. The primordial Earth was pounded by meteorites on a regular basis, and large impacts could have created volcanic ponds where life might have formed:

Sutherland imagines small rivers and streams trickling down the slopes of an impact crater, leaching cyanide-based chemicals from the rocks while ultraviolet radiation pours down from above. Each stream would have a slightly different mix of chemicals, so different reactions would happen and a whole host of organic chemicals would be produced.

Finally the streams would flow into a volcanic pond at the bottom of the crater. It could have been in a pond like this that all the pieces came together and the first protocells formed.

(b) Would an input of energy increase entropy?

What about Miller’s second objection, that the input of energy would increase the entropy of the system, thus making it harder for the complex chemical structures needed for life to form, in the first place?

Here, once again, recent work in the field seems to be pointing to a diametrically opposite conclusion. A recent editorial on non-equilibrium dissipative systems (Nature Nanotechnology 10, 909 (2015)) discusses the pioneering work of Dr. Jeremy England, who maintains that the dissipation of heat in these systems can lead to the self-organization of complex systems, including cells:

The theoretical concepts presented are not new — they have been rigorously reported before in specialized physics literature — but, as England explains, recently there has been a number of theoretical advances that, taken together, might lead towards a more complete understanding of non-equilibrium phenomena. More specifically, the meaning of irreversibility in terms of the amount of work being dissipated as heat as a system moves on a particular trajectory between two states. It turns out, this principle is relatively general, and can be used to explain the self-organization of complex systems such as that observed in nanoscale assemblies, or even in cells.

Dr. England, who is by the way an Orthodox Jew, has derived a generalization of the second law of thermodynamics that holds for systems of particles that are strongly driven by an external energy source, and that can dump heat into a surrounding bath. All living things meet these two criteria. Dr. England has shown that over the course of time, the more likely evolutionary outcomes will tend to be the ones that absorbed and dissipated more energy from the environment’s external energy sources, on the way to getting there. In his own words: “This means clumps of atoms surrounded by a bath at some temperature, like the atmosphere or the ocean, should tend over time to arrange themselves to resonate better and better with the sources of mechanical, electromagnetic or chemical work in their environments.”

There are two mechanisms by which a system might dissipate an increasing amount of energy over time. One such mechanism is self-replication; the other, greater structural self-organization. Natalie Wolchover handily summarizes Dr. England’s reasoning in an article in Quanta magazine, titled, A New Physics Theory of Life (January 22, 2014):

Self-replication (or reproduction, in biological terms), the process that drives the evolution of life on Earth, is one such mechanism by which a system might dissipate an increasing amount of energy over time. As England put it, “A great way of dissipating more is to make more copies of yourself.” In a September paper in the Journal of Chemical Physics, he reported the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during the self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells, and showed that it is very close to the actual amounts these systems dissipate when replicating. He also showed that RNA, the nucleic acid that many scientists believe served as the precursor to DNA-based life, is a particularly cheap building material. Once RNA arose, he argues, its “Darwinian takeover” was perhaps not surprising…

Besides self-replication, greater structural organization is another means by which strongly driven systems ramp up their ability to dissipate energy. A plant, for example, is much better at capturing and routing solar energy through itself than an unstructured heap of carbon atoms. Thus, England argues that under certain conditions, matter will spontaneously self-organize. This tendency could account for the internal order of living things and of many inanimate structures as well. “Snowflakes, sand dunes and turbulent vortices all have in common that they are strikingly patterned structures that emerge in many-particle systems driven by some dissipative process,” he said.

Dr. Jeremy England is an MIT physicist. Dr. Miller is also a physicist. I find it puzzling (and more than a little amusing) that Dr. Miller believes that increasing the entropy of a non-equilibrium dissipative system will inhibit the formation of complex chemical structures required for life to exist, whereas Dr. England believes the exact opposite!

(c) Would local variations within non-equilibrium dissipative systems prevent life from forming?

What of Dr. Miller’s third objection, that differences in temperature, concentrations, and other variables arising within a non-equilibrium dissipative system will generate entropy on a microscopic scale, creating disturbances which move the system away from a reduced-entropy state, which is required for life to exist? Dr. David Ruelle, author of a recent Arxiv paper titled, The Origin of Life seen from the point of view of non-equilibrium statistical mechanics (January 29, 2017), appears to hold a contrary view. In his paper, Dr. Ruelle refrains from proposing a specific scenario for the origin of life; rather, his aim, as he puts it, is to describe “a few plausible steps leading to more and more complex states of pre-metabolic systems so that something like life may naturally arise.” Building on the work of Dr. Jeremy England and other authors in the field, Dr. Ruelle contends that “organized metabolism and replication of information” can spontaneously arise from “a liquid bath (water containing various solutes) interacting with some pre-metabolic systems,” where the pre-metabolic systems are defined as “chemical associations which may be carried by particles floating in the liquid, or contained in cracks of a solid boundary of the liquid.” At the end of his paper, Dr. Ruelle discusses what he calls pre-biological systems, emphasizing their ability to remain stable in the face of minor fluctuations, and describing how their complexity can increase over time:

In brief, a pre-biological state is generally indecomposable. This means in particular that the fluctuations in its composition are not large. The prebiological state is also stable under small perturbations, except when those lead to a new metabolic pathway, changing the nature of the state.

We see thus a pre-biological system as a set of components undergoing an organized set of chemical reactions using a limited amount of nutrients in the surrounding fluid. The complexity of the pre-biological system increases as the amount of available nutrients decreases. The system can sustain a limited amount of disturbance. An excessive level of disturbance destroys the organized set of reactions on which the system is based: it dies.

Evidently Dr. Ruelle believes that non-equilibrium dissipative systems are resilient to minor fluctuations, and even capable of undergoing an increase in complexity, whereas Dr. Miller maintains that these fluctuations would prevent the formation of life.

If Dr. Miller believes that Dr. Ruelle is wrong, perhaps he would care to explain why.

2. The Origin of Life, Self-Organization, and Information

The three main structures phospholipids form spontaneously in solution: the liposome (a closed bilayer), the micelle and the bilayer. Image courtesy of Lady of Hats and Wikipedia.

I turn now to Dr. Miller’s second article, The Origin of Life, Self-Organization, and Information. In this article, Dr. Miller argues that there are profound differences between self-organizational order and the cellular order found in living organisms. Non-equilibrium dissipative systems might be able to generate the former kind of order, but not the latter.

The main reason for the differences between self-organizational and cellular order is that the driving tendencies in non-equilibrium systems move in the opposite direction to what is needed for both the origin and maintenance of life. First, all realistic experiments on the genesis of life’s building blocks produce most of the needed molecules in very small concentrations, if at all. And, they are mixed together with contaminants, which would hinder the next stages of cell formation. Nature would have needed to spontaneously concentrate and purify life’s precursors…

Concentration of some of life’s precursors could have taken place in an evaporating pool, but the contamination problem would then become much worse since precursors would be greatly outnumbered by contaminants. Moreover, the next stages of forming a cell would require the concentrated chemicals to dissolve back into some larger body of water, since different precursors would have had to form in different locations with starkly different initial conditions…

In addition, many of life’s building blocks come in both right and left-handed versions, which are mirror opposites. Both forms are produced in all realistic experiments in equal proportions, but life can only use one of them: in today’s life, left-handed amino acids and right-handed sugars. The origin of life would have required one form to become increasingly dominant, but nature would drive a mixture of the two forms toward equal percentages, the opposite direction.

(a) Why origin-of-life theorists are no longer obsessed with purity

Dr. Miller’s contention that contaminants would hinder the formation of living organisms has been abandoned by modern origin-of-life researchers, as BBC journalist Michael Marshall reports in his 2016 article, The secret of how life on Earth began. After describing how researcher John Sutherland was able to successfully assemble a nucleotide using a messy solution that contained a contaminant (phosphate) at the outset, leading Sutherland to hypothesize that for life to originate, there has to be “an optimum level of mess” (neither too much nor too little), Marshall goes on to discuss the pioneering experiments of another origin-of-life researcher, Jack Szostak, whose work has led him to espouse the same conclusion as Sutherland:

Szostak now suspects that most attempts to make the molecules of life, and to assemble them into living cells, have failed for the same reason: the experiments were too clean.

The scientists used the handful of chemicals they were interested in, and left out all the other ones that were probably present on the early Earth. But Sutherland’s work shows that, by adding a few more chemicals to the mix, more complex phenomena can be created.

Szostak experienced this for himself in 2005, when he was trying to get his protocells to host an RNA enzyme. The enzyme needed magnesium, which destroyed the protocells’ membranes.

The solution was a surprising one. Instead of making the vesicles out of one pure fatty acid, they made them from a mixture of two. These new, impure vesicles could cope with the magnesium – and that meant they could play host to working RNA enzymes.

What’s more, Szostak says the first genes might also have embraced messiness.

Modern organisms use pure DNA to carry their genes, but pure DNA probably did not exist at first. There would have been a mixture of RNA nucleotides and DNA nucleotides.

In 2012 Szostak showed that such a mixture could assemble into “mosaic” molecules that looked and behaved pretty much like pure RNA. These jumbled RNA/DNA chains could even fold up neatly.

This suggested that it did not matter if the first organisms could not make pure RNA, or pure DNA…

(b) Getting it together: how the first cell may have formed

Dr. Miller also argues that even if the components of life were able to form in separate little pools, the problem of how they came to be integrated into a living cell would still remain. In recent years, Dr. John Sutherland has done some serious work on this problem. Sutherland describes his own preferred origin-of-life scenario in considerable detail in a paper titled, The Origin of Life — Out of the Blue (Angewandte Chemie, International Edition, 2016, 55, 104 – 121.

Several years ago, we realised that … polarisation of the field was severely hindering progress, and we planned a more holistic approach. We set out to use experimental chemistry to address two questions, the previously assumed answers to which had led to the polarisation of the field: “Are completely different chemistries needed to make the various subsystems?” [and] “Would these chemistries be compatible with each other?”

With twelve amino acids, two ribonucleotides and the hydrophilic moiety of lipids synthesised by common chemistry, we feel that we have gone a good way to answering the first of the questions we posed at the outset. “Are completely different chemistries needed to make the various subsystems?” — we would argue no! We need to find ways of making the purine ribonucleotides, but hydrogen cyanide 1 is already strongly implicated as a starting material. We also need to find ways of making the hydrophobic chains of lipids, and maybe a few other amino acids, but there is hope in reductive homologation chemistry or what we have called “cyanosulfidic protometabolism.” …

The answer to the second question — “Would these chemistries be compatible with each other?” — is a bit more vague (thus far). The chemistries associated with the different subsystems are variations on a theme, but to operate most efficiently some sort of separation would seem to be needed. Because a late stage of our scenario has small streams or rivulets flowing over ground sequentially leaching salts and other compounds as they are encountered (Figure 17), it provides a very simple way in which variants of the chemistry could play out separately before all the products became mixed.

Separate streams might encounter salts and other compounds in different orders and be exposed to solar radiation differently. Furthermore streams might dry out and the residues become heated through geothermal activity before fresh inflow of water. If streams with different flow chemistry histories then merged, convergent synthesis might occur at the confluence and downstream thereof, or products might simply mix. It would be most plausible if only a few streams were necessary for the various strands of the chemistry to operate efficiently before merger. Our current working model divides the reaction network up such that the following groups of building blocks would be made separately: ribonucleotides; alanine, threonine, serine and glycine; glycerol phosphates, valine and leucine; aspartic acid, asparagine, glutamic acid and glutamine; and arginine and proline. Because the homologation of all intermediates uses hydrogen cyanide (1), products of reductive homologation of (1) — especially glycine — could be omnipresent.

Since then, Sutherland has written another paper, titled, Opinion: Studies on the origin of life — the end of the beginning (Nature Reviews Chemistry 1, article number: 0012 (2017), doi:10.1038/s41570-016-0012), in which he further develops his scenario.

(c) How did life come to be left-handed?

Two enantiomers [mirror images] of a generic amino acid which is chiral [left- or right-handed]. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

The left-handedness of amino acids in living things, coupled with the fact that that organisms contain only right-handed nucleotides, has puzzled origin-of-life theorists since the time of Pasteur. Does this rule put a natural origin for living things, as Dr. Miller thinks? It is interesting to note that Pasteur himself was wary of drawing this conclusion, according to a biography written by his grandson, and he even wrote: “I do not judge it impossible.” (René Dubos, Louis Pasteur: Free Lance of Science, Da Capo Press, Inc., 1950. p 396.)

Pasteur’s caution turns out to have been justified. According to a 2015 report by Claudia Lutz in Phys.org titled, Straight up, with a twist: New model derives homochirality from basic life requirements, scientists at the University of Illinois have recently come up with a simple model which explains the chirality found in living organisms in terms of just two basic properties: self-replication and disequilibrium.

The Illinois team wanted to develop a … model, … based on only the most basic properties of life: self-replication and disequilibrium. They showed that with only these minimal requirements, homochirality appears when self-replication is efficient enough.

The model … takes into account the chance events involving individual molecules — which chiral self-replicator happens to find its next substrate first. The detailed statistics built into the model reveal that if self-replication is occurring efficiently enough, this incidental advantage can grow into dominance of one chirality over the other.

The work leads to a key conclusion: since homochirality depends only on the basic principles of life, it is expected to appear wherever life emerges, regardless of the surrounding conditions.

More recent work has provided a detailed picture of how life’s amino acids became left-handed. In 2016, Rowena Ball and John Brindley proposed that since hydrogen peroxide is the smallest, simplest molecule to exist as a pair of non-superimposable mirror images, or enantiomers, its interactions with ribonucelic acids may have led to amplification of D-ribonucleic acids and extinction of L-ribonucleic acids. Hydrogen peroxide was produced on the ancient Earth, more than 3.8 billion years ago, around the time that life emerged. Ball explains how this favored the emergence of right-handed nucleotide chains, in a recent article in Phys.org:

It is thought that a small excess of L-amino acids was “rained” onto the ancient Earth by meteorite bombardment, and scientists have found that a small excess of L-amino acids can catalyse formation of small excesses of D-nucleotide precursors. This, we proposed, led to a marginal excess of D-polynucleotides over L-polynucleotides, and a bias to D-chains of longer mean length than L-chains in the RNA world.

In the primordial soup, local excesses of one or other hydrogen peroxide enantiomer would have occurred. Specific interactions with polynucleotides destabilise the shorter L-chains more than the longer, more robust, D-chains. With a greater fraction of L-chains over D-chains destabilised, hydrogen peroxide can then “go in for the kill”, with one enantiomer (let us say M) preferentially oxidising L-chains.

Overall, this process works in favour of increasing the fraction and average length of D-chains at the expense of L-species.

An outdated argument relating to proteins

In his article, Dr. Miller puts forward an argument for proteins having been intelligently designed, which unfortunately rests on faulty premises:

Proteins eventually break down, and they cannot self-replicate. Additional machinery was also needed to constantly produce new protein replacements. Also, the proteins’ sequence information had to have been stored in DNA using some genetic code, where each amino acid was represented by a series of three nucleotides know as a codon in the same way English letters are represented in Morse Code by dots and dashes. However, no identifiable physical connection exists between individual amino acids and their respective codons. In particular, no amino acid (e.g., valine) is much more strongly attracted to any particular codon (e.g., GTT) than to any other. Without such a physical connection, no purely materialistic process could plausibly explain how amino acid sequences were encoded into DNA. Therefore, the same information in proteins and in DNA must have been encoded separately.

The problem with this argument is that scientists have known for decades that its key premise is false. Dennis Venema (Professor of Biology at Trinity Western University in Langley, British Columbia) explains why, in a Biologos article titled, Biological Information and Intelligent Design: Abiogenesis and the origins of the genetic code (August 25, 2016):

Several amino acids do in fact directly bind to their codon (or in some cases, their anticodon), and the evidence for this has been known since the late 1980s in some cases. Our current understanding is that this applies only to a subset of the 20 amino acids found in present-day proteins.

In Venema’s view, this finding lends support to a particular hypothesis about the origin of the genetic code, known as the direct templating hypothesis, which proposes that “the tRNA system is a later addition to a system that originally used direct chemical interactions between amino acids and codons.” Venema continues: “In this model, then, the original code used a subset of amino acids in the current code, and assembled proteins directly on mRNA molecules without tRNAs present. Later, tRNAs would be added to the system, allowing for other amino acids—amino acids that cannot directly bind mRNA — to be added to the code.” The model also makes a specific prediction: if it is correct, then “amino acids would directly bind to their codons on mRNA, and then be joined together by a ribozyme (the ancestor of the present-day ribosome).”

Venema concludes:

The fact that several amino acids do in fact bind their codons or anticodons is strong evidence that at least part of the code was formed through chemical interactions — and, contra [ID advocate Stephen] Meyer, is not an arbitrary code. The code we have — or at least for those amino acids for which direct binding was possible — was indeed a chemically favored code. And if it was chemically favored, then it is quite likely that it had a chemical origin, even if we do not yet understand all the details of how it came to be.

I will let readers draw their own conclusions as to who has the better of the argument here: Venema or Miller.

3. Free Energy and the Origin of Life: Natural Engines to the Rescue

Photograph of American scientist Josiah Willard Gibbs (1839-1903), discoverer of Gibbs free energy, taken about 1895. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

In his third article, Free Energy and the Origin of Life: Natural Engines to the Rescue, Dr. Miller argues that the emergence of life would have required chemicals to move from a state of high entropy and low free energy to one of low entropy and high free energy. (Gibbs free energy can be defined as “a thermodynamic potential that can be used to calculate the maximum of reversible work that may be performed by a thermodynamic system at a constant temperature and pressure.”) However, spontaneous natural processes always tend towards lower free energy. An external source of energy doesn’t help matters, either, as it increases entropy. Miller concludes that life’s formation was intelligently directed:

Now, I will address attempts to overcome the free-energy barriers through the use of natural engines. To summarize, a fundamental hurdle facing all origin-of-life theories is the fact that the first cell must have had a free energy far greater than its chemical precursors. And spontaneous processes always move from higher free energy to lower free energy. More specifically, the origin of life required basic chemicals to coalesce into a state of both lower entropy and higher energy, and no such transitions ever occur without outside help in any situation, even at the microscopic level.

Attempted solutions involving external energy sources fail since the input of raw energy actually increases the entropy of the system, moving it in the wrong direction. This challenge also applies to all appeals to self-replicating molecules, auto-catalytic chemical systems, and self-organization. Since all of these processes proceed spontaneously, they all move from higher to lower free energy, much like rocks rolling down a mountain. However, life resides at the top of the mountain. The only possible solutions must assume the existence of machinery that processes energy and directs it toward performing the required work to properly organize and maintain the first cell.

But as we saw above, Dr. Jeremy England maintains that increasing the entropy of a non-equilibrium dissipative system can promote the formation of complex chemical structures required for life to exist. Miller’s claim that external energy sources invariably increase the entropy of the system is correct if we consider the system as a whole, including the bath into which non-equilibrium dissipative systems can dump their heat. Internally, however, self-organization can reduce entropy- a fact which undermines Miller’s attempt to demonstrate the impossibility of abiogenesis.

4. Origin of Life and Information — Some Common Myths

A game of English-language Scrabble in progress. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

In his final installment, Origin of Life and Information — Some Common Myths, Dr. Miller takes aim at the view that a reduction in entropy is sufficient to account for the origin of biological information. Miller puts forward three arguments which he believes demonstrate the absurdity of this idea.

(a) Could a reduction in entropy generate functional information?

A bowl of alphabet soup nearly full, and nearly empty, spelling “THE END” in the latter case. Image courtesy of strawberryblues and Wikipedia.

Let’s look at Miller’s first argument, that a reduction in entropy could never account for the highly specific sequencing of amino acids in proteins, or nucleotides in DNA:

A common attempt to overcome the need for information in the first cell is to equate information to a reduction in entropy, often referred to as the production of “negative entropy” or N-entropy. … However, entropy is not equivalent to the information in cells, since the latter represents functional information. To illustrate the difference, imagine entering the kitchen and seeing a bowl of alphabet soup with several letters arranged in the middle as follows:

REST TODAY AND DRINK PLENTY OF FLUIDS

I HOPE YOU FEEL BETTER SOON

You would immediately realize that some intelligence, probably your mother, arranged the letters for a purpose. Their sequence could not possibly be explained by the physics of boiling water or the chemistry of the pasta.

… You would immediately recognize that a reduction in thermal entropy has no physical connection to the specific ordering of letters in a meaningful message. The same principle holds true in relation to the origin of life for the required sequencing of amino acids in proteins or nucleotides in DNA.

This, I have to say, is a fallacious argument, which I refuted in my online review of Dr. Douglas Axe’s recently published book, Undeniable. Dr. Miller, like Dr. Axe, is confusing functional information (which is found in living things) with the semantic information found in a message written with the letters of the alphabet, such as “REST TODAY AND DRINK PLENTY OF FLUIDS.” In fact, functional information is much easier to generate than semantic information, because it doesn’t have to form words, conform to the rules of syntax, or make sense at the semantic level:

The concepts of meaning and function are quite different, for reasons I shall now explain.

In order for an accidentally generated string of letters to convey a meaningful message, it needs to satisfy three very stringent conditions, each more difficult than the last: first, the letters need to be arranged into meaningful words; second, the sequence of words has to conform to the rules of syntax; and finally, the sequence of words has to make sense at the semantic level: in other words, it needs to express a meaningful proposition. For a string of letters generated at random to meet all of these conditions would indeed be fantastically improbable. But here’s the thing: living things don’t need to satisfy any of these conditions... The sequence of amino acids in a protein needs to do just one thing: it needs to fold up into a shape that can perform a biologically useful task. And that’s it. Generating something useful by chance – especially something with enough useful functions to be called alive – is a pretty tall order, but because living things lack the extra dimensions of richness found in messages that carry a semantic meaning, they’re going to be a lot easier to generate by chance than (say) instruction manuals or cook books… In practical terms, that means that given enough time, life just might arise.

Let me be clear: I am not trying to argue that a reduction in entropy is sufficient to account for the origin of biological information. That strikes me as highly unlikely. What I am arguing, however, is that appeals to messages written in text are utterly irrelevant to the question of how biological information arose. I might also add that most origin-of-life theorists don’t believe that the first living things contained highly specific sequences of “amino acids in proteins or nucleotides in DNA,” as Miller apparently thinks, because they probably lacked both proteins and DNA, if the RNA World hypothesis (discussed below) is correct. Miller is attacking a straw man.

(b) Can fixed rules account for the amino acid sequencing in proteins?

Dr. Miller’s second argument is that fixed rules, such as those governing non-linear dynamics processes, would be unable to generate the arbitrary sequences of amino acids found in proteins. These sequences perform useful biological functions, but are statistically random:

A related error is the claim that biological information could have come about by some complex systems or non-linear dynamics processes. The problem is that all such processes are driven by physical laws or fixed rules. And, any medium capable of containing information (e.g., Scrabble tiles lined up on a board) cannot constrain in any way the arrangement of the associated symbols/letters. For instance, to type a message on a computer, one must be free to enter any letters in any order. If every time one typed an “a” the computer automatically generated a “b,” the computer could no longer contain the information required to create meaningful sentences. In the same way, amino acid sequences in the first cell could only form functional proteins if they were free to take on any order…

…To reiterate, no natural process could have directed the amino acid sequencing in the first cell without destroying the chains’ capacity to contain the required information for proper protein folding. Therefore, the sequences could never be explained by any natural process but only by the intended goal of forming the needed proteins for the cell’s operations (i.e., teleologically).

Dr. Miller has a valid point here: it is extremely unlikely that fixed rules, by themselves, can explain the origin of biological information. Unfortunately, he spoils his case by likening the information in a protein to a string of text. As we have seen, the metaphor is a flawed one, on three counts. Proteins contain functional information, not semantic information.

Dr. Miller also makes an illicit inference from the statement that “no natural process could have directed the amino acid sequencing in the first cell” to the conclusion that “the sequences could never be explained by any natural process,” but only by a teleological process of Intelligent Design. This inference is unwarranted on two counts. First, it assumes that the only kind of natural explanation for the amino acid sequences in proteins would have to be some set of fixed rules (or laws) directing their sequence, which overlooks the possibility that functional sequences may have arisen by chance. (At this point, Intelligent Design advocates will be sure to cite Dr. Douglas Axe’s estimate that only 1 in 10^77 sequences of 150 amino acids are capable of folding up and performing some useful biological function, but this figure is a myth.)

Second, teleology may be either intrinsic (e.g. hearts are of benefit to animals, by virtue of the fact that they pump blood around the body) or extrinsic (e.g. a machine which is designed for the benefit of its maker), or both. Even if one could show that a teleological process was required to explain the origin of proteins, it still needs to be shown that this process was designed by an external Intelligence.

(c) Can stereochemical affinity account for the origin of the genetic code?

Origin-of-life researcher Eugene Koonin in May 2013. Koonin is a Russian-American biologist and Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI). Image courtesy of Konrad Foerstner and Wikipedia.

Dr. Miller then goes on to criticize the stereochemical affinity hypothesis for the origin of the genetic code, citing the work of Dr. Eugene Koonin:

A third error relates to attempts to explain the genetic code in the first cell by a stereochemical affinity between amino acids and their corresponding codons. According to this model, naturally occurring chemical processes formed the basis for the connection between amino acids and their related codons (nucleotide triplets). Much of the key research promoting this theory was conducted by biochemist Michael Yarus. He also devised theories on how this early stereochemical era could have evolved into the modern translation system using ribosomes, tRNAs, and supporting enzymes. His research and theories are clever, but his conclusions face numerous challenges.

…For instance, Andrew Ellington’s team questioned whether the correlations in these studies were statistically significant, and they argued that his theories for the development of the modern translation system were untenable. Similarly, Eugene Koonin found that the claimed affinities were weak at best and generally unconvincing. He argued instead that the code started as a “frozen accident” undirected by any chemical properties of its physical components.

I should point out here that some of the articles which Miller links to here are rather old. For example, the article by Andrew Ellington’s team questioning the statistical significance of the correlations identified by Yarus dates back to 2000, while Koonin’s critique dates back to 2008. This is significant, as Yarus et al. published an article in 2009 presenting some of their strongest statistical evidence for the stereochemical model they were proposing:

Using recent sequences for 337 independent binding sites directed to 8 amino acids and containing 18,551 nucleotides in all, we show a highly robust connection between amino acids and cognate coding triplets within their RNA binding sites. The apparent probability (P) that cognate triplets around these sites are unrelated to binding sites is [about] 5.3 x 10-45 for codons overall, and P [is about] 2.1 x 10-46 for cognate anticodons. Therefore, some triplets are unequivocally localized near their present amino acids. Accordingly, there was likely a stereochemical era during evolution of the genetic code, relying on chemical interactions between amino acids and the tertiary structures of RNA binding sites. (Michael Yarus, Jeremy Joseph Widmann and Rob Knight, “RNA–Amino Acid Binding: A Stereochemical Era for the Genetic Code,” in Journal of Molecular Evolution, November 2009; 69(5):406-29, DOI 10.1007/s00239-009-9270-1.)

Dr. Miller also neglects to mention that while Dr. Eugene Koonin did indeed critique Yarus’ claims in the more recent 2017 article he linked to, Koonin actually proposed his own variant of the stereochemical model for the origin of the genetic code:

The conclusion that the mRNA decoding in the early translation system was performed by RNA molecules, conceivably, evolutionary precursors of modern tRNAs (proto-tRNAs) [89], implies a stereochemical model of code origin and evolution, but one that differs from the traditional models of this type in an important way (Figure 2). Under this model, the proto-RNA-amino acid interactions that defined the specificity of translation would not involve the anticodon (let alone codon) that therefore could be chosen arbitrarily and fixed through frozen accident. Instead, following the reasoning outlined previously [90], the amino acids would be recognized by unique pockets in the tertiary structure of the proto-tRNAs. The clustering of codons for related amino acids naturally follows from code expansion by duplication of the proto-tRNAs; the molecules resulting from such duplications obviously would be structurally similar and accordingly would bind similar amino acids, resulting in error minimization, in accord with Crick’s proposal (Figure 2).

Apparently, the reason why Koonin considers that “attempts to decipher the primordial stereochemical code by comparative analysis of modern translation system components are largely futile” is that “[o]nce the amino acid specificity determinants shifted from the proto-tRNAs to the aaRS, the amino acid-binding pockets in the (proto) tRNAs deteriorated such that modern tRNAs showed no consistent affinity to the cognate amino acids.” Koonin proposes that “experiments on in vitro evolution of specific aminoacylating ribozymes that can be evolved quite easily and themselves seem to recapitulate a key aspect of the primordial translation system” might help scientists to reconstruct the original code, at some future date.

Although (as Dr. Miller correctly notes) Koonin personally favors the frozen accident theory for the origin of the genetic code, he irenically proposes that “stereochemistry, biochemical coevolution, and selection for error minimization could have contributed synergistically at different stages of the evolution of the code [43] — along with frozen accident.”

Positive evidence against the design of the genetic code

But there is much more to Koonin’s article. Koonin presents damning evidence against the hypothesis that the standard genetic code (or SGC) was designed, in his article. The problem is that despite the SGC’s impressive ability to keep the number of mutational and translational errors very low, there are lots of other genetic codes which are even better:

Extensive quantitative analyses that employed cost functions differently derived from physico-chemical properties of amino acids have shown that the code is indeed highly resilient, with the probability to pick an equally robust random code being on the order of 10−7–10−8 [14,15,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68]. Obviously, however, among the ~1084 possible random codes, there is a huge number with a higher degree of error minimization than the SGC [standard genetic code – VJT]. Furthermore, the SGC is not a local peak on the code fitness landscape because certain local rearrangements can increase the level of error minimization; quantitatively, the SGC is positioned roughly halfway from an average random code to the summit of the corresponding local peak [15] (Figure 1).

Let’s do the math. There are about 1084 possible genetic codes. The one used by living things is in the top 1 in 100 million (or 1 in 108). That means that there are 1076 possible genetic codes that are better than it. To make matters worse, it’s not even the best code in its local neighborhood. It’s not “on top of a hill,” as it were. It’s about half-way up the hill. Now ask yourself: if the genetic code were intelligently designed, is this a result that one would expect?

It is disappointing that Dr. Miller fails to appreciate the significance of this evidence against design, presented by Koonin. Sadly, he never even mentions it in his article.

The RNA World – fatally flawed?

A comparison of RNA (left) with DNA (right), showing the helices and nucleobases each employs. Image courtesy of Access Excellence and Wikipedia.

Finally, Dr. Miller concludes with a number of critical remarks about the RNA world hypothesis. Before we proceed further, a definition of the hypothesis might be in order:

All RNA World hypotheses include three basic assumptions: (1) At some time in the evolution of life, genetic continuity was assured by the replication of RNA; (2) Watson-Crick base-pairing was the key to replication; (3) genetically encoded proteins were not involved as catalysts. RNA World hypotheses differ in what they assume about life that may have preceded the RNA World, about the metabolic complexity of the RNA World, and about the role of small-molecule cofactors, possibly including peptides, in the chemistry of the RNA World.
(Michael P. Robertson and Gerald F. Joyce, The Origins of the RNA World, Cold Spring Harbor Perspectives in Biology, May 2012; 4(5): a003608.)

In the article cited above, Robertson and Joyce summarize the evidence for the RNA World:

There is now strong evidence indicating that an RNA World did indeed exist on the early Earth. The smoking gun is seen in the structure of the contemporary ribosome (Ban et al. 2000; Wimberly et al. 2000; Yusupov et al. 2001). The active site for peptide-bond formation lies deep within a central core of RNA, whereas proteins decorate the outside of this RNA core and insert narrow fingers into it. No amino acid side chain comes within 18 Å of the active site (Nissen et al. 2000). Clearly, the ribosome is a ribozyme (Steitz and Moore 2003), and it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, as suggested by Crick, “the primitive ribosome could have been made entirely of RNA” (1968).

A stronger version of the RNA World hypothesis is that life on Earth began with RNA. In the article cited above, Robertson and Joyce are very frank about the difficulties attending this hypothesis, even referring to it as “The Prebiotic Chemist’s Nightmare.” Despite their sympathies for this hypothesis, the authors suggest that it may be fruitful to consider “the alternative possibility that RNA was preceded by some other replicating, evolving molecule, just as DNA and proteins were preceded by RNA.”

The RNA World hypothesis has its scientific advocates and critics. In a recent article in Biology Direct, Harold S. Bernhardt describes it as “the worst theory of the early evolution of life (except for all the others),” in a humorous adaptation of Sir Winston Churchill’s famous comment on democracy. Referee Eugene Koonin agrees, noting that “no one has achieved bona fide self-replication of RNA which is the cornerstone of the RNA World,” but adding that “there is a lot going for the RNA World … whereas the other hypotheses on the origin of life are outright helpless.” Koonin continues: “As Bernhardt rightly points out, it is not certain that RNA was the first replicator but it does seem certain that it was the first ‘good’ replicator.”

In 2009, Gerald Joyce and Tracey Lincoln of the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, California, managed to create an RNA enzyme that replicates itself indirectly, by joining together two short pieces of RNA to create a second enzyme, which then joins together another two RNA pieces to recreate the original enzyme. Although the cycle was capable of being continued indefinitely, given an input of suitable raw materials, the enzymes were only able to do their job if they were given the correct RNA strands, which Joyce and Lincoln had to synthesize.

The RNA world hypothesis received a further boost in March 2015, when NASA scientists announced for the first time that, using the starting chemical pyrimidine, which is found in meteorites, they had managed to recreate three key components of DNA and RNA: uracil, cytosine and thymine. The scientists used an ice sample containing pyrimidine exposed to ultraviolet radiation under space-like conditions, in order to produce these essential ingredients of life. “We have demonstrated for the first time that we can make uracil, cytosine, and thymine, all three components of RNA and DNA, non-biologically in a laboratory under conditions found in space,” said Michel Nuevo, research scientist at NASA’s Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, California. “We are showing that these laboratory processes, which simulate conditions in outer space, can make several fundamental building blocks used by living organisms on Earth.”

As if that were not enough, more good news for the hypothesis emerged in 2016. RNA is composed of four different chemical building blocks: adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and uracil (U). Back in 2009, a team of researchers led by John Sutherland showed a plausible series of chemical steps which might have given rise to cytosine and uracil, which are also known as pyrimidines, on the primordial Earth.However, Sutherland’s team wasn’t able to explain the origin of RNA’s purine building blocks, adenine and guanine. At last, a team of chemists led by Thomas Carell, at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich in Germany, has filled in this gap in scientists’ knowledge. They’ve found a synthetic route for making purines. To be sure, problems remain, as reporter Robert Service notes in a recent article in Science magazine (‘RNA world’ inches closer to explaining origins of life, May 12, 2016):

…Steven Benner, a chemist and origin of life expert at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution in Alachua, Florida… agrees that the newly suggested purine synthesis is a “major step forward” for the field. But even if it’s correct, he says, the chemical conditions that gave rise to the purines still don’t match those that Sutherland’s group suggests may have led to the pyrimidines. So just how As, Gs, Cs, and Us would have ended up together isn’t yet clear. And even if all the RNA bases were in the same place at the same time, it’s still not obvious what drove the bases to link up to form full-fledged RNAs, Benner says.

I conclude that whatever difficulties attend the RNA World hypothesis, they are not fatal ones. Miller’s case for the intelligent design of life is far from closed.

Conclusion

James M. Tour is a synthetic organic chemist, specializing in nanotechnology. Dr. Tour is the T. T. and W. F. Chao Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Materials Science and NanoEngineering, and Professor of Computer Science at Rice University in Houston, Texas. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

At the beginning of this post, I invited my readers to consider the question of whether Dr. Miller has made a strong scientific case for Intelligent Design. Now, I would happily grant that he has highlighted a number of difficulties for any naturalistic theory of the origin of life. But I believe I have shown that Dr. Miller’s positive case for Intelligent Design consists largely of trying to put a full stop where science leaves a comma. Dr. Miller seems to have ignored recent developments in the field of origin-of-life research, which remove at least some of the difficulties he alludes to in his articles. I think an unbiased reader would have to conclude that Miller has failed to demonstrate, to even a high degree of probability, the need for a Designer of life.

I’d like to finish with two quotes from an online essay (Origin of Life, Intelligent Design, Evolution, Creation and Faith) by Dr. James Tour, a very fair-minded chemist who has written a lot about the origin of life:

I have been labeled as an Intelligent Design (sometimes called “ID”) proponent. I am not. I do not know how to use science to prove intelligent design although some others might. I am sympathetic to the arguments and I find some of them intriguing, but I prefer to be free of that intelligent design label. As a modern-day scientist, I do not know how to prove intelligent design using my most sophisticated analytical tools— the canonical tools are, by their own admission, inadequate to answer the intelligent design question. I cannot lay the issue at the doorstep of a benevolent creator or even an impersonal intelligent designer. All I can presently say is that my chemical tools do not permit my assessment of intelligent design.

and

Those who think scientists understand the issues of prebiotic chemistry are wholly misinformed. Nobody understands them. Maybe one day we will. But that day is far from today.

Amen to both.

528 thoughts on “Recycling bad arguments: ENV on the origin of life

  1. The translation apparatus of the cell is an extremely complicated hierarchy of complex macromolecules that are related to one another in complex ways. Yet the whole functions with astounding precision.

    – Carl R. Woese

    It just happened, that’s all.

  2. It is patently clear from this survey of the code’s translation machinery that this is no mechanism that suddenly arose de novo.

    – Carl R. Woese

    It’s complex. Complex things do not arise de novo. Therefore, it did not arise de novo. Sounds like an IDist! That’s evolutionism in a nutshell.

    What’s his objective definition of complex?

    Why can’t complex things arise de novo?

    Take the Dawkins Weasel program. It could have hit upon the target phrase on the first attempt. Perhaps the target phrase wasn’t complex enough.

    Complex things arise de novo all the time.

  3. I’ve heard from Dr Miller who promises to respond to Vincent in a few days.

  4. Mung,

    It just happened, that’s all.

    Given that’s actually your position (god created DNA in one fell swoop) I’m not sure what your point is.

    Complex things arise de novo all the time.

    So I hear

    Then God commanded, “Let the water be filled with many kinds of living beings, and let the air be filled with birds.” So God created the great sea monsters, all kinds of creatures that live in the water, and all kinds of birds. And God was pleased with what he saw. He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number. Evening passed and morning came—that was the fifth day.

  5. phoodoo: Precisely! And this is why your argument is so ridiculous, but you still don’t get it!

    That’s because you consistently fail to explain why it’s “so ridiculous”.

    YOU ARE THE ONE, who posited THIS as an example of why we can say the origin of the genetic genetic code was random, NOT ME! This was the example YOU used.

    No, I did NOT give this as a piece of evidence for why we should think the origin of the genetic code was random. I used it as an example to demonstrate that at least a genetic code with random elements are possible.

    The evidence for the starting nature of the code is from comparative genomics and structural alignments, and biochemical testing of the resurrected ancestors.

    The example with the statistical proteome I brought up simply to substantiate that it is possible for an organism to exist and remain alive, with elements of a statistical proteome.

    So the agument there actually went somethin like this:
    First I state the evidence for the random nature of the origin of translation.

    My exact words are these:

    Rumraket: There is a lot of evidence for the origin and evolutionary history of both families of the (Class I and Class II) aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetases from a very, very ancient single gene. Remarkably, these two families of enzymes ultimately derive from the same gene and it’s anti-parallel strand. The common ancestor proteins have been phylogenetically inferred, synthesized in the lab and tested for their biochemical functions. It was found that not only did these ancient enzymes actually work, which is remarkable in itself considering the fact that these were enzymes that have not existed on Earth for over 3.5 billion years, but also because it confirmed the hypothesis that they started out highly promiscous.

    Then, because I anticipate that you might doubt that it is even possible for an organism to exist with a statistical proteome, I give a reference to an example of an organism known to have that, with these words:

    Rumraket: There are organisms known in the wild, right now, with promiscous tRNA synthetases that occasionally misincorporate amino acids during translation. They literally constitute examples of living organisms that make statistical proteins, as is hypothesized to be the case at the origin of the genetic code and the translation system.
    Here’s an example: Naturally occurring aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases editing-domain mutations that cause mistranslation in Mycoplasma parasites
    (… abstract …)
    Open that paper and scroll down to the section titled “M. mobile Has a Statistical Proteome.” and read that.

    So to flesh it out a bit more what I was trying to do. You might have some data which indicates a conclusion which seems to you impossible, or at least extremely implausible. And this might cause you to doubt the reality of the data you have. But then you find an actual concrete example of the very sort of thing your data indicated. So the sort of thing you first believed was impossible, is now there right before your eyes. What do you do?

    I will add a caveat here. There is still a pretty significant difference in the degree and extent of the stochasticity of the hypothesized primordial translation system, and the particular example we know of from extant life. In the example from Mycoplasma, it is only for a few aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetases that there is occasional, relatively rare misincorporation of amino acids. Whereas for the origin of the code, it was conjectured (by Carl Woese) that all aminoacylations were statistical.
    Later on (in 2013), this conjecture was tested and found to be correct, in that the reconstructed putative individual molecular ancestors of class I and II aaRSs were found to actually be highly promiscous. Exactly as first suggested. Even though they still did display a 5-fold preference for their canonical amino acids, over those from the complementary class. So this data would indicate that while primordial coding was statistical, it was still intrinsicly biased towards incorporation of some amino acids over others.

    And now you are scratching your head about why I find it incredulous that you are saying that. Maybe you need to hit pause and think for a bit.

    Actually I think you should try to read for comprehension. When I say in my previous post that I try to be precise with my language, I really do mean it. The words I use I try to pick carefully to avoid mistakes and to further understanding.

  6. phoodoo: And not only that, you then doubled down on your example, saying, not only are there many redundancies which prevent poor translation of some proteins

    I have said nothing of the sort anywhere. You seem extremely confused about what I am trying to accomplish with the particular references I give. Which I find really odd, because I usually respond directly to something you ask for.

    but there are some bacteria which have evolved to do just the opposite, so see, look, the code must be random! Apparently you felt if you just threw in a technical enough looking study, that this would be a great way to impress Walto.

    This is all complete nonsense.

    Why you thought the example of mycoplasm was useful in anyway towards your discussion, other than to further try to impress that you can find technical documents, is beyond me.

    I think I’m starting to agree with you. It’s beyond you.

    I believe it proved exactly the opposite, that the code is extremely versatile in its use of translating proteins, NOT random and certainly not an example of how other codes would certainly be so much better!

    Once again, I brought up the example with Mycoplasma to substantiate the plausibility of what was indicated by the evidence from comparative genomics and structural alignments, which is that it was possible for an organism with elements of a statistical proteome to exist. This example was not intended to serve as some sort of prooff of the adaptive nature of improved error minimization. I never claimed it was anywhere.

    I think you constant state of confusion is due to how you approach both the subject, and this discussion in particular. You read everything with an adverserial intent. You start with a conviction that it’s all wrong and bullshit, that I am an arrogant asshole you want to shut up and catch say something stupid, and then somehow your brain just piles it all together in a big mess.

    It is remarkable how frequently your posts, rather than actually quote my words, show you sort of paraphrasing me instead in a way where I say what you think I’m saying. Stop doing that. Read the words I actually write. Don’t try to translate it into phoodoo’s personal caricature of the silly chance-worshipping darwinist boogeymen.

  7. Mung: Rumraket: Presumably your perfect God made the entire universe, set up it’s laws and constants, the first life, and somewhere along the way was steering and guiding evolution to make the diversity of life.

    This is somewhat hilarious. It’s the materialists like Rumraket who are forced to appeal to laws and constants.

    I’m not a materialist. And I have made no appeals to laws and constants. It is the people who advance fine tuning type arguments who appeal to them, because they apparently believe that they were somehow “set up” by their God to make the world we see. They never get around to explaining how they know this.

    If they don’t, then ‘chance’ becomes their god. And they don’t like to admit that.

    None of that makes any sense. I don’t have any gods and I don’t think chance is a God, and I don’t worship anything (gods, chance or otherwise). I have no problem admitting to things I actually believe, but I do have a problem being told that I believe things that I don’t.

  8. Mung: Rumraket: Because he has a computer and can calculate the rate and magnitude of deleterious mutations using different code structures.

    Really. He managed to compute every single possible fitness landscape for the genetic code. Remarkable. And you believe that, do you?

    I literally wrote that he can calculate the “rate and magnitude of deleterious mutations using different code structures”. I never claimed, nor do I believe that he has computed every possible fitness landscape for the genetic code.

    You people really have reading comprehension issues. It’s rather astonishing to see how you two can so consistently fail to understand anything. Rarely have I seen such glaring examples of Morton’s Demon at work. Your intense emotional and cognitive biases makes it almost impossible for us to communicate on this topic. You get almost everything wrong all the time.

    Free yourselves of this debilitating mind virus you have been infected with. You can fight it.

  9. Rumraket: No, I did NOT give this as a piece of evidence for why we should think the origin of the genetic code was random. I used it as an example to demonstrate that at least a genetic code with random elements are possible.

    The examples you gave are examples of changes to the genetic code??

  10. Mung: vjtorley: Rumraket’s expectation that the genetic code would be “the best possible code with respect to reducing the deleterious effects of mutations” is a perfectly legitimate one.

    His expectation needs a scientific basis, which it currently lacks. So it’s not legitimate.

    I would like you to point this requirement for a scientific basis back at yourself and your fine tuning argument. The people who advance fine tuning arguments say the universe is set up so it will produce and allow life to exist. That’s an expectation of what God would do with a universe. But it has no scientific basis. So by your own standard, it’s “not legitimate”.

    Hoisted by your own petard.

    When I say that I expect the genetic code on design to be the best possible code wrt reducing the deleterious effects of mutations, I’m simply going by what ID proponents are normally in the business of saying about their designer. The general idea is that things the designer makes are INCREDIBLY OPTIMAL, amazingly complex, unbelievably good and beautiful, much better than what any humans could ever make and bla bla bla, and in contrast, the things a “random process” makes are shitty and crappy and useless.

    You will see this view expressed in countless ways by creationists and ID propnents of all stripes. For example, in the thread on the evolution of sex, phoodoo is so thoroughly perplexed that we don’t see organisms dragging themselves around with semi-useless limbs. He thinks that if evolution is true, we should see a lot of barely useless crap. So when phoodoo doesn’t see this, and instead see things “perfectly adapted” to their environment, he takes this to be evidence for design and against evolution.
    When they see the double helix stucture of DNA and how it so amazingly and perfectly sticks together, they see evidence of design and against “random lucky accidents”.
    When they see the bacterial flagellum, they see this amazingly matched complexity. They like to quote at length when scientists describe the flagellum in superlative terms saying it’s “the most efficient machine in the universe” and crap like that. They like to quotemine Darwin about how the eye is so amazingly designed and it all fits together so wonderfully.

    They write entire books about how there just can’t possibly be any junk-DNA because the designer would never do this. (Hey, is this an expectation with a “scientific basis”, btw? No? Well then it’s “not legitimate” – According to the princple of Mung).

    Given this is how YOU people constantly affirm that you think about your designer, it is only natural to extend this to include the genetic code. Torley is right, if the genetic code had been found to be the best possible code there is with respect to error minimization, you would have been hysterical about how it could not possibly have evolved to that point. And no amount of arguments from scientists about how such a code might be selectively beneficial because it reduces the effects of deleterious mutations would have persuaded you otherwise.

    I have, in point of fact, have had arguments with IDcreationists who literally claimed that the genetic code WAS the best possible code there is with respect to error minimization. You people always think that you designer would make the BEST POSSIBLE version of something. In typical, textbook ad-hoc fashion, you always rationalize away contradictory evidence. I once had an argument with an IDcreationist who claimed that in some time in the future, it will be discovered that the route taken by the recurrent laryngeal nerve in the giraffe is the OPTIMAL route for that nerve, it’s just that we mere humans haven’t figured it out yet. It’s always ad-hoc excuse-making.

    But because the genetic code is not the best possible code with respect to error minimization, you are forced to make shit up to avoid the conflict with your beliefs. You see a way out by positing the code must have another fitness dimension besides error minimization. Now the code also has to facilitate adaptive variation(which, ironically would be an argument in favor of evolution).

    Your reasoning here is arrived at entirely ad-hoc, and the only motivation you have for this is the fact that the other interpretation is evidence against your normal way to think about what you designer normally does.

    It’s funny how, instead of the code being the best possible code wrt error minimization, you now think the code is the best possible code wrt to error minimization and facilitating adaptive variation. This ironically confirms the very principle that motivated myself and Torley to argue the code we have is evidence against ID: That you always think your designer makes the best possible version of something.

    If the genetic code is not the best possible version wrt to error minimization, then there must be some other dimension where it’s the best possible version. IDcreationist design demands it.

    vjtorley: The fact that the genetic code is not optimal in this respect means that if it was designed, then we need to find out what other design constraints prevent it from being optimal.

    It doesn’t mean it wasn’t designed, because that doesn’t logically follow, and you know it, and so avoid making that claim. Unlike Rumraket.

    But there is no fact that we can even concieve of about the code, that would logically entail that it was not designed. It will always be possible, no matter what we find, to come up with some ad-hoc rationalization that what we see is just something the designer made to trick us. And that is exactly what you did. Given the way you tend to think about your designer, it is completely unfalsifiable, because you always play the Scooby Doo and the case of the silly skeptic-game: You make excuse upon excuse upon excuse for why anything and everything could be what the designer wanted after all.

  11. phoodoo: The examples you gave are examples of changes to the genetic code??

    Be more specific. Point out a specific example I gave and I will tell you again, just as I did when I first gave it, what it was meant to be an example of.

    Don’t just say “the examples you gave”. I have given exampes of several different things meant to substantiate different points.

  12. Mung: phoodoo: If Rumraket wants to make my case for me, that the genome is amazingly able to perform exactly the tasks it needs to in order to sustain life, a sure sign that it is NOT a random code, I guess I should thank him.

    Any old code should suffice and I have a computer program which proves it!

    See, this is what I mean. Here we have this tendence where you rationalize in after-the-fact fashion how, whatever we see, is the best possible thing there is for that particular thing.

    Oh well now the genetic code “is amazingly able to perform exactly the task it needs to in order to sustain life”.

  13. Mung: Rumraket: Yes, that one. The one that knows there’s more to evolution than just natural selection.

    Or less. LoL.

    No, not less. I gave references to what Carl Woese says about evolution and the origin of life.

    Are you saying that Woese believed in the random evolution of the genetic code?

    I don’t know what he “believed”, I know what he himself hypothesized already in 1965.

    Again:
    [ C R Woese. On the evolution of the genetic code. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1965 Dec; 54(6): 1546–1552. PMCID: PMC300511]

    “Two important consequences stem immediately from this concept of error-ridden translation in the primitive cell: (1) since perfect translations of a gene are neglible (and thus no two proteins in the cell are identical), the proteins produced by any given gene will have to be what we shall call ”statistical proteins” – i.e., to each gene there corresponds a group of proteins whose primary structures are related to some theoretical average primary structure, which in turn characterizes the gene; (2) it would be relatively easy to alter actual codon assignments, since this would in many cases have little or no deleterious effect on the already rather chaotic situation existing in the primitive cell.”

  14. Mung: Take the Dawkins Weasel program. It could have hit upon the target phrase on the first attempt.

    You know that’s not true. But don’t let truth get in the way of your trolling ministry.
    Are you a YEC yet, Mung?

  15. Rumraket,

    Haha. Tell you if you gave any examples of mutations to the genetic code?

    You know, sometimes it only takes one sentence to refute someone’s 50 paragraph argument.

  16. phoodoo: Tell you if you gave any examples of mutations to the genetic code?

    You were asking if “The examples you gave are examples of changes to the genetic code??”. As I said, I have given several different examples of different things. Among them, yes, there were examples of mutations that changed the genetic code.
    One such reference would be this: Crucial role of conserved lysine 277 in the fidelity of tRNA aminoacylation by Escherichia coli valyl-tRNA synthetase.
    In this publication we find out that in E coli the Valyl-tRNA-synthetase enzyme (the one that puts Valine on tRNA^Val), at amino acid position 227 in this enzyme (which means it is the amino acid number 227 counting from the n-terminal end of the protein), there sits a Valine amino acid.

    If this amino acid is substituted with Alanine, the enzyme is rendered promiscous and will occasionally misincorporate Threonine in place of Valine.

    As such, this mutation then constitutes an example of a mutation that changes the coding order of the genetic code. It means the four codons that normally code for the amino acid Valine, now also randomly code for the amino acid Threonine.

  17. phoodoo: You know, sometimes it only takes one sentence to refute someone’s 50 paragraph argument.

    It’s a shame you personally will never be able to accomplish this.

  18. Rumraket: Among them, yes, there were examples of mutations that changed the genetic code.

    You said you were very precise about word usage right?

    Ok, great so this is one example of a change to the genetic code. We will get to that.

    You also said examples, plural, so you also gave other examples of changes to the genetic code? Right?

  19. Replying to Jerry Coyne who said that “cells are transitory, and DNA is not”, in this video Denis Noble said at about the 49min40sec mark:

    The point is this. The natural error rate in copying is one in ten to the four. In a genome of 3 billion base pairs that’s millions. What actually happens is one in ten to the ten. Hardly a single error in copying a whole genome. How is that done? A whole army of proteins constrained by the lipids, which are not coded for incidentally by DNA, orchestrates the correction so that you end up with the extraordinary fidelity of copying. The ability to be as it were not transient is a property of the cell. There is nothing other than the cell that enables that to be done. I think enough said on that one. So I’m afraid at the meeting last week they met with a stone wall.

    And so I finish with my final conclusion and I’ve left a few minutes for discussion. The conclusion is simply this, that organisms can and do and demonstrably do harness stochasticity precisely in order to generate functionality.And that turns the neo-Darwinist inference on its head. The central claim remember is random mutations accumulating slowly and then natural selection to distinguish between the results. If on the contrary you can harness stochasticity to direct it in particular ways just as the immune system does just as bacteria do when the’re starved or deprived of their cillia and so on you can end up with the evolutionary process being directional and that is a huge change. We’re not talking about tinkering with the modern synthesis, we’re not talking about minor changes to the neo-Darwinist synthesis we are talking about a very major change conceptually. And the implication for economics for political theory for various other disciplines philosophy included, that had taken over, and believe me they have, the price equations and all the other mathematics of evolutionary biology are absolutely immense.

    We see stochasticity being used in nature all the time. Some fungi release hundreds of millions of spores. Men release around a hundred million sperm each ejaculation. Why assume that the mutation rate is accidental?

  20. phoodoo: Well, Walto, you consider yourself to be a smart guy don’t you.I assume you are pretty smart.

    So when Rumraket says something like:

    Has he convinced you that, because some ancestral population lacked some editing functions, and the extant population contains such editing functions, that the ONLY logical conclusion is because it was a random event?Are you convinced by this?Is this the only conclusion YOU would draw?If so, maybe you can explain to me why this is the only conclusion one could draw.

    Does one really need to understand every detail of the entire coding process to say this?Does one need to know which codon is assigned to which amino acid to make this conclusion?But this is pretty much what Rumraket is trying to persuade us all of.

    So you tell me, why are you so convinced by this?Because it sounds technical?

    What the hell does whether I was convinced by this or that have to do with anything I was talking about? I didn’t say you should be convinced, did I? I said you should be grateful for the trouble rum has expended.

    And please try to explain to Charlie (since, based on his absurd comment above he can’t understand much about common courtesy either), that my asking you the question above is no more an “insult” than were rumraket’s posts. Though, admittedly, my posts on this thread have not been either time-consuming or informative. Here’s a recap: I thanked Vince for his time and trouble, wondered whether you’d do the same for Rumraket, and now this.

    If you’re not convinced, you’re not convinced. I will say, however, that your characterization of his claim in your post as follows:

    because some ancestral population lacked some editing functions, and the extant population contains such editing functions, that the ONLY logical conclusion is because it was a random event?

    seems to me inaccurate. I don’t find any such claim in anything he posted. As I said, you like to fight. You seem to take anything posted about evolution by someone who believes in it to be a threat to your world view and you attack it. This could be wrong, however, and I’ll retract it if you can find in any of Rumraket’s long posts any sentence that even suggests that the “only possible conclusion” consistent with observable facts of life involves one or more “random events.”

  21. CharlieM,

    Charlie, let me remind you, Denis Noble does not believe in the consensus model of evolutionary development. As such, even though he is a highly qualified , renowned in fact, PHD of physiology, because he does not believe in the consensus view, his opinions about the consensus view of evolution are irrelevant, because there is a consensus view in science regarding the theory of evolution.

    So you see, this once again proves the voracity of the consensus view of biology, because in virtually every case, the people who challenge it, don’t believe in the consensus view anyway. So their opinions have no bearing on the consensus view.

  22. walto: that the ONLY logical conclusion is because it was a random event?

    seems to me inaccurate. I don’t find any such claim in anything he posted.

    Good, good Walto, welcome! I will pass along your objection to Rumraket, that the logical conclusion from the studies he has presented, is that it was a random event. I am sure Rumraket has never made any claim about it being a random event anyway, so probably he won’t mind your objections at all.

    Then again…

  23. phoodoo, I believe Rumraket is using abduction–inference to the best explanation. He is not saying that something is the “only possible conclusion.”

    After all, it’s consistent with observations that the world was created five minutes ago and all the memories in everybody’s heads were just planted there at that time. It’s a “possible” conclusion: but there’s no evidence for it, so we throw it out.

    But look– you want to fight. What’s more, you LIKE to fight. So here I am suggesting you not fight so much. WTF?

  24. phoodoo:
    walto,

    And with the pacifist Rumraket no less…

    You should take walto’s advice, all you get from fighting is your ass handed to you every time

  25. Rumraket: The same physical laws and constants that govern the chemistry of carbon, govern the chemistry of silicon and oxygen. Was the entire universe set up to produce lots of sand? You heard it here first!

    From a link on the op Jeremy England states:
    “You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant.”

    England argues that under certain conditions, matter will spontaneously self-organize…

    If England’s approach stands up to more testing, it could further liberate biologists from seeking a Darwinian explanation for every adaptation and allow them to think more generally in terms of dissipation-driven organization. They might find, for example, that “the reason that an organism shows characteristic X rather than Y may not be because X is more fit than Y, but because physical constraints make it easier for X to evolve than for Y to evolve,” Louis said.

    He believes that matter has the ability to self-organise into living substance. Sand does not have the ability to self-organise, it is formed from larger aggregates due to external forces alone.

    As a matter of interest some sand is known to have originated from living substance.

    From Wikipedia
    The second most common type of sand is calcium carbonate, for example aragonite, which has mostly been created, over the past half billion years, by various forms of life, like coral and shellfish. For example, it is the primary form of sand apparent in areas where reefs have dominated the ecosystem for millions of years like the Caribbean.

  26. phoodoo: Rumraket: Among them, yes, there were examples of mutations that changed the genetic code.

    You said you were very precise about word usage right?

    I said I try to be 🙂 But yes.

    Ok, great so this is one example of a change to the genetic code. We will get to that.

    Okay.

    You also said examples, plural, so you also gave other examples of changes to the genetic code? Right?

    Yes, the article I linked with Mycoplasma would also constitute one such example.

  27. CharlieM: From a link on the op Jeremy England states:
    “You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant.”

    He believes that matter has the ability to self-organise into living substance. Sand does not have the ability to self-organise, it is formed from larger aggregates due to external forces alone.

    As a matter of interest some sand is known to have originated from living substance.

    From Wikipedia
    The second most common type of sand is calcium carbonate, for example aragonite, which has mostly been created, over the past half billion years, by various forms of life, like coral and shellfish. For example, it is the primary form of sand apparent in areas where reefs have dominated the ecosystem for millions of years like the Caribbean.

    Yes I’m aware of these facts, but you missed the point. The point was not that sand was alive, or would become alive. The point was that you can’t point to the same laws that govern the chemistry of carbon, and then think those laws must have set up so that carbon has the particular properties it has, when those very same laws also governs the chemistry of silicon and oxygen (which would make silicate rocks, of which much is eroded into sand).

    There are many other things in the universe besides living cells, and they’re the product of the same laws of physics and chemistry as living cells are. So you can’t say the universe is “for life”, when it is just as true to say it is for rocks, gas and dust. Those same laws made the moon, and halleys comet, and the granite in the sidewalk, and so on and so forth, and all these things are dead.

    How do you know they’re “for life”, when so many other things which are not alive were produced by them too? You obviously don’t.

  28. dazz: You should take walto’s advice, all you get from fighting is your ass handed to you every time

    Well, yeah, he’s eating shit here. But FWIW, I think he’s pummeling keiths on another thread. Like me, phoodoo doesn’t know much about the science, apparently. But unlike me, he doesn’t stay out those wars. It’s part of my own religion to recognize that we ignoramooses are likely to do better on issues where one doesn’t have to have digested so much bio to make cogent arguments.

  29. Rumraket,

    Ok, so that’s all right? I want to make sure I haven’t put words in your mouth. Now these are both examples of changes to the genetic code right? You are not going to go back and call this something else right. This is a change to the genetic code. correct?

    And these are the two examples you gave of changes to the genetic code?

  30. phoodoo:
    Rumraket,

    Ok, so that’s all right?I want to make sure I haven’t put words in your mouth.Now these are both examples of changes to the genetic code right?You are not going to go back and call this something else right.This is a change to the genetic code. correct?

    And these are the two examples you gave of changes to the genetic code?

    Yes they are. They are examples of changes to the genetic code.

  31. walto,

    Well, yeah, he’s eating shit here. But FWIW, I think he’s pummeling keiths on another thread.

    So far, neither you nor he have succeeded in defending his position. That’s hardly “pummeling”.

  32. Rumraket: Yes I’m aware of these facts, but you missed the point. The point was not that sand was alive, or would become alive. The point was that you can’t point to the same laws that govern the chemistry of carbon, and then think those laws must have set up so that carbon has the particular properties it has, when those very same laws also governs the chemistry of silicon and oxygen (which would make silicate rocks, of which much is eroded into sand).

    And you are missing my point. Its not just the laws of particular elements, it is the properties of all elements and matter in general. The properties of water is not contained in the properties of hydrogen nor oxygen, and likewise the properties of living substance is not contained in the properties of molecules nor elements.

    There are many other things in the universe besides living cells, and they’re the product of the same laws of physics and chemistry as living cells are. So you can’t say the universe is “for life”, when it is just as true to say it is for rocks, gas and dust. Those same laws made the moon, and halleys comet, and the granite in the sidewalk, and so on and so forth, and all these things are dead.

    How do you know they’re “for life”, when so many other things which are not alive were produced by them too? You obviously don’t.

    It is your belief that the universe, galaxies and stars are made up of dead physical matter. I believe that life is a fundamental property of these things. Just because earth based organisms use processes involving nucleic acids to build their bodies does not mean that nucleic acid is a necessary constituent of all life.

    And if what we understand as stars and galaxies are just that part of living systems that our senses give us an awareness of then all the dead objects and substances you mention are actually the product of life.

  33. CharlieM: I believe that life is a fundamental property of these things.

    …There are no actual REASONS for taking this wack position but I read about it in Steiner who (kind of) got it from Goethe, and the idea appeals to me because I’m afraid of dying. The lambs bladder stuff is also in Steiner, and there’s no good reason for that either, but it’s not as appealing as the life is a fundamental property of things biz, because it doesn’t have any anti-death characteristics the way the other stuff does.

    Ich habe genug.

  34. CharlieM:

    It is your belief that the universe, galaxies and stars are made up of dead physical matter. I believe that life is a fundamental property of these things.

    Which leads to the conclusion that dead bodies are alive, making the concept of ‘alive’ useless. Well done.

  35. keiths:
    CharlieM:

    Which leads to the conclusion that dead bodies are alive, making the concept of ‘alive’ useless.Well done.

    While we’re at it, the Mona Lisa is an inherent property of paint.

  36. Hi Alan Fox,

    I’ve heard from Dr Miller who promises to respond to Vincent in a few days.

    Thanks for the tip. I’m looking forward to hearing from him. By the way, I have a quick question for the biologists on this thread. What’s the estimated mass in kilodaltons of the hypothetical Very Simple Replicator (VSR)? What about the first RNA molecule that could reproduce itself with a high degree of accuracy? Finally, what about LUCA? Does anyone have any numbers? Thanks in advance.

  37. vjtorley:
    Hi Alan Fox,

    Thanks for the tip. I’m looking forward to hearing from him. By the way, I have a quick question for the biologists on this thread. What’s the estimated mass in kilodaltons of the hypothetical Very Simple Replicator (VSR)? What about the first RNA molecule that could reproduce itself with a high degree of accuracy? Finally, what about LUCA? Does anyone have any numbers? Thanks in advance.

    I’m not a biologist, but regarding the first VSR, nobody knows and I have not seen any qualified guesses.

    Some have conjectured that the ribosome itself is actually a very distant descendant of that first RNA replicating molecule for a number of reasons. Their reasoning is outlined in these two intriguing papers:

    [Root-Bernstein M, Root-Bernstein R. The ribosome as a missing link in the evolution of life. J Theor Biol. 2015 Feb 21;367:130-58. doi: 10.1016/j.jtbi.2014.11.025. Epub 2014 Dec 10.]

    Abstract
    Many steps in the evolution of cellular life are still mysterious. We suggest that the ribosome may represent one important missing link between compositional (or metabolism-first), RNA-world (or genes-first) and cellular (last universal common ancestor) approaches to the evolution of cells. We present evidence that the entire set of transfer RNAs for all twenty amino acids are encoded in both the 16S and 23S rRNAs of Escherichia coli K12; that nucleotide sequences that could encode key fragments of ribosomal proteins, polymerases, ligases, synthetases, and phosphatases are to be found in each of the six possible reading frames of the 16S and 23S rRNAs; and that every sequence of bases in rRNA has information encoding more than one of these functions in addition to acting as a structural component of the ribosome. Ribosomal RNA, in short, is not just a structural scaffold for proteins, but the vestigial remnant of a primordial genome that may have encoded a self-organizing, self-replicating, auto-catalytic intermediary between macromolecules and cellular life.

    [Root-Bernstein R, Root-Bernstein M. The ribosome as a missing link in prebiotic evolution II: Ribosomes encode ribosomal proteins that bind to common regions of their own mRNAs and rRNAs. J Theor Biol. 2016 May 21;397:115-27. doi: 10.1016/j.jtbi.2016.02.030. Epub 2016 Mar 4.]

    Abstract
    We have proposed that the ribosome may represent a missing link between prebiotic chemistries and the first cells. One of the predictions that follows from this hypothesis, which we test here, is that ribosomal RNA (rRNA) must have encoded the proteins necessary for ribosomal function. In other words, the rRNA also functioned pre-biotically as mRNA. Since these ribosome-binding proteins (rb-proteins) must bind to the rRNA, but the rRNA also functioned as mRNA, it follows that rb-proteins should bind to their own mRNA as well. This hypothesis can be contrasted to a “null” hypothesis in which rb-proteins evolved independently of the rRNA sequences and therefore there should be no necessary similarity between the rRNA to which rb-proteins bind and the mRNA that encodes the rb-protein. Five types of evidence reported here support the plausibility of the hypothesis that the mRNA encoding rb-proteins evolved from rRNA: (1) the ubiquity of rb-protein binding to their own mRNAs and autogenous control of their own translation; (2) the higher-than-expected incidence of Arginine-rich modules associated with RNA binding that occurs in rRNA-encoded proteins; (3) the fact that rRNA-binding regions of rb-proteins are homologous to their mRNA binding regions; (4) the higher than expected incidence of rb-protein sequences encoded in rRNA that are of a high degree of homology to their mRNA as compared with a random selection of other proteins; and (5) rRNA in modern prokaryotes and eukaryotes encodes functional proteins. None of these results can be explained by the null hypothesis that assumes independent evolution of rRNA and the mRNAs encoding ribosomal proteins. Also noteworthy is that very few proteins bind their own mRNAs that are not associated with ribosome function. Further tests of the hypothesis are suggested: (1) experimental testing of whether rRNA-encoded proteins bind to rRNA at their coding sites; (2) whether tRNA synthetases, which are also known to bind to their own mRNAs, are encoded by the tRNA sequences themselves; (3) and the prediction that archaeal and prokaryotic (DNA-based) genomes were built around rRNA “genes” so that rRNA-related sequences will be found to make up an unexpectedly high proportion of these genomes.

    To the people who think there was no simple early stage of life, regardless of what you think of these people’s hypothesis, you can’t ignore the demonstrable fact that they really do find fragments of sequences of everything from RNA and DNA polymerases, through tRNA molecules, to various central metabolic enzymes. Not to mention the fact that ribosomal RNA contains strong evidence that it once upon a time encoded ribosomal proteins. That evidence really is there and cries out for some sort of explanation.

  38. walto: …There are no actual REASONS for taking this wack position but I read about it in Steiner who (kind of) got it from Goethe, and the idea appeals to me because I’m afraid of dying.

    Maybe if you knew what Steiner was actually saying you would fear surviving death more than dying due to the inevitable trials and difficult experiences that he says is necessary for us to overcome.

    Steiner:

    People do not deny the existence of the spiritual world, or the possibility of attaining knowledge of it, as a result of being able to prove its non-existence, but because they desire to fill their souls with thoughts which will deceive them and rid them of their dread of the spiritual world. Liberation from this longing for a materialistic narcotic for deadening the dread of the spiritual world cannot be gained till a survey is made of the whole circumstances of this part of the soul’s life, as here described. “Materialism as a psychic phenomenon of fear” is an important chapter in the science of the soul.

    We need to face our fears.

    walto:

    The lambs bladder stuff is also in Steiner, and there’s no good reason for that either, but it’s not as appealing as the life is a fundamental property of things biz, because it doesn’t have any anti-death characteristics the way the other stuff does.

    Ich habe genug.

    At the very least the absence of the use of pesticides is a good reason for using it.

    The fate of bio-dynamic agricultural methods will be determined by its effectiveness. Crop growers will soon give up any methods that do not work.

  39. As if he had any goddamn clue what happens after death. I can’t take it seriously when a living man tells me I should fear what comes after I die. They’re bullshitters.

    CharlieM: People do not deny the existence of the spiritual world, or the possibility of attaining knowledge of it, as a result of being able to prove its non-existence, but because they desire to fill their souls with thoughts which will deceive them and rid them of their dread of the spiritual world. Liberation from this longing for a materialistic narcotic for deadening the dread of the spiritual world cannot be gained till a survey is made of the whole circumstances of this part of the soul’s life, as here described. “Materialism as a psychic phenomenon of fear” is an important chapter in the science of the soul.

    Where does he get that shit? Whatever he’s smoking, I hope I can afford it.

  40. keiths:
    CharlieM:

    Which leads to the conclusion that dead bodies are alive, making the concept of ‘alive’ useless.Well done.

    No, it leads to the conclusion that death is a consequence of life and is necessary for the continuation of life. Dead bodies are the product of living matter.

    Death occurs at all levels.
    UCSB ScienceLine

    Cells are always created and destroyed in the human body. About 300 million cells die every minute in our bodies!

    Which demonstrates that life is not the product of material substance, but that living beings use material substance in order to maintain their existence.

  41. Flint: While we’re at it, the Mona Lisa is an inherent property of paint.

    I take it that your sarcasm means to demonstrate that there is much more to the painting than the medium from which it is built up. Well done, you are on the right lines.

  42. Link from the op, The secret of how life on earth began

    So Sutherland has set out to find a “Goldilocks chemistry”: one that is not so messy that it becomes useless, but also not so simple that it is limited in what it can do. Get the mixture just complicated enough and all the components of life might form at once, then come together.

    In other words, four billion years ago there was a pond on the Earth. It sat there for years until the mix of chemicals was just right. Then, perhaps within minutes, the first cell came into existence…

    If Sutherland is right, then our entire approach to the origin of life for the last 40 years has been wrong. Ever since the sheer complexity of the cell became clear, scientists have been working on the assumption that the first cells must have been constructed gradually, one piece at a time.

    Following Leslie Orgel’s proposal that RNA came first, researchers have been “trying to get one thing before another thing, and then have that invent the other”, says Sutherland. But he thinks the best way is to make everything at once.

    “What we’ve done is to challenge the idea that it’s too complicated to make everything in one go,” says Sutherland. “You certainly could make the building blocks for all the systems at once.”

    They are beginning to discover that life could not have started by a gradual step by step process, so they have now conceded that several things have to be in place all at the same time at the outset. Now their only option is to demonstrate that there is nothing complicated about getting it all together at once.

  43. Rumraket:
    As if he had any goddamn clue what happens after death. I can’t take it seriously when a living man tells me I should fear what comes after I die. They’re bullshitters.

    Where does he get that shit? Whatever he’s smoking, I hope I can afford it.

    Not only did he make public his findings but he also laid out a path that others might follow if they so wished.

  44. CharlieM:

    Not only did he make public his findings but he also laid out a path that others might follow if they so wished.

    His “findings”. LOL.

    Charlie, you put the capital G in Gullible.

  45. keiths:
    CharlieM:

    His “findings”.LOL.

    Charlie, you put the capital G in Gullible.

    I would not expect you to believe otherwise.

  46. keiths:

    CharlieM,

    The development of any living organism is always found to begin with a cell and nothing less. What I am advocating is that it is the same for earthly life as a whole; it began with a functional cell and nothing less.

    Other than the fact that the idea gets you off, why do you believe this? Evidence and argument, please.

    In case you missed it, Michael Marshall. belives the case can be argued.

    Arguably there can be no life without cells

  47. Rumraket: People do not deny the existence of the spiritual world, or the possibility of attaining knowledge of it, as a result of being able to prove its non-existence, but because they desire to fill their souls with thoughts which will deceive them and rid them of their dread of the spiritual world.

    That’s actually hilarious. Utterly backwards. The sad truth (as if you cared) is that Steiner, like you and millions of others, was filled with dread at the idea of NOT EXISTING AT ALL. And so made up a bunch of ridiculous stories to make him and a small band of gullible followers (like you, but unlike most of the millions of others) feel better.

    The point is that the real dread is not of “the spiritual world.” It’s of disappearing into nothingness. The spiritual world is a sop for scaredy cats.

  48. walto: That’s actually hilarious.Utterly backwards.The sad truth(as if you cared) is that Steiner, like you and millions of others, was filled with dread at the idea of NOT EXISTING AT ALL.And so made up a bunch of ridiculous stories to make him and a small band of gullible followers (like you, but unlike most of the millions of others) feel better.

    The point is that the real dread is not of “the spiritual world.”It’s of disappearing into nothingness.The spiritual world is a sop for scaredy cats.

    The fear of not dying.

    It is the excuse for dismissing realists that one sees over and over again, here and at UD. Not much of an intellectual challenge.

    Glen Davidson

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