By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. – Isaiah 45:23-24
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. – John 1:9
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’ – John 1:29
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. – John 3:17
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. – John 6:51
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. – John 12:32
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. – John 12:47
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. – Romans 3:23-24
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. – Romans 11:32
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. – 1 Corinthians 15:22
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Philippians 2:10-11
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. – 1 Timothy 2:5-6
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. – Titus 2:11
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. – Hebrews 2:9
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. – 1 John 2:2
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned … But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. – Romans 5:12-19
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. – 2 Corinthians 5:14-19
Sorry, Atheists, but you win!
fifth,
fifth,
Where did you get the idea that contradictory statements couldn’t be clear?
Yes, the Bible is a contradictory mess, and yes, the contradictory statements themselves are often quite clear. Those aren’t mutually exclusive.
The atheist has no problem accepting this. The Bible was written by a bunch of different humans, so it isn’t surprising that they contradict each other.
Only the doofi who think the Bible is the inerrant word of God run into trouble with obvious contradictions like this:
And:
Inerrantists tie themselves in knots trying to explain away contradictions like the above. For the rest of us, it’s easy: two authors, two contradictory stories, no surprise.
Perhaps keiths can find for us some passages from the Bible that state that Jesus was not crucified and that he did not die and that he was not raised from the dead and that he did not ascend into heaven. I’d really like to see those.
“I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
– Isaiah 65:1
So for your argument to be valid you must assume that The Bible is not inspired and Christianity is false.
You begin your investigation by assuming that Christianity is false and conclude that Christianity is false.
Who would of thunk it?
peace
keiths claims to be in possession of an argument that Christianity is false. One day perhaps he will share it. I think he is unwilling to defend his claim and that’s why he avoids actually making that argument.
Where does it say that in the Bible? That the Bible must be true, every single word, for Christianity to be true. Is it not possible some and not all was inspired? Or do you rule that out?
After all, if you actually look at the history of what we call the bible there seems to be a little bit of politics in there ladies and gentlemen.
Ah, but if you gave Judas money knowing he was going to buy a field. Or er, wait, that does not really work now does it.
quote:
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(Pro 30:5)
and
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2Ti 3:16)
and
So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.
(Heb 6:17-18)
and
in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
(Tit 1:2)
and
for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the (gospel) good news that was preached to you.
(1Pe 1:24-25)
end quote:
peace
fifth,
No, I simply look at the Bible, observe the errors and contradictions, and conclude that it is not the inerrant word of an omniGod.
Actually I’m making just two arguments, in this context.
First:
Observation one: FFM claims his bible is inerrant
Observation two through N: The bible contains dozens of contradictions
Conclusion: The bible is not inerrant and FFM’s claim is soundly refuted
Second:
Observation one: The bible clearly sanctions slavery in a number of passages
Observation two: The bible never explicitly condemns slavery
Observation three: FFM has trivialized the brutality that humans have experienced by disparaging slavery as “temporary and local.”
Conclusion: FFM’s religion causes him to espouse vile views.
fifthmonarchyman appears to have difficulty distinguishing between not explicitly assuming that the bible is true and explicitly assuming that it is false.
1) You still haven’t answered my question. Could you recognize inerrancy if you saw it?
2) What I do is recognize that I can be mistaken and God can’t and conclude that his Word is with out error and any errors and contradictions I see are my fault and not his?
This seems to be the more reasonable conclusion for a finite error prone individual to reach when evaluating the words of an “omni God”.
Your approach seems to amount to “putting God in the dock”,
Do you have the authority to do this?
Peace
No,
it’s not about you explicitly assuming that it is false It’s about you explicitly assuming that it’s possible for it to be false.
If it’s possible that God’s Word is false then Christianity is explicitly false by definition
peace
again.
Contradictions are not an argument against inererancy they are an argument against clarity.
electrons are points
electrons are waves
These two statements are contradictory but they are not in error. When you take them together however with out elucidation they are unclear
By the same token If the bible is contradictory it cannot “clearly” sanction anything that includes slavery.
why is it so difficult for you to understand this?
peace
1) The New Testament says that Herod ordered the Massacre of the Innocents at the time of the birth of Jesus.
2) Herod died before Jesus was born.
So much for the inererancy of the Bible.
When was Jesus born? When did Herod die?
How do you know these things?
peace
Not necessarily, fifth. It could be either or both. It does make one wonder why an omniscient being seems incapable of clarity in the written word when He is capable of making things so clear with revelation.
So actually considering the possibility of Christianity being wrong is out of the question.
That explains FMM all too well.
Glen Davidson
I’m not sure what you mean
Please explain and provide examples
peace
Of course it’s out of the question. This should not be news to you.
If the Christian God did not exist any and all knowledge would be impossible.
If you disagree tell me how you know stuff.
On second thought lets not go down that road again. It only leads to frustration on the part of the non-christian.
peace
I think the written word is perfectly clear but then again I have the benefit of the Holy Spirit to act as my guide.
For that completely undeserved grace I am extremely and eternally grateful
as for the clarity that a rebel will see
quote:
So the Lord’s word to them will sound like meaningless gibberish,senseless babbling,a syllable here, a syllable there. As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,and be injured, ensnared, and captured.
Isa28:13 Net
end quote:
peace
And bullshit from you.
If you could honestly discuss things that would be a completely different matter. But no, it’s not a surprise that your basis for discussion is the opposite of honest consideration of such issues. I only posted about it again because you shouldn’t get away with your BS just because it’s old and tiresome.
Glen Davidson
Actually, there’s a much simpler and straight-forward understanding that most folk who call themselves “Christians” accept: the bible is not the word of some omni-deity. It is merely the work of some (many) men who felt inspired to write about what they felt about their god.
As such, to most Christians, the bible is simply a collection of guiding stories. Whether they are perfectly accurate and/or “inerrant” is irrelevant in that case; it simply becomes a useful basis for inspiration and spiritual grounding.
There is vast a difference between
1) a person believing a that God’s word is inerrant
and
2) God’s word being inerrant
You don’t have to believe that God’s word is inerrant to be a Christian but God’s word has to be inerrant for Christianity to be true.
Did you catch that?
peace
“Guiding stories” can’t save you.
quote:
the sacred writings……… which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus…………. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2Ti 3:15b-16)
and
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(Pro 30:5)
end quote:
nuff said
peace
A sane person might draw an obvious conclusion from the fact that the bible is not inerrant.
Needless to say I disagree. There’s nothing either logical or inherent that suggests that God’s word has to be inerrant for Christianity to be true. The one does not follow from the other.
There’s nothing in either of those passages that support your claim that “guiding stories can’t save you.” In fact, there’s nothing in the bible to suggest such in any way.
Ironically RT suggests the bible can’t save anyone anyway; salvation can only be granted by God directly. So really, whether the bible is nothing but made up absurd stories should make no difference to you, FMM; it can offer nothing towards salvation one way or the other.
A good percentage of the world ignores the love thy neighbor part and concentrates on the obsessive-compulsive bits, the niggly rules. Lots of people have been murdered by rule followers, or at least by people obsessed with making other people follow the rules.
keiths:
fifth:
The issue never arises, because the Bible fails the inerrancy test: it contains errors.
Have you applied that reasoning to the Quran? If so, why aren’t you a Muslim? After all, any problems you see with the Quran are your fault, not God’s.
As–salaam alaikum.
The Bible is Gods word salvation is granted by God directly by his Word.
quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(Joh 1:1-4)
end Quote:
As far as RT goes
quote:
The rule of this knowledge, faith, and obedience, concerning the worship and service of God, and all other Christian duties, is not mans inventions, opinions, devices, laws, constitutions, or traditions unwritten whatsoever, but only the word of God contained in the Canonical Scriptures. In this written Word God has plainly revealed whatsoever He has thought needful for us to know, believe, and acknowledge, touching the nature and office of Christ, in whom all the promises are Yea and Amen to the praise of God.
1644 LBCF
and
Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world,
to commit the same wholly unto writing;…………which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;……………. those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.
WCF
end quote:
way way way more than nuff said
peace
Yes of course I have, and to the book of Mormon as well for that matter.
When examining a worldview you must do so on it’s own terms.
Because the Quran specifically asks that I judge the truth of this later writing by what is written in the Christian Bible.
When I do so I find that the Quran fails that test.
peace
Nope:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them”—Ephesians 2:8-10.
So reading or hearing “God’s word” can’t do squat – it’s still up to God to grant Grace in the first place for the Word to have any meaning.
https://www.monergism.com/works-grace-and-salvation
God’s grants faith through his word
quote:
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
(Rom 10:17)
end quote:
Or as said in a confession
quote;
That faith is the gift of God wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God, whereby they come to see, know, and believe the truth of the Scriptures, and not only so, but the excellency of them above all other writing and things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in His attributes, the excellency of Christ in His nature and offices, and the power of the fullness of the Spirit in His workings and operations; and thereupon are enabled to cast the weight of their souls upon this truth thus believed.
1644 LBCF
end quote:
peace
But Christ didn’t write the Bible, did he?
Biblical scholars establish the date of Jesus’ birth and base the calendar on it. Historians and archaeologists, using multiple sources of evidence establish that Herod died in 4 BCE. Biblical scholars changed the date of Jesus’ birth to be 4 BCE, to correspond with historic evidence of Herod’s death.
Fair enough. I can accept this as a possibility. After all, the bible doesn’t actually name the date of his birth, only the historic events surrounding his birth.
But the bible says that he was born where he was because Mary and Joseph had to travel to Bethleham due to the imposed census. A census that is known to have taken place in 6 CE.
So The bible is saying that Jesus was born in 6 CE (census date) or 4 BCE (Herod’s death), a difference of one decade. But, it is inerrant.
Who wrote this?
Of course he did.
Christ is God (John 1:1) and the scripture is God Breathed (2 Tim 3:16)
peace
[FMM]
🙂
Faith may come through hearing the Word, but hearing the word (and by association having “faith”) is irrelevant to salvation. That alone is bestowed by God. So Paul can say anything he wants; God decides who is saved and who isn’t and has decided such from the get go.
“Let us remind ourselves once more that grace means “unmerited, undeserved favor.” ”
Welcome to your future in slavery…
Just some men who are revered by folks like me.
We Christians at times appeal to confessions of faith to settle questions of what has been historically taught by our traditions
Peace
That sounds not very different from just making stuff up, or deciding on a whim.
Christ wrote the Bible because the Bible says Christ wrote the Bible?
How do you know that a particular census occurred in 6 CE.
Or conversely
How do you know that a particular census that occurred is 6 CE is the one that Luke refers to?
What makes you think “Biblical Scholars” have the authority to establish the date of Jesus birth?
peace
I thought you said the Bible was/is inerrant.
No Christ wrote the Bible because Christ is God and God wrote the Bible.
here is the syllogism
Premise one) Scripture is written by God
Premise two) Jesus is God
Conclusion) Scripture is written by Jesus
peace
I did
Your point is?
Do you think that the Bible mentions the date of the census or of Jesus birth?
peace
Come now, Christians are a disparate group. There are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant with many sub-sects and all with their own interpretations and different angel-on-pinhead counts. Surely you can’t speak for all Christians!
As I think the Bible is an eclectic collection of sundry authors, none of whom appeared to have history as a first concern, it would not surprise me to learn that such a detail was omitted
It’s only evidence to folks who are appealing to our traditions in an effort to try and make a point, like Robin was.
It works like this
If I said that evolutionary biologists teach this or that, you could appeal to a commonly accepted document written by well respected evolutionary biologists to dispute my contention
peace