By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. – Isaiah 45:23-24
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. – John 1:9
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’ – John 1:29
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. – John 3:17
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. – John 6:51
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. – John 12:32
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. – John 12:47
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. – Romans 3:23-24
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. – Romans 11:32
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. – 1 Corinthians 15:22
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Philippians 2:10-11
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. – 1 Timothy 2:5-6
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. – Titus 2:11
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. – Hebrews 2:9
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. – 1 John 2:2
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned … But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. – Romans 5:12-19
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. – 2 Corinthians 5:14-19
Sorry, Atheists, but you win!
Mung, change your password. I think Batshit^77 may have hacked you.
Bonus: ASSF.
Is that another self contained argument?
Lest Patrick think that these are quotes from “The Christian God” and therefore not worthy of merit, these quotes are from books of the Bible written by Jews. (Not that I want to turn this good news into a debate about how ignorant Patrick is of who wrote the texts found on our modern Bible.)
Bad news for Mung:
“He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.”(Deuteronomy 23:1)
Barry took away your keys.
Perhaps atheists have no actual choice in the matter. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate irony?
I’m not a Jew. My balls [or lack thereof] are not what determines my inclusion/exclusion. Take heart, Richardthughes! It’s good news for you too!
Mung,
No. It would be Calvinism.
Mung,
Lulz. Transcendent morality … That changes through time.
Children of a lesser god.
Patrick indicated that if faced with objective empirical evidence he would change his mind. Do you say he is lying?
Mung, you are a bit late.
Christianity no longer exists.
We know this, because people who claim to be Christian are backing Donald Trump in the presidential election.
And atheism is irrelevant. So why be an atheist?
Of the quotes in the OP which one do you, as an atheist, like most?
Of the quotes in the OP which one do you, as an atheist, like least?
Of the quotes in the OP which one do you, as an atheist, think most exemplifies “The Christian God”?
Of the quotes in the OP which one do you, as an atheist, think least exemplifies “The Christian God”?
In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
(1Jn 4:9-11)
and
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have………. peace………. with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 5:1)
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(Heb 8:10-13)
This is fun
Peace
one more
He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of ………………peace.
(Heb 7:2)
and
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making……….. peace…………. by the blood of his cross.
(Col 1:19-20)
Cool stories. How do we know any of it is true?
Or who wrote it?
In another thread you said that Jesus wrote the bible. Did he write these bits too? How?
Mung, FMM, does that include the women and children that god ordered butchered without exception?
The only way you can know anything is true ——revelation.
you “knew” that was coming didn’t you
peace
The answer is yes. No one misses out on God’s grace unless they do so voluntarily.
quote:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(Joh 3:16)
end quote:
whoever means whoever
peace
So did they miss out on it? Or was being killed something of a distraction?
And out of interest, who if they believed in god would voluntarily miss out on it’s grace? Who would make such a decision?
And what consequences does that have for them? Did they know about those consequences at the time, those people?
It’s been revealed to me it’s all just stories made up by people doing they best the could to interpret the world and it’s origin.
Turns out we can discard all of that crap and just carry on like it never existed. And guess what, many people have! And the world is a better place for it.
FMM is apparently unaware that I have him on ignore. I’m sorry him and phoodoo are too stupid and deluded for me. It’s true and it needed to be said.
Guano this comment please.
Off the top of my head I’d say everyone here
You don’t say, revealed to you by who exactly? How do you know you can trust the revealer ?
I don’t know I’ve never met them?
If you don’t have some idea of the consequences it can’t very well be a voluntary choice now can it.
Do you know the consequences of your willful rejection of God’s grace OMagain?
peace
Interesting. Ellen G. White, the “prophetess” of the SDA church, wrote an amazing volume of uninteresting and repetitive crap too. This is generally attributed to her having taken a rock to the head as a child, triggering temporal lobe epilepsy and the often associated hypergraphia.
Do we have a medical history on this author?
No I’m vaguely aware of that
I just think it a better policy to answer a question if I can and I have time
What you do with that is up to you.
On a related side note do you all think someone can be held responsible for missing a valuable piece of information if they deliberately choose to ignore the one who offered it to them for some reason?
peace
yes
quote:
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
(Rev 1:17-18)
end quote:
peace
All we have to go on is the description given in the bible. So that’s a poor excuse. I’m quite sure you have an opinion regardless of the fact you’ve never met the Canaanites.
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” Leviticus
Do you think the Bible is historically accurate? Would you trust any description given in the Bible? Do you think any of this ever happened at all?
You do know that many non-believing scholars think this was all made up hundreds of years after the events were claimed to have happened?
Are you saying you believe these scholars are wrong?
Do you think your interpretation of the “description given in the Bible” should be given more weight than archeological evidence from the time?
My opinion is that the Canaanites had plenty of opportunity to respond to God’s grace in the hundreds of years that transpired before the command I also think they were anything but innocent peaceful victims protecting their children
quote:
“The most surprising feature of all in the final analysis of the material is that the several thousands of small bone fragments are almost exclusively [over 90 percent] human … There can be little doubt that a major concern of the ritual at the Amman airport temple was the burning of human bodies.”1 Hennessey’s general impression was that the bones represented an “immature group.” One was of a youth 14 to 18 years of age.
end quote:
I also think any “slaughter” they experienced at the hands of an out numbered small tribe of shepherds on foot with stone weapons was not as large and absolute and one sided as you might think.
Certainty not as large and one sided a slaughter as you would find with a drone attack on an afghan village in 2016 for example.
Again these are just my opinions
peace
The children were innocent however, right?
So human sacrifice (wrong) is evened out by wiping them out, down to the children (wrong). Looks like somebody never got told two wrongs don’t make a right!
no one is innocent.
Ever hear of original sin?
peace
So there are some levels of acceptable slaughter, if the sides are more evenly matched? Presumably the winner can then righteously slay the children of the vanquished.
It’s a shame I don’t believe because I’d be praying right now!
How do you know anyone was ever wiped out?
peace
That it takes religion to make a good person do evil has rarely been demonstrated more starkly then here.
Revelation.
There are no good people sans the grace of God.
It does not take religion to show you that.All it takes is to watch the evening news.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/feb/14/environment.highereducation
peace
Again how do you know you can trust the revealer?
peace
no, But there is selective outrage against a book when people are dying today at a much greater scale and you do nothing to prevent it.
If a enemy combatant who was also a nursing mother was killed in battle in ancient times her child died as part of the package.
usually.
Then as now children often die as a result of their being too close to the the intended target
Do you have any evidence that any children died as the result of the command you speak of?
You do know that these same people are described as alive and kicking and raiding the villages of Israel just a few chapters later in the text don’t you?
then there is this from a couple hundred years later
quote:
And they defeated the remnant of the Amalekites who had escaped, and they have lived there to this day.
(1Ch 4:43)
end quote:
peace
I know, right? When Patrick and keiths decide to cherry pick Bible verses why do they never seem to pick these? Is it because they don’t think these verses are not from/about “the Christian God” while the ones they pick are? What criteria are they using?
And yet you don’t find Jews running all around the world killing every homosexual they can lay hands on. Not that the actual facts matter. Patrick already admitted that the facts didn’t matter wrt slavery.
What I think they would say is that these “good” verses demonstrate that the bible is a contradictory mess and therefore not clear
Except when it’s is saying things that they take to be evil then it’s apparently clear as a bell.
I think the argument goes like this
Premise one) the Bible is contradictory
Premise two) the Bible clearly condones evil
conclusion) The moon is made of swiss cheese and God is a poopy head nanny nanny boo boo
😉
peace
Yes. It is a load of crap. Nobody (or vindictive God) can convince me that a baby is not innocent. What it was definitely a good strategy to fill church coffers.
So, you are admitting that the words in the bible are replete with errors. God to know.
Hi Mungy. You haven’t been berating me about subjective morality at UD lately. I miss it.
What facts are you talking about? The facts that the bible (God) calls for the killing of homosexuals, adulterers, women who aren’t virgins on their wedding nights? The fact that the bible (God) provides instructions on how to treat your skaves? The fact that the bible (God) says that you are not to be punished for beating your slave to within an inch of his life as long as he can get up the next day?
This is why I find those smug claims by theists that only with God can you have objective morality so annoying. This discussion shows that many of those same theists have a tenuous grasp of morality at best.
FMM claims above that its ok to murder children since children aren’t innocent if their parents, or long deceased ancestors did something to offend God. WLCraig in a similar line of argument says its not immoral to kill children since they’ll just be going to heaven.
Most atheists would say, and I would hope that most theists would say, that murdering children and babies is fundamentally immoral. You shouldnt do it even if your Boss, your Commanding Officer, your Leader, or God tells you to do it. But many theists dont think this way. They think whatever God tells you to do is moral. And since God rarely speaks to people directly its only a matter of time before some charismatic leader comes along who speaks for God and tells his followers who its ok to kill for God. It doesnt matter that most theists would ignore the leader- that they’d listen to the ‘better angels of their nature’. It only takes a handful of people to commit an atrocity.
But it doesnt matter of no one listens to the call to murder. Its doesnt matter if the leader never appears. The very fact that so many Christians would say that there exist conditions in which its ok to murder children – that in fact not murdering them would be immoral- simply because one more powerful than you has ordered you to do it, undermines the very notion of morality.
The fact you’re trying to equate this with ‘collateral damage’ says a great deal about the value of your alleged regenerate morality.
The fact is – children were specific targets….
I’m sure they were butchered in a neighbourly fashion.