I recently found Patrick Matthew , some 20 years before, had some important conclusions about how natural selection can lead to new species. Darwin agreed he had come to like conclusions, on main points, as he did. This is not known well and indeed they emphasis wAllace as a co discoverer of evolution but say nothing about Matthew.
This brings up a good YEC creationist point.
Matthew did do just what darwin did. he observed the seeming hand of selection controling survival/reproduction of individuals and so new environments bring new controls and so new species.
this is fine for creationism. its minor changes in types/kinds of biology. Yet matthew, a little, and darwin, a great deal, then went on to extrapolate from this the entire creation of biology. Its entire complexity and diversity as from selection on traits. Yet Matthew did no more investigation then his idea of selection. So it follows the both men ‘s conclusions on evolutions story in biology are just lines of reasoning from simple raw data points.
Both desperately embrace the fossil record, geology concepts for deposition, to make thier lines of reasoning.
I say Matthew’s existence in these matters proves Darwins idea was mostly lines of reasoning from a minor trivial observation of selections ability to determine success in creatures survival.
So evolutionism really is based on a real selection truth and then is wild extrapolation.
Micro does not equal Macro after all. Macro needs to cross boundaries beyond selection on traits. It needs these mutations desperately and thats the great error in the lines of reasoning.
Young Earth Creationism is false in a number of respects.
First, it is false in its claim that the universe is only 6000 years old.
Second, it is false in it’s claim that the earth is only 6000 years old.
Third, it is false in it’s claims about the history of life on earth and is antithetical to the claims of intelligent design.
YECism demands that God had no role after the Fall. Yet many species exist today which did not exist on Noah’s Ark. according to YEC’s this can only have come about by Godless evolution. Yet YEC’s deny evolution.
At this point I think he should walk away and claim victory.
Except that’s not true. When the animals got off the ark they had to mutate and evolve at a furious rate to populate the earth with all the species we currently see.
So your claim is undone by another of your claims. But consilience has never been a concern of YECs.
Sorry. Cross post.
Addition by subtraction. The faster you subtract the more you get.
not my thread but your right about post fall biological change demanding mechanism. Evolutionism is impossible but other options are there.
I see innate triggers, after passing thresholds, creating biology change from the glory of the dna ability in biology.
peoples looks prove biology change happened but doesn’t prove evolution..
Indeed the OP was not about the age of the universe or the age of the earth. But if I was a Young Earth Creationist I would want to believe that those two issues, above all others, were settled.
It’s not as if a Young Earth Creationist cannot reject the claim that the earth is flat. But if I were a Young Earth Creationist I would not see the benefit of claiming that the earth is flat while also not having an argument to support my claim about the age of the earth.
Relative to the glory of biology and KINDS its minor. the diversity would be great but minor. so if after the flood, a few centuries later, there was 5000species of horses it would be different types of horses but still horses. Although i don’t think the horse type was on the ark.
Does anyone here who is not a Young Earth Creationist deny that evolution “within kinds” is possible?
If evolution within kinds is possible, how is evolution impossible?
+Off thread but again its about mechanism. Important bio change doesn’t come from mere selection.
Numbers?
Numbers?
Yes, you know, back of the envelope calculations that can be used as a sanity check.
For example:
Year 1 after Ark lands: 10,000 species get off the ark
Year 2: There are now 10,100 species
Year 2000: There are now 10,000,000 species
In your example:
Year 1: One horse species – two horses.
Year 400: 5000 horse species – ? horses.
How many horses were there in year 100 after Ark landing for example? How many horse species in year 100?
Robert Byers,
Numbers!
Not quite following the OP.
Here is Patrick Matthew’s excerpt in On Naval Timber and Arboriculture generally considered (including by Darwin) to be a proposition predating Darwin’s theory of evolution. Where does he “prove natural selection is just a line of reasoning in its conclusions”?
What is a species?
I’m, saying a few centuries after the flood. before the great fossilization event, there wewre hundreds/thousands of types of horses.
The mechanism for it must be based on innate triggers .
The kids/grand kids could be a different type of horse. Just like with people. The parents being brown and then they and their kids became white.
just troggers.
His discovery etc of selection was based on observatiion.
So like darwin it was a observation in real life of real options for change within types of biology.
THEN he and dArwin extrapolated from this a origin for biology in all its ways.
So Matthew demonstrates the same line of reasoning unrelated to actual evidence.
So natural selection is a fair observation but the rest is unfair speculation.
they both did with the same flaw of reasoning.
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers!
Why do you say that?
What’s that then? Was that mentioned in the bible?
One needs a mechanism for creatures and man to change our biology. so it must be innate triggers, after passing thresholds, deaking with genetics.
There was great post flood fossilization, above the K-Pg line, and this could only come from a single/or fast few events in a few days or weeks.
What sort of mechanism does God require?
What’s that then? I don’t remember reading about that in the bible. The event that created that line, why does not not merit a mention?
What thresholds? Can we trigger that kind of hyper speed speciation directly? How? If not, how do you know there are such mechanisms at all other then needing them for your story to be possible?
The k-pg line is the flood year line. Its in the bible.
Well if a threshold is passed the biology in bodies , to survive, will trigger its genetics and then biological change can happen.
When a woman gets pregnant her body is triggered to react throughtout the pregnancy. Thresholds are being crossed for the nine months.
Something like that.