By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. – Isaiah 45:23-24
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. – John 1:9
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’ – John 1:29
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. – John 3:17
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. – John 6:51
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. – John 12:32
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. – John 12:47
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. – Romans 3:23-24
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. – Romans 11:32
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. – 1 Corinthians 15:22
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Philippians 2:10-11
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. – 1 Timothy 2:5-6
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. – Titus 2:11
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. – Hebrews 2:9
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. – 1 John 2:2
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned … But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. – Romans 5:12-19
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. – 2 Corinthians 5:14-19
Sorry, Atheists, but you win!
But you assert “Scripture is written by God” when it is clearly written by people, different people at different times.
Or I could check the facts for myself. It’s still possible to go out and conduct field experiments, make observations, perform experiments.
As I think that the bible was written to Christians many of whom did not use BCE and CE as a means of marking time
And as precise dates of events that happened in the ancient world are notoriously hard to pin down and often corrected when new information is discovered.
it would not surprise me to learn that such a detail was missing either.
So there you go we agree about something 😉
peace
There is also some research that backs that up
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44905911/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/bibles-authors-decoded-computer/#.V7Iwh3UrLJ8
I guess non-priestly was Jesus too. So it all works out! It’s not like “Scripture is written by Jesus” is going to change because of that, or anything at all really!
I found these dates in five minutes of Google (although I already knew the general chronology).
I didn’t say that the biblical scholars had the authority. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.
But the bible clearly says that Jesus was born in Herod’s time, during a major census. Herod’s life is well documented, with archaelogical evidence to support it. Censuses during that time were also well documented. The fact remains that the only census that could be even remotely related to the account in the bible was conducted ten years after Herod’s death.
Hmmm. First Herod acting from the grave. Then Lazarus. And then Jesus. Maybe those 2000 year old middle-easterners we’re dealing with the beginnings of a zombie apocalypse.
field experiments and observations to determine what evolutionary biologists teach.
Is that like Jane Goodall and the gorillas? 😉
Peace
Why do you think that Scripture could not be written by God and by different people?
You know the Holy Spirit working through different individuals using their experiences and proclivities to express his message.
That is sort of what I would expect from a God who’s main claim to fame is an incarnation
peace
No. It’s like Jane Goodall and chimps. You are thinking of Diane Fossey.
People write stuff all the time (at least they did before SMS, email and blogging) but gods not so much.
I rather think imagination is a powerful thing.
I’m unpersuaded by the whole idea of gods so I can’t help you there, I’m sorry.
check it out
really?
check it out
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/11/01/Once-More-Quiriniuss-Census.aspx#Article
peace
Touche 😉
peace
So, since the Norse and Homeric Gods were also incarnated, we should take their stories more seriously than one who only could incarnate one? Good to know.
That is our entire difference in a nutshell.
FYI You’d be persuaded if you knew him like I do.
peace
Oh my
Apparently you don’t understand Christian incarnation 😉
peace
I’m definitely not into virgin fucking pigeons. Not my thing really
Hmm. Articles from a web site named biblicalarchaeology.org. I wouldn’t expect any biased views there.
Please enlighten me. I always thought it was about God taking on human form. Something like Odin, Zeus, Thor, Orion, Neotune, etc. taking in human form. Am I missing something?
1) we are all biased
2) you said you accepted the opinion of Biblical scholars on these things
3) Reactive devaluation is a sign of your own cognitive bias in these matters
check it out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_devaluation
peace
uh yes
quote:
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
end quote:
from here
http://www.theopedia.com/chalcedonian-creed
also check this out
http://www.reasons.org/articles/thinking-about-the-incarnation-the-divine-word-became-flesh
once you are done there we can begin to discuss. There is lots more where that came from
peace
I guess. It’s not a problem for me. I’m sure I’ve pointed out before that I have no objection to others holding beliefs that differ from mine.
Well, if God wants to talk to me – or take whatever approach he thinks (or knows – if he’s really God) will work – who knows? Which God are you recommending, BTW?
neither do I.
See still more things we agree on 😉
he already does that
quote:
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
(Rom 1:19-20)
end quote:
I’m not recommending any god.
God is using me to make an appeal though me and I implore you on behalf of Christ to accept it.
quote:
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(2Co 5:20)
end quote:
What you do with that appeal is totally up to you, like I said I have no objection to others holding beliefs that differ from mine
peace
So, what you are saying, is that Jesus has a better pedigree than Man of War, or Secretariate.
Have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
But congratulations on the horse sex joke (I think).
peace
Only a fundamentalist Christian would equate the pedigree of thoroughbred horses with horse sex. As Gordon (KairosFocus) Mullings would say, “That speaks volumes”.
Ok
But congratulations on the pedigree of thoroughbred horses joke (I think).
By the way
What does this possibly have to do with the incarnation?
peace
What is the point of all the bible quotes ?
Are they them meant to tell us anything ?
I’m still trying to figure out how the incarnation of Jesus (a God in human form) is any different than Zeus, Thor, Odin, Hera, Poseiden, Neptune, etc. Gods incarnated in human form. By all legend (myth, saga) the human form was not their only option.
fifth:
keiths:
fifth:
That’s just your unregenerate human misunderstanding of the Quran. Those with spiritual gifts know better.
Your approach seems to amount to “putting Allah in the dock”.
Do you have the authority to do this?
Remember, you can be mistaken. Allah cannot. The Quran is Allah’s word. Any problems you see with it are your fault and not his.
It’s your own logic, fifth.
Examples that a contradiction between statements could mean one statement is in error?
I doubt that is actually a thing anyone believes, now swans were a thing
You guys probabaly haven’t seen some of the pigeons I’ve seen.
What tests would you perform to convince yourself that my cat is or is not God?
If you prayed to my cat and your prayer was answered, would that prove to you my cat is God? If you prayed to my cat and your prayer was not answered, would that prove to you my cat is not God?
Just what sort of “objective empirical evidence” does it take to convince a skeptic?
I just love how you all attack the person, not the ideas!
But I think you’re wrong anyways. Christianity makes claims about Jesus Christ.
Take for example:
He was born.
He was crucified.
He died.
He was raised from the dead.
If any of these are false, Christianity is false.
My wager is that fifth would agree with me, contra your claim.
That does not sound like good news for atheists. 🙂
Do you know any sane people here?
Which Bible?
Yes, he thinks it does give the dates.
Doh!
And that’s not the same as saying they had no concern for historical facts or details, is it.
Is that a rhetorical question?
Please share with us your understanding of, and the basis for your knowledge of, Islamic teaching on regeneration. If you can.
A sane person might think so.
Speaking of non-contradiction in the Bible, I recently read the following:
Surely that cannot be correct! Right Patrick? Right keiths? Right Glen? You can surely demonstrate otherwise. Please try.
Fiction can be self consistent.
You’ve just demonstrated the truth of my statement. There are three ways to approach reading your bible:
1) Explicitly assume that it is true
2) Explicitly assume that it is false
3) Make no assumptions and determine based on the evidence if it is more likely true or false
You apparently find it impossible to distinguish between 2 and 3.
Park your priors at the door. You never know what you might learn.
Not when both contradictory statements are clearly stated, as is the case for what Judas did with his money, for example.
That’s a poor analogy. Electrons are electrons. How we model them depends on the circumstances. Physicists do not model them in an internally contradictory fashion.
Your bible, on the other hand, makes clearly contradictory statements about the same event.
Of course it does. The passages quoted in the original post of this thread are quite clear.
You’ve claimed this in the past. You’ve never supported your claim with any argument or evidence. Got any?
How do you know this? Oh, of course, your bible says so.
If your god actually existed it would convince more people if it didn’t communicate through someone who disparages slavery as “temporary and local”. That doesn’t strike most people as a moral position.
fifthmonarchyman also claims that the bible is inerrant, which you dispute. He further claims that the truth of Christianity depends on that inerrancy. How are two Christians to resolve such a dispute?
This illustrates why I left “Christianity” and why I no longer use the term to describe myself; I just don’t want to be confused for someone who holds such a view.
In my view, “Christianity” has zero to do with Jesus’ (or any god’s for that matter) literal existence, death, resurrection, being denied three times, or walking on water. The value (and by association, the “Truth”) of Christianity comes from the principles/teachings on how to live a better life among other humans. Period. The stories/parables/metaphors/allegories/analogies/epic poetry used to get these principles/teachings across are useful for evoking emotional responses, but taken literally simply corrupt the intent (imho). It is no different than trying to take The Illiad, Sigurd and Gudrun, Valuspa, or Beowulf literally. Such undertakings, (again, imho) simply miss the point, but more so act to undermine the greater value of such works.
In other words, why should it matter at all whether the events in the bible actually occurred for the principles/teachings to have value for life guidance? Are Aesop’s fables or Mark Twain’s stories of no value simply because they are made up?
I certainly don’t think so.