Evidence for the Resurrection: Why reasonable people might differ, and why believers aren’t crazy

Easter is approaching, but skeptic John Loftus doesn’t believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. What’s more, he thinks you’re delusional if you do. I happen to believe in the Resurrection, but I freely admit that I might be mistaken. I think Loftus is wrong, and his case against the Resurrection is statistically flawed; however, I don’t think he’s delusional. In today’s post, I’d like to summarize the key issues at stake here, before going on to explain why I think reasonable people might disagree on the weight of the evidence for the Resurrection.

The following quotes convey the tenor of Loftus’ views on the evidence for the Resurrection:

What we have at best are second-hand testimonies filtered through the gospel writers. With the possible exception of Paul who claimed to have experienced the resurrected Jesus in what is surely a visionary experience (so we read in Acts 26:19, cf. II Cor. 12:1-6; Rev. 1:10-3:21–although he didn’t actually see Jesus, Acts 9:4-8; 22:7-11; 26:13-14), everything we’re told comes from someone who was not an eyewitness. This is hearsay evidence, at best. [Here.]

The Jews of Jesus’ day believed in Yahweh and that he does miracles, and they knew their Old Testament prophecies, and yet the overwhelming numbers of them did not believe Jesus was raised from the dead by Yahweh. So Christianity didn’t take root in the Jewish homeland but had to reach out to the Greco-Roman world for converts. Why should we believe if they were there and didn’t? [Here.]

…[F]or [Christian apologist Mike] Licona to think he can defend the resurrection of Jesus historically is delusional on a grand scale.[Here.]

My natural explanation is that the early disciples were visionaries, that is, they believed God was speaking to them in dreams, trances, and thoughts that burst into their heads throughout the day. Having their hopes utterly dashed upon the crucifixion of Jesus they began having visions that Jesus arose from the dead. [Here.]

My natural explanation [additionally] requires … one liar for Jesus, and I think this liar is the author of Mark, the first gospel. He invented the empty tomb sequence. That’s it. [Here.]

Loftus is not a dogmatic skeptic; he allows that he can imagine evidence which would convince him that Christianity is true. However, it is his contention that the evidence of the New Testament falls far short of this standard. The problem, to put it briefly, is that evidence for the authenticity of a second-hand report of a miracle does not constitute evidence that the miraculous event described in the report actually occurred. This evidential gap is known as Lessing’s ugly broad ditch, after the 18th century German critic, Gotthold Lessing (1729-1781), who first pointed it out.

In this post, I will not be attempting to demonstrate that the Resurrection actually occurred. Rather, my aim will be to outline the process of reasoning whereby someone might conclude that it probably occurred, while acknowledging that he/she may be wrong. I’ll also endeavor to explain how another person, following the same procedure as the tentative believer, might arrive at a contrary conclusion, which would make it irrational for him/her to espouse a belief in the Resurrection.

The key facts required to establish the Resurrection

Before I begin, I’m going to make a short list of key facts, whose truth needs to be established by anyone mounting a serious case for the Resurrection.

Key facts:
1. The man known as Jesus Christ was a real person, who lived in 1st-century Palestine.
2. Jesus was crucified and died.
3. Jesus’ disciples collectively saw a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus, after his death.
N.B. By a “non-ghostly” apparition, I mean: a multi-sensory [i.e. visual, auditory and possibly tactile] apparition, which led the disciples to believe Jesus was alive again. I don’t mean that Jesus necessarily ate fish, or had a gaping hole in his side: many Biblical scholars now think that these details may have been added to the Gospels of Luke and John for polemical reasons. Are they right? I don’t know.

Readers will note that none of the key facts listed above makes any mention of the empty tomb. My reason for this omission is that St. Paul’s account in 1 Corinthians 15, which is the only eyewitness report, makes no explicit mention of Jesus’ empty tomb, although it seems to imply this fact when it says that Jesus was buried and raised. I won’t be relying on the Gospel accounts here, as they are probably not eyewitness accounts: most scholars date them to between 70 and 110 A.D. By the same token, I won’t be relying on the accounts of St. Paul’s encounter with Jesus in the Acts of the Apostles, which some scholars date as late as 110-140 A.D. St. Paul simply says of his experience: “last of all he appeared to me also.” That makes him an eyewitness.

It will be apparent to readers who are familiar with debates regarding the resurrection that my list of “key facts” is more modest than Dr. Willam Lane Craig’s list of minimal facts which he frequently invokes when he is debating the subject. Craig assumes that Jesus was buried in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea, and that the following Sunday, his tomb was found empty by a group of women followers of Jesus. I make neither of these assumptions, although I happen to think he is right on both. For those who are inclined to doubt, Dr. Craig’s article, The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus, is well worth reading.

Two types of skepticism

I propose to distinguish between two kinds of skepticism: Type A and Type B. Type A skepticism casts doubt on people’s claims to have had an extraordinary experience, while Type B skepticism questions whether a miraculous explanation of this extraordinary experience is the best one. In the case of the Resurrection, Type A skepticism seeks to undermine one or more of the key facts listed above, whereas Type B skepticism doesn’t question the key facts, but looks for a non-miraculous explanation of those key facts.

Carl Sagan’s maxim that “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs” is often quoted when the subject of miracles comes up. But we must be careful not to confuse extraordinary claims with extraordinary experiences: the former relate to objectively real occurrences, while the latter relate to subjective experiences. There is nothing improbable about someone’s having an extraordinary experience. People have bizarre experiences quite often: most of us have had one, or know someone who has had one. However, extraordinary occurrences are by definition rare: their prior probability is very, very low.

The distinction I have made above is a vital one. The key facts listed above imply that Jesus’ disciples had an extraordinary experience, but as we’ve seen, there’s nothing improbable about that.

On the other hand, the prior probability of an actual extraordinary occurrence (such as the Resurrection) is extremely low. So even if we can show that Jesus’ disciples had an extraordinary experience which persuaded them that he had risen again, one still needs to show that the posterior probability of all proposed non-miraculous explanations of this experience is less than the posterior probability of a miracle, given this extraordinary experience, before one is permitted to conclude that the miraculous explanation is warranted. And even then, one is still not home free, because it makes no sense to posit a miracle unless one has independent grounds for believing that there is a God, or at the very least, that there is a small but significant likelihood that God exists.

To sum up, in order for belief in Jesus’ Resurrection to be reasonable, what one has to show is that:
(i) the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations listed below is less than 50%; and
(ii) given the key facts listed above, and given also that there is a reasonable likelihood that a supernatural Deity exists Who is at least able to resurrect a dead human being, if He chooses to do so, then the total [posterior] probability of the various Type B skeptical explanations listed below is far less than the posterior probability that Jesus was miraculously raised.

What’s wrong with Loftus’ argument, in a nutshell

Basically, there are two errors in John Loftus’ case against the Resurrection: first, he overlooks the fact that the probabilities of the various Type B skeptical explanations are posterior probabilities, rather than prior probabilities; and second, he thinks that because the prior probability of a resurrection is very small, any Type A skeptical explanation whose prior probability is greater than that of the Resurrection of Jesus is a more likely explanation of whatever took place. The following excerpt from a 2012 post by Loftus illustrates these errors (emphases mine – VJT):

In what follows I’ll offer a very brief natural explanation of the claim that Jesus resurrected. Compare it with the claim he physically arose from the dead. You cannot say my natural explanation lacks plausibility because I already admit that it does. As I said, incredible things happen all of the time. What you need to say is that my natural explanation is MORE implausible than the claim that Jesus physically arose from the dead, and you simply cannot do that.

As it happens, I’d estimate the probability of Loftus’ preferred explanation for the Resurrection of Jesus to be about 10%. That’s much higher than the prior probability that God would resurrect a man from the dead, even if you assume that there is a God. However, I also believe that there’s a 2/3 3/5 probability (roughly) that Jesus’ disciples had an experience of what they thought was the risen Jesus. If they had such an experience, and if there is a God Who is capable of raising the dead, then I think it’s easy to show that the posterior probability of the Resurrection, in the light of these facts, is very high.

Type A skeptical hypotheses regarding the Resurrection

The following is a fairly exhaustive list of skeptical hypotheses that might be forward, if one wishes to contest the “key facts” listed above.

1. Jesus didn’t exist: he was a fictional person.

2. Jesus existed, but he didn’t die on the cross: either (i) he fell into a swoon on the cross, or (ii) it was actually a look-alike who was crucified in his place.

3(a) The fraud hypothesis: Jesus’ disciples didn’t really see an apparition of Jesus; their story that they had seen him was a total lie. For thirty years, they got away with their lie and attracted quite a following, prior to their execution during the reign of the Emperor Nero. (James the Apostle died somewhat earlier, in 44 A.D.)

3(b) Jesus’ disciples saw what they thought was Jesus’ ghost, but much later on, Christians claimed that the disciples had actually seen (and touched) Jesus’ risen body – either (i) because of deliberate fraud on the part of some individual (possibly St. Mark, in John Loftus’ opinion) who first spread the story of an empty tomb, or (ii) because Jesus’ body had already been stolen by persons unknown, which led Christians to believe Jesus’ body had been raised, or (iii) because the body had disappeared as a result of some natural event (e.g. a local earthquake that swallowed it up), or (iv) because a later generation of Christians (living after the fall of Jerusalem) was no longer able to locate Jesus’ body (or his tomb), which led them to speculate that Jesus had in fact been resurrected from the dead.

3(c) Jesus’ disciples initially thought they had seen Jesus’ ghost, but shortly afterwards, they came to believe that what they had seen was a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus’ resurrected body – either (i) because of the unexpected discovery that Jesus’ tomb was empty or (ii) because of the mis-identification of Jesus’ tomb with another empty tomb nearby.

3(d) Jesus’ disciples experienced individual (rather than collective) non-ghostly apparitions of Jesus, on separate occasions, which convinced each of them that he had risen, and which made them willing to be martyred for their faith in that fact.

[UPDATE: New hypothesis added.]

3(e) Jesus’ disciples experienced a collective non-ghostly apparition of Jesus, which they all saw, but only one of the disciples (probably Peter) actually heard the voice of Jesus. It may have been because Peter was able to talk to Jesus that they were convinced that he was not a ghost; alternatively, it may have been because Jesus was not only visible and audible (to Peter) but also radiant in appearance that the apostles concluded he had risen from the dead.

Type B skeptical hypotheses

Supposing that one grants the key facts listed above, I can think of only two skeptical hypotheses by which one might seek to explain away the disciples’ non-ghostly post-mortem apparition of Jesus, without having recourse to a miracle. Either it was a purely subjective experience (i.e. a collective hallucination), or it was an illusion, created by mind control techniques.

4. Jesus’ disciples had an apparition of Jesus after his death which was so vivid that they came to believe that what they had seen was no ghost, but a resurrected human being. In reality, however, their experience was a collective hallucination, caused by either (i) the grief they were experiencing in the wake of Jesus’ death or (ii) Jesus hypnotizing them before he died and implanting the idea that he would rise on the third day.

5. Jesus’ disciples had a collective non-ghostly apparition of Jesus after his death, but in reality, either (i) aliens or (ii) supernatural beings (demons) were controlling their minds and making them see things that weren’t objectively real.

The Resurrection: Varieties of skepticism

Broadly speaking, there are resurrection-skeptics who believe in a God Who is capable of working miracles, and then there are resurrection-skeptics who have no particular religious beliefs.

Resurrection-skeptics who believe in a God Who can work miracles disagree with the claim that the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations listed above is less than 50%. For their part, Jews have traditionally favored explanation 3(a) [fraud], while Muslims favor explanation 2(ii) [a look-alike died in Jesus’ place]. Personally, I find the Muslim explanation wildly implausible: try as I might, I simply cannot imagine anyone volunteering to die in Jesus’ place, and managing to fool the Romans, the Jews, and (presumably) Jesus’ family and friends into believing that he was Jesus. The mind boggles. The fraud hypothesis was put forward by the Jews back in the first century. In the second century, St. Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho (c. 160 A.D.) records a Jewish skeptic asserting that Jesus’ disciples “stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven” (chapter 108). I have to say that I regard this explanation as a much more sensible one. If I had nothing but the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection available to me, I might be persuaded by it, but for my part, I find it impossible to read the letters of St. Paul to the Corinthians without becoming convinced of their author’s obvious sincerity. The man wasn’t lying when he said that Jesus appeared to him.

Non-religious skeptics who deny the Resurrection fall into different categories: there are both Type A skeptics and Type B skeptics. Among the Type A skeptics, there are a few Jesus-mythers (G.A. Wells, Earl Doherty, Robert Price, Richard Carrier) favor hypothesis 1, while swoon-theorists such as Barbara Thiering and the authors of the best-seller, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, favor hypothesis 2(i). However, most skeptics tend to either favor the Type A hypothesis 3(b) [the disciples saw a ghostly apparition; later Christians made up the resurrection – this is Loftus’ proposal] or the Type B hypothesis 4 [Jesus’ disciples had a collective hallucination, which was so vivid that it caused them to believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead]. Hypothesis 3(c) has few proponents, and I don’t know anyone who advocates hypotheses 3(d) or 5.

My personal evaluation of skeptical explanations for the Resurrection

Reasonable people may disagree in their estimates of the probabilities for the various skeptical hypotheses listed above. However, my own estimates of the probabilities of these hypotheses are as follows:

Type A skeptical hypotheses:

Hypothesis 1 – Jesus never existed. Probability: 1%.
Pro: There’s no contemporaneous pagan or Jewish attestation for the amazing miracles Jesus supposedly worked (healing the sick, raising the dead, feeding the 5,000), which is puzzling. Also, certain aspects of Jesus’ life (e.g. the virgin birth, dying & rising again) are said to have mythological parallels.
Con: No reputable New Testament historian doubts the existence of Jesus. Professor Graeme Clarke of the Australian National University has publicly declared: “Frankly, I know of no ancient historian or biblical historian who would have a twinge of doubt about the existence of a Jesus Christ – the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming.” Indeed, there is pretty good attestation for Jesus’ existence from Josephus (Antiquities, book XX) and Tacitus. Miracle-workers were a dime a dozen in the Roman Empire; one living in far-away Palestine wouldn’t have attracted any comment. The mythological parallels with Jesus’ life are grossly exaggerated. In any case, the question of whether Jesus existed and whether most of the stories about him are true are distinct questions. Perhaps there was a small kernel of truth behind the stories: Jesus healed some sick people.

Hypothesis 2 – Jesus didn’t actually die from crucifixion. Either (i) he fell into a swoon on the cross, or (ii) a look-alike was crucified in his place. Probability: 1%.
Pro: (i) Some individuals were known to survive as long as three days on the cross. Jesus’ death after just a few hours sounds suspicious. (ii) Some of Jesus’ disciples appear not to have recognized him, when they saw him after he was supposedly crucified.
Con: (i) Jesus was flogged, and pierced in the side, if we can believe St. John’s account. That would have hastened his death. But even if Jesus had survived crucifixion, he would have been severely weakened by the experience, and his subsequent apparition to his disciples would have alarmed rather than energized them. (ii) What sane person would volunteer to take Jesus’ place on the cross? Also, wouldn’t someone standing by the foot of the cross have noticed that it wasn’t Jesus hanging on the cross? Finally, the appearance of a risen Jesus who didn’t bear any of the marks of crucifixion would surely have made the disciples wonder if he really was the same person as the man who died on the cross.

Hypothesis 3(a) – fraud. Probability: 10%.
Pro: The perils of being a Christian apostle in the first century have been greatly exaggerated. The apostles Peter and Paul, and James brother of the Lord, lived for 30 years before being martyred, and even the apostle James lived for 11 years. During that time, the apostles would have been highly respected figures. Maybe they were motivated by a desire for fame and/or money. And maybe the apostles were killed for political rather than religious reasons, or for religious reasons that were not specifically related to their having seen the risen Jesus. We don’t know for sure that they were martyred for their belief in Jesus’ Resurrection.
Con: The fact remains that some apostles were put to death, and as far as we can tell it was for their testimony to the Resurrection. St. Clement of Rome, in his (first and only) Epistle to the Corinthians (Chapter 5), written c. 80–98, reminds his readers of Saints Peter and Paul’s martyrdom: “Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles. Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him. Through envy Paul, too, showed by example the prize that is given to patience: seven times was he cast into chains; he was banished; he was stoned; having become a herald, both in the East and in the West, he obtained the noble renown due to his faith; and having preached righteousness to the whole world, and having come to the extremity of the West, and having borne witness before rulers, he departed at length out of the world, and went to the holy place, having become the greatest example of patience.” Additionally, there is no doubting St. Paul’s obvious sincerity when he writes in 2 Corinthians 11:24-27:

Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.

There is little doubt among scholars that Paul is the author of this letter.

Hypothesis 3(b) – the disciples saw what they thought was Jesus’ ghost. Probability: 10%.
Pro: St. Paul writes that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,” and it seems that his own experience of Jesus was just a vision. He never claims to have touched Jesus.
Con: St. Paul speaks of Jesus as the first person to be raised from the dead: he is “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.” If being raised simply means “being seen in a vision after one’s death,” this would make no sense. Post-mortem visions were common in the ancient world. Jesus wasn’t the first to be seen in this way. Nor would it account for St. Paul’s assertion that the resurrection of other human beings would not take place until the end of the world – “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” If a post-mortem appearance by a ghost counts as a resurrection, then many people are raised shortly after their death, and will not have to wait until the Last Day.

Hypothesis 3(c) – the discovery of the empty tomb tricked the disciples into thinking their visions of Jesus’ ghost were really visions of a resurrected Jesus. Probability: 10-15%.
Pro: It’s easy to imagine that people who’d had a post-mortem vision of Jesus might think it was something more than that, if they subsequently found his tomb empty. They might think he really had risen from the dead, after all.
Con: Despite its ingenuity, this hypothesis is at odds with all of the accounts of the Resurrection. In the Gospel narratives, the discovery of the empty tomb occurs before the appearances of Jesus, while in St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, there’s no explicit mention of the tomb being found empty, and no suggestion that its discovery led to a belief in the Resurrection.

Hypothesis 3(d) – the disciples saw the risen Jesus individually, but never collectively. Probability: 3%.
Pro: It’s easy to imagine that over the course of time, the apostles’ individual post-mortem apparitions of Jesus were conflated into one big apparition, especially when many of them were being martyred for their faith in the Resurrection.
Con: The hypothesis assumes that the apostles (including St. Paul) were passionately sincere about their belief that Jesus had appeared to each of them, but that during their lifetimes, they did nothing to stop a lie being propagated: that they had seen him together. St. Paul himself propagates this statement in 1 Corinthians 15 when he says that Jesus appeared “to the Twelve”: are we to presume he was lying?

[UPDATE]

Hypothesis 3(e) – the disciples saw the risen Jesus collectively, but only Peter [and maybe James] were able to talk to Jesus and hear him speak. That may have been what convinced the others that Jesus was not a ghost; alternatively, it may have been because Jesus looked radiant. Probability: 10%.
Pro: There have been apparitions in which all of the seers experienced a vision, but only one seer was able to talk to the person seen – e.g. Fatima, where only Lucia was able to talk to Our Lady. (Jacinta heard her, while Francisco saw her but did not hear her, and did not see her lips move.) The hypothesis would also explain the pre-eminence of Peter [and James] in the early Church, since those who could actually hear the risen Jesus’ message would have been accorded special status.
Con: Seeing and hearing alone would not make a vision non-ghostly. Think of the Biblical story of Saul and the witch of Endor. The ghostly apparition frightened the witch, and even though Saul was able to communicate with the spirit of Samuel, that did not stop him from thinking it was a ghost. Appearing radiant doesn’t seem to have been enough either; in the Biblical story of the Transfiguration (Matthew 17, Mark 9) it is interesting to note that even though Moses and Elijah were visible, radiant and heard conversing with Jesus, the apostles did not conclude that Moses and Elijah were risen from the dead. On the contrary, the early Christians expressly affirmed that Jesus was the first individual to have risen from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:20). [Please note that it does not matter for our purposes if the Transfiguration actually occurred; what matters is what the episode shows about Jewish belief in the resurrection in the 1st century A.D. Evidently, being radiant, visible and audible did not equate to being resurrected.] Finally, it is worth pointing out that St. Paul also claimed to have spoken to the risen Jesus – see Galatians 1:12, 2:2.

Total probability of Type A skeptical hypotheses: 35-40%. 45-50%.

Type B skeptical hypotheses:

Let me begin by saying that if one has prior reasons for believing that the existence of God is astronomically unlikely, then the evidence for the Resurrection won’t be powerful enough to overcome that degree of skepticism. (John Loftus is one such skeptic.) If, on the other hand, one believes that the existence of God is likely (as I do), or even rather unlikely but not astronomically unlikely (let’s say that there’s a one-in-a-million chance that God exists), then the arguments below will possess some evidential force. I have explained elsewhere why I believe that scientific knowledge presupposes the existence of God, so I won’t say anything more about the subject here. I would also like to commend, in passing, Professor Paul Herrick’s 2009 essay, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons.

Hypothesis 4 – collective hallucination. Posterior Probability: Astronomically low (less than 10^-33).
Pro: Collective visions have been known to occur in which the seers claim to have seen and heard much the same thing (e.g. the Catholic visions at Fatima and Medjugorje). And if we look at the history of Mormonism, we find that three witnesses testified that they had seen an angel hand Joseph Smith some golden plates.
Con: There has been no authenticated psychological study of a collective vision where the seers all saw and heard pretty much the same thing. It stands to reason that after having had the experience of seeing Jesus alive again after his death, the apostles would have cross-checked their reports, to see if they were in agreement about what they saw, before accepting the veracity of such an extraordinary miracle as a resurrection from the dead. If we very generously calculate the odds of one of Jesus’ apostles having a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus on some occasion as 10^-3, the odds of all eleven of them (Judas was dead) seeing and hearing substantially the same thing at the same time are: (10^-3)^11, or 10^-33. [See here for a more detailed explanation by Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew.] And for a longer message delivered by the risen Jesus, (10^-3)^11 would be far too generous.
Re Catholic visions: it turns out that the Medjugorje seers didn’t all hear the same thing: they got different messages. Additionally, there is good reason to suppose that they were lying, on at least some occasions (see also here). The Fatima seers, on the other hand, were undoubtedly sincere, but only two of them heard Our Lady and saw her lips move; the other visionary, Francisco, didn’t hear her and didn’t see her lips move. Of the two seers who heard Our Lady, Jacinta never spoke to her and was never directly addressed by Our Lady; only Lucia spoke to Our Lady. The parallel with the Resurrection is therefore a poor one. [See also my post, Fatima: miracle, meteorological effect, UFO, optical illusion or mass hallucination?]
Re Mormon visions: each of the three witnesses who saw the angel hand Smith the golden plates had experienced visions on previous occasions. Also, the angel who handed Smith the plates did not speak, whereas Jesus’ disciples spoke with him on multiple occasions. Not a very good parallel.

Hypothesis 5 – alien or demonic mind control. Posterior Probability: Far less likely than the Resurrection.
Pro: An advanced race of aliens could easily trick us into believing in a resurrection-style miracle, if they wanted to. And if demons are real, then they could, too.
Con: The key word here is “if.” While this hypothesis is possible, we have absolutely no reason to believe that aliens or demons would bother to trick people in this way. The straightforward interpretation of the events – namely, that they actually happened – is far more likely.

That leaves us with the hypothesis of a miracle.

Resurrection hypothesis – Jesus was miraculously raised from the dead. Posterior Probability: Well in excess of 10^-11. Arguably close to 1.
Rationale: The number of human individuals who have ever lived is around 10^11, and well over 90% of these have lived during the past 2,000 years. Given the existence of a supernatural Creator Who can raise the dead, then in the absence of any other information, the prior probability of any individual being raised from the dead is 1 in 10^11, by Laplace’s Sunrise argument. Given the evidence listed in the key facts above (a death, and a post-mortem apparition with many witnesses substantially agreeing about what they saw and heard), the posterior probability of a resurrection is much higher. But even if it were only 10^-11, that’s still much higher than 10^-33, as in hypothesis 4.

Conclusion

Since my estimate of the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations is less than 50%, and since the posterior probability of the Resurrection is much greater than that of the various Type B explanations, belief in the Resurrection is rational, from my perspective.

Based on the evidence, I estimate that there’s about a 60-65% 55-60% chance that Jesus rose from the dead. That means I accept that there’s a 35-40% 45-50% chance that my Christian faith is wrong.

However, I can understand why someone might rate the probabilities of hypotheses 3(a), 3(b) and 3(c) at 20% each, instead of 10%. For such a person, belief in the Resurrection would be irrational, since the total probability of the Type A skeptical hypotheses would exceed 50%.

Summing up: a strong case can be made for the reality of Jesus’ Resurrection. However, a responsible historian would not be justified in asserting that Jesus’ Resurrection is historically certain. As we’ve seen, such a conclusion depends, at the very least, on the claim that there is a significant likelihood that there exists a supernatural Being Who is capable of working miracles, which is something the historian cannot prove. In addition, estimates of the probabilities of rival hypotheses will vary from person to person, and there seems to be no way of deciding whose estimate is the most rational one.

What do readers think? How would you estimate the likelihood of the Resurrection?

Recommended Reading

“Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?” Online debate: Jonathan McLatchie (a Christian apologist) vs Michael Alter (a Jewish writer who is currently studying the Torah with Orthodox Jews, as well as with non-Orthodox Jews). Originally aired on the show, Unbelievable, hosted by Justin Brierley, on March 26th 2016.
The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry by Michael Alter. Xlibris, 2015. Meticulously researched, by all accounts. (I haven’t read it yet.) Probably the best skeptical book on the Resurrection available.
The Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. William Lane Craig.
The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus by Dr. William Lane Craig.
The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth by Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew.
The odds form of Bayes’s Theorem [Updated] by Dr. Lydia McGrew. Extra Thoughts, January 6, 2011.
My Rebuttal to the McGrews – Rewritten by Jeffrey Amos Heavener. May 13, 2011.
Alternate Critical Theories to the Resurrection by Dr. John Weldon. The John Ankerberg Show, 2004.
Origen, Contra Celsum, Book II. Chapters 57-70 provide an excellent historical summary of pagan arguments against the Resurrection of Jesus in the late second century, and Origen’s rebuttal of those arguments in the mid-third century.
Good and bad skepticism: Carl Sagan on extraordinary claims by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, March 15, 2015.
Cavin and Colombetti, miracle-debunkers, or: Can a Transcendent Designer manipulate the cosmos? by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, December 1, 2013.
Hyper-skepticism and “My way or the highway”: Feser’s extraordinary post by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, July 29, 2014.
Is the Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Better Than Mohammed’s Miracles? by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, March 6, 2012.
Oprah Winfrey’s Half-Sister and The Odds of The Resurrection of Jesus by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, January 21, 2012.
A New Explanation of the Resurrection of Jesus: The Result of Mourning by Gerd Lüdemann, Emeritus Professor of the History and Literature of Early Christianity, Georg-August-University of Göttingen. April 2012.
Michael Licona’s Book is Delusional on a Grand Scale by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, July 22, 2011.
Dr. John Dickson To Me: “You are the ‘Donald Trump’ of pop-atheism” by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, April 2, 2017.

1,014 thoughts on “Evidence for the Resurrection: Why reasonable people might differ, and why believers aren’t crazy

  1. Patrick: Those making the positive claim have the burden of proof.

    I agree. “The hardwired natural inclination to see purpose in nature is mistaken” is a positive claim.

    When you say you are an atheist in essence that is what you are claiming.

    peace

  2. John Harshman: At the very least you need to explain how it’s possible that I am not doing what I think I’m doing and don’t believe what I think I believe.

    Self-delusion perhaps?

    peace

  3. walto: while both are often confused, silly, repetitive, robotic, annoying, and absolutely sure that everything they believe is true, at least FMM is not a bully.

    Next to Neil you are still my favorite 😉

    I’m spending way too much time here right now. I have something to attend to

    I’ll check back in when I get a minute

    peace

  4. fifthmonarchyman: Self-delusion perhaps?

    In the words of Grand Moff Tarkin, “Charming as ever.” How do you happen to know my beliefs better than I know them? And can you do better than two words?

  5. John Harshman: How do you happen to know my beliefs better than I know them?

    revelation

    John Harshman: And can you do better than two words?

    I could but I predict it will just make you mad and that is certainly not my intention

    here goes fingers crossed

    quote:

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
    (Rom 1:18-22)

    end quote:

    peace

  6. fifthmonarchyman,

    “Mad” is too strong a word. “Annoyed” would cover it. How many times do you have to be told that a bible verse isn’t an argument or evidence of anything other than that the bible says something? There’s no reason to suppose that it relates to anything in the real world. One can always hope, but I wasn’t expecting anything better

  7. fifth,

    If nonbelievers are the fools, then why are you the one who always ends up looking foolish?

  8. petrushka:
    I agree with Patrick’s matrix. it makes sense to me. I don’t care if other people agree or disagree. The point is to communicate. But you can’t communicate with people who don’t want to understand your point of view.

    The reason I bring it up when people like FFM start torturing words is because I haven’t seen another set of definitions that cover all the different belief systems of atheists I’ve encountered. Many theists, the fundagelicals in particular, seem incapable of understanding the idea of lack of belief. They see some sliding scale between believing a god exists and believing one doesn’t with agnostics milling about aimlessly in between.

    The real world atheists I actually know all describe themselves as lacking belief. None make the claim that there are definitely no gods, but all find the lack of evidence reason not to believe in such a thing. If evidence were provided, all would consider it.

    If someone wants to use different words, that’s fine as long as they clearly define what they mean and don’t try to define actual atheists out of existence. FMM’s definitions don’t meet either criteria.

  9. John Harshman: How many times do you have to be told that a bible verse isn’t an argument or evidence of anything other than that the bible says something?

    I did not claim it was an argument or evidence. It was an explanation
    That is what you asked for

    peace

  10. keiths: If nonbelievers are the fools, then why are you the one who always ends up looking foolish?

    quote:

    but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
    (1Co 1:23-27)

    and

    The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    (1Co 2:14)

    end quote:
    peace

  11. Patrick: None make the claim that there are definitely no gods, but all find the lack of evidence reason not to believe in such a thing.

    lack of evidence is not a good reason to claim that the natural hardwired inclination to find purpose in nature is mistaken.

    For that sort of positive claim you need evidence.

    peace

  12. Patrick: If someone wants to use different words, that’s fine as long as they clearly define what they mean and don’t try to define actual atheists out of existence.

    Says the guy that constantly tries to claim that no one has offered an acceptable operational definition of God.

    LOL

    peace

  13. fifthmonarchyman:

    None make the claim that there are definitely no gods, but all find the lack of evidence reason not to believe in such a thing.

    lack of evidence is not a good reason to claim that the natural hardwired inclination to find purpose in nature is mistaken.

    For that sort of positive claim you need evidence.

    No one I know is making that positive claim. You, on the other hand, are claiming that a particular god exists. Put up or shut up.

  14. Patrick. I don’t know if I agree with you completely, but I don’t really care.

    There are things that can be defined so that everyone agrees. Red Crayola crayon.

    Words about beliefs are terribly subjective. Beliefs have more in common with emotions than with facts or objective concepts. Any attempt to pin down what I believe or disbelieve is just silly. Saying I don’t believe or I lack faith does not mean I don’t think about religion or don’t fantasize about the various god myths. I just find the attempt to force religion into a rational mold to be futile.

  15. fifth,

    Those Bible verses don’t answer my question, which was

    If nonbelievers are the fools, then why are you the one who always ends up looking foolish?

    You are the one who’s afraid to take Father Dan’s Easter Quiz.

    You are the one who was so ashamed of your performance in the earlier thread that you were unwilling provide a URL to your pastor and fellow congregants.

    You are the one who stumbled unwittingly into the “time-traveling physical Jesus” heresy.

    You are the one who plopped out this bit of pseudo-profound bullshit…

    Every piece of true information when properly understood contains within it all truth.

    …that you couldn’t defend.

    If God is with you, why do you fail so badly when you try to defend Christianity?

    If nonbelievers are the fools, then why are you the one who always ends up looking foolish?

  16. fifthmonarchyman: Rumraket: They have a natural inclination towards ascribing purpose or intent to events and objects, but that does not imply the purposive or intending agent is an athropomorphic-god-of-some-sort.

    Theism does not require an athropomorphic-god-of-some-sort any ole god will do.

    Completely irrelevant, there are other “intending agents” than divine beings. I already gave you examples.

    You seem to be having a hard time distinguishing between the tendency to assign agency to things and events, and the culturally developed ideas that take advantage of this tendency, or are built upon it. Like the act of shaking hands. We don’t have a tendency to shake hands, we have a tendency for using body language to signal each other in social situations.

    Atheism on the other hand is the odd man out in that it rejects all of them and argues that our natural inclination to see purpose in nature is mistaken.

    Atheism is the act of not believing the claim that there is at least one divine being. Not believing in something is not a claim, and as such does not require any evidence.

    If everyone had a natural tendency to believe the solar system consists of 3 suns and 97 jupiter-sized planets, somebody resisting this tendency is not under any burden of proof.

    The time to start believing the solar system consists of 3 suns and 97 jupiter-sized planets isn’t “at birth” or “at conception” or whatever other time that particular human instincts might set in, the time to believe it is when it has met it’s burden of proof. It is like that with theism.

    Beliefs are not rationally justified just because they might come hard-wired. And I still disagree that THEISM is a hardwired tendency. Theism is a cultural phenomenon that comes later, through interactions with other human beings. It’s a collaborative effort and an attempt to explain the world.

    The belief “there is agency behind the loud noise” is not a belief justified by reason, it’s a belief “justified” by it’s adaptive potential. That’s why it exists.

    The hardwired tendency is to assign agency to events and objects. Again, think of birds being disturbed by a loud noise. They take flight without actually knowing what’s going on. The basic instinct seems to be to assume that something is out to get them. There is agency in the disturbing noise and it’s probably out ot get them. That’s really just what we’re talking about here.

    This is a positive position and as such requires evidence.

    Some versions of atheism are a positive position, but the fully encompassing definition that includes all versions of atheism (which really is just non-believers, those who do not believe for any reason), is not.

  17. fifthmonarchyman: Rumraket: There is no hardwired inclination towards theism.

    You keep saying that and then turning around and agreeing with me.
    By theism I don’t mean Christianity or even monotheism.

    I simply mean we are naturally inclined to see purpose in nature and purpose requires a purposer

    And a “purposer” can be a tiger hiding in the bushes, making that rustling noise. Tigers aren’t gods. So no, I don’t agree with you.

  18. Rumraket: And a “purposer” can be a tiger hiding in the bushes, making that rustling noise. Tigers aren’t gods. So no, I don’t agree with you.

    We are not talking about what made the rustling noise.
    We are talking about why bushes are made so that they rustle when there is a tiger in them.

    Do you see the difference?

    peace

  19. keiths: If God is with you, why do you fail so badly when you try to defend Christianity?

    I never try and defend Christianity. That would be silly

    Christianity is not a claim to be defended it’s a worldview that allows you to make sense of claims.

    If you were to be convinced of the truth of Christianity by a clever argument you could be dissuaded from Christianity when a crafty rebel came up with a cleverer argument that you had not thought of.

    On the other hand once you realize that there are only two alternatives Christianity or absurdity no amount of craftiness will ever cause you to abandon the only possible way that the world makes sense.

    If you want to convince me that your worldview does not lead to absurdity I’m all ears. That is what the “how do you know stuff?” question is all about.

    peace

  20. Rumraket: If everyone had a natural tendency to believe the solar system consists of 3 suns and 97 jupiter-sized planets, somebody resisting this tendency is not under any burden of proof.

    Yes they are but there is no such natural tendency so your example is irrelevant.

    If you want to say that commonsense is mistaken it’s up to you to support your claim. You can’t just act as if your odd idea is the neutral default and demand others convince you.

    Getting back to my earlier example

    If you were to say that you simply did not believe that a world existed outside your mind. The burden of proof would be on you to prove your claim. You could not simply demand that I prove your silly idea wrong.

    peace

  21. Patrick: You, on the other hand, are claiming that a particular god exists. Put up or shut up.

    There is no need to claim that the Christian God exists and I would never do so. I have repeatedly pointed that out to you. But you insist on calling me a liar. Why do you do that?

    peace

  22. fifthmonarchyman: We are not talking about what made the rustling noise.
    We are talking about why bushes are made so that they rustle when there is a tiger in them.

    Do you see the difference?

    Yes, the second is a loaded question. Do you understand what that is?

  23. walto:
    CharlieM,

    What’s the ‘unity’ to be found in one ‘witness’ mentioning an earthquake, and that alleged event somehow slipping everybody else’s mind.

    One side simply reports what the book actually says. The other finds it necessary to ‘harmonize.’ Why might that be, I wonder. Too bad Johnnie Cochran is not around to ask. I bet he’d know.

    It didn’t slip everybody else’s mind. The four Gospels are an account of the same event from four different viewpoints. The relating of the earthquakes was only relevant from St. Matthew’s point of view.

  24. fifthmonarchyman: Rumraket: If everyone had a natural tendency to believe the solar system consists of 3 suns and 97 jupiter-sized planets, somebody resisting this tendency is not under any burden of proof.

    Yes they are but there is no such natural tendency so your example is irrelevant.

    It’s not irrelevant, it’s an A N A L O G Y. It is supposed to make you understand the principle of the burden of proof.

    Whether the particular tendency actually exists is irrelevant. What matters is the concept of the burden of proof and whether *tendencies* absolve a rational individual from having a burden of proof.

    They don’t. Full stop.

    If you want to say that commonsense is mistaken it’s up to you to support your claim.

    A tendency isn’t synonymous with common sense. And, again, the tendency is not to believe there are gods in existence. That’s cultural.

    And even if it was, that would still not mean that tendency had a justification in reason and evidence.

    Nor would it entail that people who resist this putative tendency is under some sort of burden of proof in their mere act of resisting it.

    EVERYTHING you say is wrong. There are so many ridiculous assumptions in the way you argue here it’s like you cannot fathom a position, even in principle, different from your own.

    You can’t just act as if your odd idea is the neutral default and demand others convince you.

    It doesn’t matter whether it is the “neutral default”, whatever the hell you even mean by this.
    It is the RATIONAL position (as the 3 suns and 97-jupiter ANALOGY showed), and that is enough.

    Getting back to my earlier example

    If you were to say that you simply did not believe that a world existed outside your mind. The burden of proof would be on you to prove your claim.

    LOL.

    No, it wouldn’t. If all I did was tell you that I did not believe in some particular proposition, I would not have any burden of proof.

    I would have a burden of proof it I told you that the proposition “there is a world outside my mind” is false. In other words, if I asserted that I had discovered the truth-value.

    If all I do is inform you that I have not accepted the proposion, I have not asserted what the truth-value is. I have simply told you that I have not accepted the claim that the truth-value of “there is a world outside my mind” is ‘true’.

    You could not simply demand that I prove your silly idea wrong.

    But that’s what you’re doing right now. You have a silly idea (“the bushes are made to rustle when a tiger is hiding in it, by an tri-omni God”), and I disbelieve it.

    And in response to my disbelief in that silly idea, you want me to prove you wrong. You’re asking me to meet a burden of proof. You want to be told why you should not believe in your silly idea. You think your silly idea is true by default. Not just that your silly idea is incidentally believed by default. But that it is true by default and that you should not stop believing until you are persuaded out of it against your countless cognitive biases and intense wish to go on believing.

    That is ALSO a silly idea.

    This lesson in basic rational epistemology is brought to you by *internet nobody*. It should tell you something that internet nobodies are tutoring you in the basics of rational epistemology. You are completely disconnected from reason. Wake the fuck up.

  25. CharlieM: It didn’t slip everybody else’s mind. The four Gospels are an account of the same event from four different viewpoints. The relating of the earthquakes was only relevant from St. Matthew’s point of view.

    There’s a limit to the sorts of things chroniclers can be thought to have just “not mentioned.” Furthermore, they don’t just “not say” stuff, they also SAY contradictory things. Which is fine…so long as you don’t support any inerrancy thesis. People get stuff wrong all the time. If they didn’t, it would make sense to think the supposed perfect truth-teller was just making stuff up or even that these supposed chroniclers didn’t actually exist at all.

    Look, maybe, like the Cochran defense, apologies like yours can be claimed to produce a “higher justice”–and for all I know they do. But they are what they are as statements with truth-values. Even if having someone say them–and many others believe them– actually maximizes utilities over the long term, they’re still bullshit on their face. Those good results can’t make things TRUE.

    As I’ve said, y’all want EVERYTHING. You want your view to be both a science and a religion. They can’t be. And my advice is that you better pick religion, because it’s very bad science.

  26. fifthmonarchyman: If you were to be convinced of the truth of Christianity by a clever argument you could be dissuaded from Christianity when a crafty rebel came up with a cleverer argument that you had not thought of.

    Which would be the rational approach.

    Christians who have discovered that Christianity cannot be rationally supported by reason and evidence, have elected to redefine the terms of the game such that Christianity is “true by default” and everyone else are “wrong by default” and refuse to accept that they have lost their fucking minds. We call them presuppositionalist christians. Or in the common vernacular, lunatics.

    So childish and needy in their beliefs are they, that they have deliberately altered the rules of the game in their own favor, out of fear that they might be persuaded out of it by logic and evidence.

  27. fifthmonarchyman: If you want to convince me that your worldview does not lead to absurdity I’m all ears.

    Please show how my worldview leads to absurdity. I’m not aware that it does and I’d be interested in having it pointed out to me.

  28. keiths:
    walto:

    And not just one earthquake but two, plus a mass resurrection!

    First earthquake, plus dead people wandering the streets of Jerusalem:

    Second earthquake:

    Two earthquakes plus a zombie apocalypse, yet only the author of Matthew thought any of this was worth mentioning.

    Inerrantists must be the most gullible people on the planet.

    It bears repeating that the Gospels are not meant to be historical documents and should not be taken as such. They are a recounting of one pivotal event, the Christ Event, related from the point of view of four great initiates. They are not to be taken literally just as it is not to be taken literally when Christ calls Peter the rock upon which He will build His Church.

    The Gospel of Matthew is written from the point of view of earthly humanity, it takes us right down to solid physical matter into which Christ descended. On the other hand, the Gospel of John is told from a higher point of view, from the Logos, from the light which shines in the darkness.

    Matthew is dealing primarily with the descent of Christ, John with His subsequent ascent.

  29. Rumraket: Please show how my worldview leads to absurdity. I’m not aware that it does and I’d be interested in having it pointed out to me.

    FMM thinks he wields a scientific torch and a philosophical scythe. But all he actually has in hand is a religion he happens to enjoy. Comforting stories and rituals. Nothing more.

  30. CharlieM: It bears repeating that the Gospels are not meant to be historical documents and should not be taken as such.

    You need to remind some of the Christians here of that. They don’t agree with you, apparently.

    Of course the danger they (rightly) fear, is that if one observation is wrong, many might be. Nearly all, in fact. So they pretend not only that it’s history, but that every single word of it is true.

  31. Suppose for a moment we were space aliens visiting Earth after some cataclysmic event that destroyed most human artifacts. Lefit in the rubble are some Digitally recorded movies, which are eventually decoded.

    Now the debate begins as to whether they represent historical documents or fiction.

    Among the clues are continuity errors, props and scenery that are inconsistent from one scene to another..

  32. walto: FMM thinks he wields a scientific torch and a philosophical scythe.But all he actually has in hand is a religion he happens to enjoy.Comforting stories and rituals.Nothing more.

    As is usually the case for people toiling fruitlessly under the Dunning Kruger effect.

  33. Rumraket: Please show how my worldview leads to absurdity. I’m not aware that it does and I’d be interested in having it pointed out to me.

    FMM thinks that non-Christian worldviews lead to absurdity because they lack the resources to answer the question, “how do you know what you know?”

    (Never mind that FMM’s own answer to that question is absurd.)

  34. fifthmonarchyman: I did not claim it was an argument or evidence. It was an explanation
    That is what you asked for

    It isn’t an explanation either. It’s just repetition of a claim. Now if what you’re saying is just that you believe it because it’s in the bible, and there’s no other sense or justification for your belief, then I’m fine with that.

  35. Rumraket: Please show how my worldview leads to absurdity. I’m not aware that it does and I’d be interested in having it pointed out to me.

    Please Rum, don’t…. just don’t

  36. fifthmonarchyman:
    Christianity is not a claim to be defended it’s a worldview that allows you to make sense of claims.

    You have yet to support this claim.

    On the other hand once you realize that there are only two alternatives Christianity or absurdity no amount of craftiness will ever cause you to abandon the only possible way that the world makes sense.

    Or this related one.

    Let’s see your evidence and arguments that support this claim. You’ve been asked repeatedly and thus far have provided nothing. And before you start trying to shift the burden of proof, again, just don’t. It’s intellectually dishonest. Support your claim with evidence and reason or retract it.

  37. fifthmonarchyman:

    You, on the other hand, are claiming that a particular god exists. Put up or shut up.

    There is no need to claim that the Christian God exists and I would never do so.

    You do so whenever you talk about your beliefs here.

    I have repeatedly pointed that out to you. But you insist on calling me a liar. Why do you do that?

    Because you’re lying. You are making the claim that the Christian god exists. You can call it whatever you like but that doesn’t change its nature as a claim. Support it or retract it. Failure to do either further demonstrates your dishonesty and lack of intellectual integrity.

  38. fifthmonarchyman:
    newton: Purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    The supernatural is one reason

    when the thing that exhibits purpose is nature itself the only available reason is the supernatural.

    Another available reason is purpose comes from the perceiver not the thing. Bottom up

  39. Patrick: Because you’re lying. You are making the claim that the Christian god exists. You can call it whatever you like but that doesn’t change its nature as a claim. Support it or retract it. Failure to do either further demonstrates your dishonesty and lack of intellectual integrity.

    This seems an egregious violation of the rules without the addendum that you are not making a claim just explaining how he is self delusional per your revelation.

  40. walto: I mean, I know Patrick is the one who is the bully with the gun collection, but still.

    Nervous Nellie

  41. fifthmonarchyman: Atheism on the other hand is the odd man out in that it rejects all of them and argues that our natural inclination to see purpose in nature is mistaken.

    Not exactly, they find a natural inclinations while sometimes useful are not convincing evidence. They reserve judgement. You on the hand seem to be saying natural inclinations are always reliable, put there by a purposer.

  42. fifthmonarchyman: We are not talking about what made the rustling noise.
    We are talking about why bushes are made so that they rustle when there is a tiger in them.

    Do you see the difference?

    peace

    Yes, you just attempted to change the issue from the first to the second.

    Not that there’s the least truth in the claim that bushes are made so that they rustle when there is a tiger in them.

    Glen Davidson

  43. GlenDavidson: Not that there’s the least truth in the claim that bushes are made so that they rustle when there is a tiger in them.

    Sometimes they rustle when it is not a tiger, those tricky bastards.

  44. CharlieM,

    It bears repeating that the Gospels are not meant to be historical documents and should not be taken as such. They are a recounting of one pivotal event, the Christ Event, related from the point of view of four great initiates.

    If so, then why can’t God get that message across to his followers? Why is he so incompetent?

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