Evidence for the Resurrection: Why reasonable people might differ, and why believers aren’t crazy

Easter is approaching, but skeptic John Loftus doesn’t believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. What’s more, he thinks you’re delusional if you do. I happen to believe in the Resurrection, but I freely admit that I might be mistaken. I think Loftus is wrong, and his case against the Resurrection is statistically flawed; however, I don’t think he’s delusional. In today’s post, I’d like to summarize the key issues at stake here, before going on to explain why I think reasonable people might disagree on the weight of the evidence for the Resurrection.

The following quotes convey the tenor of Loftus’ views on the evidence for the Resurrection:

What we have at best are second-hand testimonies filtered through the gospel writers. With the possible exception of Paul who claimed to have experienced the resurrected Jesus in what is surely a visionary experience (so we read in Acts 26:19, cf. II Cor. 12:1-6; Rev. 1:10-3:21–although he didn’t actually see Jesus, Acts 9:4-8; 22:7-11; 26:13-14), everything we’re told comes from someone who was not an eyewitness. This is hearsay evidence, at best. [Here.]

The Jews of Jesus’ day believed in Yahweh and that he does miracles, and they knew their Old Testament prophecies, and yet the overwhelming numbers of them did not believe Jesus was raised from the dead by Yahweh. So Christianity didn’t take root in the Jewish homeland but had to reach out to the Greco-Roman world for converts. Why should we believe if they were there and didn’t? [Here.]

…[F]or [Christian apologist Mike] Licona to think he can defend the resurrection of Jesus historically is delusional on a grand scale.[Here.]

My natural explanation is that the early disciples were visionaries, that is, they believed God was speaking to them in dreams, trances, and thoughts that burst into their heads throughout the day. Having their hopes utterly dashed upon the crucifixion of Jesus they began having visions that Jesus arose from the dead. [Here.]

My natural explanation [additionally] requires … one liar for Jesus, and I think this liar is the author of Mark, the first gospel. He invented the empty tomb sequence. That’s it. [Here.]

Loftus is not a dogmatic skeptic; he allows that he can imagine evidence which would convince him that Christianity is true. However, it is his contention that the evidence of the New Testament falls far short of this standard. The problem, to put it briefly, is that evidence for the authenticity of a second-hand report of a miracle does not constitute evidence that the miraculous event described in the report actually occurred. This evidential gap is known as Lessing’s ugly broad ditch, after the 18th century German critic, Gotthold Lessing (1729-1781), who first pointed it out.

In this post, I will not be attempting to demonstrate that the Resurrection actually occurred. Rather, my aim will be to outline the process of reasoning whereby someone might conclude that it probably occurred, while acknowledging that he/she may be wrong. I’ll also endeavor to explain how another person, following the same procedure as the tentative believer, might arrive at a contrary conclusion, which would make it irrational for him/her to espouse a belief in the Resurrection.

The key facts required to establish the Resurrection

Before I begin, I’m going to make a short list of key facts, whose truth needs to be established by anyone mounting a serious case for the Resurrection.

Key facts:
1. The man known as Jesus Christ was a real person, who lived in 1st-century Palestine.
2. Jesus was crucified and died.
3. Jesus’ disciples collectively saw a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus, after his death.
N.B. By a “non-ghostly” apparition, I mean: a multi-sensory [i.e. visual, auditory and possibly tactile] apparition, which led the disciples to believe Jesus was alive again. I don’t mean that Jesus necessarily ate fish, or had a gaping hole in his side: many Biblical scholars now think that these details may have been added to the Gospels of Luke and John for polemical reasons. Are they right? I don’t know.

Readers will note that none of the key facts listed above makes any mention of the empty tomb. My reason for this omission is that St. Paul’s account in 1 Corinthians 15, which is the only eyewitness report, makes no explicit mention of Jesus’ empty tomb, although it seems to imply this fact when it says that Jesus was buried and raised. I won’t be relying on the Gospel accounts here, as they are probably not eyewitness accounts: most scholars date them to between 70 and 110 A.D. By the same token, I won’t be relying on the accounts of St. Paul’s encounter with Jesus in the Acts of the Apostles, which some scholars date as late as 110-140 A.D. St. Paul simply says of his experience: “last of all he appeared to me also.” That makes him an eyewitness.

It will be apparent to readers who are familiar with debates regarding the resurrection that my list of “key facts” is more modest than Dr. Willam Lane Craig’s list of minimal facts which he frequently invokes when he is debating the subject. Craig assumes that Jesus was buried in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea, and that the following Sunday, his tomb was found empty by a group of women followers of Jesus. I make neither of these assumptions, although I happen to think he is right on both. For those who are inclined to doubt, Dr. Craig’s article, The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus, is well worth reading.

Two types of skepticism

I propose to distinguish between two kinds of skepticism: Type A and Type B. Type A skepticism casts doubt on people’s claims to have had an extraordinary experience, while Type B skepticism questions whether a miraculous explanation of this extraordinary experience is the best one. In the case of the Resurrection, Type A skepticism seeks to undermine one or more of the key facts listed above, whereas Type B skepticism doesn’t question the key facts, but looks for a non-miraculous explanation of those key facts.

Carl Sagan’s maxim that “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs” is often quoted when the subject of miracles comes up. But we must be careful not to confuse extraordinary claims with extraordinary experiences: the former relate to objectively real occurrences, while the latter relate to subjective experiences. There is nothing improbable about someone’s having an extraordinary experience. People have bizarre experiences quite often: most of us have had one, or know someone who has had one. However, extraordinary occurrences are by definition rare: their prior probability is very, very low.

The distinction I have made above is a vital one. The key facts listed above imply that Jesus’ disciples had an extraordinary experience, but as we’ve seen, there’s nothing improbable about that.

On the other hand, the prior probability of an actual extraordinary occurrence (such as the Resurrection) is extremely low. So even if we can show that Jesus’ disciples had an extraordinary experience which persuaded them that he had risen again, one still needs to show that the posterior probability of all proposed non-miraculous explanations of this experience is less than the posterior probability of a miracle, given this extraordinary experience, before one is permitted to conclude that the miraculous explanation is warranted. And even then, one is still not home free, because it makes no sense to posit a miracle unless one has independent grounds for believing that there is a God, or at the very least, that there is a small but significant likelihood that God exists.

To sum up, in order for belief in Jesus’ Resurrection to be reasonable, what one has to show is that:
(i) the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations listed below is less than 50%; and
(ii) given the key facts listed above, and given also that there is a reasonable likelihood that a supernatural Deity exists Who is at least able to resurrect a dead human being, if He chooses to do so, then the total [posterior] probability of the various Type B skeptical explanations listed below is far less than the posterior probability that Jesus was miraculously raised.

What’s wrong with Loftus’ argument, in a nutshell

Basically, there are two errors in John Loftus’ case against the Resurrection: first, he overlooks the fact that the probabilities of the various Type B skeptical explanations are posterior probabilities, rather than prior probabilities; and second, he thinks that because the prior probability of a resurrection is very small, any Type A skeptical explanation whose prior probability is greater than that of the Resurrection of Jesus is a more likely explanation of whatever took place. The following excerpt from a 2012 post by Loftus illustrates these errors (emphases mine – VJT):

In what follows I’ll offer a very brief natural explanation of the claim that Jesus resurrected. Compare it with the claim he physically arose from the dead. You cannot say my natural explanation lacks plausibility because I already admit that it does. As I said, incredible things happen all of the time. What you need to say is that my natural explanation is MORE implausible than the claim that Jesus physically arose from the dead, and you simply cannot do that.

As it happens, I’d estimate the probability of Loftus’ preferred explanation for the Resurrection of Jesus to be about 10%. That’s much higher than the prior probability that God would resurrect a man from the dead, even if you assume that there is a God. However, I also believe that there’s a 2/3 3/5 probability (roughly) that Jesus’ disciples had an experience of what they thought was the risen Jesus. If they had such an experience, and if there is a God Who is capable of raising the dead, then I think it’s easy to show that the posterior probability of the Resurrection, in the light of these facts, is very high.

Type A skeptical hypotheses regarding the Resurrection

The following is a fairly exhaustive list of skeptical hypotheses that might be forward, if one wishes to contest the “key facts” listed above.

1. Jesus didn’t exist: he was a fictional person.

2. Jesus existed, but he didn’t die on the cross: either (i) he fell into a swoon on the cross, or (ii) it was actually a look-alike who was crucified in his place.

3(a) The fraud hypothesis: Jesus’ disciples didn’t really see an apparition of Jesus; their story that they had seen him was a total lie. For thirty years, they got away with their lie and attracted quite a following, prior to their execution during the reign of the Emperor Nero. (James the Apostle died somewhat earlier, in 44 A.D.)

3(b) Jesus’ disciples saw what they thought was Jesus’ ghost, but much later on, Christians claimed that the disciples had actually seen (and touched) Jesus’ risen body – either (i) because of deliberate fraud on the part of some individual (possibly St. Mark, in John Loftus’ opinion) who first spread the story of an empty tomb, or (ii) because Jesus’ body had already been stolen by persons unknown, which led Christians to believe Jesus’ body had been raised, or (iii) because the body had disappeared as a result of some natural event (e.g. a local earthquake that swallowed it up), or (iv) because a later generation of Christians (living after the fall of Jerusalem) was no longer able to locate Jesus’ body (or his tomb), which led them to speculate that Jesus had in fact been resurrected from the dead.

3(c) Jesus’ disciples initially thought they had seen Jesus’ ghost, but shortly afterwards, they came to believe that what they had seen was a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus’ resurrected body – either (i) because of the unexpected discovery that Jesus’ tomb was empty or (ii) because of the mis-identification of Jesus’ tomb with another empty tomb nearby.

3(d) Jesus’ disciples experienced individual (rather than collective) non-ghostly apparitions of Jesus, on separate occasions, which convinced each of them that he had risen, and which made them willing to be martyred for their faith in that fact.

[UPDATE: New hypothesis added.]

3(e) Jesus’ disciples experienced a collective non-ghostly apparition of Jesus, which they all saw, but only one of the disciples (probably Peter) actually heard the voice of Jesus. It may have been because Peter was able to talk to Jesus that they were convinced that he was not a ghost; alternatively, it may have been because Jesus was not only visible and audible (to Peter) but also radiant in appearance that the apostles concluded he had risen from the dead.

Type B skeptical hypotheses

Supposing that one grants the key facts listed above, I can think of only two skeptical hypotheses by which one might seek to explain away the disciples’ non-ghostly post-mortem apparition of Jesus, without having recourse to a miracle. Either it was a purely subjective experience (i.e. a collective hallucination), or it was an illusion, created by mind control techniques.

4. Jesus’ disciples had an apparition of Jesus after his death which was so vivid that they came to believe that what they had seen was no ghost, but a resurrected human being. In reality, however, their experience was a collective hallucination, caused by either (i) the grief they were experiencing in the wake of Jesus’ death or (ii) Jesus hypnotizing them before he died and implanting the idea that he would rise on the third day.

5. Jesus’ disciples had a collective non-ghostly apparition of Jesus after his death, but in reality, either (i) aliens or (ii) supernatural beings (demons) were controlling their minds and making them see things that weren’t objectively real.

The Resurrection: Varieties of skepticism

Broadly speaking, there are resurrection-skeptics who believe in a God Who is capable of working miracles, and then there are resurrection-skeptics who have no particular religious beliefs.

Resurrection-skeptics who believe in a God Who can work miracles disagree with the claim that the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations listed above is less than 50%. For their part, Jews have traditionally favored explanation 3(a) [fraud], while Muslims favor explanation 2(ii) [a look-alike died in Jesus’ place]. Personally, I find the Muslim explanation wildly implausible: try as I might, I simply cannot imagine anyone volunteering to die in Jesus’ place, and managing to fool the Romans, the Jews, and (presumably) Jesus’ family and friends into believing that he was Jesus. The mind boggles. The fraud hypothesis was put forward by the Jews back in the first century. In the second century, St. Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho (c. 160 A.D.) records a Jewish skeptic asserting that Jesus’ disciples “stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven” (chapter 108). I have to say that I regard this explanation as a much more sensible one. If I had nothing but the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection available to me, I might be persuaded by it, but for my part, I find it impossible to read the letters of St. Paul to the Corinthians without becoming convinced of their author’s obvious sincerity. The man wasn’t lying when he said that Jesus appeared to him.

Non-religious skeptics who deny the Resurrection fall into different categories: there are both Type A skeptics and Type B skeptics. Among the Type A skeptics, there are a few Jesus-mythers (G.A. Wells, Earl Doherty, Robert Price, Richard Carrier) favor hypothesis 1, while swoon-theorists such as Barbara Thiering and the authors of the best-seller, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, favor hypothesis 2(i). However, most skeptics tend to either favor the Type A hypothesis 3(b) [the disciples saw a ghostly apparition; later Christians made up the resurrection – this is Loftus’ proposal] or the Type B hypothesis 4 [Jesus’ disciples had a collective hallucination, which was so vivid that it caused them to believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead]. Hypothesis 3(c) has few proponents, and I don’t know anyone who advocates hypotheses 3(d) or 5.

My personal evaluation of skeptical explanations for the Resurrection

Reasonable people may disagree in their estimates of the probabilities for the various skeptical hypotheses listed above. However, my own estimates of the probabilities of these hypotheses are as follows:

Type A skeptical hypotheses:

Hypothesis 1 – Jesus never existed. Probability: 1%.
Pro: There’s no contemporaneous pagan or Jewish attestation for the amazing miracles Jesus supposedly worked (healing the sick, raising the dead, feeding the 5,000), which is puzzling. Also, certain aspects of Jesus’ life (e.g. the virgin birth, dying & rising again) are said to have mythological parallels.
Con: No reputable New Testament historian doubts the existence of Jesus. Professor Graeme Clarke of the Australian National University has publicly declared: “Frankly, I know of no ancient historian or biblical historian who would have a twinge of doubt about the existence of a Jesus Christ – the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming.” Indeed, there is pretty good attestation for Jesus’ existence from Josephus (Antiquities, book XX) and Tacitus. Miracle-workers were a dime a dozen in the Roman Empire; one living in far-away Palestine wouldn’t have attracted any comment. The mythological parallels with Jesus’ life are grossly exaggerated. In any case, the question of whether Jesus existed and whether most of the stories about him are true are distinct questions. Perhaps there was a small kernel of truth behind the stories: Jesus healed some sick people.

Hypothesis 2 – Jesus didn’t actually die from crucifixion. Either (i) he fell into a swoon on the cross, or (ii) a look-alike was crucified in his place. Probability: 1%.
Pro: (i) Some individuals were known to survive as long as three days on the cross. Jesus’ death after just a few hours sounds suspicious. (ii) Some of Jesus’ disciples appear not to have recognized him, when they saw him after he was supposedly crucified.
Con: (i) Jesus was flogged, and pierced in the side, if we can believe St. John’s account. That would have hastened his death. But even if Jesus had survived crucifixion, he would have been severely weakened by the experience, and his subsequent apparition to his disciples would have alarmed rather than energized them. (ii) What sane person would volunteer to take Jesus’ place on the cross? Also, wouldn’t someone standing by the foot of the cross have noticed that it wasn’t Jesus hanging on the cross? Finally, the appearance of a risen Jesus who didn’t bear any of the marks of crucifixion would surely have made the disciples wonder if he really was the same person as the man who died on the cross.

Hypothesis 3(a) – fraud. Probability: 10%.
Pro: The perils of being a Christian apostle in the first century have been greatly exaggerated. The apostles Peter and Paul, and James brother of the Lord, lived for 30 years before being martyred, and even the apostle James lived for 11 years. During that time, the apostles would have been highly respected figures. Maybe they were motivated by a desire for fame and/or money. And maybe the apostles were killed for political rather than religious reasons, or for religious reasons that were not specifically related to their having seen the risen Jesus. We don’t know for sure that they were martyred for their belief in Jesus’ Resurrection.
Con: The fact remains that some apostles were put to death, and as far as we can tell it was for their testimony to the Resurrection. St. Clement of Rome, in his (first and only) Epistle to the Corinthians (Chapter 5), written c. 80–98, reminds his readers of Saints Peter and Paul’s martyrdom: “Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles. Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him. Through envy Paul, too, showed by example the prize that is given to patience: seven times was he cast into chains; he was banished; he was stoned; having become a herald, both in the East and in the West, he obtained the noble renown due to his faith; and having preached righteousness to the whole world, and having come to the extremity of the West, and having borne witness before rulers, he departed at length out of the world, and went to the holy place, having become the greatest example of patience.” Additionally, there is no doubting St. Paul’s obvious sincerity when he writes in 2 Corinthians 11:24-27:

Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.

There is little doubt among scholars that Paul is the author of this letter.

Hypothesis 3(b) – the disciples saw what they thought was Jesus’ ghost. Probability: 10%.
Pro: St. Paul writes that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,” and it seems that his own experience of Jesus was just a vision. He never claims to have touched Jesus.
Con: St. Paul speaks of Jesus as the first person to be raised from the dead: he is “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.” If being raised simply means “being seen in a vision after one’s death,” this would make no sense. Post-mortem visions were common in the ancient world. Jesus wasn’t the first to be seen in this way. Nor would it account for St. Paul’s assertion that the resurrection of other human beings would not take place until the end of the world – “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” If a post-mortem appearance by a ghost counts as a resurrection, then many people are raised shortly after their death, and will not have to wait until the Last Day.

Hypothesis 3(c) – the discovery of the empty tomb tricked the disciples into thinking their visions of Jesus’ ghost were really visions of a resurrected Jesus. Probability: 10-15%.
Pro: It’s easy to imagine that people who’d had a post-mortem vision of Jesus might think it was something more than that, if they subsequently found his tomb empty. They might think he really had risen from the dead, after all.
Con: Despite its ingenuity, this hypothesis is at odds with all of the accounts of the Resurrection. In the Gospel narratives, the discovery of the empty tomb occurs before the appearances of Jesus, while in St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, there’s no explicit mention of the tomb being found empty, and no suggestion that its discovery led to a belief in the Resurrection.

Hypothesis 3(d) – the disciples saw the risen Jesus individually, but never collectively. Probability: 3%.
Pro: It’s easy to imagine that over the course of time, the apostles’ individual post-mortem apparitions of Jesus were conflated into one big apparition, especially when many of them were being martyred for their faith in the Resurrection.
Con: The hypothesis assumes that the apostles (including St. Paul) were passionately sincere about their belief that Jesus had appeared to each of them, but that during their lifetimes, they did nothing to stop a lie being propagated: that they had seen him together. St. Paul himself propagates this statement in 1 Corinthians 15 when he says that Jesus appeared “to the Twelve”: are we to presume he was lying?

[UPDATE]

Hypothesis 3(e) – the disciples saw the risen Jesus collectively, but only Peter [and maybe James] were able to talk to Jesus and hear him speak. That may have been what convinced the others that Jesus was not a ghost; alternatively, it may have been because Jesus looked radiant. Probability: 10%.
Pro: There have been apparitions in which all of the seers experienced a vision, but only one seer was able to talk to the person seen – e.g. Fatima, where only Lucia was able to talk to Our Lady. (Jacinta heard her, while Francisco saw her but did not hear her, and did not see her lips move.) The hypothesis would also explain the pre-eminence of Peter [and James] in the early Church, since those who could actually hear the risen Jesus’ message would have been accorded special status.
Con: Seeing and hearing alone would not make a vision non-ghostly. Think of the Biblical story of Saul and the witch of Endor. The ghostly apparition frightened the witch, and even though Saul was able to communicate with the spirit of Samuel, that did not stop him from thinking it was a ghost. Appearing radiant doesn’t seem to have been enough either; in the Biblical story of the Transfiguration (Matthew 17, Mark 9) it is interesting to note that even though Moses and Elijah were visible, radiant and heard conversing with Jesus, the apostles did not conclude that Moses and Elijah were risen from the dead. On the contrary, the early Christians expressly affirmed that Jesus was the first individual to have risen from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:20). [Please note that it does not matter for our purposes if the Transfiguration actually occurred; what matters is what the episode shows about Jewish belief in the resurrection in the 1st century A.D. Evidently, being radiant, visible and audible did not equate to being resurrected.] Finally, it is worth pointing out that St. Paul also claimed to have spoken to the risen Jesus – see Galatians 1:12, 2:2.

Total probability of Type A skeptical hypotheses: 35-40%. 45-50%.

Type B skeptical hypotheses:

Let me begin by saying that if one has prior reasons for believing that the existence of God is astronomically unlikely, then the evidence for the Resurrection won’t be powerful enough to overcome that degree of skepticism. (John Loftus is one such skeptic.) If, on the other hand, one believes that the existence of God is likely (as I do), or even rather unlikely but not astronomically unlikely (let’s say that there’s a one-in-a-million chance that God exists), then the arguments below will possess some evidential force. I have explained elsewhere why I believe that scientific knowledge presupposes the existence of God, so I won’t say anything more about the subject here. I would also like to commend, in passing, Professor Paul Herrick’s 2009 essay, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons.

Hypothesis 4 – collective hallucination. Posterior Probability: Astronomically low (less than 10^-33).
Pro: Collective visions have been known to occur in which the seers claim to have seen and heard much the same thing (e.g. the Catholic visions at Fatima and Medjugorje). And if we look at the history of Mormonism, we find that three witnesses testified that they had seen an angel hand Joseph Smith some golden plates.
Con: There has been no authenticated psychological study of a collective vision where the seers all saw and heard pretty much the same thing. It stands to reason that after having had the experience of seeing Jesus alive again after his death, the apostles would have cross-checked their reports, to see if they were in agreement about what they saw, before accepting the veracity of such an extraordinary miracle as a resurrection from the dead. If we very generously calculate the odds of one of Jesus’ apostles having a non-ghostly apparition of Jesus on some occasion as 10^-3, the odds of all eleven of them (Judas was dead) seeing and hearing substantially the same thing at the same time are: (10^-3)^11, or 10^-33. [See here for a more detailed explanation by Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew.] And for a longer message delivered by the risen Jesus, (10^-3)^11 would be far too generous.
Re Catholic visions: it turns out that the Medjugorje seers didn’t all hear the same thing: they got different messages. Additionally, there is good reason to suppose that they were lying, on at least some occasions (see also here). The Fatima seers, on the other hand, were undoubtedly sincere, but only two of them heard Our Lady and saw her lips move; the other visionary, Francisco, didn’t hear her and didn’t see her lips move. Of the two seers who heard Our Lady, Jacinta never spoke to her and was never directly addressed by Our Lady; only Lucia spoke to Our Lady. The parallel with the Resurrection is therefore a poor one. [See also my post, Fatima: miracle, meteorological effect, UFO, optical illusion or mass hallucination?]
Re Mormon visions: each of the three witnesses who saw the angel hand Smith the golden plates had experienced visions on previous occasions. Also, the angel who handed Smith the plates did not speak, whereas Jesus’ disciples spoke with him on multiple occasions. Not a very good parallel.

Hypothesis 5 – alien or demonic mind control. Posterior Probability: Far less likely than the Resurrection.
Pro: An advanced race of aliens could easily trick us into believing in a resurrection-style miracle, if they wanted to. And if demons are real, then they could, too.
Con: The key word here is “if.” While this hypothesis is possible, we have absolutely no reason to believe that aliens or demons would bother to trick people in this way. The straightforward interpretation of the events – namely, that they actually happened – is far more likely.

That leaves us with the hypothesis of a miracle.

Resurrection hypothesis – Jesus was miraculously raised from the dead. Posterior Probability: Well in excess of 10^-11. Arguably close to 1.
Rationale: The number of human individuals who have ever lived is around 10^11, and well over 90% of these have lived during the past 2,000 years. Given the existence of a supernatural Creator Who can raise the dead, then in the absence of any other information, the prior probability of any individual being raised from the dead is 1 in 10^11, by Laplace’s Sunrise argument. Given the evidence listed in the key facts above (a death, and a post-mortem apparition with many witnesses substantially agreeing about what they saw and heard), the posterior probability of a resurrection is much higher. But even if it were only 10^-11, that’s still much higher than 10^-33, as in hypothesis 4.

Conclusion

Since my estimate of the total probability of the various Type A skeptical explanations is less than 50%, and since the posterior probability of the Resurrection is much greater than that of the various Type B explanations, belief in the Resurrection is rational, from my perspective.

Based on the evidence, I estimate that there’s about a 60-65% 55-60% chance that Jesus rose from the dead. That means I accept that there’s a 35-40% 45-50% chance that my Christian faith is wrong.

However, I can understand why someone might rate the probabilities of hypotheses 3(a), 3(b) and 3(c) at 20% each, instead of 10%. For such a person, belief in the Resurrection would be irrational, since the total probability of the Type A skeptical hypotheses would exceed 50%.

Summing up: a strong case can be made for the reality of Jesus’ Resurrection. However, a responsible historian would not be justified in asserting that Jesus’ Resurrection is historically certain. As we’ve seen, such a conclusion depends, at the very least, on the claim that there is a significant likelihood that there exists a supernatural Being Who is capable of working miracles, which is something the historian cannot prove. In addition, estimates of the probabilities of rival hypotheses will vary from person to person, and there seems to be no way of deciding whose estimate is the most rational one.

What do readers think? How would you estimate the likelihood of the Resurrection?

Recommended Reading

“Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?” Online debate: Jonathan McLatchie (a Christian apologist) vs Michael Alter (a Jewish writer who is currently studying the Torah with Orthodox Jews, as well as with non-Orthodox Jews). Originally aired on the show, Unbelievable, hosted by Justin Brierley, on March 26th 2016.
The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry by Michael Alter. Xlibris, 2015. Meticulously researched, by all accounts. (I haven’t read it yet.) Probably the best skeptical book on the Resurrection available.
The Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. William Lane Craig.
The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus by Dr. William Lane Craig.
The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth by Drs. Tim and Lydia McGrew.
The odds form of Bayes’s Theorem [Updated] by Dr. Lydia McGrew. Extra Thoughts, January 6, 2011.
My Rebuttal to the McGrews – Rewritten by Jeffrey Amos Heavener. May 13, 2011.
Alternate Critical Theories to the Resurrection by Dr. John Weldon. The John Ankerberg Show, 2004.
Origen, Contra Celsum, Book II. Chapters 57-70 provide an excellent historical summary of pagan arguments against the Resurrection of Jesus in the late second century, and Origen’s rebuttal of those arguments in the mid-third century.
Good and bad skepticism: Carl Sagan on extraordinary claims by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, March 15, 2015.
Cavin and Colombetti, miracle-debunkers, or: Can a Transcendent Designer manipulate the cosmos? by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, December 1, 2013.
Hyper-skepticism and “My way or the highway”: Feser’s extraordinary post by Vincent Torley. Uncommon Descent post, July 29, 2014.
Is the Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Better Than Mohammed’s Miracles? by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, March 6, 2012.
Oprah Winfrey’s Half-Sister and The Odds of The Resurrection of Jesus by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, January 21, 2012.
A New Explanation of the Resurrection of Jesus: The Result of Mourning by Gerd Lüdemann, Emeritus Professor of the History and Literature of Early Christianity, Georg-August-University of Göttingen. April 2012.
Michael Licona’s Book is Delusional on a Grand Scale by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, July 22, 2011.
Dr. John Dickson To Me: “You are the ‘Donald Trump’ of pop-atheism” by John Loftus. Debunking Christianity, April 2, 2017.

1,014 thoughts on “Evidence for the Resurrection: Why reasonable people might differ, and why believers aren’t crazy

  1. fifthmonarchyman: don’t reject their hardwired inclination toward theism

    I thought you’d admitted that was utter bullshit a couple of posts ago. (if not, you should have.)

  2. Fmm does his best– even been throwing the kitchen sink in there. Seems to try to get in at least one fallacy per post. But…well, it’s a very silly story he’s trying to defend.

    Better off with quietism, I’d think. Much lower chance of contradicting oneself.

  3. fifthmonarchyman: Claiming that the vast majority of mankind who don’t reject their hardwired inclination toward theism

    You keep making this unwarranted leap. There is no hardwired inclination towards theism.

  4. fifthmonarchyman: Rumraket: I agree, there is quite a jump from “humans naturally see intent and meaning behind events” to “that intent and meaning naturally implies a divine being”.

    You need to define divine. I think you might be assuming the Christian God here.

    I’m not, you are. I don’t take any particular stance on what kind of god is implied by the word “divine being”, or whether there is more than one.

    You’re the one who keeps saying people have a natural inclination towards “theism”, and I simply point out that isn’t true. They have a natural inclination towards ascribing purpose or intent to events and objects, but that does not imply the purposive or intending agent is an athropomorphic-god-of-some-sort.

    The many gods of the animist are much less impressive but they are still divine beings.

    God-belief is a cultural phenomenon. Human beings in conversation with each other, seeking to try to explain a world they don’t understand, have indepdently invented various magical spirit-beings being “behind the curtain”.

    That doesn’t mean inventing gods is somehow “instinctive” any more than shaking hands is. Human beings might have an instinctive social behavior that compels them to engage in some sort of social signaling when they meet other people, but the particular nature of that behavior (in western culture, shaking hands), isn’t itself the instinct.

    In this same way, different cultures have found different ways to ascribe meaning and purpose to the world around them. This has taken many forms, but they’re usually always some form of organism or animal spirit. In western monotheism, God is so obviously a sexually frustrated human male. In other cultures, the “gods” are “great spirits” of crocodiles, birds, monkeys and so on. Heck, in some of them it’s the Sun and moon having been ascribed a godlike sentient status.

    Contrary to the western monotheistic religions, I can almost respect sun-worship. The sun actually exists and holds unimaginable power over us.

  5. Rumraket: They have a natural inclination towards ascribing purpose or intent to events and objects, but that does not imply the purposive or intending agent is an athropomorphic-god-of-some-sort.

    Theism does not require an athropomorphic-god-of-some-sort any ole god will do.

    Rumraket: Contrary to the western monotheistic religions, I can almost respect sun-worship.

    Me too and Ive often said I find pantheism to be particularly attractive

    Theism can take many many forms.

    Atheism on the other hand is the odd man out in that it rejects all of them and argues that our natural inclination to see purpose in nature is mistaken.

    This is a positive position and as such requires evidence.

    peace

  6. Rumraket: There is no hardwired inclination towards theism.

    You keep saying that and then turning around and agreeing with me. 😉
    By theism I don’t mean Christianity or even monotheism.

    I simply mean we are naturally inclined to see purpose in nature and purpose requires a purposer

    peace

  7. Woodbine: Everything that ever happens (including everything written at TSZ) was decreed from before the Creation so any complaints that God isn’t getting the respect he deserves (LOL) are ludicrous.

    God is getting EXACTLY as much respect as he wants.

    What God deserves and what he wants are not the same thing.

    We we desire less than we deserve the difference can be expressed in Grace.
    It works the same for us as for God.

    That is what charity is all about. We let others have we deserve.
    The proper response to charity is gratitude

    peace

  8. John Harshman: Let me note that I am not mocking and scorning god, as I don’t believe there is such a person.

    Of course you are and of course you do

    peace

  9. Woodbine: Demanding gratitude is not a healthy attitude. But what do I know?

    Who said anything about demanding gratitude? If God demanded gratitude you would give it.

    Instead God gives you the opportunity to express the appropriate gratitude and allows you to look foolish when you don’t

    peace

  10. Emil Bock in his book, The Three Years, explains the Easter narrative from the perspective of the four Gospels:

    The artistic fourfoldness of the Gospels meets us nowhere more vividly as in the Easter stories; here the Gospels are more differentiated in their special quality and colouring than anywhere else. They become four separate books, each with its individual character; and the synoptic harmony of the four, with all their differences and apparent contradictions, makes the universal totality of “the Gospel in the four Gospels” appear with greatest clarity.

    The composition of the Easter story in the Gospel of Matthew has a special grandeur. The first Gospel completely surpasses the others in poetic design. A double drama, full of tension, frames the Easter scenes themselves. The cosmic drama of the earthquake prepares and attunes our soul from the beginning for the power and magnitude of the event. Only St Matthew’s Gospel mensions the shocks of the earthquake which, beginning with the afternoon of Good Friday, tore open the ground of the Earth, and continued reverbrating until the morning of Easter Sunday. The cosmic drama at the beginning is followed by a human drama at the end, the deception of the priests at the sepulchre of Joseph of Arimathaea…

    St. Matthew’s Gospel ends with the disciples being instructed by Christ on a mountain. This has a deeper meaning in the Bible than just physically going up a mountain. The mountain figures in Moses receiving the Ten Commandments, the Transfiguration of Christ and now the appearance of the Risen Christ. Likewise ‘house’ amd ‘sea’ or ‘lake’ have meanings which covey more than just a physical location.

    Bock continues:

    In St. Mark, the framework of the external dramatic events is missing: an inward dramatic quality takes its place. After the meeting with the angel at the tomb, we see the women return to the room where the disciples are united. It is the Coenaculum, the room of the Washing of the Feet and the Last Supper; the sacred time honoured place on Mount Sion; the centre of the spiritual history of humanity from times immemorial…

    St Matthew leads to the top of the mountain, St. Mark leads into the house. In contrast to the dramatic study of St. Matthew, a great and wonderful inwardness lives in the Gospel of St. Luke. The transition from outside to inside which takes place in passing from the first to the second Gospel is further deepened. This transition dominates the story of the two disciples who walk to Emmaus, which follows the scene at the tomb. For these disciples too, the real meeting with the Risen One, by which they recognise Him, occurs only at the moment when they have entered the house at the end of the way and have set down at the table at twilight, in the stillness of the house…

    St. John presents us with a very great wealth of Easter scenes. Even the prelude at the tomb develops into a whole drama. Mary Magdalene comes to the tomb; no angel is there to mitigate the shock which she feels at the sight of the empty tomb. She walks back all the way to find the disciples. Two of the disciples seized with great anxiety, run through the whole city until they come to the tomb, but they also find it empty; no spiritual figure appears to them; they have to leave, taking with them an apparently insoluble riddle; in silence they return to the Coenaculum. Mary Magdalene is left alone at the tomb. Only now when she stands at the tomb for the second time, her soul is opened up for the presence of spiritual beings who are there; and the first meeting with the angels grows into the first meeting with the Risen One Himself, Who appears to her as the gardener. And once more, but now charged with increasing content, the transition from outside to inside takes place.. We find ourselves again within the room of the Last Supper, and share in the experience of how the Risen One manifests Himself to the disciples…

    The Gospel of John carries forward the metamorphosis of the Easter prelude at the tomb. The significant transformations and amplifications in the meetings with the angels of the first three Gospels here reach their climax. After the terror of the earthquake, the amazement at the open tomb, the anxiety over the empty grave, it is now tears of love which open the eye of Mary Magdalene’s soul for the angels. Then the meeting with the Gardener forms the transition from the angelic forecourt to the actual Temple of Easter.

    The Gospel of John then leads once again to the outer experiences. Bock experiences the unity of the Gospel narratives:

    We can now discern the important aspect in the wonderful composition of the Gospels as a whole. In the scenes which follow the prelude at the tomb, we are led in the sequence of St. Matthew to St. John, through three archetypal settings; on the mountain, in the house and on the sea. Apparently physical landscape is described, but in fact we are shown regions of the soul which we have to traverse in order to meet the Risen One. The Gospel taken in its entirety in the four Gospels, has given the first pictorial hint of His sphere.

    Dissect the Gospels in order to find contradictions and you will find contradictions. Try to understand them as a harmonious, artistic composition and you will discover their unity.

  11. CharlieM,

    What’s the ‘unity’ to be found in one ‘witness’ mentioning an earthquake, and that alleged event somehow slipping everybody else’s mind.

    One side simply reports what the book actually says. The other finds it necessary to ‘harmonize.’ Why might that be, I wonder. Too bad Johnnie Cochran is not around to ask. I bet he’d know.

  12. fifthmonarchyman:
    Instead God gives you the opportunity to express the appropriate gratitude and allows you to look foolish when you don’t

    peace

    How does this harmonize with your belief about free will?

  13. fifthmonarchyman: I simply mean we are naturally inclined to see purpose in nature and purpose requires a purposer

    Purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    The supernatural is one reason

  14. walto:

    What’s the ‘unity’ to be found in one ‘witness’ mentioning an earthquake, and that alleged event somehow slipping everybody else’s mind.

    And not just one earthquake but two, plus a mass resurrection!

    First earthquake, plus dead people wandering the streets of Jerusalem:

    50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

    54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

    Matthew 27:50-54, NIV

    Second earthquake:

    After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

    2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

    Matthew 28:1-2, NIV

    Two earthquakes plus a zombie apocalypse, yet only the author of Matthew thought any of this was worth mentioning.

    Inerrantists must be the most gullible people on the planet.

  15. colewd:

    You agree with FFM because you’re a creationist.

    I agree with FFM because the example you cited was not a real contradiction.It simply varied on who was mentioned as witnessing the empty tomb.One did not say Mary was there and the other Mary was not there.

    The number of people there, whether or not the stone was in place, and the number of angels all vary among the stories. They are not consistent. They contradict each other.

    I don’t have any reason to support the bible as being inerrant, if you find real errors I will accept those.Honestly, the document you cited seemed like BS at first pass.

    By all means answer the questions posed in it, then.

  16. fifthmonarchyman:
    I am not claiming that just because we are hardwired to theism that that makes theism true.

    You have not demonstrated that humans are “hardwired to theism”.

    I’m only pointing out that atheism is not the default worldview it’s a minority position that requires a person to abandon his natural hardwired inferences.

    Even if your spurious claim were supported, that wouldn’t change the differences between theism and atheism. Theists believe in a god or gods. They are making the claim that such entities exist. Atheists lack belief in a god or gods. They are making no claims.

    Those making the positive claim have the burden of proof.

  17. fifthmonarchyman:

    The Christian bible is far from inerrant.

    Support that claim or retract it

    I have, repeatedly. We’ve discussed the differing orders of creation in Genesis 1 and 2, how Judas died, what Judas did with the 30 pieces of silver, how Saul died, and I provided you with links to literally hundreds of other contradictions. The fact that your childhood indoctrination has damaged you so badly that you would rather lie to yourself than see the objective evidence does not make that evidence go away.

    We haven’t even gotten to the incorrect science in your bible. Do you think that hares chew the cud? Do you believe there was a literal world wide flood that killed all but eight people?

  18. fifthmonarchyman: Atheism is just the position that gods don’t exist.

    No, it is a lack of belief in a god or gods. You’ve been corrected on this before.

    It is the contradictory of the position that god(s) exist.

    No, you’re talking about the gnostic/agnostic distinction. Theism is the belief that a god or gods exist. Atheism is the lack of that belief. That is the actual opposite.

    Now you might not have an opinion on the matter at all. You might be agnostic. Agnosticism is not a position at all it’s just a starting point for further inquiry.

    No, agnosticism is a lack of knowledge. Gnosticism is a claim of knowledge. One can be an agnostic-theist, a gnostic-theist, an agnostic-atheist, or a gnostic-atheist. I personally know no one in the latter category.

  19. keiths:
    Woodbine, to fifth:

    Even fifth seems to think his god is a prick.

    When asked about this verse…

    If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

    Deuteronomy 25:11-12, NIV

    …fifth’s “defense” was:

    Of course that punishment was only relevant to those few folks who lived in the ancient pre-exile nation of Israel (Mathew 5:38-39)

    That’s persuasive.God was an asshole in this case, but not to everyone.Only to “those few folks” who had the bad luck of being among God’s “chosen people.”

    That’s similar to how he trivialized slavery as “temporary and local”. His religion is reprehensible.

  20. fifthmonarchyman:

    John Harshman: Let me note that I am not mocking and scorning god, as I don’t believe there is such a person.

    Of course you are and of course you do

    The rules require you to assume other people are posting in good faith. You are calling John a liar here. I suggest you apologize and retract your accusation.

    Please abide by the rules or your comments will be moved to Guano.

  21. Patrick: The rules require you to assume other people are posting in good faith.

    The way you are littering this thread shows that you have no good faith yourself. Get busy guanoing yourself.

  22. newton: Purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    The supernatural is one reason

    Yes, it’s really important to keep track of the distinction between facts and explanations, as well as the distinction between cognition and reality.

    There’s a distinction, made popular by Daniel Kahneman, between System 1 cognition and System 2 cognition. System 1 cognition is fast, automatic, spontaneous and not very accessible to reflection. System 2 cognition is deliberate, slow, and accessible to reflection. (I think this parallels Tamar Gendler’s distinction between “aliefs” and “beliefs” as well as other work on “online” and “offline” cognition.)

    Suppose — and I don’t know if there’s evidence of this — that human beings tend towards teleological thinking in their System 1 judgments even when, at a System 2 level, they understand that there are non-teleological mechanisms causally responsible for what they experience as purposive.

    There is some evidence from psychology that this is the case, though we don’t have enough data to know if this is a human universal or not. Most psychological experiments are done on people who come from W.E.I.R.D. societies (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic), so it’s really hard to figure out which patterns are human universals and which ones aren’t.

    But even if System 1 thinking were teleological and persistent in the face of modern scientific education and training, that would not tell us anything at all about whether teleology is real or the best explanation for it.

  23. Patrick:
    The rules require you to assume other people are posting in good faith.You are calling John a liar here.I suggest you apologize and retract your accusation.

    Please abide by the rules or your comments will be moved to Guano.

    I disagree with this and I’m taking it up in Moderation.

  24. Kantian Naturalist: Suppose — and I don’t know if there’s evidence of this — that human beings tend towards teleological thinking in their System 1 judgments even when, at a System 2 level, they understand that there are non-teleological mechanisms causally responsible for what they experience as purposive.

    The study Fifth cited as support for hardwiring of theism found those results. When ask to respond quickly scientists and non-scientists tended toward teleological explanations.

  25. newton: The study Fifth cited as support for hardwiring of theism found those results. When ask to respond quickly scientists and non-scientists tended toward teleological explanations.

    That’s surely interesting. And it would be a really interesting result if it held up across cross-cultural comparisons. It still wouldn’t tell us anything about whether theism or atheism is true, if either of them is.

    The more interesting question to me is, “why is the teleological stance adaptive, to the point that it is embedded in System 1 cognition?” But thinking about that question involves getting into cognitive science and evolutionary theory.

  26. fifthmonarchyman: Of course you are and of course you do

    peace

    At the very least you need to explain how it’s possible that I am not doing what I think I’m doing and don’t believe what I think I believe.

  27. Patrick: No, it is a lack of belief in a god or gods. You’ve been corrected on this before.

    No it’s not. You’ve been corrected on this before.

  28. Patrick: No, agnosticism is a lack of knowledge. Gnosticism is a claim of knowledge. One can be an agnostic-theist, a gnostic-theist, an agnostic-atheist, or a gnostic-atheist. I personally know no one in the latter category.

    I’m just sorry you didn’t post your nice color cartoon again as proof.

  29. Erik: The way you are littering this thread shows that you have no good faith yourself. Get busy guanoing yourself.

    He shows on nearly every thread what a sorry excuse for a moderator he is. As Lizzie is obviously never coming back, the other two should relieve him.

  30. John Harshman: At the very least you need to explain how it’s possible that I am not doing what I think I’m doing and don’t believe what I think I believe.

    “Because it says so in the Bible” is the best you’re going to get, I’m afraid.

    According to FMM’s sect atheists don’t exist.

  31. Woodbine: According to FMM’s sect atheists don’t exist.

    FMM’s reasoning (as I understand it) comes down to this:

    1. Everyone accepts that assertions have truth-value (some are true, some are false, and perhaps some are indeterminate).
    2. To accept that some sentences are true is to believe in Truth.
    3. But God is Truth.
    4. Therefore, everyone believes in God.

    His chief difficulty is that when someone rejects (3), his response is to say, “oh, so you don’t believe that God is God.”

    He also indulges in an unfortunate reification (from truth as a relational property between assertions and the world to Truth as an intrinsic property of reality) in getting from (1) to (2).

    These problems have been pointed out to him many times, and he’s shown no interest (or frankly, ability) to understand these criticisms. Which is in a way too bad, but it just makes his view deeply foolish. Having a foolish position is not a violation of the Rules.

  32. walto: I’m just sorry you didn’t post your nice color cartoon again as proof.

    Quite frankly, this is getting old. Playing definition nazi reminds me of creationists who prove they are right with dictionary citations.

    Patrick is too polite to say this, but telling people that they can’t use or intend a word in the way they wish it to be interpreted is pretty damned close to violating the fundamental site rule.

    Everyone by now knows how Patrick intends the word. Your mileage is different.

  33. petrushka: Quite frankly, this is getting old. Playing definition nazi reminds me of creationists who prove they are right with dictionary citations.

    Patrick is too polite to say this, but telling people that they can’t use or intend a word in the way they wish it to be interpreted is pretty damned close to violating thefundamental site rule.

    Everyone by now knows how Patrick intends the word. Your mileage is different.

    That all seems fine, but then the exact same point holds for FMM as well. He insists that everyone believes in God because of his idiosyncratic uses of “true”, “truth”, and “God”.

    If Patrick gets a pass from walto, then FMM gets a pass from Patrick.

  34. petrushka: Quite frankly, this is getting old. Playing definition nazi reminds me of creationists who prove they are right with dictionary citations.

    Patrick is too polite to say this, but telling people that they can’t use or intend a word in the way they wish it to be interpreted is pretty damned close to violating thefundamental site rule.

    Everyone by now knows how Patrick intends the word. Your mileage is different.

    Bullshit, petrushka. You should aim this post at patrick. HE’S THE ONE INSISTING THAT HIS DEFINITION IS THE ONE THAT MUST BE USED. You’ve confused this simple point, what, 20 times now?

  35. Kantian Naturalist: That all seems fine, but then the exact same point holds for FMM as well. He insists that everyone believes in God because of his idiosyncratic uses of “true”, “truth”, and “God”.

    If Patrick gets a pass from walto, then FMM gets a pass from Patrick.

    No. Patrick is the one who keeps insisting that everybody has to use “atheist” as it’s described in his little cartoon. We had a 5,000 post thread on this, and it simply didn’t matter to the guy that other people prefer different definitions.

  36. newton: First, walto will never give Patrick a pass.Second, fmm remarks were to John.

    I’ll give Patrick “a pass” when he begins to understand that (i) there’s nothing particularly special about the ‘evidence’ that he has for his own (IMO crackpot, but never mind that) views; and (ii) there’s nothing particularly special about the definitions that he prefers to those that others prefer (color charts are not dispositive in that area).

    I’m not holding my breath, however, and I suggest you don’t either.

  37. walto: No. Patrick is the one who keeps insisting that everybody has to use “atheist” as it’s described in his little cartoon. We had a 5,000 post thread on this, and it simply didn’t matter to the guy that other people prefer different definitions.

    I understand all that, and I don’t get Patrick’s distinctions either.

    My point was that if we endorse a Humpty-Dumpty theory of meaning (“when I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean!”), then that’s going to work for Patrick and for FMM.

    If we’re going to permit Patrick his funky meanings for “belief” and “knowledge” in his quadripartite distinctions which he insists that everyone else use, then we should also permit FMM his funky meanings for “truth” and “God” which he insists that everyone else use.

    Conversely, if FMM is breaking the rules because his “everyone believes in God, whether they know it or not” follows from the idiosyncratic meanings he assigns to “truth” and “God”, then Patrick is doing the same thing.

  38. Kantian Naturalist,

    Yes. Two peas in a pod, they are. But, and I guess you agree with this(?) while both are often confused, silly, repetitive, robotic, annoying, and absolutely sure that everything they believe is true, at least FMM is not a bully.

  39. Kantian Naturalist: The more interesting question to me is, “why is the teleological stance adaptive, to the point that it is embedded in System 1 cognition?” But thinking about that question involves getting into cognitive science and evolutionary theory.

    Perhaps in system 1 the basis for explanation is based on an emotional logic which has advantage of quicker response time and less complex , it might be interesting to determine if children are primarily using system 1.

  40. walto: I’ll give Patrick “a pass” when he begins to understand that (i) there’s nothing particularly special about the ‘evidence’ that he has for his own (IMO crackpot, but never mind that) views; and (ii) there’s nothing particularly special about the definitions that he prefers to those that others prefer (color charts are not dispositive in that area).

    I’m not holding my breath, however, and I suggest you don’t either.

    Like I said,never.

  41. walto:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    Yes.Two peas in a pod, they are.But, and I guess you agree with this(?) while both are often confused, silly, repetitive, robotic, annoying, and absolutely sure that everything they believe is true, at least FMM is not a bully.

    Also, only one is a moderator.

  42. walto: Bullshit, petrushka. You should aim this post at patrick. HE’S THE ONE INSISTING THAT HIS DEFINITION IS THE ONE THAT MUST BE USED. You’ve confused this simple point, what, 20 times now?

    Looks like the guys in the Star Trek episode, “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”. to me. The relevant question is what do I mean if I say i am an atheist. No one can define what it means to me except myself.

    I have tried on all the usual words, and none of them seem fully correct, so I pick one and say what I mean by it.

    I agree with Patrick’s matrix. it makes sense to me. I don’t care if other people agree or disagree. The point is to communicate. But you can’t communicate with people who don’t want to understand your point of view.

  43. petrushka: Looks like the guys in the Star Trek episode, “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”. to me. The relevant question is what do I mean if I say i am an atheist. No one can define what it means to me except myself.

    I have tried on all the usual words, and none of them seem fully correct, so I pick one and say what I mean by it.

    I agree with Patrick’s matrix. it makes sense to me. I don’t care if other people agree or disagree. The point is to communicate. But you can’t communicate with people who don’t want to understand your point of view.

    As I’ve said numerous times before, it’s not a huge problem if people disagree on definitions, so long as everyone understands everyone else. However, each time Patrick insists that his definition is the only possible correct one, and I object that some people prefer other ones, you feel the necessity to jump in to attack ME.

    That behavior is fairly weird, IMO.

  44. walto: As I’ve said numerous times before, it’s not a huge problem if people disagree on definitions, so long as everyone understands everyone else.However, each time Patrick insists that his definition is the only possible correct one, and I object that some people prefer other ones, you feel the necessity to jump in to attack ME.

    That behavior is fairly weird, IMO.

    I mean, I know Patrick is the one who is the bully with the gun collection, but still.

  45. newton: How does this harmonize with your belief about free will?

    I a compatibilist. I have no problem with freewill. I just hold that freewill is compatible with determinism.

    It’s libertarian freewill that is for sissies 😉

    peace

  46. newton: Purpose: the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    The supernatural is one reason

    when the thing that exhibits purpose is nature itself the only available reason is the supernatural.

    peace

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