ev

Recent discussions of genetic algorithms here and Dave Thomas’ evisceration of Winston Ewert’s review of several genetic algorithms at The Panda’s Thumb prompted me to dust off my notes and ev implementation.

Introduction

In the spring of 1984, Thomas Schneider submitted his Ph.D thesis demonstrating that the information content of DNA binding sites closely approximates the information required to identify the sites in the genome. In the week between submitting his thesis and defending it, he wrote a software simulation to confirm that the behavior he observed in biological organisms could arise from a subset of known evolutionary mechanisms. Specifically, starting from a completely random population, he used only point mutations and simple fitness-based selection to create the next generation.

The function of ev is to explain and model an observation about natural systems.
— Thomas D. Schneider

Even with this grossly simplified version of evolution, Schneider’s simulator, tersely named ev, demonstrated that the information content of a DNA binding site, R_{sequence}, consistently and relatively quickly evolves to be approximately equal to the information required to identify the binding sites in a given genome, R_{frequency}, just as is seen in the biological systems that were the subject of his thesis.

Schneider didn’t publish the details of ev until 2000, in response to creationist claims that evolution is incapable of generating information.

Core Concepts

Before discussing the implementation, it’s important to understand exactly what is being simulated. Dr. Schneider’s thesis is quite readable. The core concepts of ev are binding sites, R_{sequence}, and R_{frequency}.

Binding Sites

A binding site is a location on a strand of DNA or RNA where a protein can attach (bind). Binding sites consist of a sequence of nucleotides that together provide the necessary chemical bonds to hold the protein.

A good example of binding sites in action is the synthesis of messenger RNA (mRNA) by RNA polymerase (RNAP). RNAP binds to a set of a few tens of base pairs on a DNA strand which triggers a series of chemical reactions that result in mRNA. This mRNA is then picked up by a ribosome (which also attaches to a binding site) that transcribes a protein from it.

The bases that make up a binding site are best described by a probability distribution, they are not a fixed set requiring an exact match.

R_{frequency}

R_{frequency} is the simplest of the two information measures in ev. Basically, it is the number of bits required to find one binding site out of set of binding sites in a genome of a certain length. For a genome of length G with \gamma binding sites, this is -log_2(\gamma / G)

For example, consider a genome of 1000 base pairs containing 5 binding sites. The average distance between binding sites is 200 bases, so the information needed to find them is -log_{2}200 which is approximately 7.64 bits.

R_{sequence}

R_{sequence} is the amount of information in the binding site itself. There are two problems with computing R_{sequence}. The first is the definition of “information.” Schneider uses Shannon information, a clearly defined, well-respected metric with demonstrated utility in the study of biological systems.

The second problem is that binding sites for the same protein don’t consist of exactly the same sequence of bases. Aligned sequences are frequently used to identify the bases that are most common at each location in the binding site, but they don’t tell the whole story. An aligned sequence that shows an A in the first position may reflect a set of actual sites of which 70% have A in the first position, 25% C, and 5% G. R_{sequence} must take into account this distribution.

The Shannon uncertainty of a base in a binding site is:

(1)   \begin{equation*} H_g = \sum_{b}^{A,C,G,T}(p(b)log_{2}p(b)) \end{equation*}

where p(b) is the probability of a base b at that location in the genome. This will be approximately 0.25, equal probability for all bases, for the initial, randomly generated genome. The initial uncertainty at a binding site is therefore:

(2)   \begin{equation*} H_{before} = H_{g}L = 4(0.25)(log_{2}(0.25)L = -2L \end{equation*}

where L is the width of the site.

R_{sequence}, the increase in information, is then H_{after} - H_{before}, where:

(3)   \begin{equation*} H_{after} = \sum_{l = 1}^{L}(H_{g}(l)) \end{equation*}

computed from the observed probabilities.

There is one additional complexity with these formulas. Because of the small sample size, an adjustment must be computed for H_g:

(4)   \begin{equation*} H_g = \sum_{l = 1}^{L}(E(H_{nb}) - H_{g}(L)) \end{equation*}

or

(5)   \begin{equation*} H_{after} = \sum_{l = 1}^{L}\bigg((e(n(l)) - \sum_{b}^{A,C,G,T}f(b,l) log_{2}f(b,l)\bigg) \end{equation*}

measured in bits per site.

The math behind the small sample adjustment is explained in Appendix 1 of Schneider’s thesis. Approximate values for E(H_{nb}) for binding site widths from 1 to 50 are available pre-computed by a program available on Schneider’s site:

For a random sequence, R_{sequence} will be near 0. This will evolve to R_{frequency} over an ev run.

Schneider’s ev Implementation

Schneider’s implementation is a fairly standard genetic algorithm, with an interesting fitness function. The virtual genomes contain, by default, 256 potential binding sites. The genomes are composed of characters from an alphabet of four letters (A, C, G, and T). The default number of optimal binding sites, \gamma, is 16. The locations of these sites are randomly generated at the beginning of each run and remain the same throughout the run. Given this configuration, R_{frequency}, the amount of information required to identify one of these sites in a genome of length G = 256 is -log_2(\gamma / G) which equals 4. Per Schneider’s Ph.D thesis, R_{sequence}, the information in the binding site itself, should evolve to and remain at approximately this value during a run.

To determine the number of binding sites actually present, a portion of the genome codes for a recognizer as well as being part of the set of potential binding sites. This recognizer, which is subject to the same mutation and selection as the rest of the genome, is applied at each base to determine if that base is the start of a binding site. If a base is not correctly identified as the start of a binding site, the fitness of the genome is decreased by one. If a base is incorrectly identified as the start of a binding site, the fitness of the genome is also decreased by one. Schneider notes that changing this weighting may affect the rate at which R_{sequence} converges to R_{frequency} but not the final result.

After all genomes are evaluated, the half with the lowest fitness are eliminated and the remaining are duplicated with mutation. Schneider uses a relatively small population size of 64.

The recognizer is encoded as a weight matrix of 4xL two’s-complement integers, where L is the length of a binding site (6 by default). Schneider notes that:

At first it may seem that this is insufficient to simulate the complex processes of transcription, translation, protein folding and DNA sequence recognition found in cells. However the success of the simulation, as shown below, demonstrates that the form of the genetic apparatus does not affect the computed information measures. For information theorists and physicists this emergent mesoscopic property will come as no surprise because information theory is extremely general and does not depend on the physical mechanism. It applies equally well to telephone conversations, telegraph signals, music and molecular biology.

Since ev genomes consist only of A, C, G, and T, these need to be translated to integers for the weight matrix. Schneider uses the straightforward mapping of (A, C, G, T) to (00, 01, 10, 11). The default number of bases for each integer is Bp = 5. Given these settings, AAAAA encodes the value 0, AAAAC encodes 1, and TTTTT encodes -1 (by two’s-complement rules).

When evaluating a genome, the first 4 x L x Bp bases are read into the 4 x L weight matrix. The next Bp bases represent a threshold value that is used to determine whether or not the value returned by the recognizer is a binding site match. This is also a two’s-complement integer with the same mapping. The recognizer is then applied from the first base in the genome to the last that could possibly be the start of a binding site (given the binding site length).

It’s worth re-emphasizing that the recognizer and the threshold are part of the genome containing the binding sites. The length of the full genome is therefore G + L - 1 bases, with only the first G bases being potential binding sites.

The recognizer calculates a total value for the potential site starting at a given point by summing the values of the matching bases in the weight matrix. The weight matrix contains a value for each base at each position in the site, so for a binding site length of 7 and a potential binding site consisting of the bases GATTACA, the total value is:

w[0]['G'] + w[1]['A'] + w[2]['T'] + w[3]['T'] + w[4]['A'] + w[5]['C'] + w[6]['A']

If this value exceeds the threshold, the recognizer identifies the bases as a binding site.

This implementation of the recognizer is an interesting way of encapsulating the biological reality that binding sites don’t always consist of exactly the same sequence of bases. Schneider notes, though, that “the exact form of the recognition mechanism is immaterial because of the generality of information theory.”

Schneider’s Results

Using his default settings of:

  • Genome length: G = 256
  • Number of binding sites: \gamma = 16
  • Binding site length: L = 6
  • Bases per integer: Bp = 5

Schneider found that:

When the program starts, the genomes all contain random sequence, and the information content of the binding sites, R_{sequence}, is close to zero. Remarkably, the cyclic mutation and selection process leads to an organism that makes no mistakes in only 704 generations (Fig. 2a). Although the sites can contain a maximum of 2L = 12 bits, the information content of the binding sites rises during this time until it oscillates around the predicted information content, R_{frequency} = 4 bits . . . .

The Creationist Response

30 years after the original implantation and 16 years after it was published, Intelligent Design Creationists (IDCists) are still attempting to refute ev and are still getting it wrong.

Dembski In 2001

In 2001, William Dembski claimed that ev does not demonstrate an information increase and further claimed that Schneider “smuggled in” information via his rule for handling ties in fitness. Schneider reviewed and rebutted the first claim and tested Dembski’s second claim, conclusively demonstrating it to be false.

Schneider wryly addresses this in the ev FAQ:

Does the Special Rule smuggle information into the ev program?

This claim, by William Dembski, is answered in the on-line paper Effect of Ties on the evolution of Information by the ev program. Basically, changing the rule still gives an information gain, so Dembski’s prediction was wrong.

Has Dembski ever acknowledged this error?

Not to my knowledge.

Don’t scientists admit their errors?

Generally, yes, by publishing a retraction explaining what happened.

Montanez, Ewert, Dembski, and Marks In 2010

Montanez, Ewert, Dembski, and Marks published A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information in the IDCist’s pseudo-science journal BIO-Complexity in 2010. Despite its title, the paper doesn’t demonstrate any understanding of the ev algorithm or what it demonstrates:

  • The authors spend a significant portion of the paper discussing the efficiency of the ev algorithm. This is a red herring — nature is profligate and no biologist, including Schneider, claims that evolutionary mechanisms are the most efficient way of achieving the results observed.
  • Related to the efficiency misdirection, the authors suggest alternative algorithms that have no biological relevance instead of addressing the actual algorithm used by ev.
  • The authors do not use Shannon information, instead substituting their idiosyncratic “active information”, including dependencies on Dembski’s concept of “Conservation of Information” which has been debunked by Wesley Elsberry and Jeffrey Shallit in Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”, among others.
  • The authors note that “A common source of active information is a software oracle”. By recognizing that an oracle enables evolutionary mechanisms to work in software, they are admitting that those same mechanisms can explain what we observe in biological systems because the real world environment is just such an oracle. The environment provides information about what works and what doesn’t by ensuring that organisms less suited to it will tend to leave fewer descendants.
  • The authors repeatedly claim that the “perceptron” used as a recognizer makes the ev algorithm more efficient. Their attempted explanation of why this is the case completely ignores the actual implementation of ev. They seem so caught up in Schneider’s description of the recognizer as a perceptron that they miss the fact that it’s nothing more than a weight matrix that models the biological reality that a binding site is not a fixed set of bases.

Basically the paper is a rehash of concepts the authors have discussed in previous papers combined with the hope that some of it will be applicable to ev. None of it is.

Schneider soundly refuted the paper in Dissection of “A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information”. He succinctly summarized the utter failure of the authors to address the most important feature of ev:

They do not compute the information in the binding sites. So they didn’t evaluate the relevant information (R_{sequence}) at all.

In a response to that refutation, Marks concedes that “Regardless, while we may have different preferred techniques for measuring information, we agree that the ev genome does in fact gain information.”

After that damning admission, Marks still doubles down on his spurious claim that the “Hamming oracle” makes ev more efficient:

Schneider addresses the hamming oracle issue by assuming that nature provides a correct fitness function (a hamming function) that allows for positive selection in the direction of our target. He argues that this fitness is based on a

biologically sensible criteria: having functional DNA binding sites and not having extra ones.

But this describes a target; this is the desired goal of the simulation. The fitness function actually being used is a distance to this target. This distance makes efficient information extraction possible.

That’s not a target. It provides no details about what a solution would look like or how to reduce the distance measured, it simply indicates how far away a genome is from being a solution. In fact, it does less than that because it doesn’t provide any information about the difference between an existing recognizer and an ideal recognizer. It also says nothing at all about the relationship between R_{frequency} and R_{sequence}.

Even as he tries to salvage the tatters of his paper, Marks makes another concession:

Reaching that point requires a particular shape to the fitness landscape to guide evolution.

He admits again that evolution does work in certain environments. The real world is one of those.

Nothing in Marks’ response changes the accuracy of Schneider’s summary in his refutation:

Aside from their propensity to veer away from the actual biological situation, the main flaw in this paper is the apparent misunderstanding of what ev is doing, namely what information is being measured and that there are two different measures. The authors only worked with R_{frequency} and ignored R_{sequence}. They apparently didn’t compute information from the sequences. But it is the increase of R_{sequence} that is of primary importance to understand. Thanks to Chris Adami, we clearly understand that information gained in genomes reflects ‘information’ in the environment. I put environmental ‘information’ in quotes because it is not clear that information is meaningful when entirely outside the context of a living organism. An organism interprets its surroundings and that ‘information’ guides the evolution of its genome.

Ewert in 2014

Winston Ewert published Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible Complexity in Computer Simulations in 2014, again in the IDCists’ house journal BIO-Complexity. This paper constituted 25% of the output of that august publication in that year. Ewert reviewed Avida, ev, Dave Thomas’ Steiner Trees, a geometric algorithm by Suzanne Sadedin, and Adrian Thompson’s Digital Ears, attempting to demonstrate that none of them generated irreducible complexity.

Michael Behe defined “irreducible complexity” in his 1996 book Darwin’s Black Box:

By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.

Dave Thomas has shredded Ewert’s discussion of Steiner Trees, demonstrating that Ewert addressed a much simpler problem (spanning trees) instead.

Richard B. Hoppe has similarly destroyed Ewert’s claims about Avida.

Schneider does explicitly claim that ev demonstrates the evolution of irreducible complexity:

The ev model can also be used to succinctly address two other creationist arguments. First, the recognizer gene and its binding sites co-evolve, so they become dependent on each other and destructive mutations in either immediately lead to elimination of the organism. This situation fits Behe’s definition of ‘irreducible complexity’ exactly . . . .

Ewert quotes this claim and attempts to refute it with:

It appears that Schneider has misunderstood the definition of irreducible complexity. Elimination of the organism would appear to refer to being killed by the model’s analogue to natural selection. Given destructive mutations, an organism will perform less well than its competitors and “die.” However, this is not what irreducible complexity is referring to by “effectively ceasing to function.” It is true that in death, an organism certainly ceases to function. However, Behe’s requirement is that:

If one removes a part of a clearly defined, irreducibly complex system, the system itself immediately and necessarily ceases to function.

The system must cease to function purely by virtue of the missing part, not by virtue of selection.

It appears that Ewert is the one with the misunderstanding here. If there is a destructive mutation in the genes that code for the recognizer, none of the binding sites will be recognized and, in the biological systems that ev models, the protein will not bind and the resulting capability will not be provided. It will “immediately and necessarily” cease to function. This makes the system irreducibly complex by Behe’s definition.

Binding sites are somewhat less brittle, simply because there are more of them. However, if there is a destructive mutation in one or more of the binding sites, the organism with that mutation will be less fit than others in the same population. In a real biological system, the function provided by the protein binding will be degraded at best and eliminated at worst. The organism will have effectively ceased to function. It is this lack of function that results in the genome being removed from the gene pool in the next generation.

Given that the recognizer and binding sites form a set of “well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function” and that “the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning”, ev meets Behe’s definition of an irreducibly complex system.

The IDCist Discovery Institute touted Ewert’s paper as evidence of “an Excellent Decade for Intelligent Design” in the ten years following the Dover trial. That case, of course, is the one that showed conclusively that ID is simply another variant of creationism and a transparent attempt to violate the separation of church and state in the United States. If Ewert’s paper is among the top achievements of the IDC movement in the past ten years then it’s clear that reality-based observers still have no reason to take any IDCist pretensions to scientific credibility seriously. The political threat posed by intelligent design and other variants of creationism is, unfortunately, still a significant problem.

An Alternative ev Implementation

I have implemented a variant of Dr. Schneider’s ev in order to reproduce his results and explore the impact of some alternative approaches. My version of ev uses the GA Engine I wrote to solve Dave Thomas’ Steiner Network design challenge. This engine operates on bit strings rather than the characters used by Dr. Schneider’s implementation.

As described in the GA engine documentation, applying the GA engine to a problem consists of following a few simple steps:

  1. Create a class to represent the characteristics of the problem

    The problem class ev-problem contains the parameters for genome length (G), number of binding sites (\gamma), binding site length (L), and bases per integer (Bp).

  2. Implement a method to create instances of the problem class

    The make-ev-problem function creates an instance of ev-problem.

  3. Implement the required generic functions for the problem:
    • genome-length

    The genome length is (G + L - 1) * 2, using two bits to encode each base pair.

    • fitness

    The fitness of a genome is the number of mistakes made by the recognizer, the total of missed and spurious binding sites.

    • fitness-comparator

    This problem uses the greater-comparator provided by the GA engine.

  4. Implement a terminator function

    This problem uses the generation-terminator provided by the GA engine, stopping after a specified number of generations.

  5. Run solve

Initial Results

In my implementation, Schneider’s default settings and selection mechanism are configured like this:

(defparameter *default-ev-problem*
  (make-ev-problem 256 16 6 5))

(let* ((problem *default-ev-problem*)
       (gene-pool (solve problem 64 (generation-terminator 3000)
                         :selection-method :truncation-selection
                         :mutation-count 1
                         :mutate-parents t
                         :interim-result-writer #'ev-interim-result-writer))
       (best-genome (most-fit-genome gene-pool (fitness-comparator problem))))
  (format t "~%Best = ~F~%Average = ~F~%~%"
          (fitness problem best-genome)
          (average-fitness problem gene-pool)))

This creates an instance of the ev-problem with 256 potential binding sites, 16 actual binding sites, a binding site width of 6 bases, and 5 bases per integer. It then evolves this population for 3000 generations using truncation selection (taking the top 50% of each gene pool to seed the next generation), changing one base in each genome, including the parent genomes, per generation.

The results are identical to those reported by Schneider. Over ten runs, each with a different random seed, the population evolves to have at least one member with no mistakes within 533 to 2324 generations (the mean was 1243.6 with a standard deviation of 570.91). R_{sequence} approaches R_{frequency} throughout this time. As maximally fit genomes take over the population, R_{sequence} oscillates around R_{frequency}.

While my implementation lacks the GUI provided by Schneider’s Java version, the R_{sequence} values output by ev-interim-result-writer show a similar distribution.

Variations

There are many configuration dimensions that can be explored with ev. I tested a few, including the effect of population size, selection method, mutation rate, and some problem-specific parameters.

Population Size

Increasing the population size from 64 to 256 but leaving the rest of the settings the same reduces the number of generations required to produce a maximally fit genome to between 251 and 2255 with a mean of 962.23 and a standard deviation of 792.11. A population size of 1000 results in a range of 293 to 2247 generations with a lower mean (779.4) and standard deviation (689.68), at a higher computation cost.

Selection Method

Schneider’s ev implementation uses truncation selection, using the top 50% of a population to seed the next generation. Using tournament selection with a population of 250, a tournament size of 50, and a mutation rate of 0.5% results in a maximally fit individual arising within 311 to 4561 generations (with a mean of 2529.9 and standard deviation of 1509.01). Increasing the population size to 500 gives a range of 262 to 4143 with a mean of 1441.2 and standard deviation of 1091.95.

Adding crossover to tournament selection with the other parameters remaining the same does not seem to significantly change the convergence rate.

Changing the tournament selection to mutate the parents as well as the children of the next generation does, however, have a significant impact. Using the same population size of 500 and mutation rate of 0.5% but mutating the parents results in a maximally fit individual within 114 to 1455 generations, with a mean of 534.1 and a standard deviation of 412.01.

Roulette wheel selection took much longer to converge, probably due to the fact that a large percentage of random genomes have identical fitness because no binding sites, real or spurious, are matched. This makes the areas of the wheel nearly equal for all genomes in a population.

Mutation Rate

In the original ev, exactly one base of 261 in each genome is modified per generation. This explores the fitness space immediately adjacent to the genome and is essentially simple hill climbing. This mutation rate is approximately 0.2% when applied to a string of bases represented by two bits each.

Changing the mutation count to a mutation rate of 1% results in ev taking an order of magnitude more generations to produce a maximally fit individual. Rates of 0.5% and 0.2% result in convergence periods closer to those seen with a single mutation per genome, both with truncation and tournament selection, particularly with larger population sizes. As Schneider notes, this is only about ten times the mutation rate of HIV-1 reverse transcriptase.

Binding Site Overlap

By default, binding sites are selected to be separated by at least the binding site width. When this restriction is removed, surprisingly the number of generations required to produce the first maximally fit genome ranges does not change significantly from the non-overlapping case.

Alternative Implementation Results

Population size seems to have the largest impact on the number of generations required to reach equilibrium. Mutation rate has a smaller effect, but can prevent convergence when set too high. Tournament selection takes a bit longer to converge than truncation selection, but the two are within the same order of magnitude. Roulette selection does not work well for this problem.

Unlike the Steiner network and some other problems, crossover doesn’t increase the convergence rate. Mutating the parent genomes before adding them to the next generation’s gene pool does have a measurable impact.

Regardless of selection method, mutation rate, or other parameters, R_{sequence} always evolves to and then oscillates around R_{frequency}.

Source Code

The code is available on GitHub. The required files are:

  • ga-package.lisp
  • ga.lisp
  • examples/ga-ev-package.lisp
  • examples/ga-ev.lisp
  • examples/load-ev.lisp

To run from the command line, make the examples directory your working directory and then call

ccl64 - -load load-ev.lisp`

if you’re using Clozure CL or

sbcl - -load load-ev.lisp`

if you’re using Steel Bank Common Lisp.

If you need a refresher on Common Lisp programming, Peter Seibel’s Practical Common Lisp is an excellent book.

Summary

In addition to being a good test case for evolutionary algorithms, ev is interesting because of its biological relevance. As Schneider points out in his Results section:

Although the sites can contain a maximum of 2L = 12 bits, the information content of the binding sites rises during this time until it oscillates around the predicted information content R_{frequency} = 4 bits, with R_{sequence} = 3.983 \pm 0.399 bits during the 1000 to 2000 generation interval.

With this, ev sticks a spoke in the tires of creationists who complain that GAs like Richard Dawkins’ weasel program only demonstrate “directed evolution”. There is nothing in the ev implementation that requires that R_{sequence} evolve to R_{frequency}, yet it does every time.

It’s well worth running the Java version of ev to see the recognizer, threshold, and binding sites all co-evolving. This is a clear answer to creationist objections about how “irreducibly complex” parts could evolve.

The common creationist argument from incredulity based on the complexity of cell biochemistry is also touched on by ev. Even with a genome where the recognizer and binding sites all overlap indiscriminately, a maximally fit recognizer evolves in a tiny population within a small number of generations.

Despite numerous attempts, Intelligent Design Creationists haven’t been able to refute any of Dr. Schneider’s claims or the evidence provided by ev. His history of responses to creationists is both amusing and devastating to his critics.

Unlike his IDCist critics, Schneider uses a clear, unambiguous, measurable definition of information and demonstrates that even the simplest known evolutionary mechanisms can increase it. Shannon information is produced randomly in the context of the environment but is preserved non-randomly by selection. Differential reproductive success does, therefore, generate information. As Schneider succinctly puts it:

Replication, mutation and selection are necessary and sufficient for information gain to occur.
This process is called evolution.
— Thomas D. Schneider

Please contact me by email if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions.

360 thoughts on “ev

  1. Frankie: I have explained what evolutionism refers to many, many times

    Your explanation is not adoption, Joe. Unless you’ve explained it to the Nobel Prize committee then you should be unsurprised they don’t know about it. But perhaps you can submit your original dragonflies and ticks work?

  2. So sad and so pathetic, Richie.

    Why hasn’t any evolutionist ever won a Noble prize for discoveries pertaining to evolutionism, ie the alleged theory of evolution?

    Does the Nobel Prize committee adopt that which doesn’t even exist- there isn’t any theory of evolution and not one person on said committee can reference it? So sad and so pathetic

  3. Frankie:
    So sad and so pathetic, Richie.

    Why hasn’t any evolutionist ever won a Noble prize for discoveries pertaining to evolutionism, ie the alleged theory of evolution?

    Does the Nobel Prize committee adopt that which doesn’t even exist- there isn’t any theory of evolution and not one person on said committee can reference it? So sad and so pathetic

    http://www.nobelprize.org/search/?query=evolution

  4. LoL! @ Richardthughes! Biology- I am talking about biological evolution via natural selection, drift and neutral construction and Richie posts a link to cyclotrons, stars and everything non-biological.

    Just cuz the word “evolution” appears in the text doesn’t mean it supports evolutionism/ the alleged theory of evolution. Talk about desperation…

  5. Frankie: everything non-biological.

    Mello – Nobel Lecture: Return to the RNAi World: Rethinking Gene Expression and Evolution

    Early Life on Earth

    lecture ‘Meta-Gene Regulation in Development and Evolution’.

    Exon shuffling During evolution, DNA segments coding for modules or domains in proteins have been duplicated and rearranged.

    (All from page 1 of 24)

  6. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_organizations/nobelfoundation/symposia/chemistry/ns84/

    “Table of Contents
    Preface Approaches to understanding early life on Earth vii
    Introduction: The coherence of history
    Stephen Jay Gould 1
    Theme 1: Life’s Gestation and Infancy
    The planetary setting of prebiotic evolution
    Sherwood Chang 10
    Early environments: Constraints and opportunities for early evolution
    Donald R. Lowe 24
    Earth’s early atmosphere: Constraints and opportunities for early evolution
    Kenneth M. Towe 36
    Early chemical stages in the origin of life
    Juan Oró 48
    The transition from non-living to living
    Antonio Lazcano 60
    The RNA world, its predecessors and descendants
    Antonio Lazcano 70
    Molecular origin and evolution of early biological energy conversion
    Herrick Baltscheffsky and Margareta Baltscheffsky 81
    Sources and geochemical evolution of RNA precursor molecules: The role of phosphate
    Benjamin Gedulin and Gustaf Arrhenius 91
    Self-assembly and function of primitive membrane structures
    David W. Deamer, Elizabeth Harang Mahon, and Giovanni Bosco 107
    Vitalysts and virulysts: A theory of self-expanding reproduction
    Günter Wächtershäuser 124
    Protocell life cycles
    Leo W. Buss 133
    Early evolution of genes and genomes
    Tomoko Ohta 135
    The lesson of Archaebacteria
    Karl O. Stetter 143
    The early diversification of life
    Otto Kandler 152
    The emergence, diversification, and role of photosynthetic eubacteria
    Beverly K. Pierson 161
    The origin of eukaryotes and evolution into major kingdoms
    Mitchell L. Sogin 181
    The oldest known records of life: Early Archean stromatolites, microfossils, and organic matter
    J. William Schopf 193
    Theme 2: The Maturation of Earth and Life
    The Archean-Proterozoic transition and its environmental implication
    Ján Veizer 208
    Global methanotrophy at the Archean-Proterozoic transition
    John M. Hayes 220
    Early Proterozoic atmospheric change
    Heinrich D. Holland 237
    Trends in Precambrian carbonate sediments and their implication for understanding evolution
    John P. Grotzinger 245
    Biomarkers in the Proterozoic record
    Guy Ourisson 259
    Stromatolites: The main source of information on the evolution of the early benthos
    Malcolm R. Walter 270
    Proterozoic eukaryotes: Evidence from biology and geology
    Bruce Runnegar 287
    Early ecosystems: Limitations imposed by the fossil record
    Gonzalo Vidal 298
    The role of phenotypic comparisons of living protists in the determination of probable eukaryotic phylogeny
    F.J.R. “Max” Taylor 312
    Combinatorial generation of taxonomic diversity: Implication of symbiogenesis for the Proterozoic fossil record
    Lynn Margulis and Joel E. Cohen 327
    The continuing importance of cyanobacteria
    Stjepko Golubic 334
    Theme 3: Multicellularity and the Phanerozoic Revolution
    Proterozoic carbonaceous compressions (“metaphytes” and “worms”)
    Hans J. Hofmann 342
    Early multicellular fossils
    Sun Weiguo 358
    Vendian body fossils and trace fossils
    Mikhail A. Fedonkin 370
    Early multicellular life: Late Proterozoic fossils and the Cambrian explosion
    Adolf Seilacher 389
    The Cambrian explosion
    James W. Valentine 401
    The advent of animal skeletons
    Stefan Bengtson 412
    Evolution of algal and cyanobacterial calcification
    Robert Riding 426
    Neoproterozoic evolution and environmental change
    Andrew H. Knoll 439
    Early metazoan evolution: First steps to an integration of molecular and morphological data
    Simon Conway Morris 450
    Ideas on early animal evolution
    Jan Bergström 460
    Molecular phylogeny and the origin of Metazoa
    Richard Christen 467
    Evolution of the “lower” Metazoa
    Reinhard M. Rieger 475
    Developmental mechanisms in the evolution of animal form: Origins and evolvability of body plans
    Rudolf A. Raff 489
    From protein domains to extinct phyla: Reverse-engineering approaches to the evolution of biological complexities
    George L. Gabor Miklos and K.S.W. Campbell 501
    References 517″

  7. SJ Gould never won a Nobel prize and there isn’t any evidence for a RNA world, just a need for one- if you are a materialist.

    Your desperation is showing, cupcake

  8. Tomoko Ohta never won a Nobel Prize, never mind winning one for what Richie linked to.

    Richie loses, again, as usual.

  9. Why hasn’t any evolutionist ever won a Noble prize for discoveries pertaining to evolutionism, ie the alleged theory of evolution?

  10. Sorry Joe – We were talking about what the NOBEL PRIZE COMMITTEE knew, and this book is referenced on their website. So they know.

  11. I never said anything to the contrary, Richie. You must be confused.

    The desperation grows…

    Why hasn’t any evolutionist ever won a Noble prize for discoveries pertaining to evolutionism, ie the alleged theory of evolution?

    That is what you should be addressing instead of tilting at windmills

  12. Well, I can’t squish bugs all day. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts and using your own cutsie phrases, real science continues not caring about you at all. I’m sure others will be amused at the quote that destroyed you.

  13. Richie refuses to state his case, then makes a case against a strawman and claims victory. Typical but still pathetic

  14. Some comments moved to Guano. Please follow the rules about addressing the post, not the poster, and assuming good faith.

  15. Frankie:

    It is sad that you feel the need to attack me and ID all the while holding all of the power to refute our claims.

    Who can refute “it was designed”?

  16. Anyway, Frankie, do you agree with the idea that Shannon information is produced randomly in the context of the environment but is preserved non-randomly by selection?

    If not, why not?

  17. “It was designed” can be refuted by demonstrating that stochastic processes can produce it. That is how it is done with archaeology, forensics and SETI.

    Science 101

  18. Frankie: …and SETI.

    Perhaps this should be a separate topic. How will SETI researchers distinguish meaningful signal from noise using an ID approach, Joe?

  19. Frankie:
    “It was designed” can be refuted by demonstrating that stochastic processes can produce it. That is how it is done with archaeology, forensics and SETI.

    No, it isn’t.

  20. Natural selection is non-random in a very trivial way*. Whatever is good enough still survives and gets a chance to reproduce. Meaning NS is as non-random as the spray pattern from a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird shot.

    However if someone has any experimental evidence for natural selection producing something that may resemble CSI, present it. And if OM thinks he has something then Perry Marshall has anted up millions of dollars for anyone who can show nature can produce information- the sort it takes to get the genetic code.

    So have at it. Why are you wasting your time on a blog when millions of dollars awaits!

    * NS is non-random in that not every change has the same chance of being eliminated

  21. Alan Fox: Perhaps this should be a separate topic. How will SETI researchers distinguish meaningful signal from noise using an ID approach, Joe?

    The same way they do now, Alan. They are looking for narrow-band signals for the very reason nature cannot produce them. They rejected pulsars as such a signal because that signal was all over the place bleeding on different channels.

  22. I see that Richie is having difficulty with science and reality, again. Oh well, it isn’t up to me to educate him.

  23. Frankie: The same way they do now, Alan.

    But they don’t have anything to analyse yet. How can they be deciding on meaningful signal rather than noise if they haven’t yet spotted any anomalous signals?

    They are looking for narrow-band signals for the very reason nature cannot produce them.

    Who’s nature? They’re looking for narrow-band signals in a particular band because of cost constraints and the hypothesis that alien beings intending to advertise themselves via EMR would use a frequency that penetrates interstellar space, the “water-hole”.

    They rejected pulsars as such a signal because that signal was all over the place bleeding on different channels.

    Pulsars have long ceased to be a mystery. The only mystery remaining is why Jocelyn Bell was passed over for a Nobel prize.

  24. Archaeology- In his day Henri Breuil was well known for showing what some archaeologists thought were artifacts could be made by natural processes, no designer required.

    Forensic science- If an alleged murder is shown to be by natural causes the murder charge is dropped,

    SETI- The signal from pulsars were found to be interesting but any design inference dissolved when the actual source was found.

  25. Alan Fox,

    But they don’t have anything to analyse yet.

    Nonsense. They have been analyzing signals for years.

    Who’s nature?

    What? Try to be coherent.

    They’re looking for narrow-band signals in a particular band because of cost constraints

    Mother nature cannot produce them. If mother nature could then they wouldn’t be looking for them

  26. Frankie:
    I see that Richie’s literature bluff is being protected by my calling him on it goes to guano. How typical of TSZ

    A dedicated thread is available for querying moderating decisions.

  27. Frankie: Nonsense. They have been analyzing signals for years.

    If you mean, radio astronomers, well, of course. They don’t bother consulting the ID manual, however.

  28. In SETI and Intelligent Design, SETI researcher Seth Shostak wants to assure everyone that the two don’t have anything in common.

    However it is obvious that Seth doesn’t completely understand ID’s argument, and he misrepresents the anonymous quote he provided.

    Seth on ID:

    The way this happens is as follows. When ID advocates posit that DNA–which is a complicated, molecular blueprint–is solid evidence for a designer, most scientists are unconvinced. They counter that the structure of this biological building block is the result of self-organization via evolution, and not a proof of deliberate engineering. DNA, the researchers will protest, is no more a consciously constructed system than Jupiter’s Great Red Spot. Organized complexity, in other words, is not enough to infer design.

    Yes specified complexity is used as evidence for design. Not mere complexity and not organized complexity. A hurricane is an example of organized complexity. DNA is an example of specified complexity.

    Seth on IDists on SETI:

    “upon receiving a complex radio signal from space, SETI researchers will claim it as proof that intelligent life resides in the neighborhood of a distant star. Thus, isn’t their search completely analogous to our own line of reasoning–a clear case of complexity implying intelligence and deliberate design?” anonymous IDist(s)

    (No IDist claims complexity implies intelligence so methinks Seth made it all up)

    What does Seth say about his made-up quote?:

    In fact, the signals actually sought by today’s SETI searches are not complex, as the ID advocates assume.- S Shostak

    1- All that quote said was about RECEIVING, not searching.
    2- And if you did RECEIVE a signal of that nature you would claim it as such
    3- By ID’s standards of complexity is related to probability your narrow band meets the complexity criteria

    An endless, sinusoidal signal – a dead simple tone – is not complex; it’s artificial.- Shostak

    Not if we use the word complexity in terms of (im)probability then that sine wave would meet the criteria.
    However Seth does add some insight:

    Such a tone just doesn’t seem to be generated by natural astrophysical processes. In addition, and unlike other radio emissions produced by the cosmos, such a signal is devoid of the appendages and inefficiencies nature always seems to add –

    Exactly! And if natural astrophysical processes can be found that generate such a tone then you would have to search for something else. Something that natural astrophysical processes cannot account for.

     SETI, ID, archaeology and forensic science all use the same processes to determine if intelligent design exists or not.

  29. Alan Fox: If you mean, radio astronomers, well, of course. They don’t bother consulting the ID manual, however.

    LoL! ID uses their techniques, Alan. And I am sure you have been informed of this before.

  30. Frankie: SETI, ID, archaeology and forensic science all use the same processes to determine if intelligent design exists or not.

    Can you get some experts in the field to attest to that with that along with their calculations (ID being empirical, of course)?

  31. Frankie: Mother nature cannot produce them. If mother nature could then they wouldn’t be looking for them

    Radio astronomy is a rich field of study. I’m unaware of any research or study on anything other than EMR from non-intelligent sources.

  32. Alan Fox: Radio astronomy is a rich field of study. I’m unaware of any research or study on anything other than EMR from non-intelligent sources.

    Your point?

  33. I see that Richie thinks that archaeologists, forensic scientists and SETI flip a coin to decide design from not. The process ID uses that is the same as those other venues was laid out by Sir Isaac Newton in his four rules of scientific investigation. That means they all use the EF or something very, very similar to it. They have to eliminate necessity and chance and then find a pattern.

  34. Frankie: I see that Richie thinks that archaeologists, forensic scientists and SETI flip a coin to decide design from not.

    Where did I say that? I didn’t. No citations from experts? It’s almost as if you’re making it up as you go along.

  35. Frankie: Your point?

    Radio astronomy is not much concerned with alien signals and not at all with “Intelligent Design”.

    ETA Oops deleted extraneous text

  36. Alan Fox:
    Please! Moderation issues – moderation issues thread! Posts moved to guano.

    Radio astronomy is not much concerned with alien signals and not at all with “Intelligent Design”.

    LoL! SETI uses radio telescopes, so obviously you are wrong. And again I see that you cannot follow along.

  37. Frankie: LoL! SETI uses radio telescopes, so obviously you are wrong. And again I see that you cannot follow along.

    I’m certainly not following that “logic”. I’m wrong because SETI use radio telescopes to detect radio signals? Run that past me again with the sequitur inserted.

  38. Alan Fox: I’m certainly not following that “logic”. I’m wrong because SETI use radio telescopes to detect radio signals? Run that past me again with the sequitur inserted.

    SETI is looking for alien signals. That refutes what you said:

    Radio astronomy is not much concerned with alien signals

  39. Comment moved to guano. Attributing stupidity to other commenters is against the rules.

  40. I see that Richie failed to understand the argument:

    The process ID uses that is the same as those other venues was laid out by Sir Isaac Newton in his four rules of scientific investigation. That means they all use the EF or something very, very similar to it. They have to eliminate necessity and chance and then find a pattern.

    No surprise there

  41. Alan Fox:
    Comment moved to guano. Attributing stupidity to other commenters is against the rules.

    Except when you and yours attack me, of course.

  42. Did you move Joe citing experts on how they detect design along with the math involved to Guano, Alan? I can’t find it.

  43. Frankie: SETI is looking for alien signals. That refutes what you said:

    Radio astronomy is not much concerned with alien signals

    The SETI project is not much in size in comparison to all radio astronomy. Hence my use of “not much”. And SETI aren’t, strictly, looking for alien signals. They are looking for anomalous signals in the “water-hole” band. Deciding whether any such signal is from an intelligent alien source will start if they find such a candidate signal.

  44. Gee, Richie, how do you think they do it? People are awaiting your almighty investigative knowledge

  45. Frankie: they do it? People are awaiting your almighty investigative

    You made a claim, and now you’re backing down. Again.

  46. Alan Fox: The SETI project is not much in size in comparison to all radio astronomy. Hence my use of “not much”. And SETI aren’t, strictly, looking for alien signals. They are looking for anomalous signals in the “water-hole” band. Deciding whether any such signal is from an intelligent alien source will start if they find such a candidate signal.

    I quoted Seth as to what they are looking for, Alan:

    An endless, sinusoidal signal – a dead simple tone – is not complex; it’s artificial. Such a tone just doesn’t seem to be generated by natural astrophysical processes. In addition, and unlike other radio emissions produced by the cosmos, such a signal is devoid of the appendages and inefficiencies nature always seems to add –- Shostak

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