This post is to move a discussion from Sandbox(4) at Entropy’s request.
Over on the Sandbox(4) thread, fifthmonarchyman made two statements that I disagree with:
“I’ve argued repeatedly that humans are hardwired to believe in God.”
“Everyone knows that God exists….”
As my handle indicates, I prefer to lurk. The novelty of being told that I don’t exist overcame my good sense, so I joined the conversation.
For the record, I am what is called a weak atheist or negative atheist. The Wikipedia page describes my position reasonably well:
“Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none. Positive atheism, also called strong atheism and hard atheism, is the form of atheism that additionally asserts that no deities exist.”
I do exist, so fifthmonarchyman’s claims are disproved. For some reason he doesn’t agree, hence this thread.
Added In Edit by Alan Fox 16.48 CET 11th January, 2018
This thread is designated as an extension of Noyau. This means only basic rules apply. The “good faith” rule, the “accusations of dishonesty” rule do not apply in this thread.
If you said “I assert that I don’t know God exists” or “I believe I don’t know God exists” then we would have no argument especially if you could support the assertion somehow.
😉
peace
fifth, to Corneel:
As opposed to the pain fifth feels, which is of utter irrationality resisting the introduction of logic and reason.
Alan, to fifth:
Which, as ALurker has been pointing out, is a rule you have refused to enforce against fifth.
In any case, the good-faith rule is irrelevant here. Remember,
you were the doofus who abused his moderation powers and made this thread an extension of Noyau, against the thread author’s wishes.
His way of avoiding threatening questions.
Glen Davidson
walto, to J-Mac:
fifth:
No, you say that there are no atheists:
Christ, fifth. Did you think we’d forget?
alt-fmm: “Fifthmonarchyman knows God does not exist.”
fifthmonarchyman,
What I actually think is Gods – all gods – are human inventions. What I can say is I could be wrong but it is what I firmly believe. I also don’t mind if you believe differently. I think it’s as pointless for you to discuss this further with me as vice versa.
I really don’t think this is a big deal at all. If there’s other stuff you’d like to raze here, why not just carry on with that and drop this trivial point?
But how? If they have never believed, why would they believe? That’s actually what I’m asking. Why would they say they always knew god existed if they never believed it nor knew anyone that also believed it? What reason can you give? Simply saying they know is a cop-out. How do you know they know?
OK,
Then you would agree that you know that God exists but just think that he is not worthy of your worship because he is in your opinion a human invention.
I’m fine with that. That is pretty much what I would expect and it’s what Paul said.
quote:
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him,
(Rom 1:21a)
end quote:
You don’t understand. I (almost) never intentionally bring it up. I (usually) only point out the fact that everyone knows God exists when directly asked.
It’s not something I go around shoving in peoples faces.
When you know God exists you don’t really need me to remind you.
The problem is some folks seem to get a charge out of repeatedly bringing it up and then feigning outrage when I say once again what I have always said.
peace
OMagain, to fifth:
The Babble says it; fifth believes it; that settles it.
Like much else in the Babble, whatever it says will be open to interpretation. For FMM to be so sure I guess it must have been revealed directly to him by god. FMM?
We can see that believers more often then not inherit their belief (whatever FMM might say). It’s no coincidence that a good Christian family in Texas has children who grow up to be good Christians rather then Muslims. On average.
So if belief can be inherited, why can’t atheism?
And what god is it that they believe exists, these atheists who have never believed in god? Is it a Hindu god? Ganesh? Thor? Do scandinavian atheists believe in Thor secretly FMM?
OMagain:
Yes, and then we get fifth’s idiotic regress argument.
Certainty is not necessary for knowledge and of course I grant that I could be mistaken about what this passage means.
But if I am certain about something in particular then I would say that could only happen if God revealed it to me directly.
surely you agree that God if he exists could reveal something so that I could know it for certain,
peace
Because, I would say the propensity to believe in gods is evolutionaryly hardwired.
and because God makes himself known to everyone.
You know that the Christian God Yahweh exists.
peace
fifth:
You know that His Raketness exists, and that he is the Supreme Lord of All. Cease this blasphemy, you unregenerate rebel!
I would say the name you happen to call God is culturally dependent.
Just as Native Americans in the old west understood that there was a US president while they might have called him “The White man’s great chief in the east” and they might have had mistaken notions about his powers and attributes.
The 17th chapter of Acts offers a great example of how that sort of cultural gap is bridged when it comes to God.
peace
All,
I’m courious
Has keiths posted a summery of the beliefs he now embraces as a follower of Rumracket?
peace
Of course fifth knows. You mentioned “His Raketness” to him before. He remembers, so he knows. (See his response to Alan.)
I finally understand what fifth means when he says “everyone knows that god exists”.
What stops you from finding out ?!
PopoHummel, to fifth:
It’s important to fifth that he ignore (or at least pretend to ignore) my comments. He needs the alibi of “Oh, I didn’t see what keiths said” in order to excuse his failure to rebut my arguments.
That’s why it’s good when others quote me to fifth. It ruins his alibi.
Of course, the very fact that he has me on ignore (or pretends to) is damning enough. It hardly brings glory to Jesus when fifth is afraid to confront his opponents’ arguments.
What’s especially funny about this case is that nobody quoted me to fifth, yet he just happened to ask:
Good job exposing your own pretense, fifth.
Because he said the tenets were secret or encoded or something like that.
The only way I can see if his newly embraced faith conflicts with his actions here is if i know what he now believes.
peace
I think you might have it.
quote:
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
(1Co 8:5-6)
end quote:
peace
Of course not. I think gods are invented in the same way Santa Claus is invented. But my point was, you should care no more about my beliefs than I do about yours. Live and let live.
fifth:
As if the truth of Rumraketism depended on whether my actions comport with it. By that goofy logic, Christianity would obviously be false, since there are Christians who don’t walk the talk.
You know Rumraketism is true, and so does everyone else. Stop denying it, you shameless rebel.
Alan:
Stated beliefs are fair game for discussion at The Skeptical Zone, Alan. It amazes me that you still don’t get this.
keiths,
Discuss? Where did I suggest discussion was restricted? I merely point out discussion of the same point is getting nowhere. Are you the thought police? Do you want to deprogram FMM? I think, if so, you need a different approach? If not, well, what do you get out of it?
ETA two sses for one u
I don’t care about your beliefs I really don’t, unless they harm others.
It does make me little sad that you would choose to reject the thing that you were created for just like it makes me sad to see a talented musician waste his life on drugs.
The point is I’m not here to convert anyone that is God’s job. The most I could do is point you in the right direction if you ask
I just won’t lie when asked about what I know.
Now If you were to express genuine interest in seeking the truth about God I would be happy to help any way I could.
peace
Alan,
TSZ was created specifically as a venue for the discussion of controversial issues. One of those controversial issues is whether God (or in this case, the Christian God) exists.
In discussing that controversial issue, we pay attention to our interlocutors’ stated beliefs. That is, we care about what they believe. It isn’t a denial of their right to believe whatever they wish, or a refusal to “live and let live”.
You seem to be completely lost here at TSZ. It’s okay to be skeptical at The Skeptical Zone, Alan. Even of someone’s cherished beliefs.
Now I agree there is no supernatural elf who drives a flying sleigh
but Santa Claus certainly exists as a persona that certain people at the mall take on at Christmas time.
peace
keiths,
Non-responsive as always! 😉
That’s not really Santa in the suit, FMM, as I’m sure you realise, don’t you? 🙂
Alan:
As if I hadn’t responded directly to your claim, which was:
keiths,
?
Santa is the persona that the person in the suit adopts.
The persona exists or it could not be adopted
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
This isn’t going anywhere, is it?
It never does but for some reason people on your side of the fence seem to like the merry-go round.
I’d rather talk about science
At least you are not accusing me of calling you a liar yet 😉
peace
You’re weird. No one but yourself is stopping you from finding out.
When I asked him. He did not tell me but said it was a secret for only the chosen. What else can I do but ask?
peace
Look,
(1) someone wrote about Harry Potter and his adventures.
(2) You know that someone wrote about Harry Potter.
(3) Therefore, you know that Harry Potter exists. (Even if it is in the mind of little children.)
We wanted to know what fifth meant by “everyone knows that god exists”. I think this is it. This is the breakthrough.
Read ???!!! Discuss ????!!!
You’re weird. Are you ok?
Harry potter exists as a fictional character.
Do any of these little children think Harry Potter is a real person?
If I imagine a unicorn it does not bring the animal into physical existence but my idea of a unicorn certainly exists
peace
fifth:
So does Yahweh. And thank God (so to speak) he isn’t real.
Read what? Ive asked repeatedly for a summery of the beliefs he once rejected that he now embraces. so far he has not produced anything
Discuss what? he said that he presupposed the truth of scripture and then contradicted that assertion in the space of less than 2 posts.
There is no way to discuss anything rationally when your counterpart says contradictory things in that short of a span.
peace
Keep hiding, fifth. Jesus is proud of you.
I’m fine.
I’m a little annoyed at the inability of folks on your side of the fence to move on to more interesting conversations.
but I guess it’s it takes real effort to suppress the truth
peace
It is necessary for Fifth’s worldview that you know the Christian God exists.It is not necessary for yours that Fifth believes that.
That assumes anybody else believes you have the truth or wishes to suppress it , they probably believe you are going to a lot of effort to suppress logic.
And atheists know that god exists as a fictional character. That’s what you meant by “atheists know that god exists”. Again: I understand you.