The Skeptics Wink and Nod.

Here is an informative little video by a guy named Steve Mould who does a lot of “science” videos on youtube.  Its all (ostensibly) about how simple little processes can make “meaningful” structures from stochastic processes-and he uses magnetic shaped little parts to show this.  Its a popular channeled followed by millions, and is often referenced by other famous people in the science community-and his fans love it.

And hey, it does show how meaningful structures CAN form from random processes.  Right?  So you can learn from this.  Wink, wink.  Nod, nod. And all the skeptics will know exactly what he is really saying.  Cause we are all part of the clique that knows this language-the language of the skeptic propagandist.  I mean, he almost hides it, the real message, it is just under the surface, and the less skeptically aware, the casualist, might even miss it.  The casualist might not learn as much about Steve Mould and what he is trying to say here-but the skeptic knows.  “See, atheism is true! Spread the word!” Steve has given the wink. The same wink used by DeGrasse Tyson, and Sean Carroll, Lawrence Krauss, Brian Greene, and on and on.  You know the one.

And for 95% of his viewers, whether they know it or not, they got his message.  I mean, look, its plain as day, right?  He just showed you, that is certainly a meaningful structure that arose from random processes, isn’t it?  Its defintely meaningful, its a, a, a , well, it’s shape that, we have a, a  name for…that’s kind of…anyway, defintely random, I mean other than the magnets and the precut shapes, and the little ball with nothing else inside, and the shaking only until its just right then stopping kind of way…That’s random kind of right???

But there are 5% percent of his viewers that spotted his little wink and nod, and said, hold on a second.  If you want us to believe that your little explanation about how simply life can form from nonsense without a plan, how blind exactly do you want us to be?  95%, they are hooked, you got them (Ryan StallardThere are so many creationist videos this obliterates. Especially 4:18.). But some likeGhryst VanGhod helpfully point out: “this is incorrect. the kinesin travels along fibres within the cell and takes the various molecules exactly where they need to be, they are not randomly “jumbling around in solution”. https://youtu.be/gbycQf1TbM0  ” and then you get to see a video that tells you just a few more of the things that are ACTUALLY happening which are even more amazing if you weren’t already skeptical (the real kind).

And if you go through some more of the comments you will notice a few more (real) skeptics, not the wink and nod kind, and you will start to notice why the wink nod propogandist skeptics everywhere you look in modern culture are a very puposefully designed cancer on knowledge and thought.

1,212 thoughts on “The Skeptics Wink and Nod.

  1. CharlieM: …experiments involving double slit apparatus. For instance the interference pattern obtained gives a measure of the intensity of the peaks. They have done various experiments to determine if people can alter this intensity remotely by concentration alone. There were different levels of success depending on various factors.

    Is there a publication with the method and results for an experiment involving double-slit apparatus? We could look at that. Incidentally, what do you think the implications of some mental force influencing the path of, say, electrons would be? I would have thought it would be Earth-shattering, if true.

  2. phoodoo: …[Alan] usually has so much to say about teleology. He refuses to answer if it even exists

    Here you go again, phoodoo, making claims that I am dismissing evidence without the rather important, in my view, first step of presenting any evidence.

    Your Bermuda Triangle performance is a classic.

    Seems to me the iconic Bermuda Triangle story is the disappearance of Flight 19. I’ve read the Wikipedia article about the event and there is no indication of anything supernatural. Seems to me either you are just gullible or think everyone else is.

    Tell me what is supernatural about the loss of Flight 19 and support that story with actual evidence for a change. Go on, surprise me for once.

  3. Corneel:
    CharlieM: You cannot say that the field has coordinates. All you can say is that the field will have a specific strength at a particular coordinate.

    Corneel: LOL, what exactly does “being in a specific location in space” mean to you? Are you using your private vocabulary again?

    I am pointing out the different ways particles and fields are dealt with in physics.

    CharlieM: For physical fields such as magnetic fields the strength reduces in proportion to the square of the distance. This is not the case for the proposed etheric field. It operates outside of the known laws of space and time but its effects play into space and time.

    Corneel: Fascinating. Please explain how you found out that the etheric field operates outside of the known laws of space and time when all of its effects play within space and time

    Think of the relationship between the etheric and the physical as the same as the relationship between the ideal triangle and a physical representation of a triangle.

    The ideal triangle is not governed by any measurement in space and its laws remain constant for all times. Any physical triangle is transient and amenable to measurement.

    Goethe’s archetypal plant is of the nature of the etheric. Any physical plant is a representative of the archetype.

  4. phoodoo: CharlieM,

    Alan has zero interest in evidence. It wouldn’t matter what was presented to him, he will attempt his word redefining hand-waving.

    Well it’s there if he decides to examine it.

  5. I did enjoy the appearance of the Bermuda Triangle almost as much as I enjoyed the appearance of dear Rupert Sheldrake (who was brought up by William J Murray and ridiculed by me before phoodoo ever mentioned him…)
    Strange that PSI effects almost all live in those phenomena which are most famous for confirmation bias — mysterious disappearances, telepathic dogs, someone calls you right when you are thinking about them, and (my personal favorite) the sense of being stared at.
    Dean Radin is rather interesting in that his primary research does produce clear departures from random expectation, but always rather underwhelming effects detected with very sensitive and noisy measurement equipment (GSR machines or photon detectors), requiring some fairly heavy duty data massage. He is reduced to arguing that human minds can affect Random Number Generators. Most of his audience is comfortable with the backwards causation explanation, but they baulk at the multiverse as an explanation for backwards causation.
    Awkwardly, his double slit experiments have been shown to be reproducible under sham conditions. He does not appear to understand the difference between random and systematic error.
    I am reminded of the machine I used in the ’70s to measure the piezoelectric behavior of uranium oxides (yeah, back in the day I worked for the military). Every morning, around about 10:00, it would start reporting a small sinusoidal signal with a period of a couple of minutes. Whether or not there was any uranium in it. By about noon, the oscillation would go away. We never came up with a plausible explanation for was causing the signal, so I just avoided doing experiments in the late morning. Clearly, the signal was caused by Rupert Sheldrake thinking about morphic resonance!
    Finally, an explanation!

  6. CharlieM: Think of the relationship between the etheric and the physical as the same as the relationship between the ideal triangle and a physical representation of a triangle.

    Oh, but I am.

    CharlieM: The ideal triangle is not governed by any measurement in space and its laws remain constant for all times. Any physical triangle is transient and amenable to measurement.

    Goethe’s archetypal plant is of the nature of the etheric. Any physical plant is a representative of the archetype.

    In my experience it is the other way around. The archetype usually turns out to be a representative of all organisms that you mentally group, like “plants”. And what may those be? It’s all that green stuff, innit?

  7. DNA_Jock,

    The evidence for strange happenings in the Bermuda Traiangle are the same as the evidence for the existence of Wilhelm Walys (Or Wallis or Uallas..). All you have is someone telling you it is so.

    I guess you must have some confirmation bias to believe one more than the other.

    Heck, Alan knows what he believes before he has even heard of it.

  8. phoodoo: Heck, Alan knows what he believes before he has even heard of it.

    Alan does not know a whole lot of stuff. Alan has reached an age where he has forgotten a whole lot of stuff that he used to know. But Alan remains convinced that facts come before opinions and that arguments about facts (how many teeth in a horse’s jaw) are pointless. Facts can be investigated, verified, quantified. Then there can be a fruitful discussion with opinion informed by facts.

  9. Corneel:
    CharlieM: Why? I use my legs for walking and my hands to grasp things. Does this reduce my body a set of separate components? A holistic understanding does not mean that everything becomes an undifferentiated whole.

    Corneel: But legs still carry your body, hands still pick up stuff and morphological variation is still largely determined by genes.

    The constituents of the materials that make up the body are in a large part provided by the genes. The morphology of an organism is dependent on the way in which genes are expressed. Two of Aristotle’s causes are the material cause and the formal cause. The structural gene products conform to Aristotle’s material cause and the formative forces conform to his formal cause.

    CharlieM: What do you mean, “don’t like”? I love the idea of the arrangement of homeotic genes matching the gross body plan. The whole reflected in the parts.

    Corneel: Wonderful, now please tell us why you think the scientific consensus is mistaken.

    As history shows, the scientific consensus is in a state of constant flux. I would not presume to claim that the scientific consensus is mistaken in general. The subject is much too complex for that.

    CharlieM: What he does advocate is that genes are under the control of bioelectric fields.

    Corneel: Do you think he meant all genes?

    At the highest level, yes.

    CharlieM: What specific genes are you talking about and what instigates their expression?

    Corneel: What?!? Didn’t you watch the video? The bio-electric pattern is under the control of proteins that regulate ion gradients across the cell membrane. Interfering with those proteins and the genes that encode them is how Michael Levin and co-workers are able to manipulate the bio-electric field.

    Did you hear him say that all cells and tissues make decisions about structure and functions? In his lab they don’t alter body plans by fiddling with the genes, they do it by altering electric patterns. According to Levin the genome only provides the hardware, it does not say anything directly about the morphological order. He proposes a collective intelligence of the cells. It’s a complex large scale pattern information which guides the homeostatic process.

    The bioelectric pattern of the face shows up before the genes are turned on and off to regionalise the face. Bioelectrical gradients control at the large scale. In the planarian the cells will turn on and off the genes they need in accordance with the high level instructions they receive. The researchers can alter the form of the heads of planaria to conform to that of other species. They do this by manipulating the bioelectrical gradients into producing the suitable attractors.

    CharlieM: Ion channels are surely transmitted.

    Corneel: Let me remind you again of the Hershey-Chase experiment and the Avery–MacLeod–McCarty experiment.

    The only thing that these experiments demonstrated was that the means by which the materials needed to build tissues was passed on through DNA and not proteins. DNA is used to produce the material in the form of proteins. If it was primal in producing form then it would need to be different in each cell type.

    CharlieM: What will the study of fetal microchimerism turn up next?

    No clue, now will you please explain how the formative fields set up the correct species-specific bio-electric pattern in an embryo? Thanks!

    By containing the attractors which govern the bioelectric fields with in turn lay down the patterns that the materials follow. The fact that it’s not sense perceptible is no reason to deny its existence.

  10. phoodoo: The evidence for strange happenings in the Bermuda Traiangle are the same as the evidence for the existence of Wilhelm Walys (Or Wallis or Uallas..). All you have is someone telling you it is so.

    Oh. This does explain a lot.

  11. Alan Fox:
    CharlieM: …experiments involving double slit apparatus. For instance the interference pattern obtained gives a measure of the intensity of the peaks. They have done various experiments to determine if people can alter this intensity remotely by concentration alone. There were different levels of success depending on various factors.

    Alan Fox: Is there a publication with the method and results for an experiment involving double-slit apparatus? We could look at that. Incidentally, what do you think the implications of some mental force influencing the path of, say, electrons would be? I would have thought it would be Earth-shattering, if true.

    There are plenty of links at Neotic.org including this one. But I only have access to the abstract below.

    To investigate von Neumann’s proposal that an “extra-physical process” is involved in the measurement of a quantum system, an online experiment was conducted using a double-slit optical system. In a counterbalanced fashion, participants focused their attention toward or away from a feedback signal linked in real time to the double-slit component of an interference pattern. A line camera continuously recorded the interference pattern at 4 Hz, and for each camera image fringe visibility was determined for the central 20 fringes. During 2013 and 2014, a total of 1479 people from 77 countries contributed 2985 test sessions. Over the same period, 5738 sessions were run as controls by a computer programmed to simulate human participants. The results showed that with human observers the fringe visibility at the center of the interference pattern deviated from a null effect by 5.72 sigma (p = 1.05 × 10−8), with the direction of the deviation conforming to the observers’ intentions. The same analysis applied to the control data resulted in an overall deviation of −0.17 sigma. After consideration of alternative explanations, these results were found to support von Neumann’s conclusion that the mind of the observer is an inextricable part of the measurement process. This type of experiment offers a means of empirically resolving long-standing questions about the role of consciousness in the physical world.

    He supplies a lot of info from these experiments, including details on the apparatus used, in his videos and replies to critics which are available online.

  12. CharlieM: In his lab they don’t alter body plans by fiddling with the genes, they do it by altering electric patterns.

    Yeah, I already thought you misunderstood. Fact is, the people at the Levin lab use drugs to block ion channel function, or they use genetic mutants, or they make cells overexpress ion channel and gap junction genes by transduction with a viral vector, as described for example here:

    ABSTRACT Axolotls and other salamanders have the capacity to regenerate lost tissue after an amputation or injury. Growth and morphogenesis are coordinated within cell groups in many contexts by the interplay of transcriptional networks and biophysical properties such as ion flows and voltage gradients. It is not, however, known whether regulators of a cell’s ionic state are involved in limb patterning at later stages of regeneration. Here we manipulated expression and activities of ion channels and gap junctions in vivo, in axolotl limb blastema cells. Limb amputations followed by retroviral infections were performed to drive expression of a human gap junction protein Connexin 26 (Cx26), potassium (Kir2.1-Y242F and Kv1.5) and sodium (NeoNav1.5) ion channel proteins along with EGFP control. Skeletal preparation revealed that overexpressing Cx26 caused syndactyly, while overexpression of ion channel proteins resulted in digit loss and structural abnormalities compared to EGFP expressing control limbs. Additionally, we showed that exposing limbs to the gap junction inhibitor lindane during the regeneration process caused digit loss. Our data reveal that manipulating native ion channel and gap junction function in blastema cells results in patterning defects involving the number and structure of the regenerated digits. Gap junctions and ion channels have been shown to mediate ion flows that control the endogenous voltage gradients which are tightly associated with the regulation of gene expression, cell cycle progression, migration, and other cellular behaviors. Therefore, we postulate that mis-expression of these channels may have disturbed this regulation causing uncoordinated cell behavior which results in morphological defects.

    Emphasis mine. Michael Levin explained all this after the ~24 minute mark of the video you linked to. I believe this deep-sixes your argument.

  13. CharlieM: He supplies a lot of info from these experiments, including details on the apparatus used, in his videos and replies to critics which are available online.

    Charlie, you must see that to consider whether Radin’s double-slit experiment succeeded we need to know the methods used, the data collected and the results shown. Anything less is blurring fact and opinion; especially to be avoided when the genuine demonstration of a paranormal effect would be, as I said, Earth-shattering.

  14. phoodoo to DNA_Jock,
    The evidence for strange happenings in the Bermuda Traiangle are the same as the evidence for the existence of Wilhelm Walys (Or Wallis or Uallas..). All you have is someone telling you it is so.

    This suggests that phoodoo doesn’t understand the difference between “there was some guy walking by the park” and “I took a ride in a flying saucer.” If you believe that some guy could have been walking by the park you must also believe that some guy took a ride in a flying saucer. Same amount of evidence!

    phoodoo to DNA_Jock,
    I guess you must have some confirmation bias to believe one more than the other.

    Some guy said it this way: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. However, to you, expectations in terms of evidence should be identical. Why then aren’t you convinced of everything we say, yet you believe there’s magical beings in the sky? I guess you must have some confirmation bias to believe one more than the other.

  15. Entropy: This suggests that phoodoo doesn’t understand the difference between “there was some guy walking by the park” and “I took a ride in a flying saucer.” If you believe that some guy could have been walking by the park you must also believe that some guy took a ride in a flying saucer. Same amount of evidence!

    Of course he understands the difference. He’s just pretending not to.

  16. CharlieM,

    The morphology of an organism is dependent on the way in which genes are expressed. 

    ‘The way in which genes are expressed’ is also, ultimately, a genetic phenomenon. It’s genes all the way down. That’s why clones resemble each other more than they do distant relatives. The increasing genetic differences aren’t simply coincidental.

    This whole ‘etheric’ stuff seems an unnecessary layer of explanation, raising more questions (to me) than it answers.

  17. CharlieM: He supplies a lot of info from these experiments, including details on the apparatus used, in his videos and replies to critics which are available online.

    Well, he either misrepresents or misunderstands his critics.
    You tell me, Charlie, why do you think that Walleczek and Stillfried are wrong?
    Or are you okay with the fact that Radin’s effect sizes can be replicated in a sham experiment?

  18. Kantian Naturalist: Of course he understands the difference. He’s just pretending not to.

    Oh please. You same people who are claiming THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG with Radin’s methods accept anything anyone ever says about evolution as being no problem at all. “Oh, I guess that really is how a giraffe got a long neck, the shorter necked giraffes never could reach the fruit, so they couldn’t mate!”

    How much scrutiny goes on here about claiming a “new” novel funtion was developed by Lenski’s experiments. You guys will suck up anything that furthers your God hate.

    BTW KN, I am still waiting to hear if you believe teleology exist in biology-and by teleology I mean what your authors your referenced are talking about, not your perverted defintion of teleology. You know (even when you pretend you don’t)- Goal oriented.

    Rummy quakes in his boots having to answer this one. Alan says he doen’t know what teleology means at all. Jock says says they must not mean what you think they mean, and so what if they. And Allan says that’s just what physics does-nothing to see here. This is the skepticism of the skeptic. Its a pink unicorn.

  19. phoodoo:

    BTW KN, I am still waiting to hear if you believe teleology exist in biology-and by teleology I mean what your authors your referenced are talking about, not your perverted defintion of teleology.You know (even when you pretend you don’t)- Goal oriented.

    I sense a bit of equivocation here about what “biology” is intended to mean. Do organisms have goals? Sure, I doubt anyone will deny that even bacteria have goals – to eat and reproduce. But do genes have goals? I’d say genes have goals the same way water has the “goal” to run downhill. The need to eat and reproduce is, I would say, a genuine purpose and motivation.

    How much scrutiny goes on here about claiming a “new” novel funtion was developed by Lenski’s experiments. You guys will suck up anything that furthers your God hate.

    This is always amusing. I suspect few people here can work up much hate for a figment of your imagination. But did Lenski’s experiments produce a “new” novel function? Well, his bacteria developed the ability to do something they never could previously. Is this a new function? My take is, the concepts of new and novel can be stretched or shrunk as much as required to fit a foregone conclusion.

  20. Epigenetic modifications affect the rate of spontaneous mutations in a pathogenic fungus

    Mutations generate heritable genetic variants upon which selection or drift can act. Therefore, detailed insights into the molecular processes that determine rates of mutation are central to our understanding of evolution1. In eukaryotes, DNA is organized in chromatin, which regulates transcription as well as DNA replication and DNA repair, and thereby appears to affect the mutation rate2. Posttranslational histone modifications shape the chromatin condensation state from euchromatin to heterochromatin3. In filamentous fungi trimethylation of lysine 9 of histone H3 (H3K9me3) is associated with constitutive heterochromatin and the suppression of transcription and transposition of transposable elements (TEs)4. In contrast, the trimethylation of the lysine 27 of histone H3 (H3K27me3) is associated with facultative heterochromatin that is enriched in the subtelomeric regions and in accessory genome compartments, and, in some species, also regulates gene expression5,6,7. Next to the role in transcriptional regulation, histone modifications also play a role in maintaining the integrity of the genome and its faithful transmission to daughter cells8,9,10,11. Moreover, chromatin organization was shown to correlate with the mutation rate in comparative genomic studies10,12,13,14. However, a causal resolution of this correlation by experimental manipulation has so far been missing.

    Taken together, we find that epigenetic modifications and environmental conditions modify the rate and the location of spontaneous mutations in the genome and alter its evolutionary trajectory.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26108-y

    There are a zillion of these studies that use all kinds of wording which promotes their conformation bias, but for which there is no evidence at all. They talk all about how mutations are random, but most are deleterious but the ones that are good get selected for, and on this bullshit they build their paradign-even if it makes zero sense at all. Where are the skeptics? They are out having conferences talking about how mean God is.

    How can you “alter” evolutions trajectory if it has no trajectory?

  21. Flint: Sure, I doubt anyone will deny that even bacteria have goals – to eat and reproduce

    No that’s what they do, that is not a goal. Unless you believe they have a goal-welcome to design.

    Well, his bacteria developed the ability to do something they never could previously.

    Uh, no they didn’t. You must be a skeptic-you will believe anything anyone tells you.

    Flint: I’d say genes have goals the same way water has the “goal” to run downhill.

    That is not the word goal that anyone who uses English means when they speak of having a goal. If you want to bastardize the langauge we are communicating in to mean anything you want, save that for your fireside chat with the other skeptics. That’s not what normal people mean by goal, nor what any author who speaks of goals means. Because if they did, the people buying their books would throw them out. No one says when someone steps on a patch of ice and slips and falls and breaks their hip, they had a goal of breaking their hip. This is not how English works. We don’t change words to mean something else and expect all others to accept it.

  22. phoodoo: No that’s what they do, that is not a goal.Unless you believe they have a goal-welcome to design.

    Yes, it’s a goal. They do it deliberately, with a purpose.

    Uh, no they didn’t.You must be a skeptic-you will believe anything anyone tells you.

    From what I read, yes they did. There is not even any ambiguity. They developed a new ability.

    That is not the word goal that anyone who uses English means when they speak of having a goal.

    Yes, that was exactly my point. Water does not have goals. Goals require the capability to have some intent, some motivation. What I’m trying to convey is that intentions and goals are something possessed, and acted on, by entire organisms but not by parts of that organism. When you eat, your arm and hand don’t have the goal of getting food to your mouth, YOU do. Genes have no such goals.

    They talk all about how mutations are random, but most are deleterious but the ones that are good get selected for, and on this bullshit they build their paradign-even if it makes zero sense at all. Where are the skeptics?

    Why has positive feedback suddenly become “bullshit”? Could it be that you don’t understand positive feedback loops? Or, more likely, could it be that you WILL not understand positive feedback when it works to produce something you CANNOT will yourself to grasp?

    To paraphrase an old quote from Upton Sinclair, it is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his religious faith depends on him NOT understanding it.

  23. Flint: To paraphrase an old quote, it is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his religious faith depends on him NOT understanding it.

    With religious faith ,you already understand all you need.

  24. phoodoo: No one says when someone steps on a patch of ice and slips and falls and breaks their hip, they had a goal of breaking their hip.

    The old lady might not have the goal to break her hip , but it must be part of the designer’s plan. Unless undesigned stuff occurs .That would complicate things . We been told the world is not designed to be whipped cream. Bad stuff has to happen, hips breaking, cancer occurring ,occasional tornadoes .

  25. velikovskys: The old lady might not have the goal to break her hip , but it must be part of the designer’s plan.

    Absolutely not, if one believes in free will.

    But some here get mad at a God who would have a world which has free will. They want a world with everything already decided for them, so that they can go bungee jumping without a bungee, and can shoot people with bullets that don’t hurt. You know, Cool Whip bullets. Wouldn’t it be great to stop having to care for your children, your wife or anyone-just do nothing?

  26. phoodoo: But some here get mad at a God who would have a world which has free will. They want a world with everything already decided for them, so that they can go bungee jumping without a bungee,

    Oh dear. You have this backwards. In the (hyporthetical) clockwork universe, they cannot “go bungee jumping without a bungee”: they cannot do anything except what they are predestined to do. In the universe with phoodoo’s version of free will, there are (per phoodoo) no limitations whatsoever on their behavior, they can fly unscathed through the sun or go bungee jumping without a bungee. We have pointed out this problem with phoodoo free will previously.
    I did like the bit about equivocation of “goal” though, that was inspired.

  27. There’s been an interesting spat between Gary Hurd and Matt Young at Panda’s Thumb over an article by Jerry Coyne criticising New Zealand govt. for planning to bring Maori folk science into mainstream science classes. There’s a fair bit of point missing. I’m tempted to try an OP if I have time. Let the divine foot in the door with Maori ways of knowing and before you know… But cultural heritage and folk knowledge has value. Need they conflict?

  28. DNA_Jock: We have pointed out this problem with phoodoo free will previously.

    I have pointed out previously the problem of you claiming “we” have pointed something out previously, as if in your mind you have won something in your delusional mind. Whose version of predestined are you talking about? Certainly not any version which involves free will which any religion espouses, nor one in which I have ever proposed.

    No, no Jock, the religions of the world that I know of, and the version of free will I believe in suggests that you can do as you wish within the confines of the world in which you live, and there indeed will be consequences for all these choices you have made. A world without choices and consequences? That is the vat brain world which all the angry atheists wishes God would have made.

  29. Alan Fox,

    I don’t know if Jerry Coyne is a racist (it certainly wouldn’t be a surprise) but I do know for a fact, he is both a complete asshole, and a not very bright one.

  30. phoodoo:
    Alan Fox, I don’t know if Jerry Coyne is a racist (it certainly wouldn’t be a surprise) but I do know for a fact, he is both a complete asshole, and a not very bright one.

    And yet he speaks so well of you. Go figure! 😏

  31. phoodoo: I have pointed out previously the problem of you claiming “we” have pointed something out previously, as if in your mind you have won something in your delusional mind. Whose version of predestined are you talking about? Certainly not any version which involves free will which any religion espouses, nor one in which I have ever proposed.

    Happy to oblige. Last time around, your theodicy involved the inability of your Omnipotent Deity to prevent even one instance of child abuse without removing free will. You clearly had not thought this through. At the time I noted

    Mired as phoodoo is in dichotomous thinking, he reckons that any restriction on human choices must entail the destruction of “free will”. If phoodoo has free will, then phoodoo can fly through the sun unscathed, per phoodoo. He has not quite grasped God’s omnipotence nor omniscience either; as a result of these two failures to comprehend, he is supremely confident that there is no such thing as a “problem of evil”….As to how humans prevent child abuse, my daughter’s bff was 11 when she found a straight right to the nose remarkably effective; I cited Alyssa Bonal, because there’s video.

    The rest of that thread is an entertaining read, in particular your responses to velikovskys.
    Epic!

  32. DNA_Jock: If phoodoo has free will, then phoodoo can fly through the sun unscathed, per phoodoo

    Wrong. Spectacularly wrong. After you write such dribble, I have to debunk the REST of your nonsense??

    DNA_Jock: As to how humans prevent child abuse, my daughter’s bff was 11 when she found a straight right to the nose remarkably effective

    Your proposal of a God who only intervenes sometimes, like times when Jock wants him to, but not other times, but which stills maintains consequences for one’s actions, is laughable in its toddler like philosophical musings.

  33. Alan Fox: … Maori folk science into mainstream science classes.

    I did read the initial post at PT, but I have not been following the discussion there. And I have been reading Jerry Coyne’s posts on the issue.

    Personally, I do not have a problem with teaching Maori traditions. This might even be important for New Zealanders. But I would have preferred that they not use the science class for that project.

    To me, Jerry Coyne’s reactions seem a tad excessive.

  34. phoodoo: No, no Jock, the religions of the world that I know of, and the version of free will I believe in suggests that you can do as you wish within the confines of the world in which you live, and there indeed will be consequences for all these choices you have made.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/independent-uk-body-says-china-committed-genocide-against-uighurs-in-xinjiang

    Tribunal chair Geoffrey Nice said the genocide ruling was based on evidence that the Chinese government’s forced birth control and sterilization policies targeting Uighurs in the far western Xinjiang province were “intended to destroy a significant part” of the group’s population. The abuse was part of comprehensive policies directly linked to President Xi Jinping and the highest levels of the Chinese government, he said.

    What will be the consequences for your support of ethnic cleansing, I wonder…

    And odd how you don’t believe the vast amounts of well documented evidence for these crimes against humanity but insist a dog can use PSI….

    Kantian Naturalist: Of course he understands the difference. He’s just pretending not to.

    And if he stopped pretending he’d have to start to listen to the undeniable evidence that the well documented oppression is actually happening. So he won’t be doing that, not as long as they continue to pay him anyway.

    How many people have you informed on personally phoodoo?

  35. phoodoo: BTW KN, I am still waiting to hear if you believe teleology exist in biology-and by teleology I mean what your authors your referenced are talking about, not your perverted defintion of teleology. You know (even when you pretend you don’t)- Goal oriented.

    I don’t know what was supposedly “perverted” about my definition, since I was using the word exactly as Aristotle, Kant, and Hans Jonas use it — not to mention the more recent philosophers and theoretical biologists I had mentioned previously.

  36. Kantian Naturalist,

    Which one of these was that:

    Definition of teleology
    1a: the study of evidences of design in nature
    b: a doctrine (as in vitalism) that ends are immanent in nature
    c: a doctrine explaining phenomena by final causes
    2: the fact or character attributed to nature or natural processes of being directed toward an end or shaped by a purpose
    3: the use of design or purpose as an explanation of natural phenomena

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/teleology

    Or if you prefer, Encyclopedia Brittanica:

    teleology, (from Greek telos, “end,” and logos, “reason”), explanation by reference to some purpose, end, goal, or function.

    Does biological development have a purpose, goal, end game, or function? Are there evidences of design in nature? Is there a final cause?

  37. phoodoo: The skeptic’s creed.

    Hardly unless Jesus was a skeptic “ Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”

  38. phoodoo: Does biological development have a purpose, goal, end game, or function? Are there evidences of design in nature? Is there a final cause?

    Most of biological development ends extinction , is extinction a goal, end game ? A final cause?

  39. Alan Fox:
    CharlieM,
    All you provided so far is a list of publications. Which one do you find convincing and why?

    I think the double slit experiments are fruitful for obtaining repeatable, greater than chance results. The collapse of the wave function in itself is a mystery to modern physics. If it can be shown that minds can have an influence on the measurements of the interference pattern then that is something that should be taken seriously.

    The double slit experiment carried out between 2012 and 2013 gathered a lot of data for analysis, but the results of this experiment could not be published until 2019, see here. If Radin’s analysis is correct then there is a definite effect.

    They have also done some work with entangled photons which should be worth pursuing further.

    In this video Radin talks about experiments with quantum effects. He gives details of a few of double slit experiments beginning at this point. Also he talks about a global consciousness projects that they instigated.

    If his findings are valid in any of these research areas then he is on to something.

  40. Corneel:
    CharlieM: Think of the relationship between the etheric and the physical as the same as the relationship between the ideal triangle and a physical representation of a triangle.

    Corneel: Oh, but I am.

    CharlieM: The ideal triangle is not governed by any measurement in space and its laws remain constant for all times. Any physical triangle is transient and amenable to measurement.

    Goethe’s archetypal plant is of the nature of the etheric. Any physical plant is a representative of the archetype.

    Corneel: In my experience it is the other way around. The archetype usually turns out to be a representative of all organisms that you mentally group, like “plants”. And what may those be? It’s all that green stuff, innit?

    So if humans had never existed there would be no such things as mammals because that is just a mental group. Is that what you are saying?

  41. CharlieM: If it can be shown that minds can have an influence on the measurements of the interference pattern then that is something that should be taken seriously.

    I agree 100%.

    CharlieM: If his findings are valid in any of these research areas then he is on to something.

    I agree 100%.

    Soooo, any reason to think that either of your (CYA) conditionals are correct, in light of Walleczek and Stillfried, and similar criticisms? Have you reviewed the Global Consciousness 9/11 data?

    I hope you understand why linking to a video, or a meta-analysis, does not constitute a response. Only pre-specified analyses matter. Do I need to explain why?

  42. phoodoo,
    Omnipotence, u r doin it rong.

    To put it another way, that is one lame-ass weak deity that you are worshiping, kid. He needs to up his game, and get back to some serious infidel-smiting. I mean, really, I should have been struck by lightning by now. 😉

  43. Neil Rickert: Personally, I do not have a problem with teaching Maori traditions. This might even be important for New Zealanders. But I would have preferred that they not use the science class for that project.

    There are several overlapping issues, political and scientific. I will try and put up an OP in a few days.

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