In another post, recent contributor TomMueller stated that GPS satellites use relativistic synchronization to match up their clocks with earthbound clocks. I explained to him that this was not so, even though its easy to believe, if you don’t think critically, that it is.
Tom followed my post to him with a litany of ad hominem, “Oh, you are a moron, you are a troll, creationist idiots, I read about it on a credible site, I talked to a physics professor about it…” and on and on he went with his insults and denial.
Now to be fair to Tom, if you just read mainstreams sites, like Wikipedia, or Wired or Salon, or even many science websites, this is the information you will find-that GPS satellites use Einstein’s theory of relativity to sync their clocks to earth clocks. Its written everywhere, surely it must be true. But I know why its not true, because I actually thought about it. At first I just had a hunch about it, but again, if you just google it, most sites will tell you its true. But it didn’t make sense to me, for so many reasons. What clocks are the satellite clocks syncing with, a GPS’s receivers clock? Huh? How precise are they? For that matter, how precise are any clocks. Its nearly impossible to ever get ANY two clocks to match.
I also read about the so called Haefele-Keating atomic clocks, where relativistic changes in clocks due to speed was tested and confirmed aboard airplanes going around the earth. Again, everywhere you looked online, they say its true. It was tested, it worked. And its bullshit. But how would one know, if all you did was read what is supposedly credible sources, written by academics and scholars and Wikipedia…
I wouldn’t even bother telling you how I learned it was not true. I wouldn’t even bother citing sources, because all skeptics do is try to spew the same old defense, “Oh, that source is for cranks, try MY sources, they are the best parrots for information.” I learned by thinking, skeptics will never understand that.
And so here’s the thing, I didn’t learn that things are complete bullshit, by just going to the vast amount of sources online that claim they are true, instead I thought about. But here’s what skeptics, as ironic as it sounds, tell you to do. They tell you to just accept the common wisdom. Accept that these science facts must be true, because someone famous says so. Accept that evolution is true, accept that GMO foods are good for you, accept that Oswald acted alone, accept that alternative medicine is all fake, accept that bigPharm is looking out for your best interests, accept materialism, accept that every time you hear about a study which contradicts strict materialism it must be wrong, accept that every time someone challenges the scientific consensus, then they are by definition quacks, and basically just stop thinking for yourself. The skeptical movement is founded on the exact opposite principle of be skeptical, instead it means to simply follow whatever the skeptic movement tells you must be right.
Its the same everywhere, on podcast like the Skeptics Guide to the Universe, or anything with Seth Shostak, or Michael Shermer, or Phil Plaitt, or Neil Degrasse Tyson or Bill Nye, or any of the whole community of people who identify themselves as skeptics, by virtue that they all believe exactly the same things. This toxic thought has seeped into virtually every source of information you can find, be it television, news, blogs, everywhere. They will claim they are deep thinkers, and this is how they found the answers, buts its a con game, they are anything but, they are sheep. They never have an original thought, ever. I think I even read Lawrence Krauss repeating this same crap line about relativity and GPS satellites-and he has a PhD in physics, for crying out loud. But don’t ask him to think, he prefers to just parrot the party line, its so much easier.
So nowadays where do you find truth, it sure as hell ain’t easy, thanks to these brainwashed preachers of the scientific consensus. Its what leads Allan to make ludicrous statements about what fitness means, its what leads parrots like Tom Mueller to say, “Oh, I read it about it, so how dare you say its not true! Moron!”
The skeptic movement is one of the biggest diseases to stifle learning that I can think of. They cloud every news article, and every attempt at understanding with their atheist based need to preach their worldview. Its just like Lynn Margulis said, they want to tell everyone what to think, by telling them to stop thinking. I despise these types of thought Nazis. They are the worst thing that has ever happened to academia.
Alan, there is so much nonsense about relativity and clocks out there, that to believe any of it is requires a complete closing of one’s thinking facilities.
Do you believe the Hafele–Keating experiments?
Alan Fox,
Do you believe if one of the clocks happened to be poor, that people would all be driving off cliffs?
Oh please, please, please!
We’re on the cusp of either great insight or great comedy – it’s not fair to deprive us of either!
Woodbine,
You say this as if you live in an alternative universe, in which I care which facts you believe and don’t believe.
Do you live in THAT universe?
No. But if compensating adjustments are needed to the satellite clocks to retain accuracy, it looks like confirmation that time dilation is a real phenomenon.
Lynn Margulis also has some opinions that I believe you do not agree with, her being an evolutionary biologist and a champion of endosymbiont theory. It looks very odd to see you paraphrasing some statement of her that happens to be consonant with your rant, because I am pretty sure you are completely rejecting her scientific contributions to biology.
Wait, what? Its strange to quote someone and say you agree with them, unless you agree with everything they said?
That’s what you believe?
Alan Fox,
But Alan, you realize that sometimes clocks malfunction, right?
So if we relied on a clocks accuracy to be sure the GPS is right, do you think if there was a poor clock, we might accidentally bomb the Vatican instead of Syria?
No, that is perfectly fine. What is weird is to completely reject someone’s contribution to the field of their expertise, but then quote that person in support whenever she says something that you happen to agree with, because …you know… then that person must be right.
ETA: corrected typo
phoodoo,
No. People generally managed OK before GPS and mobile phones. But I’m still wondering what you are disagreeing with. Do you think relativity does not need correcting for in GPS systems?
Alan Fox,
I mean, why don’t you believe that Alan? If you believe the accuracy of the clocks is vital to ensuring the GPS is right, why don’t you believe a bad clock could cause our military to bomb Italy instead of Syria?
It would require the belief that GPS coordinates require only one clock
Phoodoo is ignoring questions. He’s basically just created a thread in order to state “I don’t believe these things, and I don’t believe the experts who say these things, or the sources wherein they are stated or written”.
There is no back and forth of any sort. Phoodoo isn’t interesting in discussing whether he is, or even could be wrong.
Okay phoodoo, we are now aware of your opinions. We already were, but whatever.
Edit: I changed my mind. Let’s see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Perhaps the magnitude of the error there is unrealistic (Italy vs Syria), bombs aren’t dropped “on countries”. What an… american way to think. Hey, let’s “bomb Syria”. Never mind where in Syria. A field, a mountainside, a lake. Doesn’t matter, as long as it’s in Syria.
They are dropped on specific targets WITHIN countries. Usually particular buildings in particular cities, or particular vehicles, to an accuracy of a few meters.
But I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to miss a target, perhaps up to several kilometers, with a cruise missile guided by a GPS system that doesn’t take relativistic effects into account. The claim is that an unsynchronized GPS satellite clock could potentially cause a 10 mile misalignment if the unsynchronized error is allowed to accumulate over a week.
You seem to think that is a preposterous idea. Why? You thought about it. And? What did you actually think, about it?
Enough of the stupid rhetorical questions you ask, why don’t you TELL us WHY the GPS system doesn’t require time adjustments due to relativistic effects?
@phoodoo
Rumraket,
Do you believe in the Hafele–Keating experiment as well? I mean, what reason would they have to lie?
Clocks sometimes malfunction. Oh how can anyone ever tell time then?
This is up there with the intensely debilitating stupidity of Mung’s “… except when it doesn’t”-remark.
You tell me. You seem to think it’s false. Okay, I get it, you think it’s bullshit.
Why? I’m missing the reason you think it’s false. Enlighten me.
In what way is the Hafaele-Keating experiment false?
It didn’t ever happen at all?
They got another result than they claim?
They’re actually lizards, not people?
We’re all in the Matrix?
Chemtrails!
What?
C’mon, don’t hold back. What actually happened?
Agreed with all this, and I’ve got my popcorn ready and waiting. Let’s do this!
phoodoo,
Hahaha! I live in a universe where I see someone going to great, almost-daily pains to tell the world just how little of a shit he gives about what it thinks. 🙂
Phoodoo will determine who discovered America in the same way he susses out the truth about GPS, evolution, GMOs, and poltergeists: By thinking about it. It’s the only safe way, since, obviously, every other source is suspect.
Who actually won the game last night, phoodoo? I mean, I watched it myself, but it was on TV–which we all know is fake.
Rumraket,
Wait, I asked you what YOU believe, and you are saying I am not the one answering questions?
You (and KN) are totally ignoring the point of the thread, that skepticism is all about believing in a pre-determied set of beliefs, because the group says so.
Its beyond ridiculous for me to prove the claims about relativity are false, because your side is well known for moving the goalposts. If I show you that one widely held claim is bullshit, then you will just shift and say, Yea, ok fine, but that doesn’t mean the other claims are bullshit. Talk about a rabbit hole.
You can believe whatever you want, you will just continue to be wrong.
You have many opinions about things you know nothing about.
BTW, phoodoo’s skepticism is almost to the Keiths level at this point.
This is going to be a very helpful thread to have available. Next time we are discussing natural selection and phoodoo chimes in with the argument that fitness is a meaningless concept, I can send people here to see how seriously to take phoodoo’s arguments. Will save a lot of time.
Allan Miller,
No, you live in a universe where everything you say is not what you meant you said.
Its the same universe where you have epileptic seizures at the thought of admitting you are wrong.
phoodoo,
Haha! Like shooting fish in a barrel. How could I possibly have anticipated that retort? Chortle.
We all do. The solution you propose, to yield all unto phoodoo where pretty much everyone disagrees with him, is a particularly bad one. I encourage humility; you’re too fond of your own views to consider that.
Really Walto. You are the one who earlier claimed that skepticism has nothing to do with believing in the safety of GMO foods, and then when I referred you to 7 skeptical articles promoting exactly that belief, you said, Oh, I don’t know anything about skeptic societies.
That is some of the worst examples of reading comprehension I have seen on this site in some time.
And I am including the contributions from Rumraket.
I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. I said nothing about GMO foods, because I know even less about them than you do–if that’s possible.
Well, let me revise it into something that you’re more likely to agree with, but which has precisely the same result from the phoodoo perspective:
Everyone should forget everything they’ve heard or read about everything, and simply think for themselves. {And when they come up with anything that phoodoo, after consideration, disagrees with, they’re just wrong.}
And, leaving aside all media sources, and doubting what I think I saw on TV last night, who won the freaking game??
phoodoo,
Yeah, must be quite frustrating when people misinterpret what you say.
What phoodoo understands is precisely what SHOULD be understood, Allan. That’s, like, the point of this OP.
I think phoodoo is fighting with a straw man and losing.
I believe the Hafaele-Keating experiment took place, and they got the results they claim they got.
Your turn. All my questions to you are:
You seem to think it’s false. Okay, I get it, you think it’s bullshit.
Why? I’m missing the reason you think it’s false. Enlighten me.
In what way is the Hafaele-Keating experiment false?
It didn’t ever happen at all?
They got another result than they claim?
They’re actually lizards, not people?
We’re all in the Matrix?
Chemtrails!
What?
C’mon, don’t hold back. What actually happened?
********
About GPS:
But I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to miss a target, perhaps up to several kilometers, with a cruise missile guided by a GPS system that doesn’t take relativistic effects into account. The claim is that an unsynchronized GPS satellite clock could potentially cause a 10 mile misalignment if the unsynchronized error is allowed to accumulate over a week.
You seem to think that is a preposterous idea. Why? You thought about it. And? What did you actually think, about it?
Enough of the stupid rhetorical questions you ask, why don’t you TELL us WHY the GPS system doesn’t require time adjustments due to relativistic effects?
*******
About LYING about GPS:
Phoodoo, seriously, what purpose could be served by lying about GPS?
What evidence do you have that they’re lying?
Could you be wrong and how do we find that out?
I have answered that in the only way appropriate: Please demonstrate that “skepticism is all about believing in a pre-determined set of beliefs, because the group says so.”
I’ve never seen such a position advocated by any skeptic group or organization. And I don’t advocate such a position myself, despite the fact that I think of myself as a skeptic.
I have also shown how you accusing skeptics (wrongly, I might add) of telling people to just believe shit because it’s “common wisdom” or because “the group says so”, is hypocritical given how you in this very same thread, have told others do to exactly that.
No, it isn’t ridiculous at all.
I have two competing claims before me.
1. The claims of a community of physicists, aerospace engineers and astronomers, who are supposed to be experts in this sort of thing, and who all inform me that’s how GPS systems work.
2. And then I have you. Who say it’s bullshit, but you won’t say why.
The scientists have given their explanation, and it makes sense to me. And I have you who say it doesn’t work that way, but you won’t even explain why.
Oh gee who do I pick here.
Uhhh yes, if you show a particular claim is bullshit, then yeah okay, fine. the claim is then bullshit. And yes, that really doesn’t mean other claims are also bullshit.
If you show me that GPS systems don’t work how they are claimed to work, then I won’t just blindly believe you when you then also say another entirely unrelated thing is bullshit too.
We have to take these things on a case by case basis.
I’m pretty sure bullshitters some times say true things, and that generally trustworthy people some times are either wrong, or say bullshit. We can’t just dismiss everything on a single instance of getting something wrong.
And if you won’t even inform me of HOW they are wrong, then how am I supposed to discover it?
You claim you just thought about it. Great, good for you, you must be a really clever guy. Much more clever than me, for sure. I can’t seem to figure it out, will you help me?
Thank you for telling me. Now will you answer questions, or are you just here to inform us that you think it’s all bullshit? Because we already know that.
Can you give me the basics of how satellites ‘triangulate based on other satellites’?
His letter to George C. Marshall describing the conditions in the Ohrdruf concentration camp that “beggar description” is one of the main responses used to shut up Holocaust deniers. Since it was a first hand account and the letter is undeniably authentic, Holocaust deniers have adopted the strategy of trying to discredit him and his military career.
If this is truly the only point of this thread, then okay. You’ve stated your opinion and we disagree, we don’t think skepticism is “all about believing in a pre-determied set of beliefs, because the group says so.”
So now what do we do from here? Do we just take turns saying “yeah it is”, “no it isn’t”? Or do we discuss some of the examples of bullshit you gave?
Are you going to supply quotes for all the claims you made in the op at any point, btw? I asked you in this post to demonstrate the truth of the claims you made about skepticism in general, and particular skeptics and scientists.
Here’s what I think: You can’t support EVEN A SINGLE ONE of them with an actual quote.
Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
No actually, I think skeptics generally say that you should read the primary literature if you can, and then think for yourself about what you read. I haven’t met anyone who really says you should just blindly accept and believe what everyone else believes. In fact I find that to be the opposite of what skepticism is about.
I have never EVER heard of any skeptic who says that. I don’t think you can find even a single example of that. Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says “GMO foods are good for you”? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Phoodoo: accept that every time you hear about a study which contradicts strict materialism it must be wrong
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Who even says that? Give quotes from skeptics or their organizations.
Since you cannot support a single one of these, and since you know it and said it anyway, it is actually YOU who is a LIAR.
Rumraket,
Very nice summation, Rum.
Aha! Thanks. I didn’t know that.
Of course you do, because you believe whatever you want.
The clocks all got different times, they couldn’t get ANY of the clocks to agree (they used 4). Vibrations, the plane landing and taking off, and just the inability to get one clock to be the same as another made the experiment a complete failure. Have you ever read the raw data (of course, who would you, you are a skeptic, you will believe anything)?
The clocks gave wildly different and contradictory results.
Go read about it some more, come back, tell me you still believe it, then change the subject.
Because this is what you do, because you are a mindless twit.
Always happy to save someone else the trouble of identifying trends in nuttiness if possible. One other sidebar and then I promise to try and stay on topic:
If you ever have the misfortune to chat with someone who openly admits to doubting the truth of the Lunar-Landing, ask them if they think there are alien bodies and crashed UFO’s in Roswell;-)
Why do you believe stuff you read on the internet?
I can synchronize clocks just by thinking about male ass
ok, enough of that, that joke has run it’s course
Is that the reason why I believe it? Why would I want to believe that? What purpose does that serve? And how do you know that is the reason why I believe it?
Didn’t you just tell me in this very thread, that: “You have many opinions about things you know nothing about.” ?
Those are your words to me. but here you are telling why I believe the things I do, despite not having the slightest clue. Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite? I think it does.
I haven’t read the raw data no, because I never found it interesting to do that. I don’t have the time to check literally everything I read. Neither have you. Or let me modify that: You might have, you probably don’t read all that much.
But let’s do that together then.
Where do I find the raw data? I googled and found the publication with the prediction, and the one with the observed values. There are tables with predicted numbers, and tables with observed numbers, in those two. Are those the ones? I’m guessing that’s not it, because they seem to agree very well.
So where do I find the raw data and how do I verify that it’s actual raw data?
I can’t find the “raw data”. I can only find the publications in science. Where do I find this supposed “raw data”?
The one with the observed values is from here.
The one with the predicted values is from here.
Thanks man, appreciate it. 🙂
Will you answer my questions anytime soon?
I’ve been to the International UFO Museum Research Center in a converted movie theater in Roswell. Of course ,it is real story . Not to believe that would make one a skeptic, a sheep following scientific consensus .To believe makes one a skeptic of science which is totally different.
I am skeptical of that
Hahaha. Excellent. The thing is, phoodoo likely gets this stuff from one of the conspiracy theory internet sites that he likes. And why does he like those particular sites? My guess is that religion (i.e., fear of death) is at the base of the whole magilla. Start with that, then begin getting into fights with atheists and agnostics at places like this. Next, look for sites that disagree with those folks on every conceivable issue. Those sites are, of course, exempt from phoodoo’s anti-internet checking rule. Then, all you need to do is convince yourself that you’re “thinking” of all these things yourself. Et voila!