It’s time to start a continuation thread for Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul, because the original thread is being affected by a software bug. Only the final page of comments is affected.
Moderators, could one of you move all of the comments (except for the metacomments) from the final page to here? Also, could you inform Sriskandarajah by email about this new thread, in case he has bookmarked the old one? Thanks.
Sriskandarajah,
The question of identity is a complicated one, but we don’t need to solve it here. The question at hand is whether an immaterial soul exists. If we are clear about what we mean by “an immaterial soul”, then we can attempt to answer the question.
In the OP, I spell out what I mean by “an immaterial soul” and show that the split-brain evidence undermines it.
Some things are worth repeating!
I’m not sure what you are trying to say there. I can conceive of the idea of a soul or “inner being”, and as a child I used to believe that I had an immaterial soul, but now I think the evidence undermines that belief. And not just the split-brain evidence, but a vast swath of evidence showing that the things that the soul is supposed to do are actually carried out by the brain.
Again, it isn’t necessary to answer that question if we simply want to know whether the immaterial soul exists. All we have to do is to define what we mean by “an immaterial soul”, and then test that concept against the available evidence.
You mentioned “awareness” as one function of the soul. If the soul is responsible for awareness, then why does awareness vanish when the brain is anesthetized?
Memory is another good example. If the soul is what remembers, then why do people lose memories after a hard blow to the head? Why do Alzheimer’s patients lose memories?
The answer is obvious: memories are stored in the brain, not in the (ficitious) soul.
We (materialsts) don’t know the answer yet, but neither do you (dualists). How do sensations like pain, hunger, etc., arise from an immaterial soul? If dualists can’t answer the question either, then it provides no reason to favor dualism over materialism.
It doesn’t matter (heh). We are trying to determine whether there is an immaterial soul, not how matter came into existence.
Yes. When someone dies, the world continues to exist.
We discussed that in this thread:
Thus I refute Johnson
Note, however, that we are talking about an immaterial soul that inhabits and controls the body. If matter doesn’t exist, then the body doesn’t exist. If the body doesn’t exist, then “an immaterial soul that inhabits and controls the body” doesn’t exist either.
Atheism is a conclusion I (reluctantly) reached after examining the evidence. I was conditioned by my parents, my church, and my society to be a theist, and I was quite comfortable as one. My atheism is a result of a lot of hard work, plus my desire to know the truth. It is not the result of “conditioning”.
Kaiths,
keiths on April 6, 2014 at 8:23 pm said:
petrushka,
A side effect of dualism.
You, people carry the false identity labels like atheism or dualism. I don’t carry any such labels. So I don’t have any side effects of such labels.
“That’s not quite true. People do sometimes wish to die, for various reasons.”
When you say that people do sometimes wish to die for various reasons it means that you are not aware of the general situation in this world. Under normal situation we do not want to die. I am not talking about the exceptions and abnormal situations. Many scientists are engaged in massive researches to cure the serious diseases. Hospitals are built for the sick people. Why? To die?
“I’m a meditator, so I appreciate the value of introspection. However, it has its limitations, and one of those is that it can be quite inaccurate. What we think is going on in our minds is often quite different from what is really going on, and it is science that is best placed to get to the bottom of the discrepancy.”
I don’t want you to meditate. That is a different subject. I don’t want you to see inwardly through the knowledge of science. That is stupid. You need science for an example to travel quickly from one place to another place or grow more food and so on. You don’t need science to see inwardly. You may need science to see inside your brain. I asked you to see what is going on moment to moment inwardly. There is no problem of accuracy or inaccuracy to observe your emotions, feelings, thoughts and to see what you are and how you disappear in deep sleep and how you come back from sleep or from anesthesia. You can’t see your brain directly. But you can see directly what is going on in your inner world.
“Not just awareness. Also separate knowledge, memories, desires, beliefs, personalities, and so on.”
Knowledge, memories, desires, beliefs and personalities are not permanent. They are transient, always changing. But awareness is the observation of all the changes going on in an individual existence. Awareness is one and the same.
“I actually like the word ‘soul’, but I usually put the word ‘material’ in front of it to prevent confusion and to emphasize that there is nothing ghostly about it. It’s a physical phenomenon, and all indications are that it comes to an end when the body dies.”
I don’t think of ghost or spirit. I don’t have the evidences of medium or near death experience. I don’t believe even evidences. Seeing directly without any evidences is the truth. Please explain what do you mean by physical and non physical? What do you mean by material and immaterial? You make dualism. Don’t you see whether physical or non physical or material or immaterial are all your sense of experiences.
Do you say that there is an existence of material soul and it comes to an end when the body dies? If so, please explain the physical phenomenon of the soul? What is that physical soul? Is it neurons? Is it brain process? Is it chemical reaction? Is it electromagnetic field? How did you find that material soul? You say that when the boy dies it also dies. So when we are alive where it exists? Is it a permanent existence till the body dies? How it came into existence? In what form it exists?
“An important clue is that our awareness vanishes in certain situations, for example when we are under anesthesia. If the soul is immaterial, then why should awareness depend so totally on the physical brain?
You mentioned “awareness” as one function of the soul. If the soul is responsible for awareness, then why does awareness vanish when the brain is anesthetized?”
I didn’t mention “awareness” as one function of the soul. I ask the same question to you not why does but how does awareness vanish when the brain is anesthetized since you know the brain function well.
Soul is not responsible for awareness. Are you responsible for awareness? It arises itself and disappears without your knowledge. Do you know how it arises? Do you know how unconscious material molecules become aware of other material molecules? That is the mystery.
You asked me the function of an inner being. I explained your role in your life since you are the inner being.
It is true that our sense of experiences depends on brain. I don’t say that soul exists. There may be no soul. That is different thing. But your explanation to disprove soul has no meaning at all. Is there any awareness when there are no experiences? Awareness also ends when all experiences come to an end. Experiences are arising through the brain. So when the brain is under anesthesia the arising of sensations stops. So we don’t feel any sensations. So, no awareness. You still exists but without awareness.
Awareness and existence are different aspects. I may exist without awareness. During deep sleep or under anesthesia there is no awareness. But I am not dead. I exist. So when the brain dies awareness may come to an end. But we can’t say existence also come to an end. We don’t need a soul or inner being to exist and to return from sleep or from the effect of anesthesia. How we return from sleep is the question. Do you know that? So there is a disappearance of awareness and return of awareness or re becoming. How does it happen? Please explain me. Don’t say any excuses.
“The question of identity is a complicated one, but we don’t need to solve it here. The question at hand is whether an immaterial soul exists. If we are clear about what we mean by “an immaterial soul”, then we can attempt to answer the question
. In the OP, I spell out what I mean by “an immaterial soul” and show that the split-brain evidence undermines it.
Again, it isn’t necessary to answer that question if we simply want to know whether the immaterial soul exists. All we have to do is to define what we mean by “an immaterial soul”, and then test that concept against the available evidence.
It doesn’t matter (heh). We are trying to determine whether there is an immaterial soul, not how matter came into existence.”
Why the question of identity is a complicated one and why you don’t need to solve it here? Having complications how can you come with conclusions?
Why do you want to know whether soul exists or not? What will happen to me if soul exists or doesn’t exist? What is the significant if scientists prove the non existence of soul? Do you think that soul is an existence separate from you? May I become non existence when Scientists find that there is no soul? They might say that there is no soul. But can they say that there are no you? Are you not sure that you exist? Do you want the scientists to prove that you exist? You understand that you exist now whether soul exists or not. So don’t think of soul. Think of what you are. First you should understand what you are than searching whether soul exists or not. I say that you are the soul. It is a name of your own existence.
I say that you are the inner being. You can’t see the inner being as a separate existence from you. But you want to see the inner being. So you say “No inner being”. You think of soul. So soul is fictitious. Are you fictitious? So think of you and find out what you are.
I know that I exist and I know that soul or inner being or atman is a name given to my real identity. So I don’t bother or give much importance to the names soul or inner being. There is an animal which we call cat in English. The name is not the animal. If you want to find out what cat is you will never find out. Because it is only a name. So you say that there is no cat. That is right. But what you want to see is the name which is not an existence. Similarly inner being or soul is a name to your existence which is a real existence and the name soul or inner being is not a real existence like the name cat.
You say that there is no ghost in the machine. I know that somebody has said that. You are also repeating that.
“Some things are worth repeating!”
Real statements are worth repeating. He compares our physical body with a machine. Our physical body is sensitive whereas a machine is senseless. So this statement also senseless.
“Memory is another good example. If the soul is what remembers, then why do people lose memories after a hard blow to the head? Why do Alzheimer’s patients lose memories?
The answer is obvious: memories are stored in the brain, not in the (ficitious) soul.”
I don’t know what you and others mean by the name soul. I don’t say memories are stored in soul. If it is stored in soul, I should be different existence from soul. I say that I am the soul if anyone wants to use this name. Memory is stored in a form through the brain. If I want remember a thing it comes to me through the brain and not from the soul because there is no such thing as soul separate from me. If the brain is damaged memory will be blocked. But the important aspect is that the memory when remembered comes to me. We are not aware of this “me”. That is why I ask what I am. If scientists can heal the damage brain then the person would regain his memory back. Alzheimer’s patient’s Memory is lost. But the existence is not lost. It is a very simple thing. If the existence is lost no point of doing research to heal Alzheimer’s patients. . Some Neurologists being unable to heal the Alzheimer’s patient make it a big evidence and comes with all kind of wrong conclusions. Split brains also a similar case but with another explanation.
“We (materialsts) don’t know the answer yet, but neither do you (dualists). How do sensations like pain, hunger, etc., arise from an immaterial soul? If dualists can’t answer the question either, then it provides no reason to favor dualism over materialism.”
You are a materialist. So why you are unable to answer my question about the reality of matter? You misunderstand me as a dualist. I am not an atheist, theist, skeptic, monist, dualist, materialist, spiritualist, naturalist, or rationalist. I do not want to carry these false identity labels without knowing myself. I hate to carry these labels. Man is making many divisions. You divide yourself as atheist and divide me as a dualist. Atheism is also a kind of superstition. God or soul is not the problem. Life is the problem. Our existence is the problem. We don’t know what we are. But we talk about God which is something beyond. Are you not aware of the human sufferings? First try to solve the problem of human sufferings mainly the sorrow of death. Then all other problems including soul will vanish.
Really I don’t know how sensations arising from material molecules. That is why I asked you. Since you have found that there is no soul, no god, and the body is the whole show, I thought you should have known the answer to this question. Because what you have found is a great invention. Sense of experiences does not arise from an immaterial soul. You have wrong information about soul. Sense of experiences arise through the brain.
“Can matter exist independent of our consciousness?
Yes. When someone dies, the world continues to exist.
Note, however, that we are talking about an immaterial soul that inhabits and controls the body. If matter doesn’t exist, then the body doesn’t exist. If the body doesn’t exist, then “an immaterial soul that inhabits and controls the body” doesn’t exist either.”
What do you mean by the term “inhabits”. That is a wrong term. Nothing inhabits this physical body. But there is a living reality which doesn’t inhabit the body. You are the living reality.
You say that when someone dies, the world continue to exist. You people need evidences for everything. So, what is the evidence for the existence of world in the absence of consciousness? There are other living people who also see the world but in their consciousness. So that cannot be the evidence. If all are dead, what is the evidence for the independent existence of world? I say, if all are dead, the world also cease to exist. Because, you see the world through your brain. Your brain makes the colorful world. The world and all material things are in your consciousness. Can you see the world or any material object outside your consciousness? The world co exists with your consciousness. So how can it exist alone in the absence of consciousness? So when consciousness ends the world also dies. Not only the world but the limitless universe with all the billions of galaxies and stars also die. This is a fact. When you are under anesthesia you don’t see the world. Only when you are conscious you are able to see the world and say that this material world exists now and existed before and will exist in the future. When we die this world and all material objects also die with us. You don’t accept this. Because millions of years human beings are used to think in such a pattern and deeply conditioned to see this world as a separate existence. It is also a superstition. Nobody knows whether this world could exist in absence of consciousness. It can’t exist. There is no evidence. Can you give any evidence? There is disappearance. Ending. But also there is a return or re becoming or beginning. That is the mystery.
“Have you looked at the evidence I’ve provided in this thread?
Rather than asking a lot of roundabout questions, it would be better if you would explain why the evidence I’ve presented doesn’t lead to the conclusion I draw.
Atheism is a conclusion I (reluctantly) reached after examining the evidence. I was conditioned by my parents, my church, and my society to be a theist, and I was quite comfortable as one. My atheism is a result of a lot of hard work, plus my desire to know the truth. It is not the result of “conditioning”.”
I think that some religious beliefs made you to become an atheist. But still you have not found any truth. I don’t find any meaning in atheism. There is no truth in atheism. Really you have moved from one set of beliefs to another set of beliefs. It’s all. Please understand that I don’t have any beliefs whether religious or material. But I don’t deny some religious beliefs.
I have to ask a lot of round about questions because you don’t understand what I say and you didn’t answer my important questions.
What is your conclusion? No God, No soul, No rebirth, Matter only exist. But you don’t know what you are. You don’t know the reality of matter. You don’t know what matter is. What are the evidences you have? Darwin’s theory, Split brain, damage brain, Alzheimer patient etc. There is no deep meaning in these evidences. Here I don’t want to explain how. I understand the limitations of these evidences. Did you find any truth in atheism? Atheism also a darkness. You can only say that there is no God. But you can’t say anything more deep. If you can reveal the mystery of all existence then that is really great. Not atheism. You may deny some religious beliefs. That is superficial with very little meaning.
“I’m not sure what you are trying to say there. I can conceive of the idea of a soul or “inner being”, and as a child I used to believe that I had an immaterial soul, but now I think the evidence undermines that belief. And not just the split-brain evidence, but a vast swath of evidence showing that the things that the soul is supposed to do are actually carried out by the brain.”
You say that you are not sure what I am trying to say there. You also say that you can conceive the idea of a soul or inner being. That is the problem which I want to say. You can’t conceive the soul or inner being. You can’t think of anything which is not in your memory. Whatever we see can only be recorded in the brain. You can’t see your eyes directly. Likewise you can’t see the inner being which is the real you. You and inner being are not separate. Both are one. Your idea or your imagination of an inner being makes it separate. You want to see it separately. You will never do that. Your idea of an inner being is fictitious. So you say that inner being is fictitious or there is no inner being. Really there is no inner being or soul other than you.
As a child you believed that you had an immaterial soul. Now you believe that you have a material brain. You can have a brain. But you can’t have an immaterial soul. It is a wrong belief. So , later you rejected it. Because you can’t have a soul. You are the soul that means soul is only a name given to you not your physical body. It is not necessary to use the name soul or inner being.
Certain parts of the brain work automatically. I use certain parts of the brain to perform my activities but not directly.
I can move many parts of my body at will. For an example I can move my hands and legs. I can’t move my heart muscle. I can’t secrete hormones. I can’t do certain functions carried out by the brain. It is said that all activities are carried out only by the brain. So why this difference between myself and brain? What is the extra reality that involves in the conscious voluntary movements of muscles?
“Many of our readers – especially among the regulars at Uncommon Descent – are substance dualists. That is, they believe that each of us has an immaterial mind or soul that constitutes our true self, and that the body, including the brain, is merely a vehicle “inhabited” and controlled by the mind or soul.”
“If this immaterial ‘true self’ is the site of our will, our beliefs, our moral responsibility, our rationality, etc., as most substance dualists believe, then why does cutting the corpus callosum cleave this ‘true self’ in two? And if it does not, then how do dualists explain the divergent knowledge, beliefs, wills, and actions of the two hemispheres?”
We do not have a soul. It is a wrong idea. We don’t carry any burden like soul. I have explained the existence of an animal cat. There is only one existence. Cat is a name. Soul is also a name. You make it separate and say that dualists believe that each of us has an immaterial mind or soul. Mind and soul are different. You mix up the both and make a problem. When we refer to mind it means our thoughts, emotions and feelings. Don’t we have thoughts, emotions and feelings? What is wrong to say we have a mind?
Is it dualism?
Knowledge, beliefs, wills experiences all are recorded in the brain. When the brain is cut into two portions one part of the brain release its contents without a conscious mind like CD player or robot. Brain talks without a being. With one leg we can’t walk properly. Similarly when the brain is cut the person find difficulties in coordinating records of memory. Dr Ramachandran makes false concepts and misleads the people. First of all he should understand the true self in his physical existence. He doesn’t know what he is. He doesn’t know how awareness arises from the material molecules. He only depends on what comes from the moth of a split brain patient. Cutting the corpus callosum never cleave the true self in two. Only the brain records are divided without coordination.
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
Welcome back! I thought we had lost you.
I’ll respond to your other points later, but first let me address this claim:
How do you know that? How can you tell, from the outside, that one of the hemispheres is unconscious?
I’ll post, perhaps prematurely, just to get this new thread on the boards.
I see no conflict between celebrating the inner life, the one inaccessible to science.
But I have spent a fair amount of my life dealing with and counselling people whose inner life is a close approximation to hell. When the body and brain are ill or injured, the contemplative life is inaccessible.
There is — admittedly in its infancy — a science and a medicine of the mind. It will eventually replace faith healing in the same way medicine and public health have replaced faith healing for the body.
Apologies to William.
When William reports that free will can reverse tooth decay, I’ll listen.
You use the free will to get yourself to a dentist, who gives you a ceramic crown that is free of decay.
Materialist.
just to repeat. there is no split brain patients. Just patients whose memory is being interfered with . They simply can’t remember things. They remember them wrong. nO reason to invoke brain juices or brain wiring. in fact there probably are ways to use drugs to get them back in normal memory triggering function.
The errors of these people are simply errors of memory and then its sticky like any phobia.
Robert,
It’s not that they “remember things wrong”, it’s that he left hemisphere can correctly remember things that the right hemisphere doesn’t know about, and vice-versa.
Two minds in one skull, all because the corpus callosum was severed.
The corpus callosum is a bundle of 200 million axons, each carrying its own information. No drug is going to compensate for severing such a massive communications cable.
At least it’s testable. Something new.
petrushka,
True. Perhaps Byers Labs has already begun a pilot study, testing drugs to find one that can magically unsplit the brain.
Aspirin? Nope. Viagra? Nope. Marijuana? Nope. Preparation H?
You seem to have found the loophole. Byers is not required to produce the magic drug. Only to claim it is possible.
In Byers’ defense, aspirin does help with splitting headaches. 🙂
Sriskandarajah,
Here’s a tip that will make your comments much easier to read. When you’re quoting someone, put the quotation inside blockquote tags, like so:
Then when you click ‘Post Comment’, the blog software will transform it into this:
The fact that it’s indented and italicized will make it easier to distinguish the quotation from your response to it.
Sriskandarajah,
Labels are just labels. I call myself an atheist because I don’t believe in God. It’s not the other way around.
I was responding to your categorical statement that
If you want to amend that to something like “most of the time, people want to go on living”, then I’ll agree.
I’m not concerned with whether you want me to meditate. I find it valuable, whether or not you approve. And it is not a different subject, as you’ll see if you read on.
If you’re talking about observing my moment-to-moment experience, then that is precisely what I do when I meditate.
If you’re speaking of conscious emotions, feelings, and thoughts, then I would agree. The problem concerns unconscious, or subconscious, emotions, feelings, thoughts, and beliefs. We are notoriously inaccurate at characterizing those.
I pointed out that in split-brain patients, the hemispheres don’t merely possess separate awareness:
You responded:
Even awareness itself is not immutable. It comes and goes, as with sleep or anesthesia. Sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s hazy. It’s no less transient than the things it observes.
Physical phenomena are the kind studied by physicists, involving matter, energy, and their interactions.
“Material soul” is just a more poetic way of referring to the mind, which is the activity carried out by the physical brain.
More later.
Keiths,
Thank you for welcoming me.
You all claim that there is no immaterial soul. Dr Ramachandran claims that there are two persons in a split brain. I do not claim any things.
We need to depend on technological science, food science, biological science and medical science. These are all external. It is very difficult to make you understand something related to internal and subjective. Further you are deeply confined to the ideas of atheism and materialism. So you always try to see things in terms of atheism and materialism. Your internal world is only for you. Nobody can enter there. The Neurologists can study your external brain. They can’t see what is really going on internally. For an example they can explain all chemical and neurological process going on in your brain during the time you eat some sweet chocolates. But the sensation of taste is only for you. Many neurons are involved in a process to give you the taste sensation. You only enjoy the taste of sweetness. One side, there is brain with billions of neurons which is engaged in a process. Other side you enjoy the taste sensation. When I say this, please don’t think there is an entity inhabiting your physical body. That is the mistake you all do and say there is no immaterial soul. I am not talking about an immaterial soul here. I am talking about you. That is why I am asking the question what you are. At the time you enjoy taste sensation you are not aware of what is happening in your brain. Neuro scientists can study your brain and may write books on what is happening in your brain. They are unable to connect the external with the internal.
Dr Ramachandran is only aware of the external part and makes concepts and conclusion about the internal part which he is not aware of. It is really absurd.
Do you understand my question what you are? If you don’t understand my question then there is no point of answering your question. If you ask this question deeply into yourself inwardly after free yourself from all kind of beliefs then you will understand the fallacious split brain concepts.
Neurologists say that there are two minds in a split brain. They say that there are two selves in a split brain. They say that there are two persons in a split brain. Before making those concepts they should understand what is mind, what is self, what is person and what consciousness is. They should understand what it means by mind, self, person and consciousness. To understand those things first we should understand what I am. Without knowing myself, I cannot understand those things. Dr Ramachandran identifies the beliefs as persons. Many neurologists like Dr Ramachandran mislead the people. They mix up all these terms which have different meanings and make all wrong statements. They don’t know how a sense of experience arises through the brain. They are unable to heal even a slight damage in the brain. But they make concepts about what is happening internally which they are not aware of.
There are many activities going on unconsciously. A car is moving unconsciously. An aero plane is flying unconsciously. There is lightning and thundering without awareness. When the tail of a lizard is cut, the separated tail of a lizard makes movements. A severed lizard’s tail that keeps on twitching. Do you say that the tail makes movements consciously? We see in our self many unconscious functions. If you understand those unconscious functions in your existence you will see what Dr Ramachandran saying is false.
You ask this question.
Do you accept what Dr Ramachandran says about two persons in a split brain? You ask me “How you do know that? How can you tell, from the outside, that one of the hemispheres is unconscious?”
Good question. I have already explained the falseness of the brain concept very clearly. It is not necessary for any further explanation. However, if you accept what Dr Ramachandran says, please explain the following questions.
How does Dr Ramachandran know that? How can he tell from the outside that both split hemispheres are conscious?
Your explanation answers to your question.
If he determines the internal awareness of each hemispheres from what comes from the mouth of the split brain person then really that is false. Our memory is very powerful. It may release the contents unconsciously. Our brain can do many functions unconsciously. To know that you should be aware of yourself inwardly and you should understand the question what you are.
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
I’ve been answering a lot of your questions. Now I’d like you to answer one of mine. Let me repeat an important question I asked you earlier.
You wrote:
I asked:
You seem reluctant to answer the question, since you’ve tried to turn it back on me:
Ramachandran can tell that both hemispheres are conscious in the same way that you can tell that I am conscious: by observing my behavior. You don’t know with 100 percent certainty that I am conscious, but you can observe my behavior and compare it to that of someone you know to be concious: yourself. I answer questions, communicate ideas, and express beliefs, emotions, and desires — just like you do. You assume that I am conscious because you know that you are conscious, and my behavior matches yours in these important respects.
In a split-brain patient, both hemispheres also answer questions, communicate ideas, and express beliefs, emotions, and desires. If you believe that I am conscious, why do you doubt that both hemispheres are conscious in a split-brain patient?
Please answer the question this time, and please be specific.
Keiths,
It is a long subject. I have to write many things on this subject. Time is also a problem.
Unfortunately I came across to your post about split brain and soul. Although it has relevance to my subject, my search is not that. And also it is not my intention to argue against atheism and materialism. Really I have been searching answers to many questions about our existence, may be scientifically and not about after life but about what exists now. I have asked only 3 questions which you didn’t answer.
You request me to answer to your question. I will come to your question later. Please wait. Before that I want to comment on mediation.
You made the following two comments.
“I am not concerned with whether you want me to meditate. I find it valuable, whether or not you approve. And it is not a different subject, as you’ll see if you read on.”
“If you’re talking about observing my moment-to-moment experience, then that is precisely what I do when I meditate.”
Please don’t misunderstand me. I didn’t want to talk about meditation here because I thought it may create further questions and explanations. That is why I said it is a different subject. And also it is not my intention here to touch that subject.
Our mind is always wandering and chattering it self by producing thoughts and images. It moves from the past to the future. Past is our memory which contains the records of finished events, experiences and gathered information. The movement of mind to the future is always from the past. Unless our mind becomes silent or still we cannot understand things very clearly. Meditation is to sit in a place silently and to aware of what is going on in our mind moment to moment without controlling or suppressing any movement of thoughts. Just to observe in the present. Then the mind becomes very peace silent with extreme alertness. All the stress and tensions vanish. The movement of mind becomes slow and slow. I am glad to hear what you do when meditating. That is good.
I want to just ask two questions before continuing our previous discussion.
(1)You believe that there is no existence of God. What do you mean by God or what is God? According to you what really exist?
(2)Why do you want to know whether an immaterial soul really exists? What will happen to me if you find that there is no soul? Am I become non existence? Do you say that since there is no soul you can’t take a physical birth again? If so, why do we need a soul to take a birth again?
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
I’m happy to answer your questions, but first I would like an answer to mine, since it gets at the heart of the issue under dispute.
I have claimed that both hemispheres are conscious in a split-brain patient, and I have supplied a supporting argument.
You disagree, claiming that one of the hemispheres is unconscious:
My question:
Sriskandarajah,
Here is a tip for making your comments easier to read.
Its doesn’t need to be seen the right doesn’t know something but rather the right doesn’t get to remember it. learning is just memorizing.
Its not two minds in one skull but simply shows two segregated memory sections.
By a problem created or revealed.
In fact I don’t think we have minds as such.
I think the mind is just a priority group of memories that we use as a tool.
Our soul just uses our mind/memory priority system for thinking operations.
There is no need to be impressed with split memories in a single persons brain.
its not two minds but simply memories not cooperating.
Its interference with the triggering mechanism for memory and not the memory ability itself.
this is why retarded people and especially savants show this in extremes. they have superior abilities to memorize certain things and inferior ability in most things. yet its not the memory but the triggering mechanism.
This can be mimicked by drugs and booze. so Yes i reason drugs can fix all mental problems. i’m very sure. A kinder gentler LSD.
Robert,
If the soul “talks” to both hemispheres, why can’t it retrieve the memory from the left hemisphere and pass it on to the right?
All mental problems? Including sexism? Take a toke, Robert, and let me buy you a beer or six.
keiths,
Sexism isn’t a mental problem. its a term to discredit opinions about sexual identity having a influence over a human being and this maybe making a sex inferior in attributes. Few people dislike people because of their sex. Possibly feminists do but they are on the fringe. Sexism is aimed at men and not women as a accusation of character and motives hurting women. Its a fraud of the left wing.
The soul doesn’t talk to the memory. It can’t control the memory. We must control it using its mechanism. thats why we sing the alphabet to memorize it. The singing triggers more juice for what it is trying to be memorized. it doesn’t make memorizing it worse by adding more info.
The memory is probably the major operation of the thing called the brain.
It controls most of the operations of the body I think.
There is no reason to see split conscience people as anything other then a segregated memory operation. It just shows who we are is who we remember ourselves to be. Our soul gets confused by its connection to the memory.
Thats the equation.
Robert,
Who is this “we” that you think is controlling the memory, if not the soul?
This is like that Simpsons episode where Homer was wearing the “No Fat Chicks” t-shirt.
Keiths,
You want me to answer your question first. I asked you many questions. But you have not answered my important questions.
You cannot understand my explanation to your question unless you understand the meaning of the terms mind, awareness, consciousness, self, person and soul.
You will never understand about what may be in a split brain person unless you understand at least the significant of the question what you are and what is going on internally.
Neurologists say that there are two persons in a split brain. Really they don’t know what it means by the term person. And also say two minds in a split brain and two selves in a split brain and two consciousnesses in a split brain. These terms have different meaning but they use all these terms together to explain a certain phenomena. It shows that they do not know the meaning of these terms. You accepted what they say without knowing what the person means and started to disprove the existence of soul.
See the common usage of the term “person” in our life.
He is a white person. He is a black person. He is a tall person. He is an old person. He is a young person. He is a handsome person. Here physical appearance is identified as person.
He is a good person. He is a bad person. Here behaviors act as person.
He is a theist. He is an atheist. He is a Materialist. He is a spiritualist. Here beliefs represent a person.
He is a rich person. He is a poor person. Here financial status is identified as person.
He is active. He is lazy. He is a sick person. Here physical condition is identified as person.
He is sad. He is angry. He is happy. Here emotion is identified as person.
We all generally use this term “person” under the above situations for the purpose of identification and communication. All the persons referred to above are fictitious. No real existence at all. The features such as rich and poor, good and bad are not real. These things change. An old person may become a young perhaps geneticists find a remedy. There is an existence. I don’ deny that. But what we see as a person is not an existence. So, is there a real person? Yes! Neuroscientists are not aware of the real person. What they say about two persons in a split brain are fictitious persons. Not a real person. Indian sages, very long ago used the name “atman” to denote the real person. Soul is also a term denotes the real person or real self. But it is an English term being used with different interpretations. So, I don’t want to use this term. So When a Neurologist says that there are two persons in a split brain what they referred to are fictitious persons. Because they don’t talk anything about a real person or real self. In a split brain person they identify the behaviors as a person. So that person is illusion. Scientists still not clear as to what is consciousness. Awareness is a kind of function. Consciousness is the ability to feel all kind of sensations and the ability to be aware of all sensations. So awareness which arises without our knowledge means a kind of function. Consciousness means ability. So Consciousness and awareness are not existence. What is self? Self also have the similar meaning to the term person. So there is a real self which is the inner being. What is the meaning of soul? Since we are not generally using the terms real self or real person the term soul is used to indicate the existence of inner being. But this term creates problem due to mis understanding. What is mind? One is you. Other is your contents which are your freewill, beliefs, ideas, behaviors, thoughts, mental images, moods, emotions, feelings, memory and impressions of thoughts, deeds and experiences. Please see difference between you and your contents. That is why I ask the question “What am I”. The contents are your mind. Mind is a center where our free will, beliefs, ideas, behaviors, thoughts, mental images, moods, emotions, feelings, memory and impressions arise and interact. It is also not an existence alone.
We can say that we have a mind. But we can’t say that we have a soul. Because we are the soul. Neuro scientists identify the contents as a person. That is the mistake. You don’t understand this mistake.
I said,
When the brain is cut into two portions one part of the brain release its contents without a conscious mind like CD player or robot. Brain talks without a being.
You asked,
How do you know that? How can you tell, from the outside, that one of the hemispheres is unconscious?
I didn’t tell from the outside like Dr Ramachandran. I have been searching my reality inwardly to find out what I am. Really I don’t know what I am. Still searching. But by inward observation together with a certain scientific knowledge I have found very clearly what I am not. Without a brain I can’t have the bodily and worldly experiences. I use the brain. But I am not the brain. I am not a fictitious person. Brain may be cut into two parts or many parts. But I, the inner being cannot be cut into two or many. And also another real person cannot manifest in the other portion of the split brain. So I say that there cannot be two or many real persons in a split brain. But there may be two fictitious persons. Not only in a split brain but also in a normal brain there is manifestation of different fictitious persons due to change of many features which I have already explained. A man under liquor talks differently. Are there two or many real persons in him since he acts with different emotions? You determine the number of persons in a split brain by what is expressed through the same mouth. You can’t come to any decision from what is released through a split brain if you think scientifically unless you see the split brain person inwardly. But no one including Dr Ramachandran can enter the inner world of a split brain person. When you eat food your brain involves in a process and as a result you receive the sense of taste. It is particularly for you only. No one can enter there. Dr Ramachandran can find what is going on in your external brain when you enjoy the taste of food. You are aware of the taste sensation. You are not directly aware of what is going on in your brain when you eat. The brain works to give you taste sensation. You only enjoy the taste sensation. See the different between you and your brain. You are not the brain but you identify yourself with what is released by your brain.
There are two possibilities.
First one I have already explained.
(1)In a split brain nobody knows really what is happening inwardly. The inner being which uses one part of the brain may be aware of what he believes and what he talks. Other part of the brain without an inner being may talk unconsciously like a robot which has no sense of awareness. First of all we should understand the real nature of our own existence. What am I? If I can find the answer to this question then we will know what really exist in a split brain. There are many instances where brain acts unconsciously. I don’t want to describe them here.
(2)One and the same real person receive information from the separate brain hemispheres without coordination since the natural anatomy of the brain is affected and memory is disturbed. The same person answers questions, communicate ideas and express beliefs, emotions and desires through the both divided hemispheres. So how can you come to the conclusion that there are two persons since two different beliefs are expressed? Our memory coordinates our actions. There are actions even in us without coordination. I don’t want to detail them here.
You said,
“I have claimed that both hemispheres are conscious in a split-brain patient, and I have supplied a supporting argument.
You disagree, claiming that one of the hemispheres is unconscious:”
You asked,
“In a split-brain patient, both hemispheres also answer questions, communicate ideas, and express beliefs, emotions, and desires. If you believe that I am conscious, why do you doubt that both hemispheres are conscious in a split-brain patient?”
I didn’t’ tell that one of the hemispheres is unconscious. Brain hemispheres cannot become conscious or unconscious. Hemispheres may become active and not conscious when communicated. Certain brain areas become active at the time we engage in certain activity. It doesn’t mean that relevant area is conscious. You ask why you doubt that both hemispheres are conscious in a split brain person. That is wrong. I don’t doubt that both hemispheres are conscious. Because hemispheres can’t be conscious. Only the being becomes conscious. The being indirectly uses the hemispheres where ideas and beliefs are recorded. The being becomes conscious and being becomes unconscious not the brain. The level of awareness or level of consciousness or unconsciousness may differ. Why do you forget about you and say that the hemispheres are conscious? It is you who is conscious not the brain. I know that I exist. I know that I am conscious. I know that I am the only one being in this physical structure. Please don’t ask me how I know that. I use the different areas of the brain indirectly to have the worldly experiences. I can observe my inner world. In my deep observation I understand the fictitous persons and the real person. I understand the real person is the inner being which is I am . What will happen to me when my brain is split? Will I disappear and two new beings will come and occupy my body? Or I exist in one side and another being suddenly appear and occupy my other part of the brain. I don’t know what he or you want to say. These are all his imaginations. According to him there is nothing except brain, and when the brain is split two persons come into being. Does Dr Ramachandran know how it happens?
I am not seeing inwardly with the image of atheism or theism or soul concept. So I am able to see that I am the real person. In me there is only one being. I say that only one and the same person exists in my physical existence which is I am. Not inhabiting the body. Not as a separate existence although I am not the physical body or sense of experiences. I am sure and I have no doubt about it. So I believe that only one being exists in each physical body. It is not true but I say for an example that I was a theist. Now I become an atheist. Am I dead now? The belief as theism is dead. Not the real person which is I am. I was bad. Now I became good. Am I dead now? The bad behavior is dead. Not the real person. When you say that there are two persons in a split brain that two persons are illusions.
You said,
“Ramachandran can tell that both hemispheres are conscious in the same way that you can tell that I am conscious: by observing my behavior. You don’t know with 100 percent certainty that I am conscious, but you can observe my behavior and compare it to that of someone you know to be concious: yourself. I answer questions, communicate ideas, and express beliefs, emotions, and desires — just like you do. You assume that I am conscious because you know that you are conscious, and my behavior matches yours in these important respects.”
By observing the behaviors we can’t come to conclusion that the person is conscious or not. What happened to science? Isn’t it ignorant? A robot can behave like me. Ok. According to him two hemispheres are conscious. So, do you say that there are two persons? What a hell? I sit closing my eyes. I don’t talk. I don’t show any behaviors. I don’t express beliefs and emotions. So do you say that I am unconscious? How do you find out that I am conscious? What you say is not an evidence to find whether a person is conscious or not although a conscious person does such things. You all started to disprove God and the inner being without knowing many things. That is the fun. Sorry to tell that.
In a split brain person both hemispheres do not answer questions, communicate ideas and express beliefs, emotions and desires as I do. Those things are released from both hemispheres. Dr Ramachandran comes to the conclusion that there are two persons in a split brain because two different beliefs are released from the brain. Belief is identified as a person. I have already explained such person is fictitious. So according to him there are not two but should be many fictitious persons in a split brain. Not only in a split person but normal brain also have many fictitious persons. I have seen many have two contradictory beliefs. They believe in God for some reasons and do not believe in God for other reasons. They are atheist and at the same time theist. Since their brain is not split they have coordination. In a split brain person the coordination is disconnected.
If you accept the existence of a real person then you should find out what it is and how it is connected to the brain.
If you say that there is no such existence as real person and there is only the existence of brain even though no problem. Because I exist and continue to exist. No need to worry about how many illusory selves or real selves exist in a split brain. If you cut the brain into thousand pieces there come thousand persons according to Dr Ramachandran. No problem. How each piece creates a person is the problem. Let Dr Ramachandran solve it? Do you know our common problem? It doesn’t matter whether I am brain or illusion or real person or even nothing? But we all have a common problem. What is it?
I took much time and effort to explain this matter. I am very clear that what Dr Ramachandran saying is not scientific and realistic.
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
This is the core issue:
You and I are separate because we have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
The split-brain evidence shows that the two hemispheres also have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
If those differences qualify us as separate, why don’t they qualify the two hemispheres of a split-brain patient as separate?
You wrote:
Not when the left hemisphere is controlling speech, and the right hemisphere is mute. Instead you look at what the arms and hands are doing, because the left arm is controlled by the right hemisphere and vice-versa.
When you do that, you see that you are dealing with two separate minds.
No, he comes to that conclusion because the left hemisphere consistently expresses different beliefs, desires, memories, and emotions from the right hemisphere, just as you consistently express different beliefs, desires, memories, and emotions from me. Why do you accept that our minds are separate if you deny the separation of the hemispheres in a split-brain patient?
No, because if that were true then both hemispheres would answer questions the same way, communicate the same ideas, beliefs, and memories, and express the same desires.
They don’t. Their answers conflict with each other, because each hemisphere has its own ideas, beliefs, memories, and desires. Just like you and I.
Don’t be silly. Ramachandran doesn’t say that, and neither do I. Cutting the corpus callosum is a very specific operation.
Yes the soul interacts with the memory and is entirely meshed to the memory. We have no senses of the world except what comes from our senses to our memory and then we read the memory. This is why magicians can fool our sight etc.
The memory is like a machine. we don’t control it like a machine however. We just watch it. We can fiddle with it like my alphabet song example.
We can provoke more “juice” by tricks. Speed reading is another example.
Robert:
keiths:
Robert:
If the soul interacts with both hemispheres, why can’t it retrieve a memory from the left hemisphere and pass it on to the right?
Keiths,
Please read carefully one by one and answer the entire questions.
First we will talk about our own existence, a physical body with one undivided brain.
What do you mean by the term person or mind? What is it really?
Is it a real existence?
How the brain does make a mind or person?
Why does the brain make a person?
Which part of the brain is responsible for the presence of a person?
How many persons do present in a non split brain?
How many persons do exist in you?
If your answer is one please explain why there is one person?
If your answer is two or many please explain why there are two or many persons?
Are you and the person in your physical existence same or different?
How many persons do present in a split brain?
You wrote,
“You and I are separate because we have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
The split-brain evidence shows that the two hemispheres also have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
If those differences qualify us as separate, why don’t they qualify the two hemispheres of a split-brain patient as separate?”
Who denied that? Hemisphere is cut into two and separated. Two hemispheres of a split brain person are separate. I don’t deny that. Beliefs, desires, memories, wills and emotions are also separated. That separation does not create separate persons like you and I.
You are always talking about hemispheres with different beliefs and different wills. Why?
What will happen if the two hemispheres have same beliefs and same wills?
Don’t you aware of a non split brain which has different ideas?
One person may believe in God and at the same time he may not believe in God. There may be two different beliefs in a same brain.
You wrote:
“Not when the left hemisphere is controlling speech and the right hemisphere is mute. Instead you look at what the arms and hands are doing, because the left arm is controlled by the right hemisphere and vice-versa.
When you do that, you see that you are dealing with two separate minds.”
What do you mean by mind? There is no such thing as mind alone. Mind is a structure consists of ideas, beliefs, experiences, thoughts, free will and memory. It is our thoughts which make the movements. There are two separate thoughts which involve in movements of hands.
Don’t you see that we have different thoughts at a time? If I am a smoker (I am not a smoker) one thought may say “It is not good for heath. Don’t smoke.). Another thought may say “Smoke today only. No problem”
What do you mean by you when you say “you see that that you are dealing with two separate minds?”
Here it is proved that when you say that you are dealing with two separate minds there is only one person.
You wrote,
“No, he comes to that conclusion because the left hemisphere consistentlyexpresses different beliefs, desires, memories, and emotions from the right hemisphere, just as you consistently express different beliefs, desires, memories, and emotions from me. Why do you accept that our minds are separate if you deny the separation of the hemispheres in a split-brain patient?”
I didn’t deny the physical separation of the hemispheres in a split brain. What is mind? What is person? Mind and person are different phenomena. There is no such thing as mind separately. Mind is a structure which I have already explained. Real person or inner being is in itself nothing. So there may be two or many minds in a split brain person. But there is only one being or person. I deny the the presence of two persons. Please read carefully what I said.
Do you treat each hemisphere as a person?
I said,
“The same person answers questions, communicate ideas and express beliefs, emotions and desires through the both divided hemispheres.”
You replied,
“No, because if that were true then both hemispheres would answer questions the same way, communicate the same ideas, beliefs, and memories, and express the same desires.
They don’t. Their answers conflict with each other, because each hemisphere has its own ideas, beliefs, memories, and desires. Just like you and I.”
Again you say that both hemispheres answer question. The records in each hemisphere are released. The same person acts in different ways by using each hemisphere which contains different ideas and different beliefs. Some time, a same person having one brain may also act in different ways at a time.
I said,
“If you cut the brain into thousand pieces there come thousand persons according to Dr Ramachandran.”
You replied,
“Don’t be silly. Ramachandran doesn’t say that, and neither do I. Cutting the corpus callosum is a very specific operation.”
I didn’t say that neither you nor Dr Ramachandran said so. That is according to his concept or conclusion. You didn’t understand the significant of this question or the logic in the question. That is why you say “Don’t be silly”. By cutting the corpus callosum the hemisphere is separated into two portions.
According to him each hemisphere creates separate persons. Is that your argument also? There are billions of neurons in the hemispheres. If you cut the brain make more and more why can’t each portion create more and more separate persons according to his concept? You explain me why that can’t happen. It doesn’t matter whether I am silly or not.
Which part of the brain is responsible to create a person? Before cutting the brain how many persons existed? Why after cutting the brain two people came in to being? What will happen to the original person who existed in the brain before cutting the brain?
Will a new person appear in one hemisphere of the split brain person?
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
You are avoiding my question.
You and I are separate because we have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
The split-brain evidence shows that the two hemispheres also have different beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions.
If those differences qualify us as separate, why don’t they qualify the two hemispheres of a split-brain patient as separate?
You wrote:
By the same logic, you and I might be the same soul, just expressing different beliefs through two different bodies. Yet clearly you agree with me that we are separate.
Why, if you acknowledge that we are separate minds, do you deny that the hemispheres in a split-brain patient are also separate minds? Please be specific.
The soul is just there. It doesn’t do anything. Its meshed to the memory only.
Breakdown in the memory is a material thing.
The soul has no control over the memory.
It can’t move memories around.
The memory is a material thing and anyways I don’t agree there is evidence for these hemispheres.
All that goes on is interference with the triggering mechanisms.
The storage of memory is not the big deal. Your divisions are just showing a minor point about connections. The memory is probably just the whole brain.
Segregated parts is really just segregated conduits from a triggering mechanism.
I’m speculating but my point is there is no evidence to divide the memory up. Its all about retrieval operations.
Split folks just shows how it works. The memories are not co-operating. The triggering is not joining things together.
Not much different then from our dreaming or just waking from a dream.
Robert:
That’s a keeper.
Try to get your story straight, Robert. Earlier you wrote:
Again, who is this “we” controlling the memory? You say it’s not the soul, so who, or what, is it?
Then you wrote:
Which is it? Is it this?
Or this?
Does the soul read the memory, or does it do nothing?
keiths,
I think I understand you.
We do have a influence over triggering our memory. We do.
Yet we don’t control it like our arm.
its a dance. Our thoughts do react with the memory and the memory reacts with our thoughts.
Thats my point. We are so meshed or so intimate with our memory machine that its as if its one thing. this is why the error was made that we think with our mind or we don’t have a entity/soul separate from our mind/memory.
The memory machine is of the material world.
Its a working organ as such. the special thing is our soul is meshed to it.
We read our memory at all times. Even when dreaming.
We don’t control it but probably can shoot gas into it. like a car. We can increase the gas by the pedal but we don’t actually do the engine work. WE are limited and easily the engine goes wrong in some spectrum.
Split folks are simply revelations of the equation. tHey show the power of the memory and how its triggering mechanisms can go faulty. its even predictable.
Robert,
Do you think we lose all our memories when we die?
NO not at all.
In fact the point is that when we die we leave our brain behind. So it could only be that our soul has no need of the brain to be a full being.
Yet the memory is a organ and is not our soul. Its mechanical and its failure is the origin of all mental problems. Our soul can’t fail in thinking abilities. Only the triggering mechanism for the memory.
SO how does our soul take memories with us.
Not sure if it takes memories but i presume it must.
So the soul upon separating must be so profoundly freed that its no longer meshed to the memory and takes with it memories that it did take to heart. The soul can remember therefore but while meshed to the material organ its not doing its true job.
its life support systems. We are on memory support while alive.
When free we take memories with us however while in our bodies we are imprisoned by memory .
I think jesus is the example.
he didn’t have memory on earth of being God. He didn’t have the ability as a baby, child, or adult to know everything god would know.
In fact the bible says he grew in wisdom as a kid. A god doesn’t.
therefore he had no memory of Gods memory.
our souls will be bigger then the control with live in now in our brain.
Keiths,
Robert,
If rebirth exists, definitely we have to lose our memory when we die. We have desires. We may die without fulfilling our desires. We are attached to so many things in our life. We are attached to our family, our parents, our children, our research and also attach to many material things. Here I don’t talk about exceptions. Our desires and attachments are in a form which cannot be destroyed. What will happen to our desires when we die? Scientists are not aware of these things. Hinduism and Buddhism many thousand years ago talked about the purpose of life and rebirth. I don’t know about other religions.
If we start a new life by taking a new physical body definitely the old memories would become a disturbance to the new life. So we need to lose our memory when we die to allow the brain to accommodate fresh memories. It is a cleaning process like we clean our house. We dispose all the old records and old things in our house. Everything we need new to start a fresh life. Even in this present life we lose some memories. They are not destroyed but kept in an inactive state. All memories are not in active state always because that may cause disturbance to the present. Memory cannot be destroyed. It may exist in a form. But we can’t have the access easily to remember them.
Even when we die and lose our memories it may exist in a form and affect our new life indirectly. According to materialism nothing gets destroyed. Only the form changes. We exist now. If we definitely exist now we cannot be destroyed. You or inner being or real self or atman or soul in itself nothing. That is why it is able to take any form. Here “you” means not the atheist or theist. There is no after life without a physical body. So when body dies, a new life begins with a new body. You may ask how do you know that. Know yourself, find out what you are. That is the way to know whether rebirth exists or not.
According to materialism we can’t destroy any things. The forms only changes. If we exist now we cannot be destroyed even by death. The form of existence goes through changes and different sate of existence.
Keiths asked:
“If the soul interacts with both hemispheres, why can’t it retrieve a memory from the left hemisphere and pass it on to the right?”
My answer:
The soul (you) indirectly contacts the records of memory in the brain only by thinking and remembering. The soul has no direct contact with the brain like a Neuro surgeon performs an operation on the brain. The brain maintains the records of memory. The soul can’t maintain the material records of memory in the brain. Whenever the soul needs to remember a thing the brain gives the required information from the material records by a process. The soul can’t do the process. The soul is not even aware of the process. All thoughts, actions and experiences of soul are recorded in the memory by the brain by a process. The soul can’t do the recording process.
Robert gave a good explanation about memory.
Robert wrote:
“The soul is just there. It doesn’t do anything.”
I think that he understands the subject but the way of answering as above is wrong. But subsequently he rectified the above by his following explanation.
“We do have an influence over triggering our memory. We do.
Yet we don’t control it like our arm.”
A.Sriskandarajah
Keiths,
Your questions:
“If those differences qualify us as separate, why don’t they qualify the two hemispheres of a split-brain patient as separate?”
“Why, if you acknowledge that we are separate minds, do you deny that the hemispheres in a split-brain patient are also separate minds? Please be specific.”
You are asking wrong question and say that I am avoiding your question. First you asked “Why don’t they qualify the two hemispheres in a split brain patient as separate.
My answer:
“Who denied that? Hemisphere is cut into two and separated. Two hemispheres of a split brain person are separate. I don’t deny that. Beliefs, desires, memories, wills and emotions are also separated. That separation does not create separate persons like you and I.”
I agreed the physical separation of the hemispheres. The records which consist of beliefs, desires etc are also divided.
In the second question you say that I acknowledge that we are separate minds.
I didn’t acknowledge that we are separate minds. In this connection I wish to remind you the following para which I written earlier.
“We can say that we have a mind. But we can’t say that we have a soul. Because we are the soul. Neuro scientists identify the contents as a person. That is the mistake. You don’t understand this mistake.”
We are not minds. The contents of the mind are always changing. I can say that I have a mind. But I can’t say that I am mind. I can say that I am soul. Soul always remains one and the same. In itself it contains nothing. Soul and mind are different aspects. I don’t know what you mean by mind. There are no two inner beings or real persons in a split brain person. This is my answer.
You are talking about mind. I am talking about you. You are the real person. You are the inner being. When I say “you” it is not the atheist. There is no such thing as mind or consciousness. Mind is a structure consists of thoughts, freewill, ideas, beliefs, emotions, feelings and memory. Mind is a centre where all these things interact. In this structure, nothing exists permanent. Consciousness is a state of function. In the state of consciousness nothing exists stable. I clearly say that there are no two separate real persons or real self exist exists in a split brain person like the separation exists between you and I.
Why do the Neurologists cut the brain instead of healing the illness? They don’t know how to heal. But they come with all the concepts without knowing what really exists inside. If one of our legs is cut we can’t walk properly. The person cannot perform a normal function since the brain is disturbed by splitting. They make concepts on an abnormal brain function.
A car is designed for the occupation of one driver. Likewise our physical body is evolved for millions of years for the function of one person or one self. There is no provision for two minds or two persons.
You arrived at the conclusion that there is no such thing as soul by submitting split brain evidence. So you have the responsibility to answer the questions raised by others. In the first instance I asked you to answer the question “What are you?” This is my important basic question. When I asked that question you replied as follows.
“The question of identity is a complicated one, but we don’t need to solve it here. The question at hand is whether an immaterial soul exists. If we are clear about what we mean y “an immaterial soul”, then we can attempt to answer the question.”
To you, if the question of identity is complicated one, how can you come to any conclusion about our existence? So it is understood that you are not clear in yourself. I say that there is no such thing as immaterial soul other than you. Are you clear now? So, can you please attempt to answer my question? I explained many things with questions. You only say that there are separate minds like you and me. You didn’t explain any important thing and answered any important question.
While I was asking many questions I made a comment which gave you a chance to turn the question on me. You firmly stuck to that question.
My comments and your question.
“When the brain is cut into two portions one part of the brain release its contents without a conscious mind like CD player or robot. Brain talks without a being.”
“How do you know that? How can you tell, from the outside, that one of the hemispheres is unconscious?”
You asked me how you know that. In me I see it very clearly that there is only one person. There can’t be two persons in a split brain person.
Your problem is about the existence of soul. Without understanding what you are, you cannot solve the problem of soul. You want to check whether you have a soul. That is the mistake. Really you don’t have a soul. You think whether you have a soul. That is why you deny its existence. That is correct. Because nobody carries a soul. You are the soul. It is a name. Again I say you need not to call you as soul. But find out what you are. We all carry a mind. But we are not mind.
A.Sriskandarajah
keiths:
Sriskandarajah:
You are still avoiding the key question. Why don’t the hemispheres qualify as separate persons? You and I, who have separate beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions, are separate persons. The two hemispheres of a split-brain patient also have separate beliefs, desires, memories, wills, and emotions, yet you deny that they are separate persons. Why? What do you and I have that the hemispheres of a split-brain patient don’t have, that qualifies us as separate persons? Please be specific.
The only attempt I’ve seen you make to answer this question is the following:
You could easily design (or modify) a car to have two drivers. It would lead to some interesting behavior if the drivers disagreed on what to do. One driver might try to exit the freeway while the other was determined to stay on it. It would be a lot like what you see with split-brain patients, where one hand may button up a shirt while the other unbuttons it, or one arm may attack another person while the other arm defends that person. Just like you’d expect if there were two persons in a single body.
It doesn’t always work out that way. Meet the Hensel twins. Are you going to tell me that they aren’t separate persons?
No, the split-brain evidence is just a small part of it. Even without the split-brain evidence, it would be clear that the immaterial soul does not exist.
Drawing precise boundaries around the “self” is complicated. Deciding whether we exist is not very complicated. I think it’s pretty obvious that we exist, and it’s also pretty obvious that we don’t possess immaterial souls.
How would you know that? Your brain isn’t split. And even if it were, why would you expect to be able to look inwardly and see two persons? Each hemisphere would only be able to look within itself, so it would only see one person. It takes observation, not introspection, to show that split-brain patients are really two persons in a single skull.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_apparatus#Tiller_ladder_.28Hook-and-ladder.29
“A tiller ladder, also known as a tractor-drawn aerial, aerial ladder truck or hook-and-ladder truck, is a specialised turntable ladder mounted on a semi-trailer truck. It has two drivers, with separate steering wheels for front and rear wheels. …”
Keiths,
Richardthughes,
Sorry. That is my mistake.
I already knew that perhaps some people who don’t understand the important things will pick this example which is unimportant and they will make a big issue. Both did that. I mean the car and indicated the car just for an example. But that is not the subject. Please don’t trouble yourself to make an example a big issue and come with your explanations. Examples are not a proof. I agree that there are vehicles with two drivers. However, I don’t think by cutting any parts of the car we can make it to allow two drivers. Both have good understanding about vehicles which I don’t have.
Keiths,
But I don’t agree that there are two persons in a split brain person. I understood that you have no understanding about the meaning of the term person and the question what you are, although I explained many things relevant to this subject. At least you should have understood the significant of the question what you are. But you didn’t. Unless you are aware of your self you cannot understand the significant of the question. If you understand the depth of this question and the meaning of the term person you will see it yourself very clearly that there can’t be two persons in a split brain person. You don’t need to have a split brain to understand this. You have failed to answer my questions. You have the background of atheism and your answers always come from your background. I have no such backgrounds.
I only see my self directly.Please also remember that Dr Ramachandran do not have a split brain I think.
Thank you for responding me every time I made a comment.
Please forgive me if I hurt you. But it is not my intention to to do that. That is the way of my explanation.
I started asking questions to you. But at last you turned on me. I have 24 important questions about our existence. But I don’t want to put them to you. my important problem is something else.I don’t ask you question any more.
Wish you a happy long life.
Good bye.
A.Sriskandarajah
Sriskandarajah,
The problem with your car analogy is simple. You have assumed that if a car is designed for one driver, it will always and only have one driver. We know that’s not true, so your analogy doesn’t demonstrate what you hoped it would.
Neither does this statement:
Your statement is true, but it doesn’t show that it is impossible for two persons to inhabit the same body. Split-brain patients and the Hensel twins demonstrate that it is possible.
I know you don’t agree, but you still haven’t offered a valid reason for your disagreement. If you and I are separate persons, why aren’t the hemispheres of a split-brain patient? They have their own beliefs, desires, emotions, etc., just like we do.
If you see “very clearly” that there can’t be two persons in a split brain, then tell us why.
Exactly, which is why he relies on observation, not introspection, to reach his conclusions. And as I already explained:
Sriskandarajah:
I’m wishing you the same. But after you go, I’d like you to think about something. You came here claiming that the hemispheres of a split-brain patient are not separate persons. Yet when asked, you were unable to give a reason why those hemispheres should not be considered to be separate persons. In the end, the only reason you offered was “one body, one person”, which is obviously false.
You have learned something important here about the nature of humans, including yourself. We are physical beings. Will you embrace that new knowledge, or will you turn your back on it? Which is more important to you: the truth, or your familiar, comfortable beliefs about the soul?
I’m saying the brain never malfunctions but only the trigfgering mechanism to the memory malfunctions. No brains are involved in thinking. tHe brain just holds the memory.
I can say the souk must remember. Yet the memory is separate from the soul.
So I conclude that wHILE we are in these bodies the soul and the memory are meshed together TOO SUCH A EXTENT that we don’t have the ability to memorize with our soul without the memory organ.
Yet upon release from the brain/memory organ the true ability of the soul to remember takes with it memories.
i’m saying we are so at one with the memory that it interferes with our true thinking in our soul.
Just like jesus as my example.
It works fine.
Our soul is entrapped in its thinking by being meshed with the memory.
Yet it can remember but it doesn’t while meshed on earth.
Thats my equation.
There is no problem, even predicatable, with split people.
All that is split is the memory . or rather the triggering mechanism is affecting the memory and it is creating two people.
Yet it could only be that the two are the product of what has already been memorized. They are working off memorized data. iNcluding their language to express the split personality.
Its all in the memory. Thats all there is in the brain. i think the mind is just organized priority memories. Our soul/heart is where the thinking goes on. it uses the memory and any misfunction screws up the thinking. YET there is never any fault in the thinking itself.
Robert,
Your story doesn’t make sense. If our souls can remember things, then why did God give us brains to help us remember things that we could already remember without them? Brains consume about 20% of our energy. That’s a lot of energy to waste on something that the soul could do without any assistance.
And furthermore, the brain can malfunction, grow tumors, get Alzheimer’s, etc. Why would God saddle us with unreliable brains that burn 20% of our energy and hobble our souls? What is the purpose of doing that?
None of it makes any sense, and you also haven’t provided the slightest bit of evidence for it.
The obvious explanation: There is no soul. Whatever we remember, we remember with our brains. When we get Alzheimer’s, our brains are damaged, so we lose our memories. There is no soul to take over the job. When we die, our memories are gone.
It makes perfect sense and it fits the evidence, unlike your story.
This is nonsense for a very simple reason, as it must mean that the “thinking” is like playing a tape where the output is ignored (the broken brain).
It must mean that the thing that really does the thinking does not know that the receiver (the brain) is broken. And is it your position that there is no feedback between the brain and the “real” brain? Then what is the point at all of the brain?
There are so many illogical parts here it’s difficult to express how wrong you are. I know I’m talking to a child in a grown body but even so.
it does make sense.
i’m saying its a unique relationship. Our soul on earth is uniquely attached to the memory. Yet this changes it from its usual ability of independent total thinking.
We are trapped by our memory. It closes the independent thinking. It forces us to have to think using the memory for everything.
Why not?
the big thing is that everything in human thinking can be drawn from a soul using the memory only.
so any problem, like you list, is only a failure of the memory. or rather of the triggering mechanism for the memory. i say the memory is fantastic in its abilities for man or beast. It doesn’t break down itself. just the triggering.
you said split people was evidence for no soul.
I try to show here its no problem with a soul.
Its jUST a interference with the memory. one soul but two memories about details about oneself.
the evidence is the same as yours. Interpreting data but i add biblical boundaries which gives a advantage to figuring things out.
Actually a child is just a soul who has malfunctioning memory by a triggering mechanism slowness AND they have no original data. there are no child souls. They are all the same in thinking ability except for memory.
Thats why prodigy’s are just kids whose memories have been more activated for this or that. they don’t think better but just have a better memory for something. its always a simple memory they do.
The soul would not know the memory is failing anymore then we do if drinking or tired. Why would it?
The soul uses the memory for everything in thinking as a tool. Yet the soul still is a independent thinking thing. We are just souls. however we are attached to our memories and this organ we use as data for thinking.
Its almost as if we are one. Yet we are not. The problems are entirely memory problems as its impossible for a soul to break down in its mechanics.
In becoming one we give up separation.So we can’t think apart from the memory while in our bodies. yet its actually just our soul doing the thinking or rather choosing of things memorized.
It works.
So the Terri Schiavo case your claim is that there was a “soul” that did not know, notice or care that the brain it was sending to was essentially dead?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case
What “thinking” does the “soul” do when attached to a nearly-dead brain? Did this “soul” notice that the brain it was sending to was basically dead? If it did not notice that, then what is the point of physical brains at all, why not just stick with “souls” as it makes no difference to the “soul” what the state of the brain is.
Robert,
If the soul is capable of “independent total thinking”, then why would God cripple it by tying it to an unreliable brain that wastes 20% of our energy and is subject to Alzheimer’s, intoxication, concussions, tumors, etc.? What is the point?
Think of how many people have starved to death because they couldn’t obtain enough food to maintain both their bodies and their energy-hungry brains. If God wants to cripple our souls for some bizarre reason, couldn’t he have found a more energy-efficient way to do it?
Your position makes no sense, Robert.
Keiths:
Although I said good bye I have to come again to give my explanation. I think it is final.
I wrote earlier:
“In a split brain nobody knows really what is happening inwardly. The inner being which uses one part of the brain may be aware of what he believes and what he talks. Other part of the brain without an inner being or soul if you want to use the term may talk unconsciously like a robot which has no sense of awareness”.
You replied first:
“That is a possible explanation, but only if you believe that the soul has no function other than providing awareness. Most theists (and particularly Christians) are uncomfortable with that idea, because they want the soul to be responsible for our thoughts, words, and behaviors, not just a passive spectator.”
You replied later
“It takes observation, not introspection, to show that split-brain patients are really two persons in a single skull.”
Why did you accept that as a possible explanation first and now why do you say firmly that there are two persons in a split brain?
You say that it takes observation not introspection.
What you say is wrong.
Observation of what? Outward observation or inward observation?
Introspection means inward observation. We need to do that because the subject is something internal.
You wrote:
“Drawing precise boundaries around the “self” is complicated. Deciding whether we exist is not very complicated. I think it’s pretty obvious that we exist, and it’s also pretty obvious that we don’t possess immaterial souls.”
My answer:
You say that it’s also pretty obvious that we don’t possess immaterial soul.
That is true. But why do you say that? I think some people said this wrong information to you that we possess immaterial souls.
So do we possess material souls?
We don’t possess material souls or immaterial souls. If we possess a soul then that thing become a separate existence. There is no any kind of separate existence as soul or inner being or self. We are the soul. It is only a name. The name became a problem to the atheists. I say that there is no other existence except me and we don’t possess anything except our physical body and mind. We may leave the name soul. But we can’t leave the “me”. That is why I asked the question in the beginning what am I.
You wrote:
“The only attempt I’ve seen you make to answer this question is the following:”
A car is designed for the occupation of one driver.
It is an example. You don’t understand what I say. So I said this example. Please ignore that. Is it my only answer for the non existence of two persons in split brain? Didn’t I write any other things?
You wrote:
“I’m wishing you the same. But after you go, I’d like you to think about something. You came here claiming that the hemispheres of a split-brain patient are not separate persons. Yet when asked, you were unable to give a reason why those hemispheres should not be considered to be separate persons. In the end, the only reason you offered was “one body, one person”, which is obviously false.
You have learned something important here about the nature of humans, including yourself. We are physical beings. Will you embrace that new knowledge, or will you turn your back on it? Which is more important to you: the truth, or your familiar, comfortable beliefs about the soul?”
My answer:
I did not say one body,one person. Please don’t come with anything which I didn’t tell. This is one example for your mis understanding.
It is a wrong question. Hemispheres cannot be considered as persons. There are billions of neurons in each hemisphere. If you cut one of the hemispheres again there should be another two persons. I have already explained many such things but you say that I was unable to give a reason.
There are many reasons. I will tell you one reason. In a split brain each hemisphere cannot perform all the functions of a normal brain. So the hemispheres cannot perform the normal function. So there is a deformity in each hemisphere. Due to the deformity the hemispheres are in a disturbed state. Dr Ramachandran talks to the person who has two disturbed hemispheres. So the information released from each hemisphere cannot be always true. So not reliable. Dr Ramachandran and you come to the conclusion that there are different beliefs and different wills so there are two persons in a split brain relying on the information revealed from a disturbed brain through the same mouth. Science cannot rely on the information come from a disturbed brain. So I cannot accept what you say about a split brain. Now I have answered your question.
I didn’t come here claiming anything. I came first with my question “What you are”. First you tell me the meaning of person and what you are then I was able to explain the reasons why those hemispheres should not be considered to be separate persons. These are my first and original questions I asked you at the beginning. If you go through my previous comments you can see that. You didn’t answer my questions. So I asked how Dr Ramachandran knows that. You turn the question on me and stuck to that firmly. But that is not my important question. I am still with my basic questions. Really it is not my problem that how many persons exist in a split brain person.
I didn’t learn anything from you about my existence since you didn’t answer my important questions. There are many questions about my existence to which I need to know answers. I could not get anything from you. I learned from you that you have mis understandings and wrong information. You only say that there are two persons in a split brain without knowing the meaning of the term person. You want me to accept a wrong concept which you have found in a disturbed brain.
I regret that you didn’t understand me and what I said. I already told you that I am not a theist or atheist or dualist or any non sense. I don’t have any beliefs. I am not comfortable with any beliefs or ideas like atheism. If I am comfortable with any belief I need not to ask what I am. If I have the belief of soul or anything I would haven’t asked the question what I am. I am searching answers to my important questions. Now you ask me Which is more important to you: the truth, or your familiar, comfortable beliefs about the soul?
From this question I feel that you didn’t understand me. How can I listen to you if you come with wrong information? I clearly explained that there is no such thing as soul separate from you. I said “you exist”. So, I asked what you are. My questions are more important to me. Not only this question I have other 20 questions to which I need answers to understand my existence. Please tell me what the truth you have. Please tell me what the new knowledge you have. I read many such presentations by other atheists. It is an old story to me. I cannot find any truth in their presentations. I noted the irrelevant evidences in their presentations. If you know the truth and new knowledge why you are unable to answer my following questions? I don’t need to turn back on anything.
The important question is “What am I”. This is my first question. Without finding answer to this question it is absurd to talk about the number of persons in a split brain. Because the answer to this question reveal the mystery of our existence. Even if two persons exist in a split brain in each hemisphere there should be a sense of an existence of “I”. Each person may ask the question “What am I”. So this question is applicable to split brain also.
My important questions:
(1)What are you?
(2)What is the meaning of person or what the term person refers to?
(3)How do sense of experiences arise from the material molecules?
(4)What is the reality of matter? How matter came into existence?
(5) Certain parts of the brain work automatically. I can move many parts of my body at will. I use certain parts of the brain to perform my activities but not directly. For an example I can move my hands and legs. I can’t move my heart muscle. I can’t secrete hormones. I can’t do certain functions carried out by the brain. It is said that all activities are carried out only by the brain. So why this functional difference between myself and brain? What is the extra reality that involves in the conscious voluntary movements of muscles?
(6)Who think? Brain or you? Who remember? Brain or you? When thinking and remembering take place the brain involve in a process to record things in the memory and to release things from the memory. Why I am not aware of this brain process?
When I eat a very tasty food really which enjoys the taste sensation? I or brain?
(7)I do enjoy the taste only. But Brain involves in a process in the arising of taste sensation. I don’t involve in any process and even I am not aware of what is going on inside the brain. Can you please explain these different functions?
(8) Is there anything permanently existing in our physical existence? What is it that comes to an end when this physical body dies? Did that thing exist permanently till birth to death?
It is not my problem whether one or two persons exist in a split brain person. I want to solve a very serious problem. That is why I ask the questions what I am and what is the real identity of a person. Even though there are two persons in a split brain I need to ask my questions. The questions still arise even if two persons exist in a split brain.
My other questions in respect of your explanation:
(a)You say that there is one person in a single and there are two persons in split brain person. You use the term “person” in both cases. So I want to know what do you mean by the term “person”? Really what is it?
(b)Before splitting the brain there was one person. What will happen to that person when the brain is split into two portions? Will that person die?
©You say that the body is the whole show. So there are only material molecules and energy. Then why do you use the term person? You don’t believe the existence of an immaterial soul other than this physical body. Then why do you posit the existence of a person in a physical body? So there are two things. It is also a dualism. So you are an atheist as well as a dualist.
(d) If the body is the whole show and if the brain can do all the functions why does the brain need a person in extra?
(e)If two persons can manifest by splitting the brain definitely the brain is responsible for the manifestation of a person. So, which part of the brain is responsible for the creation of a person?
(f)How does a person appear in a brain which consists of billions of neurons?
You say that we don’t possess an immaterial soul. I say that we don’t possess persons. What is the different between these two ideas?
(g)You deny the existence of a soul and also say that we don’t possess souls. But accept the existence of persons. I say that I don’t possess either person or soul other than my physical body and mind. How can I accept the existence of person?
(h)Can the person in a single brain and the two separate persons in a split brain exist permanently till death? If yes, in what form it exist permanently? If no, why it’s existence impermanent?
You wrote
“How would you know that? Your brain isn’t split. And even if it were, why would you expect to be able to look inwardly and see two persons? Each hemisphere would only be able to look within itself, so it would only see one person. It takes observation, not introspection, to show that split-brain patients are really two persons in a single skull.”
(i)In your existence which does see that there is one person? Is that you or your hemisphere? What is the difference between you and your hemisphere? Are you and the person in your physical existence same or different?
Please answer all my questions.
If you answer the questions correctly then only I can embrace new knowledge and realize the truth revealed by you. You may answer the questions. But I need the real answers.
A.Sriskandarajah