Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

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3,430 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. Mung: Absence of face masks. Lack of social distancing.

    Somehow I bet Trump is to blame.

    I get it, torture and abuse is a funny topic for republicans. That and few hundred thousand people dying because the countries leader is a total imbecile. Funny, funny stuff!

    Is courting sociopaths one of your parties core outreach strategies?

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  2. phoodoo: Is courting sociopaths one of your parties core outreach strategies?

    I’m not a member of the Chinese Communist Party.

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  3. Perhaps phoodoo is not a member of the Chinese Communist Party. Perhaps he’s a member of the opposition party. Perhaps his posts criticising the Chinese Communist government can guide is in deciding where his loyalties really lie.

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  4. OMagain: So despite its problems, current and historical, individual freedom is far greater in the USA then in China, that’s clear.

    Let’s keep talking about it a very long time, as if this were in dispute 😀

    Here are a few other things that are not in dispute. First, the prison population in USA is disproportionate in the world scale. USA is imprisoning their own people more than any other country, both in relative and absolute numbers.

    Second, USA is the terrorizer of the world. Not in some surreptitious manner, but in a direct military sense, with airplanes, bombs, tanks, etc. invading, starting wars, and setting up military bases at will anywhere in the world. No other country comes even close.

    Let’s compare with “the axis of evil”. North Korea? Nope, never invaded or attacked anyone, just minor border skirmishes with its southern neighbor.

    Iran? Apart from propping up Hezbollah, what else are they doing to destabilize Middle East that USA is not doing at the same time? Besides, Middle East is Iran’s own region, while it is halfway across the globe from USA.

    Russia, the largest country in the world? Now, don’t get me wrong, Russia is definitely evil, but its military impact is limited to some of the former Soviet Union countries only.

    No terrorist country or “state sponsor of terrorism” comes even close to terrorizing the world the way USA does. Again, not in dispute at all.

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  5. Erik: No terrorist country or “state sponsor of terrorism” comes even close to terrorizing the world the way USA does.

    Thank God! And Trump!

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  6. Erik: Let’s keep talking about it a very long time, as if this were in dispute

    Little or any of this is in dispute. The US after WWII became far and away the world’s most powerful nation, and the downstream results were predictable, but your spin misses a lot of them. Yes, in terms of military might the US routinely does what it would not permit any other nation to do in return – prop up governments, exercise military occupation, drop bombs, and so on.

    But US dominance has had many other aspects. It has essentially established American English as the world’s language – the language of the internet, the language of science, the language of education. It has provided higher education to far more noncitizens than Americans have received elsewhere. The dollar is the world’s currency standard.

    American efforts to plunk down democracy have been generally a failure, because American democracy has to be grown domestically. I think the US for the very first time has a leader who simply cannot understand why anyone with his power would ever voluntarily lose an election or give up that power – an attitude more common than not around the world.

    I notice with interest that phoodoo somehow can’t mention that the internet in China is heavily restricted, that political opposition is heavily restricted, that speech the party doesn’t like provokes punishment.

    No, the US is no paragon of virtue, and does excessive hypocritical virtue signaling. And we are witnessing how politicians, backed into a corner, invariably put themselves first, retaining power at any cost second, and country gets any priority only when pretending patriotism is self-serving.

    But the claim that Americans are swallowing pure propaganda, while those in China are blessed with objective information and full freedom to act on it, is idiotic. Different systems have different pros and cons. It’s not coincidence that people are desperate to get INTO America, while the same is not true of China. The US system is far less than great, but we’re not looking for perfection, we’re looking for relative benefit. I think the best way to improve America is to elect better leaders and representatives. I have no idea if phoodoo even thinks China CAN be improved.

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  7. Flint,

    Good speech, but your prevalent point is the same: “We are not as bad as China, therefore we win.”

    No, you fail. While you are better in some areas, you still have a lot to work on even in comparison with China. Otherwise what’s the point of comparing yourselves with China at all? You could simply say you are unique and uncomparable 🙂

    (Yes, I know that a messianic strand of state ideology exists in USA. The same is true for China, but they are not acting out on it aggressively, at least not yet.)

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  8. Erik: No, you fail. While you are better in some areas, you still have a lot to work on even in comparison with China.

    And presumably you live in China or are emigrating soon? If not, why not?

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  9. Erik: No terrorist country or “state sponsor of terrorism” comes even close to terrorizing the world the way USA does. Again, not in dispute at all.

    And despite all that, when you measure the happiness of individual people China fares far less well than the USA. Odd that.

    And despite all that people are fleeing China if they can afford it to the USA.
    Odd that.

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  10. Erik: Good speech, but your prevalent point is the same: “We are not as bad as China, therefore we win.”

    It’s like you read what Flint wrote then replaced it with what you wanted Flint to say and then responded to that instead.

    You made up a fake quote

    Erik: “We are not as bad as China, therefore we win.”

    your words but quoted as if to indicate you really were quoting someone else. You then go onto explain why actually we fail, not win. But the only person who used the word ‘win’ was you. Flint carefully qualified the claim, but you just turned that into USA WIN USA WIN and responded to that.

    In short, you read only what you want to read and respond to that instead of what was actually said. Nobody is saying that the USA does not have problems. But where would you rather live? There or China?

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  11. OMagain,

    How do you suppose they ask Chinese people this question-they call them on the phone? Preposterous.

    I have said it here before, I interact with a lot of Chinese people on a daily basis; people who know things about America and the rest of the world. I can tell you with utmost certainty, the Chinese right now view America as an absolute joke. They are almost dumbfounded by what a mess the place has become. I know of virtually no one who wants to live there right now. It is no exaggeration to say I hear this hundreds and hundreds of times every week.

    They can not fathom how a country they indeed used to admire has become such a pathetic mess, run by such incompetent fools. They have been there, they have seen what it is like. They are amazed by how uneducated Americans are. How unhealthy. How bad the cities have become. How poor the service is. How bad the roads even are. They went there thinking they were going to see an amazing, developed country, and instead they come back saying, wow, what happened? And what is wrong with the government? It is not out of anger, it is out of sympathy. Its like “holy shit, those poor people…”

    And then they see the so called president. And they just shake their heads and say, “Its unbelievable.” They try to be polite, because they don’t want to offend me, by they are just shocked.

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  12. OMagain: Nobody is saying that the USA does not have problems. But where would you rather live? There or China?

    When will you stop proving my point? 😀

    Anyway, I forgive you. It is quite forgivable for Americans to not know the world. They think those who grew up anywhere else have not had a life worth living. And when you don’t manage to stop coming across this way, I forgive you again.

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  13. Rumraket: Bullshit.

    You once again talking with zero knowledge is no surprise at all.
    I would venture to say that there is almost no one on the planet who has more knowledge of this subject than I. Do you know my job?

    But go ahead, keep sticking your chin out and pretending you know things.

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  14. phoodoo:
    I have said it here before, I interact with a lot of Chinese people on a daily basis; people who know things about America and the rest of the world.I can tell you with utmost certainty, the Chinese right now view America as an absolute joke.They are almost dumbfounded by what a mess the place has become.I know of virtually no one who wants to live there right now.It is no exaggeration to say I hear this hundreds and hundreds of times every week.

    They can not fathom how a country they indeed used to admire has become such a pathetic mess, run by such incompetent fools.They have been there, they have seen what it is like.They are amazed by how uneducated Americans are.How unhealthy.How bad the cities have become.How poor the service is.How bad the roads even are.They went there thinking they were going to see an amazing, developed country, and instead they come back saying, wow, what happened?And what is wrong with the government?It is not out of anger, it is out of sympathy.Its like “holy shit, those poor people…”

    So are you saying that the Chinese people, in their astounding wisdom, cannot tell the difference between a nation and a particularly bad leader? Hey, MOST Americans look at what Trump is and what he is doing, and are appalled. And a good many thoughtful Americans (if we can judge by books, by polls, by interviews, by news) are deeply bothered that so many of their countrymen have been so easily and eagerly bamboozled by a perpetual, habitual liar. Most Americans recognize that, as Pogo said, “we have met the enemy and they is us.” I agree a strong case can be made that too many Americans have confused patriotism with resting on laurels that must be continuously reinforced, and have not been.

    But you are making the same mistake Erik is making, that if some of us are fools, all of us are fools. Somehow, I doubt public opinion in China is any more monolithic than in the US. In a few weeks, we’ll see if it’s possible to right the ship using procedures designed for that purpose. I don’t know what the procedures would be for replacing the Chinese leaders, or even if there are any. Maybe you could explain to us what the Chinese process is for deposing Xi if the people should decide that’s called for?

    There’s an old aphorism that, of a bad leader, the people say “we fear him”, of a good leader the people say “we respect him”, and of a great leader, the people say “we did it ourselves.” We in the US either fear or worship our leader, and neither is healthy. Yes, public education, public health, public infrastructure are overdue for vast improvement. And certainly America can look at China and see both how some things are better, and how China made them better. It’s not a competition between the US and China, it’s a competition between how things are/where they’re heading, and how things could be and how to get there.

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  15. phoodoo: You once again talking with zero knowledge is no surprise at all.
    I would venture to say that there is almost no one on the planet who has more knowledge of this subject than I.Do you know my job?

    Very Trumpian

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  16. Erik: When will you stop proving my point?

    When will you answer even a simple question?

    Erik: Anyway, I forgive you. It is quite forgivable for Americans to not know the world. They think those who grew up anywhere else have not had a life worth living. And when you don’t manage to stop coming across this way, I forgive you again.

    I’m not american, dumbass. And I don’t give a shit about your opinions.

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  17. Do you tell the people in the concentration camps near where you live phoodoo that it can’t be whipped cream all the time and that unless bad things happen to them then good things can’t happen to the approved sub-set of citizens?

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  18. phoodoo: Every country decides what its citizens can and can’t do. There is no such thing as a “free” country as you call it.

    To blazes with drug use and dog fights. I was talking about fundamental human rights. You know: stuff like “No one shall be subjected to torture”? Do you really believe such human rights depend on national or cultural context? The Chinese government does.

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  19. Corneel: You know: stuff like “No one shall be subjected to torture”?

    America believes in that value?

    What the heck are you talking about?

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  20. phoodoo: You once again talking with zero knowledge is no surprise at all.
    I would venture to say that there is almost no one on the planet who has more knowledge of this subject than I. Do you know my job?

    But go ahead, keep sticking your chin out and pretending you know things.

    Hundreds of times a week. There’s 168 hours in a week. But if you’re told at least 200 times (hundreds), that means you’re told at least 1.2 times pr hour. But you probably sleep, and do other stuff than talk to chinese people every waking our of your life, so it’s probably three times pr hour at least. So you have a job where Chinese people feel compelled to tell you at least three times pr. hour that they don’t want to live in america, every working hour, every day, every week.

    HORSESHIT.

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  21. phoodoo: I would venture to say that there is almost no one on the planet who has more knowledge of this subject than I.

    Hmmm who do you remind me of?

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  22. Rumraket,

    It happens a lot more than three times an hour. You know, you don’t know what I do, so you should probably shut the fuck up, since you are breaking the rules and all (not that I care).

    Maybe your esp is not as good as you think.

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  23. phoodoo: America believes in that value?

    The majority of the legislature believes it enough the pass a law

    “2340A) Section 2340A of Title 18, United States Code, prohibits torture committed by public officials under color of law against persons within the public official’s custody or control. Torture is defined to include acts specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering”

    If you need a law ,it stands to reason in the past and probably in the future there has been and will be torture.

    We know same sex marriage is not a concern in China, how about torture? When the press reveals instances of torture in China is there the same kind of reaction as occurred in the US when Abu Ghraib was revealed by 60 Minutes?

    What the heck are you talking about?

    What that means it is easier to do bad stuff when there is nobody watching.

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  24. Corneel: You know: stuff like “No one shall be subjected to torture”? Do you really believe such human rights depend on national or cultural context? The Chinese government does.

    It is never that easy .The problem is defining what constitutes torture , that is the get out of jail free card.

    “The January 9, 2002 Torture Memo as described.
    A set of legal memoranda known as the “Torture Memos” were drafted by John Yoo as Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the United States and signed in August 2002 by Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee, head of the Office of Legal Counsel of the United States Department of Justice. They advised the Central Intelligence Agency, the United States Department of Defense, and the President on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques: mental and physical torment and coercion such as prolonged sleep deprivation, binding in stress positions, and waterboarding, and stated that such acts, widely regarded as torture, might be legally permissible under an expansive interpretation of presidential authority during the “War on Terror”.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos

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  25. newton,

    Cornell doesn’t think same sex marriage is important to people, so you see, not everyone wants the same thing for their citizens.

    The US has no moral high ground on almost every so called human rights issues one can think of. They are the world terrorists.

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  26. phoodoo: But you think democracies should decide everything. So what if the majority thinks they should not have that right?

    That is why the white male founders of the US added the First Ten Amendments to the structure of the government. To avoid the tyranny of the majority. They had experience being in the minority. Of course ,they were fairly well off , white guys. So these rights only applied to landholding, white guys. But they left a path modify who is covered.

    Those Rights are bestowed by virtue of being born in the US, not given to you by the government.

    So in the US that is what happens ,in theory. There always is a tension.

    Isn’t that how you want a country to be run? Let democracy run free?

    Well ,in the case of the US it takes a super majority to change the Founding document. So not run free.

    .

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  27. phoodoo:
    newton,

    Cornell doesn’t think same sex marriage is important to people, so you see, not everyone wants the same thing for their citizens.

    Weird it seemed to me he put the whole concept of marriage below the importance of not being involuntarily tortured. I agree, if you are dead, you can’t marry anyone,anyway. It remains important, as does a free press, freedom of speech women able to vote, outlawing of slavery.

    About the same as the freedom not to be run over by a tank.

    And it is possible the new Supreme Court will reverse the ruling, sometimes five votes is enough.

    The US has no moral high ground on almost every so called human rights issues one can think of.

    Well every four years we choose the head of the Government. If giving people a choice on who heads the government is a moral issue, then we are about in the middle of the pack. So who has the moral high ground in your opinion? Which country has acted morally throughout their history?

    They are the world terrorists.

    They have a lot of company.

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  28. newton,

    And as I explained to you, each country has its position about which rights they feel are important and which aren’t. The US doesn’t feel you have the right to a house or food or medical care. The US doesn’t feel it’s important that you have the right to feel safe from being shot. They don’t feel it’s important that you get to vote for supreme court justices who serve for life. They don’t feel you should have the right to do what you want with your body. So I disagree with you that the minority is protected. The majority decides which rights you get.

    So I am not buying your argument that the US system is by definition better in any way. Some things are good and some things are abhorrent. Arguing US exceptionalism is an argument made inside a bubble with dark glasses on. Outside the bubble the view is quite different. As far as countries and rights and quality of life, the US unfortunately can’t crack the top twenty. After the idiot it can’t crack the top fifty I would say.

    Ever heard of the Espionage act of 1917 ? Look it up next time you want to say that in America you are free to say or believe whatever you want. Don’t believe all the propaganda.

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  29. phoodoo: America believes in that value?

    What the heck are you talking about?

    You tell me. According to the Chinese government this is part of the “West’s value system”. To be honest, I am rather surprised by your sudden cultural relativist position on moral issues.

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  30. newton: It is never that easy .The problem is defining what constitutes torture , that is the get out of jail free card.

    For sure. Governments will be forever squirming to redefine the terms. Still, “enhanced interrogation techniques” and “human rights with Chinese characteristics” are both rather transparent eufemisms.

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  31. Corneel,

    That’s what Lyndie England was doing? I wonder where she learned it. Tim Kennedy brags about his torture skills.

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  32. phoodoo: I wonder where she learned it. Tim Kennedy brags about his torture skills.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/666287509/ex-detainee-describes-torture-in-chinas-xinjiang-re-education-camp

    “They made me wear what they called ‘iron clothes,’ a suit made of metal that weighed over 50 pounds,” says Samarkand, drawing a picture of the device on a piece of paper. “It forced my arms and legs into an outstretched position. I couldn’t move at all, and my back was in terrible pain.”

    Samarkand says after half a day of standing like this, he did whatever they told him.

    Seems they can learn from the masters however….

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  33. phoodoo: As far as countries and rights and quality of life, the US unfortunately can’t crack the top twenty.

    https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

    United States: 15
    China: 63

    Is that one of the lies you tell the dozens of people you meet a day?

    I guess that what comes of being a propagandist, you start to believe it yourself after a while.

    “When I arrived back home, nobody in my village would talk to me because they were scared to talk to someone like me who had been in the camps,” he says. “The village had changed. There were police everywhere, cameras on all corners and nobody even greeted each other on the street anymore. Traditional patterns of life in the village had been erased.”

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  34. phoodoo: Ever heard of the Espionage act of 1917 ? Look it up next time you want to say that in America you are free to say or believe whatever you want. Don’t believe all the propaganda.

    How many people have been prosecuted, in your opinion, unfairly under that act?

    Given that ostensibly it relates to the release of information related to national security is it really your claim that it makes America less free the China?

    Does it stop the average person on the street from saying or believing anything they want? Was it intended to stop the average person on the street from saying or believing anything they want?

    Whereas in China you seem to have exactly that. Systems in place that monitor and then correct thinking that diverges from the accepted. America has no such system.

    phoodoo: How do you suppose they ask Chinese people this question-they call them on the phone? Preposterous.

    Why? What’s so absurd about that? It’s interesting how you make a claim and then when evidence is presented that disconfirms tha claim you just brush it off.

    Or perhaps you know that if called up everyone would rate China 10/10 on everything just in case it’s a loyalty test?

    Tell me, what is the correct ranking for China re: happyness? First? Last?

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  35. phoodoo:

    And as I explained to you,each country has its position about which rights they feel are important and which aren’t.The US doesn’t feel you have the right to a house or food or medical care.

    OK, I’ll agree with this. The US government does not either guarantee OR DENY anyone the rights to a house or food or medical care. The US idea is, these things are universally available to anyone with the means to obtain them. The goal, in theory, is that everyone has the opportunity to achieve these means. Yes, there has been an ongoing battle to get everyone to the same starting line, but opportunity remains much more difficult for some to achieve than for others. Nonetheless, the goal remains equality of opportunity, NOT equality of results. It’s a competition model – everyone starts at the same time and place, but not everyone crosses the finish line together.

    The US doesn’t feel it’s important that you have the right to feel safe from being shot.

    I’m not going to dispute people’s feelings, but I will point out that every “right” involves a trade-off. Is the right to own a weapon more or less important than the right to feel safe from being shot? Is there some compromise position, where the right to own a weapon is sensibly restricted? If so, how should a compromise position be reached? Should people decide, or should government decide for them?

    They don’t feel it’s important that you get to vote for supreme court justices who serve for life.

    Again the tradeoffs. The US Supreme Court justices are appointed for life. Many (perhaps most) state supreme court justices are elected for fixed terms. On the one hand, presumably at the federal level the justices can be unbiased because they aren’t constantly campaigning. On the other hand, at the state level the justices can be kicked out by the voters if they are not competent. Which approach works better? My opinion is, the theory hasn’t held in practice. Judges at every level decide cases along party lines, whether elected for 2 year terms or appointed for life. I see no way to get politics out of legal decisions.

    They don’t feel you should have the right to do what you want with your body.

    Well, who is “they”? Medical procedures are generally voluntary (if you have the money, of course). Abortion is not necessarily a government decision, but those who oppose abortion want to use the law to impose their opinion on everyone. Whether Roe is overturned or not, the US has drifted into a position where availability of abortion depends on where you live. Speaking generally, support for punishing victimless “crimes” is diminishing. When the “victim” is someone’s notion of public morality, that’s thin legal ice.

    So I disagree with you that the minority is protected. The majority decides which rights you get.

    Yes, within limits. The philosophy in the US is that minorities are guaranteed some basic protections, and beyond that majorities decide. In other nations, the philosophy is that government determines all rights, protections, and prohibitions, without meaningful public input. And that approach works better with homogeneous societies where values are widely shared. It’s a recipe for repression and violence in more heterogenous societies.

    Trump’s popularity has demonstrated that the US has a significant population of people who can’t abide change. These are the people who, for whatever reason, considered themselves at the top of the hill, and every direction is down.

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  36. phoodoo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

    Yes, I get that all sides have done terrible things.

    But your side is the one doing terrible things now and that seems to bother you not at all.

    And your downfall is contained in your link:

    203 U.S. personnel were charged with crimes, 57 were court-martialed and 23 were convicted.

    How many have been charged with crimes against humanity for enforced sterilizations and creating “re-education” camps where millions have been tortured? That’s the difference. When right minded people find out about such events they are repulsed. You seem to be cheering on the camps on the basis that different societies have different priorities so it’s fine.

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  37. phoodoo:
    OMagain,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

    So, was that officially sanctioned government policy then? If not, what actual relevance does it have to what China is doing now, officially, at a governmental level.

    You seem to think that by highlighting what happens when we dehumanize our fellow citizens it justifies dehumanizing the group you happen to want dehumanized?

    Instead in fact you are actually condoning such events as that massacre given your lack of condemnation for massacres that are much larger in scale that just happen to have the imprimatur of officialdom on them. You have created the enemy, and they are subhuman and therefore deserve the terrible things you are doing to them.

    Just another creationist looking up for a authority figure to tell them what to think and who is bad. No wonder you live in China.

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  38. phoodoo: Could be; I haven’t lived in the US for a while so I don’t know how apt your description of the living conditions is.

    I do know the police treat everyone there like they are inmates so I can understand why you might feel that way.

    I was wondering how phoodoo dared bring up conditions in the USA given Hong Kong

    phoodoo: Do you have any idea (of course not) how much safer and stable China is compared to the United States of Crime and death? Please save your uneducated ignorance for someone who is more easily fooled.

    And then it occurred to me, Perhaps he does not actually know!:
    https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/china-hong-kong-media/

    If he knew about the ongoing protests and the ongoing repression he’d stay silent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Hong_Kong_protests as a day in Portland, USA produces nothing like the daily arrest count in Hong Kong.

    So from that first link it seems that what people actually know about Hong Kong is tightly controlled by Mr Charringdon and that phoodoo can view Portland through a lens that does not include the demonstrable fact of China’s violent repressive response to protest and so attempt to make that comparison. He has indeed been absorbed into the collective.

    Have they promised you a stolen organ phoodoo?

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  39. OMagain,

    Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, as were children as young as 12.[1][2] Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses, but only Lieutenant William Calley Jr., a platoon leader in C Company, was convicted. Found guilty of killing 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence, but served only three-and-a-half years under house arrest.

    Have you renewed your subscription to the National Review?

    How many people are being held in ICE camps, scumbag?

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  40. phoodoo: Have you renewed your subscription to the National Review?

    How many people are being held in ICE camps, scumbag?

    Either holding people in such camps is a good thing or it is a bad thing.

    I say it is a bad thing. Do you also say it’s a bad thing? Do you say that regardless of where the camp is and what the reason for it is?

    Or is it OK that such camps exist in China but not in the USA?

    As the impression you are giving is that different countries do things in different ways so it’s OK for China to do what it’s doing.

    According to Wikipedia: During Fiscal Year 2018, 396,448 people were booked into ICE custody: 242,778 of whom were detained by CBP and 153,670 by ICE’s own enforcement operations

    And if we’re playing a numbers game, which apparently we are, that pales into insignificance when compared to the number of people in re-education camps in China.

    Feel free to condemn the behavior of both the USA and China, as I am doing and as I have done.

    Or not and continue to take payment in stolen organs, All the same to me Mr C.

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  41. phoodoo: Have you renewed your subscription to the National Review?

    I get that you see no difference between the unsanctioned actions of individual people and the state acting with deliberate intent. I suppose it’s part of the propaganda you are teaching and disseminating, to conflate the actions of the individual with the actions of the state to tar the state with those actions.

    Ironically you don’t actually need to do that, the state is already tarred sufficiently. And that’s what I’m saying. You have never once condemned the actions of your state whereas I have condemned both.

    Your attitude seems to be one that China is attempting to inculcate, that it’s actions are justified and you are fully on board. Whereas I will never be on board with concentration camps, wherever they are USA or China.

    Nazi cunt.

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  42. phoodoo: How many people are being held in ICE camps, scumbag?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/20/kirstjen-nielsen-heckled-by-protesters-at-mexican-restaurant-if-kids-dont-eat-in-peace-you-dont-eat-in-peace/

    Protesters entered a Mexican restaurant in D.C. on Tuesday evening to heckle Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen. She appeared to sit quietly with her head down for more than 10 minutes listening to the protesters chanting “Shame!” and “End family separation!”

    Protesters, roughly 10 to 15 of them, entered MXDC Cocina Mexicana about 8 p.m. while Nielsen finished her meal with one other person. The restaurant’s general manager, Thomas Genovese, told The Washington Post that Nielsen had been dining for about an hour when the heckling began. She did not come with a reservation, he said. The eatery is about two blocks east of the White House.

    “Secretary Nielsen!” a male protester yelled as the group approached Nielsen’s table, according to live video footage posted on Facebook by Metro D.C. Democratic Socialists of America. “How dare you spend your evening here eating dinner as you’re complicit in the separation and deportation of over 10,000 children separated from their parents? How can you enjoy a Mexican dinner as you’re deporting and imprisoning tens of thousands of people who come here seeking asylum in the United States? We call on you to end family separation and abolish ICE!”

    Can you imagine senior party members in China being approached the same way? They’d need to build another prison there and then.

    That’s the difference phoodoo. Terrible things happen in the USA but the people actually get to hear about them, unlike your 1984 paradise where such dissent is impossible.

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  43. OMagain: I get that you see no difference between the unsanctioned actions of individual people and the state acting with deliberate intent.

    I know, its so unfair how a few bad apples can ruin the name of an invading country onto a foreign nation slaughtering innocent people for its own interests.

    Carpet bombing with agent orange just isn’t as respected as it once was. Unfair, unfair.

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  44. phoodoo: I know, its so unfair how a few bad apples can ruin the name of an invading country onto a foreign nation slaughtering innocent people for its own interests.

    Carpet bombing with agent orange just isn’t as respected as it once was. Unfair, unfair.

    Whatever you say does nothing to hide the fact you refuse to condemn concentration camps when it’s happening to the ‘right’ people. No matter who did what to who whenever, here and now you support concentration camps.

    Afraid of something are we? What’s the worst that could happen if you were to condemn what’s happening to Uighur muslims in china?

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke

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