Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.
I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.
And some lack the irony gene
If a segment of the populace is unwilling to give up some personal freedoms, totalitarian is exactly what is needed.Some countries have such an infrastructure in place already.
newton,
Its weird how each state is seeing outbreaks even though its the states that are responsible for the outbreak. Its as if the US is experiencing the virus as a whole, rather than states experiencing it. I think this might be why we aren’t comparing Oregon to Holland.
newton,
You mean like South Korea, Australia, Taiwan, Vietnam, Italy…
Those poor poor citizens, loving their country and not knowing they shouldn’t because they are not America…
If only they knew.
phoodoo, I really think you need to stop using sardony; you so often write things that are incredibly stupid, so spotting when you humorously mean the opposite of what you write is near impossible. Simply put: ridicule, you are doing it wrong.
Example 1:
Given your never-ending diatribe that the USA has the worst CoViD response, and China’s was awesome [which I by and large agree with, as does newton], your citing a Time article with the title “U.S. Response to COVID-19 is Worse than China’s. 100 Times Worse” seemed straight up. But oddly, when I point out that the article uses the (in your mind, ridiculous) per capita CoVid deaths as its metric, suddenly you are being sarcastic, and you appear to be claiming that the US response is not worse than China’s. Huh? Which is it, and why?
Even more baroque is this:
You appear to be claiming that the various states are all experiencing outbreaks, and that this is evidence that supports your contention that dealing with the pandemic is in no way a states’ responsibility, but rather is 100% the federal government’s job.
How could you actually mean this? This must be sardony since [caution: facts ahead] the various states have amazingly different experiences re CoViD. Compare the recent data on Northeastern states as compared with MS, GA, FL, SC, AZ, & TX.
Your evidence-free assertions are even worse that petrushka’s.
This strikes me as a reasonable argument made a bit too simple. Certainly a national coherent approach, with governments at all levels making decisions appropriate to each level, would be an optimal strategy. It’s not 100% anyone’s job, but neither can any level, especially the federal level, abdicate responsibility. I would contend that primary responsibility is at the federal level.
One can’t help but wonder which aspects of the different state experiences are due to a lack of national leadership, which are the results of bungling by state governors lacking national direction, and which happen because of variations in locale, urbanization, and the accidents of near-random clusters. In any case, despite large differences in state-level experience, the best available solutions (wear masks, keep distance, avoid crowds) apply to all states and it’s inefficient for every state to have to re-invent these wheels independently.
DNA_Jock,
Wyoming is different than New York? Well , I’ll be darn! Must be the governor.
I showed you the Time article precisely to show that by ANY standard of looking at it, even the way you are, every country is better than the US. Even with all the great medical hospitals, all the research facilities, all the famous universities, all the wealth, all the history, the US still manages to be the worst in the world. Quibbling that perhaps if you cherry pick the stats you can find one or two countries that seem almost as bad as the US shows exactly how pathetic the response has been. If anyone can’t see that, it is hardly my problem of understanding.
The US is Clearly the hands down winner of fucking up by a long long shot.
Alan Fox,
Yep, sounds like someone who might otherwise have judiciously considered all the issues before casting their ballot!
The problem I am attempting to highlight is the existence, in the same connected world, of those that don’t … !
And of course it’s not simply the pre-existing apparatus of the state, or the willingness to focus that on this particular threat. Some states are barely functioning. Others are not possessed of the deep pockets and technological advancement of China.
This is the thing. Now extend your logic to include other geographical areas with land borders, but no federal oversight. It’s as if the world is experiencing the virus as a whole.
Of course, governments vary widely in their competence. But governments can only do so much.
Of course, populations vary in what they will tolerate, and may need ‘persuasion’. But security services can only do so much.
We had 35,000 (or so) rallying in Trafalgar Square a couple of days back, protesting Covid measures. Even though I am a bit of a lockdown skeptic – I think people can have a naive, one-sided ‘miracle-cure’ allegiance to it – I can’t be aligned with these numpties: 5g conspiracists, NWO ‘plandemic’ pushers etc. Organised by the brother of He-Who-Would-Be-Prime-Minister (But-Was-Beaten-By-Populism) Jeremy Corbyn, who received a £10,000 fine for his trouble, this shot caught my eye. Two signs, evidently by the same hand, adopting a completely contradictory position on masks. They can’t both reduce immunity and increase infection risk!
Ah but!
Isn’t the logic that first you lose your immunity by not being exposed to bugs by wearing a mask, then, having lost your immunity, you catch something by being exposed to bugs by wearing a mask!
Oh wait…
Two separate issues. The States which did not see outbreaks earlier was in great part due to natural social distancing, a low population density. And unlike New York State, no huge influx European travelers. But did have a slower movement of people from States with higher infection rates. Over time, the math caught up.
How they react to health issues is determined by the political and financial.
Could, but since the population density of the Netherlands around 38 times greater than Oregon, why would you?
I understand that.
I agree, and some have both those things but lack the centralization of power or will to employ whatever draconian measures necessary. Haven’t seen any pictures of Chinese protesting masks.
That is a pretty white crowd,
Ha. Some places don’t consider it draconian measures to ask their citizens to wear masks to save their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
Wacky how some some cultures are, I know.
Not sure what you are responding to. I am sure national pride exists everywhere.
Not disputing those countries have dealt with the pandemic better than the US. Or denying the US Federal Government has a role in public health. Or that Trump has made the situation worse , just as he is stoking racial conflict now for his own ends.
The only thing that brings some solace is Trump does not have the power of Xi Jinping .Prefer dying of the virus if it comes to that.
One might point out that Taiwan would not have any national pride at all if China has its way.
The draconian part comes not from the asking, but how it responds when the answer is no.
Who would ever guess how tasty boiled crawfish are looking at where they thrive.
Yes, each of those things are factors. You have a President who actively undermines a unified message, accepts no responsibility failures and blames others , at the same time takes credit for any successes. But was duly elected by citizens who had no reason ,given his public history, to expect other behavior.
And most importantly retains support of the same supporters, which gives him political power to influence other politicians at Federal and State levels.
The same people who elected some of those State officials. So ultimately, that 40% bears responsibility. Thing is, some are happy with the results. The only regret is they have not completely fucked things up.
True, that is the duty of the Federal Government , to provide resources and expertise and support. Some of which has been provided on the basis of Party affiliations.
OMG, what a delightfully misplaced taunt!
Actually, Wyoming is curiously similar to New York. I would group it with the NorthEastern states in terms of handling CoViD effectively (see chart below)
Remember, the states I highlighted as differing from the NorthEast were “MS, GA, FL, SC, AZ, & TX.” To which I would now add the Dakotas, Iowa and perhaps Alabama (see chart below).
And do you know what distinguishes Wyoming from those states?
It IS governor Mark Gordon, FFS!
State government matters.
Sheesh!
DNA_Jock,
What in heavens name are you even trying to say here? Have you ever been to America?
Wyoming is the least densely populated state in the US (outside of Alaska) . As such it has some of the lowest rates of covid-wow, surprise! If you needed a chart to know this, I suggest maybe you have never been to America.
Wyoming is next to Montana (you can see it on a map if you are not sure). Montana has roughly double the population of Wyoming. Guess what? They have roughly double the cases and double the deaths. Whoa, what a coincidence! Who would have thought?? They must have the same Governors!
You know which states also have low population densities? Maine. Alaska.
Vermont.
Guess who else also has low covid cases?
I don’t want to give the answer yet, for those who might not have figured out the mystery yet…
Hint-One thing they all don’t have in common-they don’t all have the same Governor. Sssshhh. Don’t give away the answer.
What a genius.
So are the Dakotas. And they are the next two least population-dense states…
Why do you think I mentioned the Dakotas?
Hint: CoVid cases there are going through the roof right now (see chart below).
ROFLMAO
I have lived in the USA for the last 30+ years. You, OTOH, appear rather out of touch with the USA: remember, your claim was that
This is the claim that I have been ridiculing. With data.
DNA_Jock,
A spike in North Dakota and South Dakota since August 16th? Hmmmm…I wonder why?? Oh, and look there, there is a little bump in Wyoming as well!
This is your great insight is it?
Buy a newspaper. Then ask someone to read it to you.
Let me see if this helps you Jock :
Wyoming population 578,000. Covid cases 3866, 41 deaths.
Manitoba Canada, population 1.3 million. Covid cases 1232. 14 deaths.
More than double the population, one third less cases, one third less deaths.
Blame it on the governor?
Saskatchewan population, 1.1 million. Covid cases 1622. 24 deaths.
Man, the orange idiot should fire his governors!
Sichuan China,(next to Hubei province) population 80 million. Covid cases 604. Deaths 3.
Holy shit, the orange idiot should be campaigning for a Chinese governor.
But of course you don’t believe those numbers, you think it’s five deaths.
Perhaps, phoodoo, the FBI should engage with their psychics to help the CDC identify the next outbreak?
It is argued here that the variation in state experience and response is of the same order as that between separate countries.
Allan Miller,
Nice article, thanks for the link. Figure 8 is a particularly brutal indictment.
How fucked up is America- another example:
With all this nonsense talk of it requiring “totalitarianism” to institute an effective covid response, I would just like to remind the great patriots what a truly messed up country the US has become. How many times in the past several months have we seen reports of police chiefs talking about wanting to shoot citizens? I have seen dozens. And the amount of outrage from the press doesn’t equal the vitriol a community should have over such nonsense.
That quote is from a sheriff from Ohio. He goes on to say
So let’s turn this around on another fine paid protector of public safety. What if his own constituents said that to him? What if constituents across America said that to the police? What if they said, if you start shooting our citizens (which they are doing regularly) , expect us to shoot back! Nothing in life is free!
Can you imagine the outrage the police unions would have? They would be calling for the IMMEDIATE arrest of anyone who posted that.
You even have elected members of congress calling for shooting people-
Notice the little lie in there-“We don’t care what color you are” ?Are you telling me this scumbag is saying that he wants police to start shooting at the gangs of WHITE far right protesters who are showing up armed all over the country ? This is what he wants to do? You fucking liar Clay. To this date has there been ANY police action taken against the armed right wingers causing trouble all across America? I haven’t seen even ONE news story about that. Heck the idiot 17 year old murderer in Kenosha (inspired by the orangest idiot on the planet) could barely get himself arrested, walking up to police telling him to stop walking, carrying an AR-15 and he just keeps walking at the police. They yell at him to stop, but he doesn’t stop. And what happens, do they shoot him? OF COURSE NOT. The police don’t shoot white guys with automatic weapons. They are the good guys right?
So worst covid response on the planet by a mile, most people incarcerated in the world, most guns, most shooting deaths, highest medical cost, one of the worst wage gaps in the world, and the worst, most brutal police in the world, run by congressman who want to be able to start shooting people, because they are bored. As you slowly spiral further and further down the drain. Wake the fuck up…
I note with some interest that Canada has closed its borders to US citizens for the duration of the pandemic. It’s been shown ad nauseum that Covid cases cluster around spreading events, sometimes dramatically (as in the case of the hundreds of cases in Maine, and counting, from a single wedding). Closing borders to likely infected people seems a good strategy. But that’s not something Wyoming has the power to do.
Many of the cases in Maine were spread by some religious minister who attended the wedding, learned he was positive on Saturday, and nevertheless held his usual service the next day, no masks. Most of the congregation is now positive, but the minister is defiant — them damn liberals are trying to outlaw church! Where do you suppose he got that idea?
phoodoo,
I’ve yet to see a rebuttal. If people won’t willingly submit to the state’s*** chosen measures, what do you do? It certainly must help if the population are already used to being told what to do.
*** in the general sense, not US-specific, which is all anyone seems to care about round here.
As an aside, are you completely free to say what you think on here? Blink twice for yes …
Allan Miller,
How did Taiwan do it?
Allan Miller,
I also take issue with the notion that the US, or England for that matter, is any freer than the rest of the world. I think in many many ways they are less free.
Allan Miller,
People get stopped in America all the time for walking across the street wrong, for riding their bikes wrong, for playing Frisbee on the beach, for wearing the wrong kind of bikini, for loitering, for breaking curfews, they get tickets for not cutting their grass, they get reprimanded for painting their house the wrong color or for adding a carport, or for cutting their trees, for not treating their pets right, for having the wrong signs on their yard, …
What do you do when they won’t listen?
phoodoo,
But they are allowed to carry ak-47s whereever they want (as long as they are white), I will grant you that.
Better preparedness, contact tracing, incoming quarantine. They never had to deal with significant community transmission, the thing for which lockdown appears to be the go-to solution. Also, geography.
In many ways, you may well be right. But can you say what you like about the government on here? It’s a freedom you may consider unimportant relative to others, but that’s not really the question.
All things the US could have but didn’t do.
Allan Miller,
The less there is to dislike, the less it is an issue. I have little to dislike.
Allan Miller,
I guarantee there are many many more things you can get in trouble for or fined for in the US than there is here. Believe it or not people here don’t fear the government.
I’m not arguing that there wasn’t a window of opportunity to suppress. But all you need is one country to fail on a big scale, and the world has it. It’s not just the US; many, many countries have ‘failed’ on that scale. So ultimately, the victories of the ‘better’ nations will be Pyrrhic.
Allan Miller,
I certainly think that is possible. But if an effective vaccine becomes available sooner rather than later, the better countries will have been the prudent ones. Especially if the virus has some of the long term affects some say it has.
Allan Miller,
BTW, I originally scoffed at the lockdown here. My girlfriend begged me like crazy not to go outside, and not to talk to so many people. Life here was really like a nuclear apocalypse for one month. A city full of millions of people and outside you couldn’t hear a single sound. No cars. Streetlights but not a soul around. It was truly bizarre.
But it worked. Right now this is probably the only place in the world where life seems normal now.
This is the big unknown. It’s like a strategy game that also depends on dice rolls. If an effective vaccine takes a couple of years, ‘natural’ immunity will get there first in many nations.
I’m certainly nervous of Trump’s willingness to roll out a vaccine in time for the elections. But Russia are doing similar. The damage to global vaccine takeup across the board could be enormous, if a mistake were made.
phoodoo,
Similar here. Nothing in the skies, silence on the roads. People took it seriously. But it was too late for eradication. It’s one of the ironies – you need to do it when it seems like an over-reaction.
Allan Miller,
I recently saw that people who had sars seventeen years ago still have some immunity against covid now.
It’s certainly possible. A ‘natural’ infection may produce more variation in the antibodies generated, across the population, than the more narrow range of specificity generated by some vaccine methods, giving some scope for cross-specificity between strains.
Unless they are in a camp having their organs stolen.
I guess that’s one of the perks of having no free press.