Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.
I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.
phoodoo,
DNA_Jock,
Its good to hear that you run a business. Maybe we have some common ground. Phoodoo claims that Trump started this crisis. Is this the claim you share with him?
Flint,
Politicians make arguments that we either accept or reject. You were not attacking Trumps arguments in the beginning you were attacking him personally. A lot of people hate this guy and I do not deny some of it is deserved. When you start by attacking him personally independent voters who understand reasoning will turn you off.
I can make the claim the the Dems have a candidate with no energy and appears to be suffering from early onset dementia as he struggles to put words together.I could also make the claim he is on the take from a hostile foreign governments. I just don’t think this moves the discussion forward do you? What does demonizing the candidates accomplishment. They are both people with strengths and weaknesses.
Sorry, posted twice by accident.
This is a good point. When we vote for a candidate, what are we actually voting for? Yes, we can read their campaign promises, their party platforms, etc. Problem is, most promises can’t be kept (pesky Congress, you know). Another problem is that in real life as opposed to the campaign trail, nontrivial proposals run into messy details. It’s one thing to have a policy position, and another to actually implement that policy on the ground, complete with details, budgets, opposition, exceptions and edge cases, etc.
But perhaps the most difficult thing is, as Yogi Berra might have said, prediction is difficult, especially about the future. How can we possibly know today about what our candidate might encounter in the future? Things like pandemics, or unanticipated important court rulings. But things keep coming up, and the candidate if elected will have no choice but to respond to them in some way.
Because of all these things, we aren’t voting so much for a platform as we are for a personality. Does this candidate inspire confidence? Is he a leader? What is his record? If the candidate has a history of bankruptcies, of stiffing his contractors, of coming up with scams (like “universities” or “charities”), of hiding his taxes and business records, of demonstrably lying about absolutely everything, should we care about such things? If he has a history of bigotry (like the Central Park Five, and birtherism, and being sued for refusing to rent to blacks), should this matter?
So sure, we need to evaluate each candidate’s personal history, strengths and weaknesses, public record, etc. You have to ask yourself just how awful someone must be on nearly every possible metric, before maybe his opponent’s weaknesses aren’t quite as scary.
And as a footnote, I think when a sizeable army of folks with personal experience of the candidate universally condemn him in no uncertain terms, these people are worth listening to. In fact, when he is supported ONLY by those fearful of losing an election if they grow a spine, this probably also tells us something.
Go ahead, make the case.
Read more than watch, I find broadcast news annoyingly repetitive. So was I inaccurate? Bankruptcies are public records, the payoff of the lawsuit is also in the public record , as is the status of Trumps Foundation.
Didn’t get in a war with North Korea. Your turn.
Clinton raised taxes to balance that budget which was opposed by every Republican , Obama was opposed by most Republicans on the bailout . So both the things you named were consider bad things from a Republican viewpoint.
You want me to name what Republicans think are Trump’s accomplishments?
Ok, he also caused a bidding war between the States for PPE, required praise before he did his job, used political consideration to which areas to send supplies, this cost the taxpayers more money. So saved one company , cost taxpayer more money.
So if a bank robber helps a little old lady across the street does than balance out robbing a couple of banks?
Haha, yes, my throwaway comment is not, I freely concede, the whole story. My target was the notion “how can he be stupid when he won an election?”. It’s obviously a skill, and one I don’t possess, but that does not necessarily speak to his intelligence given the possibility that his fans are dumb. Not saying they are, but …
I won’t win any converts, but then I don’t think there are any converts to be won. Between the conservatives who could not vote for any candidate other than the Republican (pig-in-a-blue-rosette syndrome, for our version) and the inexplicable cultists (I had to switch off The Apprentice; he was an asshole then), a large percentage of the vote is already in the bag. Some people even give him money, can you believe it?
We have our own version of this, though the central character is less repulsive. But the skill of winning an election has spectacularly failed to translate into competent governance.
And many (to my mind) potentially competent individuals lack the ability to get elected. Of course they also don’t have the opportunity to demonstrate that competence. That’s the trouble with politics. We never get to test alternative hypotheses.
No, it’s correct. There’s a classic example upthread.
It’s discounting a view or argument because of who says it, thus avoiding having having to address that argument.
(On ad hominem (properly italicised), it’s an example of the language moving away from us. It has indeed become a (pretentious) synonym for ‘insult’. People argue that there is an implicit ‘argumentum‘ in front of it – it wouldn’t have even been picked up but for that usage – but shorn of the prefix, it does indeed just mean ‘to the man’, allowing it to be used outside the logical fallacy in which it has its origins. Like the regrettable generalisation of ‘reach out’ to mean simply ‘contact’, shorn of the original sense of accompanying anguish, novel usage takes over – evolves – and we gibber our objections from the grave)
Allan Miller,
English teachers! What do they know?
colewd,
You are going to give him credit for a stimulus package that was pretty much mandatory, but you don’t give him the blame for the worst handling of the virus crisis of all countries in the world?
Do you think America could possibly have handled it any worse?
Actually, you have broadened the meaning of ad hominem to mean “anyone who disagrees with me”. It’s clear as day to everyone except you
Orange Turnip supporters. Perhaps one is nonlin?
If he loses the Senate, there are only investigations of his corruption on tap. Perhaps the full Mueller report, revelation of income tax, Trump may have the distinction of a double impeachment.
That is what she said, he is uncontrollable as Republicans have found out, he will do anything to get the next fix to feed his ego.
Welcome to the club ,nonlin.
In Trump speak, fake is anything not obsequious fawning ,deep state is the Constitution.
Traveling to Tulsa? Just think what a honor it would be to contract the virus at the rally. To die for the Emperor Palpatine like a good little Storm Trooper.
Do not confuse America with Trump, American healthcare workers risked and are still risking their lives to handle it. Governors and mayors made and are making hard decisions for the public welfare. Parts of the Federal Government functioned despite Trump.
This is not over, Florida ,Texas ,Arizona are spiking. All Republican Governors , there will be no more lockdowns.
newton,
What confusion am I making? Has any country handled the virus worse than America? Maybe Albania? If we try really hard can we try to come up with a worse nation?
You are confusing ineptitude at Trump level for the people who actually do the work despite the handicap. The doctors and nurses in New York, for instance .Not disputing Trump and Jared and the whole gang are a calamity. America is more than
Trump.
Brazil, is worse. Yemen.Russia,maybe. If you go just by the death rate metric , lots of countries
Not a possibility, a certainty .
newton,
WTF? Yemen has 635 total cases in the whole country. Brazil’s gdp is 1.869 trillion, compared to the US’s 20 trillion and the US has 116,000 dead compared to Brazil’s 41,000.
So, just like I said, you can try to twist and spin and claim that some third world country with a very poor medical infrastructure, is somehow close to the US’s ineptitude in dealing with this, but then don’t you feel even a little embarrassed trying to compare the US to Yemen? Its the same nonsense shit people say when they say, “Well, look how free the US is, in North Korea there is no free press” as if this is some great endorsement of America.
Its an actual indictment of the US when you compare it to the worst of the worst on the planet and say, “Well look, in some respects we are better than Turkmenistan, so…”
Total fuck-up handling this crisis. Own it.
Yes, you reek of it. Unable to defund the indefensible, you resort to haha. Such a tell.
Yep
Only by engaging, it always has been a failing. But you are so silly, it is irresistible.
Sure you can. Spend more money than you have, and can’t pay your bills.
Certainly it is viewed as a failure by those you owe money who will not get paid. Essentially stealing their money. Then the idea of having to get government protection , sucking at the teat of government in the common parlance. Government bailout for bad decisions, Not a failure?
It is failure, and what makes it praiseworthy is how you do it. Using bankruptcies to stiff others repeatedly is hardly praiseworthy to anyone but Trump acolytes.
Grifters got to grift. Now they have the taste of the public teat propping up their businesses. If the family is not in power the spigot drys up, Don’t believe me, how about the head of the campaign
“Mr. Parscale made the remarks at a California Republican convention in Indian Wells, in a speech that touched on the party and the presidency. “The Trumps will be a dynasty that lasts for decades,” Mr. Parscale said.
“So nice, everyone wants Ivanka Trump to be the new United Nations Ambassador,” tweeted Trump of his eldest daughter in October 2018. “She would be incredible, but I can already hear the chants of nepotism! We have great people that want the job.”
“If she ever wanted to run for president,” Trump told The Atlantic earlier this year. “I think she’d be very, very hard to beat.” Added Trump of Ivanka”
It is okay, you will be fine with political dynasties if Trump tells you to think that way.
“Yemen has so far reported 564 confirmed coronavirus infections and 130 related deaths, but the figures lag and may not include all cases in areas controlled by the Houthis in the north, Colville said.
The challenging situation is compounded by the country’s extremely limited testing capacity. According to data compiled by the International Rescue Committee, Yemen has one of the world’s lowest testing rates, even compared with other conflict-hit countries, at just 31 tests per million citizens
The UN says the country’s health system has in effect collapsed, with hospitals lacking beds and basic medicine and turning away sick people. The country’s malnourished population has among the world’s lowest immunity levels to disease.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/issues-desperate-plea-financial-aid-war-ravaged-yemen-200612175307651.html
Look at the curve,Covid arrived later in Brazil ,Brazil’s curve continues to climb and their President is a Trump clone not worried about re-election. Same as here, local officials are doing everything they can while the head of the federal government actively sabotages the effort.
.
You asked a question, UK has a higher rate per million, but a denser population. I have already conceded the federal government’s leadership general ineptitude. Is Trump the worst , ok. But Trump is not the country. In fact the case might be made Trump failure . makes everyone to have to work harder.
They might say the same thing about China or Russia.
For nationalists it would be.
Not at the levels that do the actual work with people , they have to deal with virus and the ineptitude of Trump. Your hatred of Trump is affecting your reasoning.
I’m not sure that ineptitude or incompetence describe what has happened, because I think the reality is more complex. But to simplify, Trump simply didn’t want the virus to happen here. Like the Chinese and other autocratic rulers, he gambled that the virus wasn’t nearly so bad as people feared. Often, this bet wins. This time it lost. But Trump cannot admit he’s ever wrong, so he had little choice but to continue making the same bet over and over. Which entailed not only discontinuing any federal-level action, but stifling the CDC, removing the scientists from the decision process (I saw a MAGA protester with a sign that said “science is FAKE NEWS”), and constantly fighting to change the subject and the focus.
In other words, the US has the poster child worst response not because the Trump administration is inept or incompetent, but because the attempted to achieve a different goal. Inept or incompetent would describe someone who tried his best to protect national health but lacked the skill to do so. It’s not fair to accuse someone of failing to do X when they were trying to do Y.
phoodoo,
Do you think you or Newton have a clue about this virus and can make a judgement how well the US handled it compared to the rest of the world. If you said that South Korea did a better job that’s a legitimate argument. To say the US handled it worse than Europe is a stretch especially given the travel from the US to China.
Both of you are looking at the data to satisfy your narrative. You say its one persons fault and Newton claims it is spiking. Neither of these claims is supportable at these point.
The incompetence claim stems from the lack of preforming x, which many judge essential part that he was hired to do.His decision to prioritize y for his own gain and disregard a potential danger to the country just compounds his incompetence to preform the job of President. Let us hope he is just as incompetent in preforming y.
newton,
Can you put some facts together with this story?
What would you consider a fact? Bolton claims that for Trump, getting re-elected is the only thing that matters. His entire approach to the pandemic, and to the rule of law, and to the ~20,000 lies he’s told so far (according to Politifact) are entirely consistent with this overriding goal. Not to mention having acting secretaries (to get around Senate confirmation) hand-picked solely for personal loyalty to Donald J. Trump, often with no other relevant qualifications. Anyone who has ever said anything but YES to Trump is long gone.
Like, it started on day 1, when he had Spicer claim he had the largest inauguration crowd in history. And to support this lie, he produced photographs of the March on Washington from the following day!
In my shorthand, X stands for the job of leadership, of working for the good of the people, of respecting the Constitution. Y is getting re-elected, whatever it takes.
Not just me, the entire world knows. They are laughing at America with a kind of amazed pity. Everywhere you go in the world people are saying, “Man, look at what has happened to that once great country…” I am not making this up, It is universally what people think of the US right now.
I just met with a group of diplomats from Europe yesterday. When it comes to the US they just all nod. The consensus feeling is so well understood, that they don’t even have to say anything, Its like the way you would mention a crazy friend who has totally gone off the deep end. You would just say their name and everyone would just shake their head in knowing agreement. Everyone is thinking the same thing, “Sad isn’t it…”
There is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, where the world think, look at how smart the US is. You can try to blame someone other than the turnip for this. The republicans as whole have created this mess. But infant orange is the families final retarded son, that the family can no longer hide in the closet during dinner parties, because he gotten out and has a diaper on his head and is throwing feces down on all the guests from the balcony.
newton,
America-arguably better than Yemen!
Guess God is really giving those people a full dose of His love, the pandemic is a nice touch.
I was under the impression that you were a US citizen, which facts are in doubt? It has been in the news.
Not sure what Phoodoo knows, I have been following the story. A. new version a virus appeared. What I don’t have a clue about whether is designed or not and the data to support the story.
Objective metrics would work. And a country’s variables .age of population , health system, economic resources, strategy adopted, density of population , effectiveness of leadership etc.
They had functional tests and different cultural experience with viral outbreaks than some other countries. But that was not the question, the question was who did worse. I say Brazil has done and is doing worse, though a case might be made that Trump starting political wankfests might make up the gap. Irresponsibility at the top can really hurt the effort to minimize the damage of the virus.
People travel from Europe to China , too. What is the point?
Looking at data, true.
I said Florida, Texas and Arizona are spiking as an example
Let’s see, give me a general idea what what constitutes spiking for you, levels of increase?
Why would you ever?
Is that the same NPR that reaches into my pocket and steals? WTF is wrong with you too? “Public” my ass. Like the BBC thieves. Haha.
No. Because “evolution” is being destroyed and you just have no defensible arguments. Haha.
Then I take it you’re not rejecting Breitbart and Infowars and Zero Hedge? Tripped yourself again, two left feet. Haha.
What? The voters need to know that Sleepy has Alzheimer ON TOP of being a retard, useless, and corrupt to the bone. If they still chose to vote for him, so be it, but don’t complain afterwards.
Dumb or hateful misdirection? The only statistic that matters is deaths/million and the US is far from “the worst” by that metric: https://virusncov.com/ Also, when you exclude the commies in NY, NJ, that fucked up big time with their “diversity” crap, the US is even better. Because let’s not forget the US is not a state, but a collection of states – each one deciding independently like Italy and Spain in the EU. And then of course there’s the very subjective classification and the international hub vs. backwater and also more or less free vs. the robot citizen.
Here’s the situation in the US: https://virusncov.com/covid-statistics/usa. Sort them by the same metric – the only one that matters – and who’s leading? None other than would-be-socialist-shitholes. Want to blame someone? Blame socialism and first of all blame the DeBalsio and Cuomo cretin duo.
newton,
Too much nonsense and bullshit. Waste of time.
The EU is the economic enemy of the US along with China. You’re just fraternizing with the enemy. Are you blind or just hateful? Didn’t they say they miss Obama? Now you know why. Haha.
We rule , Belgium drools.
Italy can leave the EU,
I am sure you have some good qualities .
Irrelevant to the virus situation. Btw, let’s see the UK pull it off first.
Nonlin.org,
Come on, are you really trying to tell me you think the US is only 100 times worse than China? A 1000 times worse than Ethiopia? Several thousand times bigger fuck-ups than Yemen?
You think only that worse?
It is relevant to the fundamental difference between the countries which make up the EU and the states that make up the US.
“Diversity crap”… Time to eliminate the whites? 🤔
Moved comments to guano
@ Nonlin
We have a thread called noyau where the rules other than spam, porn, advertising do not apply.
Do you doubt the all powerful Trump “
“The president of the United States calls the shots”
“When somebody’s the president of the United States, the authority is total,” he added.
States , as all things except “slippery” ramps , are subservient to the whims of Trump.
According to the Constitution, this is false. The EU is a confederation of sovereign nations (but with some federal characteristics), which is what the US had under the Articles of Confederation (1781-17879). The US is not a confederation of sovereign states because the federal government constrains how independent the states are permitted to be, hence they are not sovereign.
But if nonlin wants to pretend the Constitution doesn’t exist, that’s their business.
Um. There was a great deal of debate, some of it acrimonious, about exactly how much of their sovereignty the states would retain, and how much they would cede to the union, before the Constitution was ratified. The Constitution broadly speaking limits what the states can do, but states importantly retained independent police powers, education powers, slavery, taxation, voting, and most aspects of commerce. The limits were listed in the Bill of Rights, but the 10th Amendment basically says “if it ain’t listed here, it’s up to the states.”
What has followed is 250 years of gradual transfer of power from the states to the federal government. Much of this derives from Supreme Court decisions – especially the increasing economic authority which is essentially entirely federal by today. But even where states nominally retain their power, it’s been nibbled to death by ducks.
Perhaps most importantly is the transfer or flow of money between the federal government and the states. Most state budgets rely heavily on federal transfers, so while the states retain the power to, say, set speed limits, if they don’t follow federal guidelines the feds threaten to withhold transportation payments, without which the states would starve. This is one of countless examples where the threat to withhold funds obliges the states to do what the Constitution still says is the states’ business.
So the states today are much more sovereign in theory than they can afford to be in practice. And if the states force the issue and decline the funding, most often Congress will pass a law forcing the states into line, and the Supreme Court will find that this is within the power of Congress.
Boris Johnson unfortunately doesn’t read this blog!
newton,
Cut the BS.
Kantian Naturalist,
You too cut the legalistic BS. This is about actual decisions re. a virus, not about the law that no leftist ever respects.
False. It’s never one institution against the other. The left is weaponizing whatever institutions they happen to control at the time. Currently, Congress and the socialist states that first fucked up the virus response and now try to shut down the economy so Sleepy Creepy Joe has a chance in hell in November.
Even more recently, they “care” about black lives every election cycle: https://babylonbee.com/news/black-lives-predicted-to-matter-until-november. Go visit the socialist shitholes of Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, Philly, etc etc to see just how much they “care”. Haha.