Psi

Parapsychology, psi, ESP, auras, NDEs, anomalous cognition, psychic research. A load of woo! Nothing to see here!

Can we ignore the testimonies of those who claim to have had a near death experience, people who demonstrate blindfolded vision or who seem to have other psychic abilities?

Here and here, are videos about the work of Nicola Farmer, a woman who works with children and seemingly teaches them to see while blindfolded.

She’s either a heartless con merchant who uses children to fool the public or someone who sincerely believes she is enhancing their lives and what you see is genuine. What are your thoughts on this.

225 thoughts on “Psi

  1. Alan Fox:
    phoodoo: Often I can change how the dream is going during the dream if I want to , because I know its a dream.

    Alan Fox: Hmm. I’m just getting over a chesty cold and the best treatment seemed taking it easy while events ran their course. One thing I noticed was I’ve spent some time half-awake and, well, hard to describe, observing myself dreaming in the sense of feeling consciously aware of watching images unfold and change. Nothing scary or bizarre, quite mundane, computer screens, faces, other images. ETA and the ability to influence the images in a sort of emphasis way. “Those faces look like someone I know” – image of someone I know grows more distinct.

    Not experienced this before so I’m reassured it happens to others. Doesn’t make me suspect anything supernatural going on, though

    I don’t believe that these people who are able to “see” while blindfolded are engaging in anything supernatural. If anything it is a perfectly natural sense which we have lost through lack of use because we focus on our normal vision. It would take a great deal of effort for most of us to learn it.

    I remember when I was a kid my father was able to wiggle his ears and I tried to copy him but could never do it. I settled for learning to raise each eyebrow independently. Even that took some effort. The muscles involved had never been used so it took some effort of concentration to find them and exercise them so that I could use them at will.

    Here is a video of Vibravision being demonstrated to Dr. Jonathan Boster, OD, an Optometrist in West Valley City, Utah. He believed it was genuine.

    Why would anyone think that this is a supernatural ability?

  2. Alan Fox: Blimey! TIL:

    There are two well-known (though not to me, till today) phenomena, depending on whether you are transitioning to or from a sleeping state: hypnagogia and hypnopompia.

    I quite often experience sleep paralysis, although it hasn’t happened for a while now. I am fully aware but I have lost control of bodily movement, and I feel as though I am being invaded by beings who I cannot perceive but I can feel their presence. It was a scary experience the first time it happened, but I soon learned to just accept that there was nothing I could do about it but just let it run its course. It never lasts long.

  3. Alan Fox:
    CharlieM: What would be gained by testing the children? If they genuinely have these abilities then they have nothing to gain by being tested. If they are being tested in an attempt to discredit them then this will produce an atmosphere which will probably stifle their powers.

    Alan Fox: But are there “powers”? How will you know without testing? There’s been a lot of water under the bridge since Clever Hans.

    I think the company that promotes Vibravision is open to being scrutinized. They put themselves forward to compete in the TV program “Ameica’s Real Deal” and reached at least the quarter finals To sustain that company and attract investors they would need to be demonstrating genuine results.

  4. Alan Fox:
    CharlieM: I have no figures for participants then and now, have you?

    Alan Fox: No. I just this second looked at the website you linked to. I’d say the investment involved about ten minute’s work and maybe 100€ tops for a year’s domain name and host rental. All I can take from that is there’s a market. I can’t help wondering…

    But you can claim that it’s been languishing five years before looking for evidence of this being the case.

    Alan Fox: I’ll ask my clever friend, Hans

    What! You can speak to the dead?! 🙂 (a wink’s as good as a nod to a blind, or should I say, dead, horse). Still it’s better than flogging it. 🙂

  5. Fair Witness:
    CharlieM: What would be gained by testing the children?

    Fair Witness: To separate fact from fiction, honest people from charlatans, to uncover deception and self-deception.

    Is that not a noble goal?

    That all depends on the effect it has on the child being questioned.

    Fair Witness: You are the one who asked “Can we ignore the testimonies of those who claim….”

    I say yes, because testimony is lousy evidence. And videos can be staged, doctored, and selectively edited.

    And blind people can learn to intelligently manipulate objects that they are familiar with.

    Charlatans are a dime a dozen, and people with real psychic abilities seem nonexistent.

    If you already believe that genuine psychic abilities are non existent instead of allowing for the possibility that there may be a few genuine cases among all the con merchants and self-deceivers, doesn’t that cast doubt on your being a fair witness?

    Fair Witness: Yes, I would just leave them alone if they are not trying to defraud anyone. But if the “teacher” steps over that line, I would insist on testing the children.

    So-called psychic abilities that do not work under laboratory conditions can be dismissed as fakery.

    I would think it would be very difficult to set up laboratory conditions that are giving the subjects a fair chance, especially with children, when the frame of mind they are in is critical to the outcome.

  6. Alan Fox:
    CharlieM: One date doesn’t tell us much.

    Alan Fox: I’ve never heard of Nicola Farmer. What June, 2016 tells me is that Nicola Farmer has not become newsworthy in the five years since this video recording. Whether or not there is a real phenomenon, it is consequence-free.

    You rely on the media to report on everything significant? How do you know what consequences it is having on individuals all over the world?

  7. phoodoo: to Entropy,

    Yea, well another take on this would be, how could you be expected to see the synchronicity of the world, if you are convinced not to see the synchronicity of the world.

    In an interview Nate Zeleznick recounts an event which he termed “synchro destiny” which he considered to be a higher form of synchronicity. He had watched a video which featured blindfolded people doing amazing things. The next morning as he drove to work, he was stopped at a junction when he witnesses a guide dog causing the woman it was leading to walk into a pole. This inspired him to learn more about the people in the video. He and his brother managed to scrape enough money together to bring instructors over from Indonesia. They thought that this type of training would be of great benefit to blind people. And this is how “Vibravision” was conceived.

  8. Fair Witness: So-called psychic abilities that do not work under laboratory conditions can be dismissed as fakery.
    phoodoo: That’s not true at all.

    One horse pick, how hard could it be?

    And if they got the one random card right, you give them one million right? Yea, I didn’t think so.

    So, you’ve got the charlatan’s lame excuse, and the moving of the goalposts down pat. Good job.

  9. “Michael would use the Holman Prize to train for a triathlon, which he would complete using a non-visual technique called Vibravision that would enable him to compete without the aid of technology or a sighted companion.”

    The person they are writing about is Michael Armstrong.

    Michael Armstrong is a blind musician and adventurer who, as a highly qualified martial arts instructor in his own right, was taught by the Zeleznick brothers and endorses Vibravision and their project. He is an inspiration, not just to the visually impared but to everyone, He has climbed Mount KIlamanjaro and run a martial arts school without the benefit of eyesight.

    My name is Mike Armstrong and I have been totally blind for several years. I started working with this amazing organization about 2 1/2 years ago learning this incredible method. I have found all the trainers and students to have a extremely high level of integrity and very generous hearts! The training I have gone through has improved my awareness of my environment, makes travel easier and Makes basic life skills much easier. Vibravision has an incredible mission and I highly recommend it to anyone.

    Ther are other blind people and organizations who endorse this method, such as Marci Jensen from the deaf and blind school

  10. CharlieM: That all depends on the effect it has on the child being questioned.

    If you already believe that genuine psychic abilities are non existent instead of allowing for the possibility that there may be a few genuine cases among all the con merchants and self-deceivers, doesn’t that cast doubt on your being a fair witness?

    I would think it would be very difficult to set up laboratory conditions that are giving the subjects a fair chance, especially with children, when the frame of mind they are in is critical to the outcome.

    I am open to being convinced, but it requires a demonstration under conditions that cannot be gamed by charlatans.

    If we are talking about blind (or blindfolded) people learning to use other senses to navigate the world, that is a natural feat.

    If we are talking about seeing through opaque barriers, that would be a supernatural feat.

    Do not blur the lines between these two things.

    Place a small object in a small box with a tamper-proof seal, and give it to Ms. Farmer. She can give it to a child under whatever conditions she deems will make the child most comfortable and most able to perform their special ability.

    Do you believe that to be an unreasonable test?

  11. Fair Witness:
    CharlieM: That all depends on the effect it has on the child being questioned.

    If you already believe that genuine psychic abilities are non existent instead of allowing for the possibility that there may be a few genuine cases among all the con merchants and self-deceivers, doesn’t that cast doubt on your being a fair witness?

    I would think it would be very difficult to set up laboratory conditions that are giving the subjects a fair chance, especially with children, when the frame of mind they are in is critical to the outcome.

    Fair Witness: I am open to being convinced, but it requires a demonstration under conditions that cannot be gamed by charlatans.

    If we are talking about blind (or blindfolded) people learning to use other senses to navigate the world, that is a natural feat.

    If we are talking about seeing through opaque barriers, that would be a supernatural feat.

    Do not blur the lines between these two things.

    I don’t think any of these people are claiming that those doing this are using their eyes to see through opaque barriers. The blindfolds prevent any light reaching the eyes. Any light stimulus reaching the eyes would be a distraction which could possibly interfere with the way they become aware of the object.

    I think the people at Vibravision attribute the ability to some form of vibration being sensed. And there is a precedence within animal life. Bats, dolphins, and many other animals perceive the world by sending and receiving vibrating signals.

    Fair Witness: Place a small object in a small box with a tamper-proof seal, and give it to Ms. Farmer. She can give it to a child under whatever conditions she deems will make the child most comfortable and most able to perform their special ability.

    Do you believe that to be an unreasonable test?

    No. But what would you be testing by doing this? Think of bats again. If a bat cannot locate a moth because it is concealed in a cardboard box, does this tell us that it cannot echolocate?

    If someone was blindfolded in such a way that it would be impossible for them to see out of, or a blind person without any eyes, were to be shown a box with an object inside it and asked to describe what they perceive, that would be a better test. Ask them what had been placed in front of them and the likely answer would be, a box. To know that it was a box would be a satisfactory demonstration. Knowing what was inside the box would be a higher level of perception.

    From what I can tell blindfolded perception seems to be a skill that takes effort and its acquisition is a gradual process.

    Have you watched any of the “Vibravision” videos?

  12. CharlieM: From what I can tell blindfolded perception seems to be a skill that takes effort and its acquisition is a gradual process.

    Have you watched any of the “Vibravision” videos?

    Fucks sake, put something in a cardboard box and get them to tell you what it was. It costs nothing. It takes no time. It’ll change the world.

    So it sounds exactly what you are after at no cost and minimum effort. Odd that it has not happened already.

  13. CharlieM: If someone was blindfolded in such a way that it would be impossible for them to see out of, or a blind person without any eyes, were to be shown a box with an object inside it and asked to describe what they perceive, that would be a better test. Ask them what had been placed in front of them and the likely answer would be, a box. To know that it was a box would be a satisfactory demonstration. Knowing what was inside the box would be a higher level of perception.

    Suggest that to then then. Use differently shaped boxes. Whatever.

    But whatever you do to “test” them be aware that phoodoo will never ever accept your test as valid. To him we either take their claims on face value or we are liars.

  14. OMagain:
    CharlieM: From what I can tell blindfolded perception seems to be a skill that takes effort and its acquisition is a gradual process.

    Have you watched any of the “Vibravision” videos?

    OMagain: Fucks sake, put something in a cardboard box and get them to tell you what it was. It costs nothing. It takes no time. It’ll change the world.

    So it sounds exactly what you are after at no cost and minimum effort. Odd that it has not happened already.

    You may have read what I said in my previous comment, but did you understand any of what I was saying?

    There is a video of Michael Armstrong who is totally blind pitching to win the Holman Prize in 2018, so that he can continue training in “Vibravision”. It’s only a minute and a half long if you care to watch it.

    At the time he did this video he had already had 7 months training and had some positive results. He wants to continue training but it takes time, effort and money.

    What would the cardboard box stunt prove? That they don’t have x-ray vision? I haven’t heard any of them claiming to have x-ray vision.

  15. CharlieM: But what would you be testing by doing this?

    We’d be testing Charlie’s sincerity whenever he claims to endorse empirical research.

  16. OMagain:
    CharlieM: If someone was blindfolded in such a way that it would be impossible for them to see out of, or a blind person without any eyes, were to be shown a box with an object inside it and asked to describe what they perceive, that would be a better test. Ask them what had been placed in front of them and the likely answer would be, a box. To know that it was a box would be a satisfactory demonstration. Knowing what was inside the box would be a higher level of perception.

    OMagain: Suggest that to then then. Use differently shaped boxes. Whatever.

    But whatever you do to “test” them be aware that phoodoo will never ever accept your test as valid. To him we either take their claims on face value or we are liars.

    I have never contacted any of these people and I haven’t thought about doing so. I have no intention to test them.

    I’m not about to ask them to do something that won’t be very informative just to satisfy my own curiosity. If what they are doing is really worthwhile and they can overcome prevailing prejudices then more people will begin to accept it.

    The “Vibravision” team claim that their primary inspiration is to help blind people to acquire this skill. If that is the case then it will be taken up by more and more people through the examples set by others such as Michael Armstrong, or Marci Jensen and not by any testing under laboratory conditions.

  17. Corneel:
    CharlieM: But what would you be testing by doing this?

    We’d be testing Charlie’s sincerity whenever he claims to endorse empirical research

    Would you say Michael Armstrong was doing empirical research when he enrolled in the course?

    I’m not against them doing the “cardboard box test”, but I don’t see what it will achieve. Nobody is claiming that they can see through the blindfold.

  18. CharlieM: I’m not against them doing the “cardboard box test”, but I don’t see what it will achieve. Nobody is claiming that they can see through the blindfold.

    Do you want to know how the children manage to read with a blindfold on or do you savour the mystery?

    If the former, how do you reckon this could possibly be achieved? Perhaps we can find out by thinking real hard about it?

  19. Corneel:
    CharlieM: I’m not against them doing the “cardboard box test”, but I don’t see what it will achieve. Nobody is claiming that they can see through the blindfold.

    Corneel: Do you want to know how the children manage to read with a blindfold on or do you savour the mystery?

    If the former, how do you reckon this could possibly be achieved? Perhaps we can find out by thinking real hard about it?

    Of course I am curious to know. But how would the “cardboard box test” go any way to solving the question of how they do what they do?

  20. CharlieM: But how would the “cardboard box test” go any way to solving the question of how they do what they do?

    That’s where I need your help. Me, I have no clue what they are supposed to be doing whereas you seem to know what can and cannot be tested. If I am still following, the claim seems to be that they are using a “third eye” (which is invisible) that enables the bearer to see objects that would normally be visible from their vantage point without actually using their default set of eyes, yes?

    But for instance, I’d like to know whether they need light at all. This is something we could easily test, no?

  21. Corneel:
    CharlieM: But how would the “cardboard box test” go any way to solving the question of how they do what they do?

    Corneel: That’s where I need your help. Me, I have no clue what they are supposed to be doing whereas you seem to know what can and cannot be tested. If I am still following, the claim seems to be that they are using a “third eye” (which is invisible) that enables the bearer to see objects that would be normally be visible from their vantage point without actually using their default set of eyes, yes?

    We can all see what they are supposed to be doing. Perceiving what is in front of them without the aid of their eyes. Any claims about the third eye may be what some people believe but I don’t think they have any evidence which demonstrates this. Dave, the man with the Mohican cut, who appears to be the main star of the “Vibravision” project, seems to sense some sort of energy vibration through his fingers. I would say it’s as if the whole person becomes a sense organ. But who knows?

    Corneel: But for instance, I’d like to know whether they need light at all. This is something we could easily test, no?

    I’ll leave this sort of testing to those that are involved. I don’t have access to any of the practitioners of this supposed skill.

    I’m happy to wait and see how things progress. I have looked at the credentials of some of the professionals who checked the “Vibravision” people in action and they seem genuine to me.

  22. I don’t think there is any point in any official testing of how they do it until they can convince the scientific establishment that they genuinely can do it.

  23. CharlieM,

    Fair Witness doesn’t want a cardboard test. They just want to be able to confirm their biased belief that no non-material reality could possibly exist. If someone isn’t claiming they can se a random object in a cardboard box whenever they want, why would a test to see if someone can see a random object in a cardboard box be relevant whatsoever?

    Its like if someone claims they have made a perfect bullseye with a .22 rifle at a 50 yard target before. Then a guy called Fair Witness says, “Oh, yea, prove it, here is a rock, see if you can throw it over this brick wall I made and into a fishbowl. That shouldn’t be that hard, right? Oh, and even if you do do it one time, that still doesn’t prove you ever shot a bullseye! I mean, maybe you cheated”

    You know what I am going to do, I am going to prove that NO ONE can shoot a perfect bullseye from 50 yards, ever. In fact, I will give ANYONE a million dollars if they can prove they can!

    And here’s the rules: I decide what gun you use. I decide what bulleye you use. I decide when and where. I decide if it counts. You have to apply first and I have to accept if you are worthy to try. You have to pay for multiple prior tests proving you can shoot a rifle at a bullseye. You have to provide all the data which shows you can do it. You have to wait three years for me to decide if I will let you try. And frankly, I am under no obligation to read any of your emails asking if you can prove it.

    So see, its impossible!! Because nobody has won the million dollars yet. Why wouldn’t someone want to win in a million dollars, if they really could??

  24. CharlieM: I’ll leave this sort of testing to those that are involved. I don’t have access to any of the practitioners of this supposed skill.

    Here is my prediction for what will happen to this amazing gift of those children in that video: Those that are involved will NOT be testing it NOR will they present it to the “scientific establishment” for examination. My guess is that they just will be cranking out more Youtube video’s, possibly with sceptical crew members in that get converted on the show. I really loved that bit.

    Because, like you, they are not really interested in the physics. They just like the story.

  25. phoodoo,

    You write such complete nonsense in such an entertaining way that I don’t understand why you are not paid for your output!

  26. http://warkon.blogspot.com/2010/07/merpati-putih-and-james-randi-challenge.html

    Vibravision Test Results Report
    Summary:
    Test failed to achieve higher than random chance.
    Of a total of 19 trials there were three correct responses.
    There were 6 choices per trial.
    The statistically expected response rate was 19/6 = 3.2.
    This is in exact agreement with the results.

    http://nowscape.com/vibra/Nate_Correspondence.htm
    http://www.nowscape.com/vibra/Test_Results.htm

    They had a litany of reasons why they failed with the supplied blindfolds rather then their own where they got 100% success rate.

    https://sec.report/Document/0001666102-20-000012/

    They pull in around $24k a year whereas of course the training is “free” in India.

    But, of course, phoodoo is still a believer. No test can be performed fairly to validate such claims in his eyes, eh Charlie?

  27. Alan Fox: You write such complete nonsense in such an entertaining way that I don’t understand why you are not paid for your output!

    Perhaps phoodoo could think of a valid way to test the claims that the blind can be taught to see?

  28. OMagain,

    Interesting that Adam Brandley, Founder and CEO of America’s Real Deal, is the third equity partner in Vibravision.
    Nicola Farmer has quite the cottage industry going too.

  29. Corneel: But for instance, I’d like to know whether they need light at all. This is something we could easily test, no?

    .
    From the University of Rochester

    Find a space with total darkness and slowly move your hand from side to side in front of your face. What do you see?
    If the answer is a shadowy shape moving past, you are probably not imagining things. With the help of computerized eye trackers, a new cognitive science study finds that at least 50 percent of people can see the movement of their own hand even in the absence of all light..
    The study seems to confirm anecdotal reports that spelunkers in lightless caves often are able to see their hands. In other words, the “spelunker illusion,” as one blogger dubbed it, is likely not an illusion after all.

    To save anyone having to look it up “spelunkers” are people who explore underground places such as dark caves and tunnels.

    Here is a video from the link.

    Do you believe this report? How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

  30. phoodoo: Its like if someone claims they have made a perfect bullseye with a .22 rifle at a 50 yard target before. Then a guy called Fair Witness says, “Oh, yea, prove it, here is a rock, see if you can throw it over this brick wall I made and into a fishbowl. That shouldn’t be that hard, right? Oh, and even if you do do it one time, that still doesn’t prove you ever shot a bullseye! I mean, maybe you cheated”

    Not exactly , more like someone claiming since they used an immaterial rifle to shoot an immaterial bullet which created an immaterial bullseye, it is unfair to demonstrate the same with a physical rifle.

  31. CharlieM: How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

    Without following any of your links, I would hazard a guess it is an illusion guided by proprioception. What do you think?

    ETA: … and after following the link, I learned the researchers are thinking along the same lines. Nothing wrong with my intuition.

  32. Corneel: Without following any of your links, I would hazard a guess it is an illusion guided by proprioception. What do you think?

    “ For most people, this ability to see self-motion in darkness probably is learned, the authors conclude. “We get such reliable exposure to the sight of our own hand moving that our brains learn to predict the expected moving image even without actual visual input,” says Dieter.”

  33. CharlieM: Do you believe this report? How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

    I know where my hands are light or dark. I can even imagine them with my eyes closed doing things and when I open my eyes they are in the right place!

    WOW!

    Such a low bar you have.

  34. CharlieM: Do you believe this report? How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

    Do you believe the reports of Vibravision failing their scientific test very badly?

  35. Omagain:
    Vibravision Test Results Report….

    …They had a litany of reasons why they failed with the supplied blindfolds rather then their own where they got 100% success rate.

    Sweet.

    I did not know that Randi had already tested this claim.

    I imagine anyone who whines about being required to use a proper blindfold would whine about the validity of a cardboard box test as well.

    Just like phoodoo does.

  36. DNA_Jock: But you cannot track someone else’s hand.
    So yes, it’s about proprioception, just like Merpati Putih.

    From the Rochester article

    And very few subjects saw motion when the experimenter waved his hand, underscoring the importance of self-motion in this visual experience.

    I thought you were proficient at mathematics, yes? But, very few=0 ? Do you think that’s a legitimate equation? 🙂

  37. Corneel:
    CharlieM: I’ll leave this sort of testing to those that are involved. I don’t have access to any of the practitioners of this supposed skill.

    Corneel: Here is my prediction for what will happen to this amazing gift of those children in that video: Those that are involved will NOT be testing it NOR will they present it to the “scientific establishment” for examination. My guess is that they just will be cranking out more Youtube video’s, possibly with sceptical crew members in that get converted on the show. I really loved that bit.

    Because, like you, they are not really interested in the physics. They just like the story.

    What makes you think I’m not interested in the physics? But that is just one aspect, perception involves much more than physics alone.

  38. CharlieM: I thought you were proficient at mathematics, yes? But, very few=0 ? Do you think that’s a legitimate equation?

    “Very few” may well equal “not above random” or “auditory leakage”. You might want to ease up on the condescension, and, if you are claiming that it is “third eye vision” rather than simple synesthesia, provide your explanation for why it should matter at all whose hand it is.
    I have tried to explain to you previously that some degree of cross-talk between the different sense modalities is the norm, that what we visually “perceive” is a confection created by our brains, and the people that we call “synesthetes” are merely outliers along a continuum. Your ongoing ignorance supports Corneel’s observation that you are not interested in the physics.
    You just like the story.

  39. OMagain:

    http://warkon.blogspot.com/2010/07/merpati-putih-and-james-randi-challenge.html

    “Vibravision Test Results Report
    Summary:
    Test failed to achieve higher than random chance.
    Of a total of 19 trials there were three correct responses.
    There were 6 choices per trial.
    The statistically expected response rate was 19/6 = 3.2.
    This is in exact agreement with the results.”

    http://nowscape.com/vibra/Nate_Correspondence.htm
    http://www.nowscape.com/vibra/Test_Results.htm

    They had a litany of reasons why they failed with the supplied blindfolds rather then their own where they got 100% success rate.

    https://sec.report/Document/0001666102-20-000012/

    They pull in around $24k a year whereas of course the training is “free” in India.

    But, of course, phoodoo is still a believer. No test can be performed fairly to validate such claims in his eyes, eh Charlie?

    I don’t believe the atmosphere and the procedures required in the Randi trial were conducive to achieving a fair performance. I can’t see how they were expected to perform with all the distractions and stipulations made at short notice.

    I’m sure they learned from the experience and have been, and continue to be, much more wary of partaking in experiments as biased.as that one.

  40. DNA_Jock:
    to OMagain,

    DNA_Jock: Interesting that Adam Brandley, Founder and CEO of America’s Real Deal, is the third equity partner in Vibravision.

    So he had enough confidence in them to invest in spite of the Randi trial. And also for them to be scrutinized while competing in “America’s Real Deal”.

    DNA_Jock: Nicola Farmer has quite the cottage industry going too.

    And you’re sure that her main interest is in making money and not for the love of the children?

  41. CharlieM: I don’t believe the atmosphere and the procedures required in the Randi trial were conducive to achieving a fair performance. I can’t see how they were expected to perform with all the distractions and stipulations made at short notice.

    How surprising.

    CharlieM: I’m sure they learned from the experience and have been, and continue to be, much more wary of partaking in experiments as biased.as that one.

    In what sense was it biased? Be specific.

  42. Corneel:
    CharlieM: How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

    Corneel: Without following any of your links, I would hazard a guess it is an illusion guided by proprioception. What do you think?

    ETA: … and after following the link, I learned the researchers are thinking along the same lines. Nothing wrong with my intuition

    Did you actually read the link? They write:

    The study seems to confirm anecdotal reports that spelunkers in lightless caves often are able to see their hands. In other words, the “spelunker illusion,” as one blogger dubbed it, is likely not an illusion after all.

    The same type of phenomenon is “likely not an illusion after all”!

  43. CharlieM: So he had enough confidence in them to invest in spite of the Randi trial. And also for them to be scrutinized while competing in “America’s Real Deal”.

    It’s entertainment!

    Zeleznick received SEC approval to sell shares of Vibravision ® LLC on America’s Real Deal TV show, to reach upwards of 10 million viewers.

    They are trying to make money! They have no product nor evidence it works at any level and yet they are trying to sell shares!

    Look I know you want to see the best in people but these money grubbing bastards don’t deserve a moments attention except to debunk them.

    Ultimately, he said, they can read and draw without using Braille.

    https://www.deseret.com/platform/amp/1999/9/4/19464034/blind-who-see-intrigue-their-audience-br-demonstration-of-martial-art-is-a-little-eerie

    That was said over 20 years ago. Now, in all that time I suspect an actual blind person who can read without Braille would have made the news in all that time.

    Find them! Find a single person who has achieved that!

    Patti Ehle, a legally blind Ogden resident (she has no peripheral vision and sees out of one eye) who attended at Glidden’s request, came away intrigued but not necessarily a believer.

    “When I watch this I think these people have practiced really hard,” she said. “I don’t mean to write them off. They know something that I don’t know or don’t understand.”

    It seems the legally blind have better vision then CharlieM….

  44. CharlieM: The same type of phenomenon is “likely not an illusion after all”!

    Yes, it’s not an illusion because it’s real! It happens. It’s just not “seeing” at any level, it’s an awareness of your body location that produces a “visual” representation. There’s nothing “supernatrual” going on.

    DNA_Jock: “Very few” may well equal “not above random” or “auditory leakage”. You might want to ease up on the condescension, and, if you are claiming that it is “third eye vision” rather than simple synesthesia, provide your explanation for why it should matter at all whose hand it is.
    I have tried to explain to you previously that some degree of cross-talk between the different sense modalities is the norm, that what we visually “perceive” is a confection created by our brains, and the people that we call “synesthetes” are merely outliers along a continuum. Your ongoing ignorance supports Corneel’s observation that you are not interested in the physics.
    You just like the story.

    Can’t you read Charlie?

    Fucks sake!

  45. STEP 3

    Next, creating a 3-D playback of the EEG playback model to analyze the brainwave voxels, 5mm x 5mm x 5mm cubes in the brain. The video playback of the brain allows for unique analysis of the brainwave activity in different areas of the brain, in different frequency ranges under different conditions makes it ready for the neuroscience interpretation of brainwave activity. From this analysis protocols can be created so that the brain of an individual can be trained to perform the functions accurately.

    STEP 4

    Once analysis has been completed, protocols for training the individual’s brain seeking to utilize Vibravision ® techniques and reaching higher states of consciousness are developed and are ready for teaching.

    The Vibravision Foundation plans on increased research into the Vibravision ability with other neuroscience and vision specialists in the near future so that this can be not only be best understood, but replicated with the highest degree of efficacy.

    That’s apparently how they do what they do. So that all sounds very “scientific”. So who has reached these higher levels and what powers can they now demonstrate?

    Oh, of course, we can’t ask them to demonstrate their “powers” in any kind of controlled manner. Oh no. We just have to take it on faith that they are really doing it because there’s no real way to actually test them and they can go on their merry way making their un-testable claims and banking all that $.

    That you support these people is despicable. I imagine there were excited people out there thinking they could regain some sight and have been left out of pocket and bitterly disappointed.

  46. If we had such powers evolution would have leveraged those instead of costly and easily damaged eyes. Case closed!

  47. OMagain:
    CharlieM: Do you believe this report? How is this way of “seeing” possible in the total absence of light?

    OMagain: I know where my hands are light or dark. I can even imagine them with my eyes closed doing things and when I open my eyes they are in the right place!

    But do you honestly see an image as they represent here? Or do you have a very good idea of its position but see nothing until you open your eyes?

    OMagain: WOW!

    Such a low bar you have.

    Yes, I’m setting it for limbo dancers. 🙂

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