This post is long overdue.
One doesn’t have to look far to find examples of moral outrage aimed towards theists in general and Christians in particular here at The Skeptical Zone.
Judgmentalism, oddly enough, is prevalent. A pungent odor of opprobrium frequently wafts its way forth from the atheist trenches, and it stinks.
Are we all moral realists after all? Do we all now agree on the existence of objective moral values? If so, what are they and what makes them objective?
As for you moral relativists, are there any of you left? Why ought anyone (including especially Erik, Gregory, myself, fifth, William) be subject to the vagaries of what you moral relativists think others ought to be doing or ought not be doing?
Such opprobrium. Based on what, exactly?
If you are going to claim that we have some moral obligation towards you, you really ought to support that claim or retract it.
After all, that’s the intellectually honest thing to do.
Fifth’s premise here is erroneous. I don’t need to “know stuff” to make an argument about something. I only need “I’m hungry.”
Revelation
Expect an adorable genocide in your future.
Glen Davidson
Fmm doesn’t have faith in his presuppositions, he knows they are true because the presupposition revealed the presupposition is true to him. In fact the presupposition revealed what to presuppose, thus rendering the presupposition redundant I suppose.
A presuppositionist expressed this belief
That presupposing a loving god was such a relief
Yet he couldn’t find his hat
So instead he wore a cat
Which the presupposed god thought not so chic
Or even the genocide of everyone you personally like, since that too must be in accordance with everything coming from god which is good by definition.
Judas with his kiss, the Temple Guards of the Sanhedrin, Caiaphus, Pilate, the Roman soldiers — all of these men are surely in heaven with god as a reward for their faithful service to god’s Earthly mission of Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. If no arrest, no trial, no death … then no miracle and no salvation.
How can any christian possibly be outraged at Judas or the Jews?
They all were made by god, and since god is all good, and cannot make anything not good (by definition) then therefore their very existence is good (being from god) and as well, their every action is necessary for god’s good plan for humanity’s redemption, and therefore they are doubly good. Saints, no doubt!
Interesting framing, the lack of belief in something is not the same as refusing to believe , it may just be the poor quality of the pro arguments.
In my worldview an omnipotent being can do by definition anything logically possible, the original question was” is possible for an omnipotent God to say something in such a way that I can know that the message is from him?”
No, just because something is possible does not mean occurred. Knowledge would require faith and would be provisional.
Though if revelation provided the powerball winning numbers I would refuse to disbelieve.
Fmm to Robin:
You can’t get actual knowledge from a hypothetical God.
Then one must believe before revelation not as a result of it.
Funny that, no?
I’m beginning to think that it’s impossible for Fifth to post any words without being ironic. I wonder if that phenomenon is really some some obscure, yet profound truth from his god…
Hey! Yeah…that’s right!
Where’s Phoodoo? Maybe he can explain why we aren’t all doing absolutely nothing given that – according to Fifth’s logic – we are in a world that is all good!
Apparently you can get knowledge from an imaginary god.
1) I did tentatively dismiss all the claims of all non-christian religious works did you miss it? I did so based on revelation.
2) I did substantiate why my God hold’s truth while other deities do not. ie he is God and they are not.
If you want a more specific answer I need to to pick a deity so we can compare
If God does not exist you have no “reason” whatsoever. In fact all reasoning would be impossible. It’s the Christian God or absurdity.
If you disagree tell me how you know
They can’t all be almighty. Who would win in an arm wrestle match?
If they all claim to be almighty we can say definitively all most all of them are in error
So are you postulating Narayana as your deity of choice? How exactly does he differ from Yahweh?
peace
1) How exactly do you know this?
2) Be spesific. How do you know that “I’m hungry” is not a presupposition
peace
how do you know this? Is this assertion based on an empirical argument?
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
You keep making this claim but never supporting it. Until you do it is effectively content free.
Faith is not the reason I hold to my presuppositions.
Faith is simply the confidence I have in the faithful God who reveals himself.
On the other hand since God exists I “have” knowledge and all the things that go with it.
If it weren’t for the obsession of folks on your side we would have already done so
peace
It would be better to reserve the use of the word valid to the argument.
That is not my claim at all.
Morals can come from anywhere.
Objectively good moral opinion can only come from an omniscient God who is good
peace
No one
Is it impossible for a being to make a bad moral choice with out creating something?
How do you know this?
peace
how do you know this?
peace
I’m not. I think that people who blame Jews for the death of Christ are ignorant.
You don’t have to believe but God has to actually exist before he can reveal stuff to you.
peace
how do you know this?
hint the answer is in the question
peace
It (like everything) depends on your perspective.
peace
right they need to read their Bible
quote:
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:10)
end quote:
peace
Well, that’s good to hear, and not surprising – you’re almost always better than your co-religionists.
Too bad you and the other decent theists have so little influence over the christian demagogues and rabble.
I think a good argument could be made for an ironic God.
Confidence? Sounds subjective.
fifthmonarchyman,
Observation. Empirical evidence. You demonstrably keep making this claim and demonstrably never support it.
Perhaps they have been revealed to
It is.
Faith is my subjective response to God’s faithfulness. Faith is a gift from God but it’s something I subjectively feel
peace
You know how they say that time heals all wounds? I wonder if time exposes all idiocies.
We can hope. 🙂
Wasn’t Jesus supposed to return in 1987?
LOL! ‘my god told me that all those non-christian gods are fake! So you know…I know the truth…because…um…my god told me…because he’s not fake!’ Nothing absurd about that…LOL!
ROTFLMAO! Yet, you can’t seem to demonstrate my deity isn’t God…or that yours is. Funny that!
Ehhh…’fraid my deities already fucked your god, so there’s really nothing to compare…
Says you. Ooooo! I’m scared…not. My gods all say your “god” not only does not exist, but that you are full of nothing but horse hockey and nonsense. Seems the evidence indicates they’re right too. And oddly, your “god” has got no retort against their accusations. One dead god you got there…
See above. But do feel free to actually demonstrate where all my gods are wrong. Oh…and unless they all tell me you’ve succeeded, I’ll know you’re still full of BS.
Fehh…it would be a tie…
Maybe, but you can’t seem to prove which one is lying. Therefore I must assume that at least one of them is telling the truth since the odds are in their favor. I mean, it is…like…4000 deities to your one mythical one. I don’t have much of a choice but to go with the probability of one that is real…
Oh please Fifth…you’re going to have to do better than that. For example, whether I postulate Narayana is “my” deity is irrelevant; unless you can show that your puny deity is better, then it’s irrelevant what I actually believe.
What’s this “know” you are referring to? I can’t process that. “I’m hungry” requires no pre-cognition. It is just a label for a given state compared to another state.
That question is meaningless. What is this “presupposition” of which you speak? I can only process states of sensory perception.
“Welcome to your future in robotics!” LOL!
Of course…humans do that all the time!
Observation. LOL!
What is this “know” of which you speak? I only react to stimuli…
Nope…sorry. Not according to your previous claims. Where’s Phoodo? I what to know why everyone isn’t just lying on the ground.
Well, fortunately for you, your posting here at TSZ has no relationship to your world view.
I can’t show you where Yahweh is better unless you tell me how your deity is different than Yahweh.
Simply saying that you God is better is not enough you have to say how it’s different.
If your God is the same as Yahweh then your God is Yahweh and I win. So how is your chosen deity different than the Christin God?
I guess you could postulate that a God who is exactly like the Christian God and who you don’t believe in could reveal stuff to you.
But if you did so you would just be agreeing with me
😉
If you postulate a God who is not exactly like the Christian God and who you don’t believe in could reveal stuff to you, you need to explain how he is different and why you think he is capable of revealing stuff but don’t think he is worthy of your acceptance.
peace
Exactly what state of sensory perception lead you to this conclusion?
IOW how do you know this?
peace
It’s not about you and you can’t always get what you want.
peace
Misunderstood. Do you hear an actual voice or is it like a clarity?
keiths decides what is moral based on what he thinks matters. What he thinks matters becomes a moral issue by virtue of what keiths thinks about it.
Subjective keiths.
Subjective keiths. He thinks others ought not be cruel to animals because it’s what he thinks.
I’m not sure why you would need to ask
The method God uses for the most part is the same for you as for me.
how do you know stuff?
peace
So? I’m willing to accept that your projection onto others of your own subjective beliefs is irrational. Why aren’t you?
Why is what you personally and subjectively believe about how animals ought to be treated binding on anyone but you?
God’s faithfulness to what or whom?
To me to his church to you to the universe and ultimately to himself
peace
Which is?
Provisionally
Is that a provisional answer?
peace