It’s hard to avoid the religious aspect of the current war, and its roots in thousand-year disputes over how best to suck up to the deity at the heart of it all. The deity who, for a chuckle, put vast quantities of petroleum under the Middle Eastern lands, added geographical pinch points and political instability, and seeded three fightin’ religions that are basically fairly minor variations on each other. What a guy!
When Pete Hegseth has Crusader symbology tattooed on his pecs (though I thought at first it was a German Iron Cross) and Deus Vult on his arm; when Trump hosts those (fucking weird) performative anointing sessions in the Oval Office, I wonder what non-mad Christians – and Jews – make of all this.
I always understood Christianity to be a peaceful, neighbourly religion. Thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbour, that sort of thing. “The religion of peace” is the eye-rolling sneer directed at Muslims following some atrocity. We’re the good guys. But this administration is exulting in – essentially – state-sponsored, religiously-inspired, terrorism.
Don’t get me wrong; Islam has a massive image problem. When some dickhead blows himself up on a bus or at a pop concert, I share the revulsion of my in-group. They do far more harm than good to their cause. I don’t understand the brutality. But Muslims are no more responsible for these actions than the Archbishop of Canterbury is responsible for Pete Hegseth.
These religions are, as I say, variations on a theme. Their holy books contain similar moral strictures, similarly ignored by fanatics, along with some dubiously contradictory aggression and brutality. They pick consecutive days to represent God’s Seventh Day Off, they all start with Adam and Eve. Mary appears seventy times in the Quran. They all have weird dietary restrictions (God looks favourably on people who make life unnecessarily hard for themselves). But those guys over there – they’ve got it wrong. Though entered largely by accident of birth. my religion is the right one. What a stroke of luck.
Muslim Medics at a hospital in Barrow, half an hour down the road, got together and initiated a faith centre in nearby Dalton. I can hear the howls from here. “We’re a Christian country!” from people who only see the inside of a church at weddings and funerals. Numerous protests have taken place, with more to come as right-wing figures attach themselves. People have suddenly developed an interest in the minutiae of planning regulations, and building aesthetics. Local papers looking for a bit of online engagement post ‘what do you think?” clickbait as commenters hilariously suggest they will go down and wave bacon sandwiches, or smear pig shit on the doors (forgetting that Jews, with whom we are temporarily allied, also reject pork products). Disappointingly, several friends have indicated, by ‘like’, support for the campaign. The hospital, meanwhile, is struggling to recruit and retain staff, and closing departments. A place of worship would not hurt recruitment, but the hatred being poured out might. I trust protestors will enjoy, or at least survive, the trip to Preston to sort out their bacon-clogged arteries.
keiths,
Again you use the word lie so commonly it has become devoid of meaning.
So, you don’t know what a lie is anymore. You are unable to call someone posting pics of himself as Jesus for what it is. You are unable to call someone kidnapping and killing heads of other countries and pirating the oceans for what it is.
Well, no worries. This only makes you as insane and stupid as Trump. And you have an advantage – you are not president. This makes you less dangerous and you can be taken less seriously. Good for you!
Erik,
I know a lie involves a misstatement and intent. You have made many unsupported claims here as you were not able the prove intent.
Maybe when your arguing a case the facts don’t support then manipulation is a persuasive tactic to some.
colewd:
keiths:
colewd:
We have frequently used the word ‘you’ in this conversation. Has it become devoid of meaning? Frequency of use is irrelevant.
I use ‘lie’ the same way you do. If someone makes a statement they know is false, with intent to deceive, then they are lying. Trump was clearly lying about the image.
Again, for the record: Do you think he was being honest when he said “I thought it was me as a doctor”? Do you think your Dear Leader is so addled, so mentally incompetent, that he can look at a man wearing a robe and stole, with light shining from his hand as he places it on the forehead of a sick man, and think “that’s a doctor”?
Those are your choices: addled or lying. Or you can refuse to answer, thus confirming what everyone has already figured out: you know he’s lying, but you’re afraid to say so.
You got that wrong in at least three ways. First, you have not seen a single unsupported claim from me. Prove it, or else! You got nothing.
Second, you have seen many unsupported claims from Trump. You call them “hyperbolic language” and you think this makes it okay. This is cultist hypocrisy you have there.
Third, intent is irrelevant. A lie is a false statement knowing it is false. When you add intent to deceive to it, it becomes deception and the one who does it is a fraudster, a con man. Trump is that too, of course, but you refuse to see even simple lies because you are a cultist brainwashed idiot.
colewd always goes for the third option: he lies about it. He is all in lying for his Fuehrer.
Erik,
Can you support this claim?
keiths,
Why do you think it is a fact that here was clearly lying?
Erik:
Intent matters, because otherwise an actor would be lying when reciting a line that was false, as would a person who was sarcastically saying “Good job!” to someone who had just messed up. They say it knowing that it’s false, but they aren’t trying to deceive anyone. It isn’t a lie.
colewd:
Because not even Trump is stupid enough to look at that image and think he was being depicted as a doctor. Do you think he’s that stupid?
Can *you* support this claim or any other of your claims? Thus far zero.
And you are not taking back any of your well-demonstrated lies either, be it about tariffs, economy, gas prices, about how many wars Trump stopped, anything. You’re a brainwashed cultist. You come here to defend the lies of your Fuehrer.
They are acting, you know. It is as important to know what acting is as it is to know what lying is.
Erik:
Exactly. They’re acting, and the audience knows that they’re acting, and the actor knows that the audience knows that they’re acting. They aren’t trying to deceive the audience. Therefore it isn’t a lie, even though it’s a false statement uttered knowingly.
Ditto for the sarcastic “Good job!” remark. The speaker knows that the recipient will know that the statement is intentionally false. No one is deceived, and no one intends to deceive. It isn’t a lie.
Erik,
Bald assertions do not supported arguments.
keiths,
Opinion does not support a fact. You should know this at this point.
colewd:
Correct, which is why I rely on evidence instead. The evidence shows that Trump is lying.
Let’s reason our way through this.
1. The image does not depict Trump as a doctor. Ask the nearest third-grader, and they will confirm. It’s obvious.
2. Trump says it depicts him as a doctor. That is false.
3. Trump is making that false statement either
a) knowing it’s false, with intent to deceive; or
b) believing it is true.
4. If (a), then Trump is lying. If (b), then he is unable to do something that is effortless for even a below-average third grader.
5. Trump has spent a lifetime watching TV. It’s one of his favorite activities, along with golf. He has also been to the doctor many times, including to get the doctor to falsely certify bone spurs so that Trump could avoid the draft, and also to take repeated cognitive tests since the doctors are apparently worried that he suffers from dementia, given the symptoms I’ve pointed out in the “Trump and mental illness” thread.
6. Trump has therefore seen many times what doctors wear. Just like the rest of us, including the aforementioned third grader.
7. Between a lifetime of TV, which is full of shows depicting doctors, and many visits to doctors, including at Walter Reed, Trump has been exposed again and again to the clothing that doctors wear.
8. The two possibilities are
a) Trump is lying, or
b) Trump is mentally incompetent.
9. I acknowledge that Trump is stupid and a very slow learner, and also that he is showing clear symptoms of dementia, but I believe that through a lifetime of exposure, he remembers that doctors don’t wear robes and stoles and that light doesn’t emanate from their hands.
10. I therefore conclude that he is lying. Any rational person would reach the same conclusion. Trump doesn’t actually believe that the image depicts him as a doctor.
11. If you disagree, the only other possibility is that he is so stupid or mentally incompetent that he is unable to perform a task that is trivial even for a rather slow third-grader.
Which do you think it is? What would you estimate is the probability that he is lying versus the probability that he is so stupid or mentally incompetent that he doesn’t know how doctors dress, and thinks that they wear robes and stoles?
They should add up to 100%, since those are the only two possibilities. I look forward to your answer, which will never come. You’re a cult member and therefore unable to acknowledge what we all know to be true, which is that Trump is lying. Your silence confirms it.
All of us, including you, know that Trump is lying.
Which is why you posted facts and reasoned arguments to start this discussion, right?
Wait, no. You posted bald assertions from Twitter, every one of which has been proven factually false within the week.
keiths,
This is where your claim breaks down. In the example where you were successful supporting the lie claim you had evidence that what he claimed was factually false. In this case the claim relies on interpretation of a picture.
Erik,
Repeating bald assertions does not strengthen your case.
Interpret this https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/04/politics/video/trump-pope-ai-generated-photo-vrtc
On a good note, your case cannot be weakened. You did not have any case in the first place.
colewd:
You’re actually saying that as far as you’re concerned, Trump truly could have interpreted that image as depicting a doctor? Take another look:
Would you be comfortable signing your name to the following statement?
Look, it’s obvious what’s going on here. As a cult member, you don’t want to admit that Trump is lying, but you also don’t want to call him stupid or mentally incompetent. Unfortunately, those are your only two choices. “No, he isn’t lying” is equivalent to “Yes, he’s stupid”. “No, he isn’t stupid” is equivalent to “Yes, he’s lying”.
Pick your poison.
The rational choice is to conclude that he’s lying, because not even someone as dumb as Trump would believe that doctors dress that way.
Jon Stewart said that if he were very sick and the “doctor” came in looking like that, he’d know he had died.
Flint:
He also pointed out that the sick man in that image looks an awful lot like… him.
According to colewd, it’s just an interpretation of a picture.
Our disagreement does not concern the Iranian government but your government. Given your stance in the thread above it appears you still are quite content with the current administration, even after Trump broke his promise to start no new wars and did so in a clear violation of international law. Why do you accept Trump breaking his campaign promises and why do you condone his violations of international law?
FWIW, the fragment where Trump claimed he thought he was being depicted as a doctor has made it, completely unaltered, into every single satirical program on Dutch television and, so I imagine, worldwide. It is such an obvious pathetically bad lie that it was good for a laugh for millions of people all over the world at the expense of your beloved head of state.
Not sure what you are trying to accomplish by your absurd denial, but it does extend the mirth.
Corneel, to colewd:
Bill has never met a principle he wouldn’t abandon for the sake of his Dear Leader. Now that Trump is waging a war, Bill is no longer concerned about peace and has instead latched on to Trump’s false excuse that Iran was an imminent threat and needed to be attacked immediately, despite the fact that his intelligence agencies were telling him otherwise. His own counterterrorism director resigned in protest, saying
Add to that the fact that even if the threat had been imminent, it would have been due to Trump’s 2018 screwup in tearing up the Iran nuclear deal, which the Obama administration had negotiated and with which Iran was complying.
None of that matters to Bill, who is just fine with war as long as it’s Trump who is waging it.
To be fair to colewd, he is steadfast on the principle that whatever Trump says or posts is fact while everything else, be it polls, statistics, expert analyses, events, or proven evidence, is opinion, bald assertions and leftist biased anti-Trump propaganda.
Corneel,
Irans current leadership is a problem. They are heavy financial sponsors of terrorism, This needs to be dealt with IMO before they can get highly destructive weapons like nuclear bombs.
I am simply looking for people to argue with supported claims and not use propaganda based discourse like your Dutch media is doing. Peoples lives are being threatened globally and your countries media like ours is focusing on nonsense.
Yes, that’s true.
The current leadership of USA is also a problem. And they too might look like sponsors of terrorism to people in the middle east and to people in Venezuela. For that matter, some people in Minnesota, Chicago and Los Angeles might agree with that terrorism charge.
colewd:
Obama’s Iran nuclear deal (the JCPOA) was dealing with it until your Dear Leader ripped it up in 2018 for no good reason, imposing sanctions instead. Iran was in compliance up to that point according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, which had inspectors there. But after Trump withdrew, Iran started working toward a bomb again.
Trump promised to negotiate a better deal. He failed.
By withdrawing from the deal, Trump created the nuclear danger that we now face. How do you feel about that?
Also, recall that for months after the June 2025 bombing raids, Trump said that Iran’s nuclear program had been completely destroyed. Here’s one quote:
Yet in February, Trump said that Iran was two to four weeks away from having a bomb. How does a supposedly obliterated, nonexistent nuclear program produce bombs?
Your Dear Leader is full of it.
colewd:
We’ve supported our claims throughout this entire year-long discussion. Saying that we haven’t just makes you look desperate.
Look at what Corneel actually wrote:
Trump’s unaltered quote makes him look like a dishonest idiot. If that counts as propaganda, you might want to ask yourself: why is Trump producing propaganda that makes him look so ridiculous?
Dude, do you think maybe the Dutch have non-satirical programming, too? That just maybe, the Dutch media are also producing serious coverage of the war? What about the US? The fact that people are making fun of your ridiculous hero doesn’t mean that the deadly serious consequences of his fuckups aren’t also being covered.
It’s interesting that instead of defending Trump’s statement as truthful, you’re trying to dismiss coverage of it as nonsense. I can see how uncomfortable this is for you.
When you saw the image, did you think Trump was dressed as a doctor, or did you recognize what every non-impaired person saw? Do you think Trump is so mentally impaired that he truly believed he was dressed as a doctor? Or have you figured out what is obvious to the rest of us, which is that Trump was lying, although you can’t bring yourself to say it out loud?
My money is on the latter.
So, who is the “new regime president” that Trump said he’s negotiating with? The answer: Trump lied.
Instead of IMO, you mean war. So you condone war on false pretences, whereas not too long ago you loved Trump for ending seven-eight wars. Were you lying then or are you lying now? The answer: You were lying then (because Trump had not ended any wars) and you’re lying now (because Iran did not pose a threat, the clear aggressor in this war is USA along with Israel). You’re a liar.
Thanks for your anwer. So do I understand correctly that you value military intervention over defending international law, like for example the Non-Proliferation Treaty?
Incidentally, there are more dangerous belligerent states with “highly destructive” nuclear weapons. Somehow these do not seem to be “dealt with”. Russia comes to mind.
Let me tell you that I find it increasingly difficult to converse with you, since I have trouble pretending that you are posting in good faith. keiths already picked up on it, but let me urge you to reread what I actually wrote: The fragment was shown as-is. The reason that it was funny enough to feature in satirical programs was that Trump was so obviously and badly lying. I made that remark to somehow get it through to you that the one uncritically swallowing propaganda is you . This is dangerous to both of us, because the administration you are supporting is undemocratic, mendacious and hostile towards both rival and allied nations and even towards its own citizens.
Corneel, to colewd:
And more hostile to allies than to foes, at least in the case of Russia, China, and North Korea. The other day, he posted this:
To Maria Bartiromo, he said:
Of Putin, he says:
And of Kim Jong Un, he famously said:
I can only imagine how they laugh at him behind his back, he’s so easily manipulated. For him, it’s not about America’s national interests, it’s about whether these dictators like him and say nice things about him.
Trump, to Joe Kernen:
If we “totally controlled” the Strait, he would open it. What a pathetic lie.
He hasn’t won in Iran, and there’s no chance an incompetent doofus like him would have won quickly in Vietnam and Iraq. I wonder how many of the MAGA faithful are buying this crap. Bill, do you think we’ve won the war and that we “totally control” the Strait of Hormuz?
ETA: He just TACOed again.
On Monday:
Today:
Trump doesn’t understand what every skilled negotiator (and parent) knows, which is that you don’t issue ultimatums if you’re not willing to follow through on them.