A question for Christians, particularly those of the inerrantist stripe.
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28, NIV
And:
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NIV
“Punished with everlasting destruction.” Is that what a perfectly merciful, perfectly benevolent Father would do to his children?
keiths,
I have no idea what you mean by “gratuitous” suffering. I think you mean no suffering at all right? No mosquito bites right? No bad hair days right? Because that is all suffering right?
So until we can figure out what you mean by this, we can’t get anywhere. Because you refuse to answer. Why do we sometimes have to walk uphill? Why can’t every road be downhill? God is so unfair!
Maybe there would be a reason to believe in a benevolent God if she was capable of and willing to prevent the kind of evil that we can prevent. I can swat a mosquito if I want to. You worship an imaginary god that can’t even be bothered with that
dazz,
No one knows what you guys mean by evil, so I don’t know what you are talking about. Is being uncomfortable evil? Being unhappy? Keiths has got a cat stuck in his throat and refuses to answer. Maybe you do too.
It doesn’t even matter. I wouldn’t call mosquitoes evil. The thing is your purported god fails miserably at doing anything about mosquitoes, horrid diseases and anything in between.
dazz,
Or uphills! How can he be so mean!
But I will take note, that it doesn’t matter what you consider evil.
You are the one trivializing evil here. Making poor excuses for your imaginary friend. Uphills are not evil. See? That was easy
Allowing a child to be molested when one has the ability to prevent it.For humans it is even against the law.
phoodoo,
As dazz pointed out, it doesn’t matter. My question doesn’t mention the word ‘evil’, and it doesn’t depend on what counts as evil. It only asks what a loving Father would do:
You can ask similar questions about many other things:
Would a loving God allow 230,000 people to die in a tsunami, without even warning them?
Would a loving God stand by, doing nothing, while a dog ate the head of a living, innocent baby?
Since you’re frightened of answering my questions, why not ask God for help, as I suggested earlier?
You don’t seem to have much faith that he’ll respond. You’re probably right about that, but give it a try anyway.
How can I be expected to answer all your diversions when you refuse to answer what is evil and what isn’t in your world.
I had no idea you would be so afraid.
So only this then?
phoodoo,
There’s no need to be afraid of my little questions. You have God to rely on. Pray for guidance and then get back to us with your answers.
It seems to me that would be sufficient. Evil exists.
newton,
I know, there are hills everywhere.
keiths,
Poor keiths.
Not working out so good for you is it?
And nothing exists except by the will of God. Hills and evil.
newton,
Right. And maybe keiths thinks humidity is evil too. And wind. And sand.
Well, I guess we will never know because neither him nor you can tell is what is evil and what isn’t.
Just did but it seems for you it is just equivalent to a hill.
I’ve posted Terry Pratchett’s definition here before:
–from Carpe Jugulum, by Terry Pratchett.
That seems to me to be a better definition than you’ll find in the Christian bible.
newton,
“newton: Allowing a child to be molested when one has the ability to prevent it.For humans it is even against the law.”
You said this is the only thing that is evil. So you are apparently at great odds with keiths. he thinks other things are also evil. he is just afraid to say what is and what isn’t. You say nothing but this is.
And Patrick says something about sin that is insane and totally irrelevant-but that is his mind means something is regards to what constitutes evil . He is practicing his Trump imitation.
That’s a lie.
That’s repeating a lie.
Nah, I’m just flaming your ridiculous, occasionally vile scripture.
I believe he’s agreeing with the Kantian position that treating people as means rather than as ends is evil. Thus, he’s disagreeing with keiths.
Since phoodoo and Mung are ashamed to answer, are there any others out there who believe in a loving God and would care to respond to my questions? Particularly Christians who accept what the Bible says, as quoted in my OP.
If God loves all of us, why does he punish some of us with “everlasting destruction” and shut them out from his presence?
Why does he allow 230,000 people to die in a tsunami without even warning them?
Why did he stand by, doing nothing, while a dog ate the head of a living, innocent baby?
If you can’t answer these questions, why do you believe in a loving God? Doesn’t the evidence matter to you?
I stubbed my toe, and it hurt like hell. Totally unnecessary.
Therefore God does not exist.
In Texas, humidity is evil. In Washington, it’s normal.
It would appear that God granted unto humans the ability to prevent evil.
What a horrible evil act that was!
Therefore, God does not exist.
I thought I was going to stub my toe one day. It would have hurt like hell. Why does God allow me to think I could have stubbed my toe. Totally unnecessary.
Therefore God does not exist.
I am just glad there are no rules here at TSZ.
“That’s repeating a lie.”
keiths can go to hell
Mung and phoodoo,
Keep running away from my questions. It makes my point beautifully.
The evidence shows that your God — if he even exists – does not treat his children with love.
It’s a huge embarrassment for people like you.
According to Matthew 7:7-8, Jesus said:
So much for that promise. A lot of people have asked God about the solution to the problem of evil. He never divulges one.
Perhaps he’s ashamed, too.
Did you watch the video of Kendall Kardashian falling on her bike? (Ok, rhetorical question) Wasn’t that terrible? She just got her nails done yesterday. And do you know what her shirt cost? Why does God allow this?
Is this what you are referring to?
phoodoo,
Yes, your loving God can’t be bothered to prevent trivialities like damage to Kendall Jenner’s shirt or the drowning deaths of 230,000 people. Those things just don’t matter.
Theism has fucked up you up big time.
Trivialities? Is that a euphemism for gratuitous suffering?
Its so hard to know what you are referring to with these terms when you are so shy about explaining.
phoodoo,
You know exactly what I’m asking, which is why you’re running away from my questions.
You are asking for my forgiveness, for being so afraid of questions, and for your hypocrisy?
phoodoo,
No.
No.
No.
I’m pointing out what an embarrassing position you’re in. You believe in a loving God, yet you can’t account for the horrific, unloving things this supposedly loving God does.
Not only can’t you account,for the horrendous suffering your God allows and causes — you try to minimize it to get your God off the hook, by comparing it to mosquito bites and bad haircuts.
You remind me very much of some die-hard Trump supporters I’ve seen interviewed on the news lately. They’re confronted with the evidence of Trump’s dishonesty and incompetence, but they can’t bring themselves to acknowledge its truth. It’s “fake news” to them, and Trump is doing just fine.
God should be glorious and above reproach, yet you’re forced to make lame excuses for him and to evade questions.
Yet you can’t even muster the lame “fake news” excuse that the Trump supporters rely on. Everyone knows that more than 230,000 people died in the 2004 tsunami. 230,000 deaths are not the equivalent of one bad haircut.
Why didn’t God protect them, or warn them?
Why didn’t God prevent the dog from eating the baby’s head, when he could have done so with less effort than it takes you or I to lift a finger?
Instead of running away yet again, give us some actual answers, or admit that you can’t.
“I don’t like what the evidence says” is not an excuse for your head-in-the-sand behavior. Grownups deal with the truth even when they don’t like it.
keiths,
Afraid to say what’s evil, huh keiths
Not a good week for you.
Re “your eternity in hell,” I recently saw this nice Ekhart quote posted at another site:
The existence of evil is not evidence that God does not exist, it is evidence that certain attributes attributed to God are incompatible with the existence of evil. An Incan God is perfectly compatible with what some consider as evil, human sacrifice.
You quoted newton:
And then said this:
That is a lie. It is not what newton said and you know that full well because you read his comment and responded to it. You then repeated the lie.
If you don’t want to be called on your dishonesty, stop behaving dishonestly. Don’t try to hide behind the rules. If you demonstrate good faith, you can earn good faith in return. It would be a nice change for you.
Would seem more efficient just to skip this whole life thing if we need to be purified before moving on
Can’t always get what you want, you know.
BTW, for those apparently too thick to understand this, phoodoo was not ‘lying’: he’s simply noting that keiths is in the difficult position of claiming both that (i) there is a problem of evil that is a good argument against the existence of an omni-god; and (ii) there’s no such thing as evil.
It’s unsurprising that Patrick is unable to grasp that, but, presumably,others will have done so.
“we neither strive for, nor will, neither want, nor desire anything because we judge it to be good; on the contrary, we judge something to be good because we strive for it, will it, want it, and desire it.” (Spinoza, Ethics III, Proposition 9, Scholium)
I am not the one lying Patrick…
He hasn’t named anything else.
You seem to struggle with truth.
I think I would go further than that. Keiths is claiming somethings are more evil than others, without being able to say what and why.
Being unhappy is being unhappy. What is “gratuitously unhappy” supposed to mean? He has no idea. He is fumbling stupendously.
Yes, you are. You claimed “You said this is the only thing that is evil.” That is not at all what he said. It’s just shit stirring and trolling on your part.
I certainly don’t see Phoodoo’s statement as lying, but I do find it a weak form of argument by dubious definition with a reliance on the fallacious Argument of the Beard. In essence, Phoodoo’s argument boils down to, “well…if you can’t tell me what evil is and what delineates it, then clearly there isn’t any”. There are many things that are not easily delineated along a spectrum – the specific point when a person transitions from a child to adult comes to mind – that doesn’t make that spectrum, and more importantly the extremes, any less valid. Rules Lawyering the concept of evil doesn’t change the fact that there are atrocities in this world that most people agree fit the definition of evil. The act of rounding up, torturing, and killing approximately 6 million people is sort of embraced as a rather stark example. Say what you want about what gods can or should do, but if one is going to posit and embrace the notion of an omni-benevolent entity, the occurrence of such events is a curious contradiction.
So Phoodoo can can try and wriggle and hedge as much as he wants, but I really don’t see any of the theists having a sound rebuttal to Keith’s actual point.
Hi Robin
First apologies in advance as I’m not going to be able to sustain more than a haphazard to and fro, assuming you deem me worthy of a response.
Actually, I don’t think there is a useful or workable definition of evil. Talking of “evil” as a noun in the abstract reifies an imaginary concept.
I’m sure we could all give examples of events or acts that are horrific, bestial, wicked, bad, morally wrong, wrongful, immoral, sinful, ungodly, unholy, foul, vile, base, ignoble, dishonourable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, degenerate, villainous, nefarious, sinister, vicious, malicious, malevolent, demonic, devilish, diabolic, diabolical, fiendish or indeed evil.
But evil doesn’t exist in the abstract. It’s just a word we have to describe characters and acts that we abhor.
Actually, it’s been keiths who has insisted (in a number of threads) that there’s no such thing as evil. That’s why on this thread he’s moved off evil and good and into the nice/negligent parent area. I believe phoodoo’s position has been that (i) there’s evil, but (ii) we can’t know that some other world would be better. keiths wants to have his cake and eat it too.
That’s fine, but it make’s it tough to make a cogent argument that the existence of evil is evidence that there’s no God.