In the Roger Scruton on altruism thread, some commenters have expressed confusion over the evolutionary explanation of altruism in ants. If workers and soldiers leave no offspring, then how does their altruistic behavior get selected for?
The answer is simple but somewhat counterintuitive. The genes for altruistic behavior are present in both the workers/soldiers and in their parents. Self-sacrificing behavior in the workers and soldiers is bad for their copies of these genes, but it promotes the survival and proliferation of the copies contained in the queen and in her store of sperm. As long as there is a net reproductive benefit to the genes, such altruistic behaviors can be maintained in the population.
Selfish genes, altruistic individuals.
Let’s dedicate this thread to a discussion of other counterintuitive evolutionary truths. Here are some of my favorites:
1. The classic example of sickle-cell trait in humans. Why is a disease-causing mutation maintained in a human population? Shouldn’t selection eliminate the mutants? Not in this case, because only the unfortunate folks who have two copies of the allele get the disease. People with one copy of the allele don’t get the disease, but they do receive a benefit: improved resistance to malaria. In effect, the people with the disease are paying for the improved health of the people with only one copy of the mutation.
(Kinda makes you wonder why the Designer did it that way, doesn’t it?)
2. In utero cannibalism in sharks:
Shark embryos cannibalize their littermates in the womb, with the largest embryo eating all but one of its siblings.
Now, researchers know why: It’s part of a struggle for paternity in utero, where babies of different fathers compete to be born.
The researchers, who detailed their findings today (April 30) in the journal Biology Letters, analyzed shark embryos found in sand tiger sharks (Carcharias taurus) at various stages of gestation and found that the later in pregnancy, the more likely the remaining shark embryos had just one father.
(Kinda makes you wonder why the Designer did it that way, doesn’t it?)
3. Genetic conflict between parents and offspring. Here’s a great example from a 1993 paper by David Haig:
Pregnancy has commonly been viewed as a cooperative interaction between a mother and her fetus. The effects of natural selection on genes expressed in fetuses, however, may be opposed by the effects of natural selection on genes expressed in mothers. In this sense, a genetic conflict can be said to exist between maternal and fetal genes. Fetal genes will be selected to increase the transfer of nutrients to their fetus, and maternal genes will be selected to limit transfers in excess of some maternal optimum. Thus a process of evolutionary escalation is predicted in which fetal actions are opposed by maternal countermeasures. The phenomenon of genomic imprinting means that a similar conflict exists within fetal cells between genes that are expressed when maternally derived, and genes that are expressed when paternally derived.
(Kinda makes you wonder why the Designer did it that way, doesn’t it?)
Can readers think of other counterintuitive evolutionary truths?
Addendum
4. Mutant organism loses its innate capacity to reproduce and becomes a great evolutionary success. Can anyone guess which organism(s) I’m thinking of?
phoodoo, this is key to your misunderstanding of “life”, because it is absolutely and utterly wrong. Once you have educated yourself a little, and understand WHY this is so deliciously wrong (maybe write a computer simulation to test the idea…) then you will see that your agonizing over monogenic versus polygenic traits is misplaced.
Until then, all you are doing is displaying your ignorance and providing evidence to support the contention that IDists have no understanding of what they critique.
Resistance to malaria is a single-gene trait. Happy now?
I’m trying to explain to you, ‘doo, why that is the wrong question.
Now shut your trap, keep your simplistic remarks to yourself for a few minutes, and think about the question I asked you.
It sounds like you don’t have the altruistic gene packet. If you were an ant, you would have been exterminated long ago. Consider yourself lucky. Its not your fault.
phoodoo,
So, we must conclude that you are entirely unwilling to think about these issues, and learn a thing or two about genetics?
Two options here, ‘doo. Either answer the question about leg-genes I asked earlier to your best ability, or honestly answer the question above. Anything else, and you’re out of the game.
DNA Jock,
This is the key to your misunderstanding life, you believe that SAYING you are right and someone else is wrong, is equivalent to you being right and someone else being wrong. They are not equivalent. Until you understand that the two are not equivalent, you are not saying anything, and you are just displaying your ignorance.
In the future try to add some substance to your posts, other than to bluster that things are the way they are simply because you proclaim so.
Is it that you don’t know if you possess the altruistic gene pack or not, is that why you are unwilling to answer? Can you go ask your mom?
phoodoo,
Bye bye, ‘doo.
DNA_Jock,
Evolutionists love sickle cell anemia. Its the only thing they can ever think of that demonstrates their theory to their satisfaction. Give a guy a blood disease and you are well on your way to explaining the origins of life. That’s it s a debilitating loss of function, rather than a platform on which one could ever imagine building a new novel function is just an unfortunate little inconvenience in their mind.
Heck, why not jump on the Down’s syndrome bandwagon as prove of your theory, just for a little variety. Kids with Down’s syndrome hardly ever get killed in fighter pilot accidents.
Do you now admit that you were wrong when you claimed there were only two options?
phoodoo,
Oh phoodoo, you broke my brand new irony meter. Maybe I can return it under warranty 🙂
On the hilarious M&M thread, various posters explained to you in great detail why you were hopelessly wrong when you said “Start with one, see where it goes. It will die every time. I can tell you that even without a little computer program.” We provided you with detailed explanations, and even offered to de-bug the code that you had written, which gave you “ludicrous” results.
You have also treated us to your ignorance of basic, high school statistics when you tried to defend your claim of “confirming the null”. Do I still need to have my daughter explain to you what a “p value” is, or have you learned anything in the interim?
All of the “asserting without evidence” on this thread is by you. You don’t seem to do anything else, which fact is (as I mentioned) useful evidence to support the pro-science claim regarding the intelligence of IDists.
Keep up the good work.
Phoodoo,
Biologists like sickle-cell anemia because it is a great teaching example. Demonstrate your erudition phoodoo: is the S-allele dominant or recessive?
DNA_Jock,
Gee, that all great commentary from the sidelines Jock. All except for the part about me being wrong because you say so. I guess you also think 4 equals one. Are you a physics major?
Do you possess the “fallacious belief in one’s own windbag pontifications” gene packet? That’s a rhetorical question of course, you don’t have to answer.
You will of course, because you can’t help yourself, but you don’t have to. Anyway, you probably won’t die in a fighter pilot accident, so that’s good.
Heh.
Phoodoo, 4 = 1 was your own “invention.” Stemming from a thorough misunderstanding of a rather simple model. I said 4 deaths = 1 generation. You still don’t get the concept of a physical unit.
Answer, phoodoo, is it contradictory that 4 quarts = 1 gallon? 🙂
Trying desperately to inflate your weiny size online is your gene mutation pack, not mine.
Its only a great teaching example, because your side has no others, and if you ignore that its a loss of functioning disease, and that is a pathetic example of building a better functioning organism.
I have also heard that people with cystic fibrosis in the Kalahari rarely get aids from unprotected sex, because they don’t have sex often. Maybe you can use that as another teaching example next time.
Citation, please.
Oh, never mind.
So if the s-allele is (as you claim) a loss-of-function, would you expect it to be recessive? Is it recessive?
I guess if I get to decide what the definition of a quart is , then 4 quarts equals four gallons. Or else maybe 4 quarts equals 20 gallons. As long as I can just can get some cheerleader named Jock with shrunken weiny disease to help me say its true.
Nothing prevents you from using your own, private, and very silly definitions, phoodoo. In fact, you have been chasing rabbit trails of multiple definitions of generations in the M&M thread and its successor. At one point you were saying that each death = one generation. That was quite funny.
Or one can define things in a sensible way, as adults do.
So, my friend, how many deaths occur per generation in a stable population of N organisms? Have you figured it out yet? 🙂
You are not aware that it is a loss of function? You are talking about this disease that you don’t even know anything about?
Aren’t you even a little embarrassed that your side tries to use this disease to make claims about how life forms came to be? Is your lack of embarrassment simply because you simply don’t understand all of the problems inherent in such a dumb premise?
olegt,
Its probably time you got over your little M&M game mathematics silliness. I suspect you are boring people who don’t really care how much your ego has been bruised.
I didn’t ask you about M&Ms specifically this time. Once again, how many deaths occur per generation in a stable population of N organisms? The organisms aren’t necessarily M&Ms. It can be humans. It can be house flies. 🙂
Does Aspergers have the same genetic advantages of sickle cell anemia?
I see. No answer is forthcoming? 🙂
How many deaths occur per generation in a stable population of N organisms?
I would be interested in the results of an evolutionary simulation of Phoodoo, JoeG, and Mung behaving in a real world bar the way they do on the ‘net. On average, who would manage to exit with the most teeth remaining the most often?
Spoken from a worldview that is completely incapable of managing a mirror. I suppose you see DNA Jock and Gralgrathor as being refined British gentlemen.
phoodoo,
1) If the s-allele is (as you claim) a loss-of-function, would you expect it to be recessive?
2) Is it dominant or recessive?
I await your answers with anticip…
ETclarify
So many questions, so little time!
If a trait is controlled by 2 genes, is it still genetically controlled? Can it subject to selective pressure?
DNA_Jock,
Do you possess the faulty copying error, which accidentally makes people act altruistic? I am still waiting for someone to answer this.
Yes I do, phoodoo. Curiously, it only applies to my family.
Will you now do me the courtesy of answering my questions:
1) If the s-allele is (as you claim) a loss-of-function, would you expect it to be recessive?
2) Is it dominant or recessive?
Why even ask, DNA_Jock? Phoodoo couldn’t make heads or tails of this stuff.
Maybe he would rather answer the question about cystic fibrosis, since he bizarrely claimed to be informed about HIV in CF patients in the Kalahari:
So phoodoo:
Is the CTFR-Phe508del allele (which is responsible for the majority of CF in Northern and Western Europe) dominant or recessive?
To answer your question olegt, I continue to be amazed at phoodoo’s willingness to opine about ANYTHING. His sudden reticence on a question of simple biology is entertaining. But please don’t bring up heads and tails…[gggg]
DNA_Jock,
I am just trying to figure out why you need me to teach you so much about biology? If you don’t even know what sickle cell anemia is, maybe you should start with something a little simpler first. We can’t all be fighter pilots, don’t let it get you down man. You can still play basketball
http://www.usatodayhss.com/news/article/rochester-hills-middle-schooler-with-down-syndrome-makes-sportscenter–1
phoodoo,
If you are “just a simple farmer”, I’d be interested in what you think about Monsanto and its efforts to patent maize production.
phoodoo,
phoodoo,
Phoodoo, enlighten me, please. Why link to the achievements of Owen Groesser? Overcoming the problems associated with Down’s syndrome is great but what’s the connection with the current discussion?
Could the mods (and hopefully Lizzie) explain how exactly they can believe that phoodoo is arguing in good faith? Why can’t good faith also include actually addressing the questions put to him? Acknowledging the answers given to him? He mentioned boring. Dick jokes? Really? Is that all he has? He is the most boring person posting right now.
eta after thinking about it for a few more minutes:
He isn’t here to argue in good faith. He is here to make fun of you. Yes, that is an accusation if you want to call me on it.
I vote for installing an ignore function into this wp.
We’re experimenting with a new rule – well, more of a guideline really. We wait for an objection to a post or comment rather than being pro-active. So if you want to register a formal complaint about a comment, it will be considered. Regarding input from Lizzie, I am led to believe it could happen soon.
All rules – well respected though they are – aside, you’ve gotta admit ‘vark’s got a point. ‘doo is not actually participating in a conversation. He’s here.not to gain new insights, nor even to defend his own position: his sole purpose for commenting seems to rile people up. One cannot in all sincerity defend the statement that his comments are made in good faith.
Consider the possibility that phoodoo really believes what he’s writing in comments. Can you honestly reject that possibility?
ETA the => that
But it seems (if it is indeed the intention) rather ineffective as a strategy.
Alan Fox,
Yes. With a high degree of certitude. Whether or not he actually believes this stuff is not even relevant: his comments are designed to rile people up and allow him to evade the meaning of explanations and attempts to educate.
But it is. He’s got me riled up, and he isn’t learning a damned thing.
You are not required to respond to phoodoo. You are allowed to ignore those posts.
Les chiens aboient. La caravane passe.
True. But – try it
I don’t understand the reference.
What has phoodoo achieved by “riling” you? Maybe he (I’m fairly confident it’s he) will eventually learn that scoffing isn’t hugely persuasive.
It’s an Arab saying, apparently. The village dogs bark, but the camel train continues unperturbed. Imagine phoodoo as a village dog. 🙂
Actually, it is. Not persuasive, exactly, but effective. I often use a similar technique. Ridicule is a powerful tool in any debate. He isn’t persuading anybody, but he’s scoring points nevertheless.
I somewhat ignore them. I scan them quickly, but don’t spend much time on them. For sure, I am not going to get riled up by them.
Lucky you. Just my bad break that both my parents are teachers.