Cool it

In popular parlance, “child abuser” is just about the worst thing you can call anyone. So you can imagine my shock when I read the latest comments on one of my own recent threads and found one commenter accusing another of child abuse – a charge he repeated in the Moderation thread. My astonishment grew when I read of a proposal in Moderation to ban child abusers from The Skeptical Zone, on the grounds that people who post porn are already banned, and child abuse is much, much worse.

And what was the alleged offense? Here it is: “admitting to using strawman arguments, fallacious reasoning, and false claims to destroy childrens’ ability to think rationally about certain scientific topics. That’s child abuse.” Except that the person accused made no such admission. Regardless of whether the arguments were fallacious or not, no deceit was involved. It was the accuser who attacked the arguments as fallacious and illogical, not the person he accused.

And what were the arguments about? In a nutshell, abiogenesis. The arguments were presented to a group of six-year-old children and their parents, in an attempt to make them see that the origin of life from non-living matter is astronomically improbable, that macroevolution (e.g. fish to bird) is also vanishingly improbable, and that Intelligent Design is the only rational inference. A detailed description of the presentation can be found here.

I’d like to make a couple of very brief points. First, the term “child abuse” can be defined in three ways. First, could be defined very broadly to mean behavior which actually causes severe and/or life-long physical or psychological damage to children. Second, it could be defined more narrowly to mean behavior which is intended to cause severe and/or life-long physical or psychological damage to children. Third, it could be defined as behavior which the vast majority of responsible people, at the present time, would agree causes severe and/or life-long physical or psychological damage to children.

The first definition is clearly ridiculous, as it would make all of our parents or grandparents child abusers. Think of passive smoking. Or think of spanking: fifty years ago, it was quite common for naughty children to get their little bottoms hit with a belt and sent to bed without supper. The second definition is also unsatisfactory, as it would exonerate parents who refused to take their dying child to a doctor, but took her to a quack faith healer instead: here, the parents didn’t mean to harm their child, but any sensible person would say that they should have known better. That leaves us with the third definition.

So the question that concerns us is: does teaching a child a fallacious argument – assuming that it was fallacious – designed to prove that abiogenesis is well-nigh impossible constitute behavior which the vast majority of responsible would agree causes severe and/or life-long physical or psychological damage to a child? The response to that question should be bleeding obvious: you’ve got to be kidding me. Clearly the person making the ridiculous accusation needs to grow up.

I’d also point out that the person in question actually not only accused a TSZ commenter of child abuse, but also accused him of admitting to it:

Mung,

You seem very, very, upset that I am pointing out that [name redacted]’s real life behavior constitutes child abuse. A good example of him admitting to this is in the thread starting here.

I have to say that’s libelous. The accused person merely admitted to using certain arguments to persuade children. He made no admission of committing child abuse. As I showed above, the only reasonable definition of child abuse is: behavior which the vast majority of responsible people, at the present time, would agree causes severe and/or life-long physical or psychological damage to children. The accused person did not admit to engaging in such behavior; on the contrary, he emphatically denied it.

I think a retraction is in order. And I might add: the accuser is very lucky that the person he accused belongs to a religion that enjoins its followers to “forgive other people when they sin against you” (Matthew 6:14), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:40) and “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44). Very lucky indeed.

And how fallacious were the arguments, anyway? I’ll let readers judge. There was an everyday observation that “dead dogs stay dead dogs,” used to support the conclusion that “life does not come from non-life except by a miracle.” Pasteurization was also cited as evidence against abiogenesis. My response: those are valid points. They don’t demonstrate abiogenesis to be impossible, but the person accused was not trying to establish that. The argument he was making was a rhetorical one, not a rigorously deductive one which you might expect to hear in a college classroom.

There was another argument to the effect that fish don’t evolve into birds because fish give birth to fish. A little simplistic, perhaps, but it’s certainly strong prima facie evidence against macroevolution. Fortunately for evolutionists, there is good fossil evidence for the evolution of fish into tetrapods, some of which later evolved into birds. Scientists therefore have good reason to believe that it happened, but they still can’t demonstrate a mechanism for how it happened, and they still don’t know why it happened. What they have instead are some promising hypotheses which (unfortunately) have not yet been quantified in order to establish that the transition could have taken place over the timescale involved. And I hardly think most parents would consider it “child abuse” to omit to mention the existence of Archaeopteryx in a presentation aimed at six-year-olds, especially when there is an ongoing debate over that fossil’s place in evolution: some scientists argue that it was neither a bird nor an ancestor of modern birds (or even a close relative of that ancestor).

Third, there was an argument relating to a large cup of coins, in which the presenter asked the children to guess whether they would all turn up heads when shaken (answer: “NO.”) The accuser objected that it would have been fairer to ask a child to put all the coins that came up tails back in her cup and shake it again, and repeat the process again and again. But in this case, it it the accuser’s understanding of evolution which is faulty: it is a process that lacks foresight, so it cannot select for a distant, long-term result. Score a point to the presenter.

Fourth, the presenter showed the children videos of Rube Goldberg machines made by man, and then showed them videos of living things, telling the children that they are Rube Goldberg machines, too. That’s arguably true, as far as it goes. Consider the following sentence, taken from a textbook titled, Cell and Molecular Biology: Concepts and Experiments by Gerald Karp (John Wiley and Sons, Sixth edition, 2009): “Cellular activities are often analogous to this ‘Rube Goldberg’ machine, in which one event automatically triggers the next event in a reaction sequence” (p. 7). There are also scholarly papers discussing how such biological Rube Goldberg machines might have evolved – but once again, without any quantification of the degree of difficulty or the time that would have been involved. Is it “child abuse” to neglect to mention these plausible but speculative papers to a class of six-year-olds? No: it’s what lawyers call advocacy.

Finally, the presenter invoked Pascal’s Wager, when giving talks to college students (not six-year-olds):

I then teach them Pascal’s wager and point out, they have less to lose by being wrong about ID and God’s creation than their Christ-hating professors, therefore it’s worth stepping out in a little faith if that’s what they want to do.

I suggest that if they worry the professors are right, I suggest they ask them these sorts of questions. When they see their professors can’t answer, they often say, “then why do they teach evolution is true, they have no proof.” My point exactly.

The accuser’s sharp retort to this exposition was: “I suspect you neglect to mention the god that gets very annoyed with people who try to game it.”

Look. I have a Ph.D. in philosophy, and I’m quite familiar with the many objections that have been leveled against Pascal’s wager. But I’m also well aware that the “many gods” objection which the accuser cites (alluding to the “professor’s god“) is far from decisive, and continues to be the subject of vigorous debate. [Defenders of the argument point out, for instance, that since Pascal’s God is an absolutely perfect being, Pascal’s hypothesis is simpler and hence more probable than the highly ad hoc hypothesis of a professor’s god.] And I might add that since college students are not children, there can be no question of “child abuse” in this context. These students are perfectly capable of Googling “Pascal’s wager,” as I just did.

After having examined the arguments, I can find none that constitutes “child abuse” on any reasonable definition of the term. The accuser whom I mentioned also accused the presenter of “attempting to indoctrinate children.” However, the term “indoctrinate” is a highly loaded word. Attempting to persuade children of the truth of a certain worldview, using arguments that a scholarly pedant might take exception to, cannot be fairly described as “indoctrination,” whatever one might happen to think of the arguments themselves.

To sum up: I find the accused not guilty. And I would hope that the majority of readers would agree with my verdict, which is nothing more and nothing less than a victory for common sense.

Before I conclude this post, I’d like to comment on the suggestion made by one commenter that child abusers be banned from TSZ. As we’ve seen, the term “child abuse” has been variously defined by people on this Website, so before such a rule is proposed, we need to agree on which definition of “child abuse” we’re talking about. Now, the notion of clear and present danger is well-established in American constitutional law. If you’re going to actually ban someone from a site encouraging the free discussion of ideas, then I would suggest that your reason for doing so should be a compelling one. If, on the other hand, the suggestion is simply that contributors with a criminal history of child abuse be banned from TSZ, then that sounds much more reasonable. As for the banning of porn: irrespective of how much harm someone may think it does, the practical rationale for banning it should be obvious. Most people think it’s an annoying nuisance. The same goes for spam.

I shall lay down my pen here, and invite readers to contribute their thoughts. I’ve said my piece.

(Image at the top courtesy of all-free-download.com and BSGStudio.)

317 thoughts on “Cool it

  1. stcordova:
    I haven’t taught kids anything in over a year and a half.

    I hope you continue that streak.

    But anyway, a lot of this is moot. The kids now think evolution is stupid

    Intellectual and emotional child abuse demonstrated. You’ve abused your position of authority to teach these children lies before they possess the critical thinking skills to assess your strawman arguments. You’re vile, Sal.

  2. Patrick: I hope you continue that streak.

    Intellectual and emotional child abuse demonstrated.You’ve abused your position of authority to teach these children lies before they possess the critical thinking skills to assess your strawman arguments.You’re vile, Sal.

    Address the post not the poster?

    Hm…..You are a moderator right?

  3. Patrick: Likely to end in blood and cops in either case, I suppose.

    I sort of suspected that was your rationale.

    Nature or nurture, who can say?

  4. Patrick: Intellectual and emotional child abuse demonstrated

    Exactly so. Who knows what career and potential discoveries have been rendered moot as these children make decisions in the future based on poisoned information.

    For shame Salvador.

  5. DNA_Jock: To wit: your demand that Patrick produce an abused child is disingenuous; in this case, we will have to make do with the perpetrator`s written confession.

    Somehow I just don’t see Patrick taking the alleged written confession to the authorities. And the claim that there was an admission of child abuse was denied by the accused. So the alleged confession is disputed.

    All the while you’re ignoring the only point that matters here, which is why Patrick’s comment wasn’t sent to Guano. It clearly breaks the rules.

  6. Patrick: Intellectual and emotional child abuse demonstrated.

    By teachers pushing evolutionism onto unsuspecting and trusting kids.

  7. Patrick: I’ve explained exactly why Sal’s behavior constitutes intellectual and emotional abuse of children.

    LoL! Your opinion in this matter is meaningless. If you don’t have an abused child your opinion amounts to slander.

  8. Mung: All the while you’re ignoring the only point that matters here, which is why Patrick’s comment wasn’t sent to Guano. It clearly breaks the rules.

    Really ,that is the only point that matters here?

  9. Mung: Somehow I just don’t see Patrick taking the alleged written confession to the authorities. And the claim that there was an admission of child abuse was denied by the accused. So the alleged confession is disputed.

    You don’t seem to be paying attention, Mung. I don’t see Patrick taking the alleged written confession to the authorities either since, as I have already noted, Sal’s admitted behavior probably benefits from the constitutional protections enjoyed by religious indoctrination. If you believe Sal’s behavior is not abusive, then stop whingeing and make your case.

    All the while you’re ignoring the only point that matters here, which is why Patrick’s comment wasn’t sent to Guano. It clearly breaks the rules.

    Say what? The primary rule is “assume good faith”; so we have to take Sal at his word when he recounts his exploits in child deception. You must be referring to the exhortation to “address the post, not the poster” which, given everybody`s behavior here, strikes me as more of a guideline, captain. But, according to Mung, that’s the “only point that matters here”, rather than child endangerment. Yikes.

  10. Is Patrick an interior designer? I love what he has done with this place.

    Lizzie should pay him a bonus.

  11. DNA_Jock: But, according to Mung, that’s the “only point that matters here”, rather than child endangerment.

    First it was child abuse, now it’s child endangerment. And all without an abused or endangered child. I can’t wait for what’s next.

  12. I watched The Killing Fields again. It has been a while. It really puts accusations like Patrick’s in perspective.

  13. Daily Constitutional crisis brought about by an ignorant, dangerous, megalomaniac (#madnessoftheDonald) but let’s talk about Sal!

    Johnnyb has the Von Mises libertarians with him, but Sal is key, I think. Child abuser according to at least one Trumpian.

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