Our default position towards infidelity is that it is Wrong. I’m not here to argue otherwise, but the moral dilemma thrown up by this case is that someone has made it their business to interfere in the lives of strangers in order to promote their own moral stance. This has led to two (unconfirmed) reports of suicide, and the potential damage caused by a discovered affair is enormous. Of course, one can say the cheats should have thought of that in the first place, but we are calculating creatures, and the genuine, if naive, belief is that if the other party does not find out, no harm is caused. If you choose to expose a cheat, you are directly crystallising the potential harm, with no knowledge of individual circumstances.
Real people have real circumstances, and real desires, wants and needs. It is not always a simple black-and-white matter of ‘leave first’. While I don’t condone the actions of marital cheats, I find myself more incensed by the interfering, scattergun actions of these busybodies.
The utilities here seem really hard to calculate. Whatever is the right thing for those who have hacked and those who have been hacked, it may be salutary that the hackers have done this with respect to future…um….indiscretions.
I haven’t taken much interest in this, except for the exposure of a few hypocrites.
I think that anything you say or do on the internet is public.
Not because I think that is the way I think it should be, but because that is the way I think it is.
I can recall more than 15 years ago hearing about ECHELON. At the time it was one of those paranoid rumors that showed up mostly on right wing web sites.
Of course the rumors turned out to be true. And those are the good guys.
I manage some networks for some small businesses. I have seen a couple of guys persistently acquire viruses. One — I’m sure, because he browses porn. Another, because he has family in Vietnam and opens emails from there.
I don’t know what the original motive was for creating viruses, but the current motive is to gain information from and control of computers. The scariest ones are not the ones that disrupt the computer, but the ones that don’t.
I happen to think masturbation is not a sin or a crime, but i also happen to think it is inadvisable to do it in public. anything you do on the internet is public. or will be, at some inconvenient time.
IMHO the harmfulness and “wrongness” of these acts are unrelated and must be calculated independently.
Whether a given infidelity is harmful and thus “wrong,” and if so how wrong, IMHO can only be decided on a case by case basis, in the context of the respective marriages and relationships.
OTOH it was a virtual certainty that the hack and release of hacked information would create indiscriminate chaos and further harm and is, my opinion, a wholly destructive act the justification of which has nothing to do with the prior behavior of the victims. It was, inevitably, massively more harmful than any particular infidelity.
If a child misbehaves, short of the kid committing a crime, it’s not my business to interfere. In fact, me interfering and meting out punishment as a total outsider (unless I were say a school principal demanding detention and suspension from various activities), it would be criminal.
Same with the Ashley Madison issue, there are boundaries as far as who has the right to carry out retribution.
That said, is it immoral for a spouse to leave another? Say a Dad has a daughter, she’s being abused by her husband, how many Dads would think it wrong for her to leave him and have better life with someone else. There might be due process steps like a divorce and remarriage, but all this to say, not all situations of spouses wanting out of a marriage are equal.
The movie “Sleeping with the enemy” sort of brought the issue home….
Now, in the case of a spouse cheating on a good spouse, not cool. If there was a contract and mutual understanding that established the relationship, like all contracts there should be some expectation people follow through with their stated commitments.
I try not to judge people, sinners and otherwise. I try to figure out how to the world works and avoid putting my hand on hot stoves. So far this has worked pretty well to me and for my children.
I’ve missed a few things in life. Drug rehab, prison, divorce, bankruptcy. And all the moments of exhilaration that preceded those. All in all a boring life.
Amanda Marcotte:
The Ashley Madison Hack Is a Peephole Into “Traditional” Christian Marriage
petrushka,
You’ve had some excitement, too.
Yes. I had a fight with the IRS over a catastrophic error they made. They were forced to correct the error, but found another way to make me pay. As lots of protestors have found, there can be a price for confronting the government. The only real downside to fighting the IRS is that it doesn’t make a good story. Everyone assumes that only wealthy people have tax problems.
I have known people driven to despair by their marital situation. Equally, I have known people driven to despair by affairs…. It’s not just about sex. People want love, affection, attention every bit as much, and they are addictive.
Even if the relationship has diminished, they still feel loyalty to their partner, their kids, are fearful of making a mis-step and ending up even more miserable. Simplistic morality would have them suck it up (they made a vow) or leave so as to to put them in the right position should someone else happen along. And that’s what I find annoying – simplistic morality. Is a partner happier at being abandoned than cheated on? Are they better off giving grudgingly, or subcontracting that which they have come to find distasteful? It’s not straightforward, and religion-based universal oughts are not helpful. But I guess we aren’t murdering adulterers, so it could be worse.
FWIW, I’d be curious to hear hotshoe opine on this topic.
I really don’t think there’s any great thing to be learned from this. One person — Mr. McAfee, the antivirus guy — opines that the leak is an inside job. I find that to be the most likely scenario. One can think of several possible motives. Disgruntled employee being near the top of the list.
Infidelity, I suspect, is a major theme in most adult literature. Trying to say something original about seems rather futile. I am not an angel, but I am unable to lie convincingly, and I can’t imagine having enough money to pull off an affair. So I have a bit of trouble understanding how people make it work. Or think it can work.
Oops, I don’t think I know enough about who did what to have a valid opinion.
I will say, though, that the first mention I heard of the Ashley Madison hack pointed out that Saudi Arabia (and other vile governments) are going to be able to use the revealed names to execute or imprison any of their own citizens whose names are on the list.
There are other consequences besides the delight in being able to witness christian asshole Duggar squirming when his adulterous desires are revealed.
I’m still at something of a loss as to how any sane person could participate in something like this. Even without the hack, It would seem likely that someone would be outed.
I understand nearly all of the names are men, and there’s a high probability that many of the female names are robot names.
So if you were in the blackmail business, all you would have to do is sign up as a woman and wait for some foolish guy with extra money to wander into your honey pot.
petrushka,
Life is full of risks. Relationships are full of risks. That cute guy/girl could end up being your murderer, or bankrupt you and deprive you of the love of your children. Still, people need love, and will go to some lengths to get it.
I understand why someone disapproves of hacking and betraying secrets. What I don’t understand is defending people who betray their families.
I do understand why people have affairs, but I think it is somewhat dim to think you can get away with it. I’ve run into people who thought they were getting away with it, but weren’t. They seemed rather pathetic to me.
There are additional bits of foolishness, strictly at a practical level. My impression is that most affairs run out of steam after the marriage(s) against which the relationship is a rebellion has ended. Many affairs are emotionally parasitic on the rejected marriage, as one’s new partner often derives his/her perceived attractiveness largely in contrast with the rejected partner. Once the respective marriages end, It’s raison d’etre for the affair may evaporate and the affair itself end as well. So, upon entering an affair, one should bear in mind that the choice isn’t typically between one’s spouse and one’s new, clandestine partner, but rather between one’s spouse and, at least initially, being alone altogether.
Secondly, the capacity to pursue infidelity includes the capacity engage in extended lies and deception. Anyone entering into a serious relationship with someone who is themselves being unfaithful should expect, sooner or later, to be on the receiving end of the same treatment.
I believe it was Maslow who identified the hierarchy of human needs:
Air, water, food, sex, schadenfreude.
I think sex and schadenfreude are out of order in your list. 🙂
petrushka,
I guess I just don’t see things as black and white. Should an unhappy person leave? Is that better for the family? Should they stay, miserable, ratty and unloved?
Of course it is naive to expect not to be caught. But it is a story as old as the hills.
We are a nominally monogamous species. It is written in our genes – fidelity, guilt, and a tendency towards disapproval in others. But infidelity at some stage of a life is more common than not. It goes against my moral principles because it causes harm to others. But equally, I fully understand it. That’s why I raised the OP – it is an interesting moral area. Why do we disapprove of infidelity? Largely, because jealousy exists. But there is an enormous amount of hypocrisy out there. Many who disapprove simply haven’t been in an appropriate circumstance – yet. Many others are just simple hypocrites, who have cheated but pretend to disapprove in others.
I figured you’d have an interesting perspective, hotshoe. Thanks.
Without sex there would be no schaden to freude about.
I once fell in love with a married woman while she was separated. It wasn’t anything either of us intended and we did nothing that would have been a source of regret, but I agonized for several weeks. She was ten years older than I was. We met while I was in college. She was an engineer studying music and I was a frustrated musician studying engineering. I still have memories of her at my parents home serenading us. She was blond and athletic….dang….
On another note, upon giving it some thought, I realized most of my favorite love stories in theater and song and movies were centered on an adulterous relationship or some sort of forbidden love. In the case of adultery, the lovers seemed so natural, I forgot they didn’t belong to each other.
Additionally, I found something a little funny. The love stories I liked were written mostly by men (except for one written by the female medical doctor Han Suyin, Love is A Many Splendored Thing). I could sometimes pick out whether the author was a man or a woman. Love stories written by women often sounded like teenage girls gossiping and the story lines often had the heroine putting lover boy in his place, showing him she was the boss, then they live happily ever after. 🙂
I really didn’t like the stories by the Bronte sisters and the movies they inspired — kind of disgusted me.
Ingrid Bergman starred in a movie that involved adultery, and that was a classic, Casablanca and a favorite of mine.
Bergman was in some affairs in her personal life. Wiki reports:
List of forbidden love story classics…
Casablanca:
Camelot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnT1RYkUFdg
Love is a Many Splendored Thing:
West Side Story:
My family may be unusual in that the infidelities I am aware of were committed by women. Both my maternal grandmother and my mother had affairs and left their marriages for them. Nana’s was in the days when this was still scandalous. She stayed with him till death; her ex remarried.
My parents had a difficult relationship that affected our childhoods. Dad suffered from depression, making him hard to live with. The root cause, I don’t know. They separated when I was 6, then got back together for the sake of us kids. Whether that was better than a clean break, I cannot say, because I did not have the luxury of examing the alternative. But the shouting was problematic. As a consequence I try never to argue with my wife, although her own temperament makes this easier. We bicker, but it’s a completely different level.
When I was 15, mum left for another man. I didn’t feel betrayed; I wanted her to be happy (though I can’t say I liked the bloke). They were together for 10 years, until, in a classic cashing-in of the risk, he left her for someone else.
I have seen it from all sides. The ‘cheating bastard’ cliche is just that, a cliche. We can’t always help who we fall for, nor how we feel a few years down the line. People muddle through a game with one basic rule – ‘one at a time’. It’s a good aspiration.
Ashley Madison is a little different in that it is calculating. Nonetheless, I do not rush to judge.
I do my best not to judge, but I dislike mean people and people who seem to be indifferent to the pain they cause others. The life is short motto seems to reflect a psychopathic indifference to anything other than getting caught. Hence the schadenfreude.
Being monogamous doesn’t seem to work for everyone, but I have a problem with people who lie easily. I simply can’t be friends with someone who can’t be trusted. I’ve had such friends,and I keep my distance.
petrushka,
Sure, but it’s a spectrum. I don’t think indifference is necessarily the case. Lying can be, in a twisted way, protective of the partner, at least in intent. Though I can’t deny that cheats are also protecting themselves with their subterfuge. But I think many cheats hate the thought of causing pain. Not enough to not do it, but this is where a naive hope of non-discovery comes in. And an indifferent partner can give the impression that they would not actually be bothered – even if, when push comes to shove, they very much are.
We are a calculating species. We aspire to honesty, but it is not always the best policy. The non-cheating way would be either to leave or put up with the misery. “I want to leave you so I can meet someone else”, or “I’m only staying with you because of the house and kids” can be uttered honestly, meanly and indifferently all at the same time. Or with great sorrow. Or not at all, a lie of omission.
stcordova,
Yep. A rich vein of emotion, from every angle:
The Cheat – Be My Downfall
The Lover – Still Pretending
The Partner – Better Be Home Soon
All Sides – Always the Last To Know
Allan: I accept that life is a muddle. I am odd in many ways, not the least of which is living in a bubble of people who stay married. I have lots of relatives. My father had 11 siblings and my mother seven. Divorce is so rare in this extended family that I was in my fifties before I heard of one. So I have trouble understanding phenomena like Ashley. I also have trouble following much of literature. It just doesn’t speak to me.
I do understand and relate to teenage angst. I had plenty of that. And in 45 years of marriage I’ve had plenty of bickering and a bit of screaming. But I simply don’t comprehend disloyalty.
petrushka,
Well, I’ve been with my wife since 1979. I’ve been pretty loyal. But I understand desire too. Some of us are saved from transgression by being ugly and charmless! 😉
One of those forces is strong in me. I’ll not say which one.
I’ll say one more thing and quit. For reasons completely beyond my control, I find intelligence and wit to be the most attractive thing in a woman. After you get past the two heads barrier, it’s practically the only important thing.
That really limits the supply of temptation. Most women hide intelligence, and those that don’t are already taken.
RB do you know to what extent these issues/problems are cultural? I once talked about this with a French woman friend who said something like, ‘Oh, in France everyone has long term affairs, and no one wants to know too much about what their spouse is up to. Why would they?’
And she is a devout Catholic!
I would guess that tolerance of affairs is proportional to the difficulty of getting a divorce, and whether marriage is primarily a business contract.
But I think the situation is best characterized by some simple statistics and facts. The more that is known about Ashley Madison, the more likely it appears that nearly all the clients were men. Most of the women were either phony names or were hired to chat with men.
So I would say, if you want to know about the ethics of having affairs, ask women.
From CNN:
The Ashley Madison hack ruined my life
I never demanded fidelity from my wife. In fact, I explicitly excluded that demand. That said, I think the acts that ruined people’s lives preceeded the hack.
petrushka,
Hmmm. Sounds like blanket hindsight. Consider someone whose partner has ceased to be affectionate. In the curious way these things work, that partner would feel deply hurt if they were cheated on – “I don’t want you, but don’t you dare …”. Options are limited. Leave – and risk subjecting the kids to trauma, living in a bedsit on the wrong side of town, possibly without access. And for what? Stay celibate, and face up to the realisation that no-one will ever be affectionate towards one again. Pay for it, but that’s cheating too, and you’re not really buying affection.
Some people are bastards. Others aren’t. People will end up in bedsits on the wrong side of town as a result of their prior actions – what they ‘should’ have done in the first place, I guess.
Actually, I don’t. That’s a very good question that awakens me from the slumber of repeating old chestnuts on the topic. I’ll think about it, and maybe investigate.
Thanks. I guess it’s generally pretty hard to distinguish basic psychological propensities of human beings from cultural inculcations (if that’s the word). Sort of like nature/nurture with our kids.
Just thought this belongs here.