Because no Christian organization has spoken out against Matt McLaughlin’s hate-filled initiative proposal “The Sodomite Suppression Act”.
It’s better known as the Kill the Gays Act. It begins with:
“The People of California wisely command, in the fear of God, that any person who willingly touches another person of the same gender for purposes of sexual gratification be put to death by bullets to the head or by any other convenient method.”
Look, anyone with the $200 filing fee and access to a typewriter or computer can submit an initiative proposal, so it’s not surprising that some dangerously deranged people start the process.
What’s surprising is that no christian leader, no christian-oriented news source, no official church spokesperson that I’ve heard, has repudiated McLaughlin’s despicable proposal.
Nor can they claim that they haven’t responded to it merely because it’s too minor to make the news. Kill the Gays has made all the major papers in the state. It is significant enough that it might trigger the CA state legislature to overhaul (finally!) the corruptible voter-initiative system. Also, it’s already involved in a court case with the state AG tying to pre-empt placing this clearly-unconstitutional initiative on the state ballot.
So, Christians, why are you silent? What would your beloved Jesus say if he witnessed you silently accepting MM’s murderous desire?
Submitted to the Office of the Attorney General: text of the proposed initiative (pdf) received Feb 26 2015
In the Atlantic magazine”: a fair article on the larger issues around this initiative by Russell Berman
We keep hearing that Christianity is the source of morality. But I have to say that some of the sleaziest and most dishonest people that I have met have been Christians. And most of the atheists have been pretty decent people.
Now, I do need to be fair. I have also met some really decent Christians. And if I lived in the middle east, it would probably be a different religious group that I was complaining about (not that you can complain about them there if you value your life).
All in all, religion does not come off well.
The worst thing is that many of them support it, though they probably prefer to keep a low profile and not show public support.
Sorry, Hotshoe and Neil. Numbers of liberal Protestant denominations have gay and lesbian ministers. (Although we’re talking about Christianity, it is also true that the current head of Reform Judaism is a lesbian who is married to her partner. Conservative Judaism is not far behind, despite the name of their denomination). The Episcopalians have gay and lesbian bishops.
And you think that the reason that they haven’t condemned this referendum is … they covertly support it?
Sorry, but that is ridiculous.
I don’t hate Christians. Most of them are good people in my experience, just mentally shackled. 🙁
Neil Rickert,
I remember keiths, Allan, and probably you arguing that morality is totally subjective to the individuals believes, and that people should act according to their morality, so…what’s the problem exactly?
Whose moralities should the laws be based on?
I’m pretty sure that i can speak for Neil in saying that you have misread here.
Sure, most christians as individuals, and many christian denominations as separate organizations, are decent enough. Many refute homophobia (even when the parent organization has a creed which condemns homosexuality). That’s not in conflict to what either Neil or I said.
I asked why no christian organizations – as far as I can tell – have spoken out against this very public call for murder by a christian lawyer.
Neil suggests that for many organizations, the answer is easy: because they covertly do support the destruction of homosexuals. We know that those kind of hateful christian organizations do indeed exist: they’re the driving force behind lethal African anti-gay laws, and also influence Russia’s recent anti-gay discrimination. It’s not even covert, it’s overt.
So some/many christians and their organizations wouldn’t speak out against legal murder of homosexual people, because they actually believe that’s what “sodomites deserve” and that’s what “god wants”.
The question remains: Why hasn’t, for example, the Archbishop of the Diocese of San Francisco made a comment? He should have already found time to say that, even though Catholics are enjoined not to commit the sin of homosexual relations, nonetheless they must condemn any person who calls for executing human beings. He doesn’t need to wait for the Pope to speak out about an issue which could mean death for his congregants.
Why hasn’t, for example, Gene Robinson weighed in? Is he not willing to shame his fellow christians for silently accepting such un-Jesuslike hatred? Is Robinson silent because he is too recently scarred by the divisiveness of the anti-homosexual faction within his own denomination?
Is it simply because even “nice” christians aren’t really so nice after all?
Or is it because, in spite of the constitutional, free-speech, and moral issues which Kill the Gays present, it really has not made the news except to the minority whom it will harm? Well, that can’t be the whole answer, because I heard about it — and I’m not flying a rainbow flag. I jcare just because I care. Goddamn that whole empathy thing some of us have been saddled with. 😉
See, phoiodoo, I knew I could count on you to provide the perfect example.
Notice that phoodoo can’t or won’t bring himself to reject a fellow christian’s demand the our government unconstitutionally execute gay people for the “crime” of being gay. I’m not saying phoodoo would actually pull the trigger himself. Who knows. But he clearly won’t shed any tears if someone else pulls the trigger in his name.
Yep, sure thing, phoodoo, please feel free to keep poking at atheists/non-theists about where they get their morals, while demonstrating so conclusively that you have no moral sense whatsoever
phoodoo:
phoodoo,
After all this time, you still don’t get it.
Yes, morality is subjective, but no, I don’t think that people should act according to their own subjective morality. I think they should act according to mine. Why wouldn’t I?
Think, phoodoo. I judge my own morality as superior to McLaughlin’s, which is why I don’t switch to his.
I regard it as immoral to kill gays for the “crime” of being gay, so I oppose McLaughlin’s bill.
Oh, thank god, 46 American christians think badly enough of their fellow-christian Ugandan gay-haters to sign a letter urging the haters to reconsider.
One in particular, evangelical Jim Wallis, is quoted in reference to the letter they signed:
If only it were true that, as he says, faith compels [them] to act with love.
But, thank god they’re not all haters. We already know what that world looks like, and we don’t want to go back.
#notallchristians
Blinded by hate is not the sole province of “Christians.”
No.
Several have express the view that morality is subjective. But they have not said anything close to what you attribute to them.
RIght, it’s not.
Hey, Mung, are you going to publicly denounce McLaughlin’s plan to get the state government to execute queer folk?
When?
Now would be a good time, since you’re here.
#notallchristians
#notallhumans
Good to hear.
True, but it surely particularly surprising in adherents to a religion that specifically commands love.
Yep. I think that’s the thing that surprises me the most.
Elizabeth:
You probably understand by “adherent” the same thing as I do.
Someone who hates is not an adherent to a religion that specifically commands love.
Well, how nice to be in such profound agreement with you, Mung 🙂
You obviously have a lot of hate in you (insert basically anything you’ve said to non-ID supporters at UD quote here). Have you discarded your religion accordingly?
Elizabeth,
Would you expect Christians to love serial killers, rapists, people who beat up old ladies? Would you blame them if they wanted laws which outlawed killing dogs for pleasure, or outlawed embezzling, or selling heroin? You wouldn’t think it was hypocritical of them to want that would you?
So, it seems mostly you are like keiths, you just want them to follow YOUR morals. I think many reasonable people would agree, saying laws should be made to follow Keiths morality is a pretty arbitrary and stupid basis for law.
So do you have a standard that laws should be based on, or do you think we should all just listen to keiths?
Yes.
Which is why Christians have often been at the forefront of prison reform, and are often diligent prison visitors. But then so have secular people.
Not at all.
Yes. I think laws should have as their primary aim of discouraging people from people harming other people, either directly, or by benefiting at their expense.
And if a society wants to extend that protection to sentient members of other species, that’s fine.
You mean, like every True Christian (TM) ever? Every member of your denomination or your own family who points with justification at a bible passage saying “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” or “If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”or your loving-example Jesus reportedly saying “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.“? You mean those people who hate and have no reason to change?
Oh, here’s another gem:
Jesus said. “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” Thus we have self-hating christians, and even the ties of kinship and friendship which normally in human history have spared family from the focus of the haters, now are to be severed in allegiance to Jesus so that the disciple will hate all persons equally. That’s progress! Yay!
Yeah, those True Christians, them I fear. They’re all around me. I don’t feel picked on; they’ve always hated everybody. It’s just that sometimes the political climate emboldens them to act upon it, in other times they’re told by their church leaders to stifle it and look “nice”.
I’m glad, Mung, that out of all the contradictory and anti-human scripture you’ve chosen to focus your faith on the parts where you were told to “love your neighbor”. I think you genuinely believe in that sermon and aspire to that ideal — many, or perhaps even most, christians do — but what you don’t seem to recognize is that you don’t have to be a christian to aspire to being a loving human being. And indeed being a christian and keeping yourself in contact with christian religion is likely to be a handicap to your ideal.
Being a secular humanist is far better, because there has never been a secular-humanist scripture which orders you to put someone to death in god’s name.
Good point. It’s not Christianity that’s the problem. It’s only those Christians who act like bigoted arrogant assholes then cherry-pick the Bible to justify their harmful antisocial behavior. See UD for plenty of examples.
Remember the game-rules, please: assume that other posters are posting in good faith. e.g even of wrong, not lying, but stating what they believe to be true.
Guano worthy.
What’s the point in a personal attack on Mung’s emotions (as you assume them to be) ?
I mean, I started this thread about why I hate christians — and I’m not being sarcastic; I think it’s probably obvious that I’m genuinely filled with loathing — but I hope I haven’t used that as an excuse to attack any person specifically posting here at TSZ.
Saying “I hate them because …” seems to be a whole ‘nuther thing than saying “You obviously hate because …”
Hotshoe, I wonder if you’ve jumped the gun here. Would we expect any major organizations to speak out one way or the other about a proposal that hasn’t yet even gotten the signatures necessary to appear on the referendum? (If it has gotten the requisite signatures, and we know it will appear on November’s ballot, then that’s a different matter.)
Inasmuch as I intend to post at TSZ in the future, I must repudiate the OP. I am thoroughly irreligious. Anti-religion is not my surrogate religion.
1. “They hate, so I hate back.” That’s not merely childish, but ruinous for all when played out on a grand scale.
2. “I’m preoccupied with one of many homophobic nutcases, so Christian leaders should be as well.” The initiative stands no chance of making its way onto the ballot, let alone passing and then surviving as law. It is so far beyond the pale that it might well be a parody:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/sexuality/sodomite.asp
If not, then it is a fabulously inexpensive way to gain publicity. Either way, rising to the bait would be a dumb move. Various Christian denominations have position statements that effectively oppose the initiative. It is wrong to take their silence as complicity when their response would amount to foolish enabling.
Tom English,
Sage words, Tom.
Tom English,
Hear, hear!
Trying to put this into perspective, I hate Muslims because most governments run by Muslims have bronze age laws that pretty much put into practice the same things hotshoe is complaining about, and if any moderates object, they certainly aren’t marching in the street in protest.
I could, without much effort, hate everyone who doesn’t hate all the same folks I hate. That could be a long list.
It’s a bit more manageable simply to list the actions and laws I think are hurtful or counterproductive. It’s still a long list, but it’s a bit less stressful to hate things than to hate people.
National Brotherhood Week is over…
Unfortunately, this initiative has the signatures it needs to be placed onto the Ballet. Kamila Harris (CA attorney general) has now been tasked with writing it up for the ballet but I have heard that she has been granted more time to scuttle this prior to it becoming an official entry for the ballet. California’s ballot initiative process is certainly overdue for a makeover given that a proposition that would essentially legalize murder is even considered for the voting public. It makes no difference if it would not stand up in court if passed it has met the current guidelines for submission.
BK,
That’s not correct. McLaughlin hasn’t begun collecting signatures, and he can’t do so until the AG issues an official title and summary of the proposition. Meanwhile, she’s filed an action with the CA Supreme Court asking it to relieve her of that obligation.
Even if the court denies her request, McLaughlin will need 365,000 signatures in order to get his proposition onto the ballot.
I don’t hate Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or any other organized religion. I hate sexism, racism, and homophobia (and a few other -isms). There are lots of examples of people using organized religion to justify or legitimize their prejudice and hatred, and there are also lots of examples of people using organized religion to criticize and overcome prejudice and hatred. And not even secular societies are free of prejudice and hatred, so it’s hard to see the virtues of secularism along those lines.
Thanks, Keiths. I was just about to post a correction as well after my wife informed me that the NPR interview we listened to (quite some while ago) indicated all he (McLaughlin) had to do is file the petition and pay the filing fee. Once that was done harris was hamstrung to write the summary of the petition (as you indicated).
phoodoo,
You misremember. What does ‘totally subjective’ even mean? The debate was about morality existing as a concept outside of human heads or not. I say not. You say yes, but have absolutely no means of distinguishing objective moral truths from your standards. Unless you only think something is wrong because God says, but actually couldn’t give a shit about it personally …
Your God’s phoodoo. When he’s told you what they are, be sure to let me know.
I’m a Christian, so to me the answer is obvious: no one who hasn’t heard of the “Sodomite Suppression Act” is ever going to offer a reaction. I take it this “Sodomite Suppression Act” is something you made up. Yes?
But obviously, if you’re down to “reason” #12483 (a “reason” for “hating,” of all things) you’re in serious emotional trouble. So I’d like to see some of the basics.
Is there a “reason” #1? If so, do you know what it is? Can you express it? Is it rational? What, for you is the Number One “reason” for hating Christians, if anything.
Father Herman
monk Herman,
No, it’s an actual proposed ballot initiative in California: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomite_Suppression_Act
I think the #12483 is a figure of speech, Father Herman. What hotshoe is trying to say, I think, that this quite unbelievable proposal apparently on the ballot now in California, based on some nominally Christian rationale, should surely have been vociferously disowned by Christian groups, and their silence is deeply offensive.
I take the point made upthread that perhaps there was some argument for not mounting a protest lest it give the thing additional publicity, but frankly, the thought that such a bill had anything to gain from additional publicity is horrifying enough.
Welcome to TSZ by the way (I haven’t met you before anyway!) Speaking for myself I don’t hate Christians, or anybody, really, but that doesn’t stop me hating what some people do, and this is one of them.
Matthew 7:15
Lizzie,
My short response to Father Herman may have been misleading. The Sodomite Suppression Act is a ballot initiative proposed by a lawyer in Orange County. He has filed the appropriate paperwork with the state of California in order to be able to collect signatures to put it on the ballot. If the Attorney General does not find a legal way to withhold approval, the sponsor will need to collect 365,880 signatures to get on the ballot.
I think the figure of speech number has a basis.
Before England stopped jailing homosexuals, they had imprisoned 49,000 people and ruined the lives of countless others. Based on biblical injunctions.
If you need more numbers you could add in the children virtually enslaved in Irish orphanages. And the children sexually exploited by priests who were protected by the church.
And all the hypocritical ans sanctimonious lectures on how religion is a prerequisite for morality.
Visit Edinburgh. Take the tour. Find out how many ‘witches’ they rolled down the hill in spiked barrels.