I read an article on Salon, about a woman who gave birth to a premature baby that didn’t survive. The point of her article was tell everyone how much she hates when people tell her her baby is in Heaven.
But actually her point is more than that. Her point really is to make sure you know that she is atheist. And to tell you, that you are dumb for not being one. Because this is what good atheists do. They talk about how the “great thinkers” like DeGrasse Tyson and Sagan give her comfort, when they reassure her that you are just a tiny speck in a much bigger universe (that has no purpose).
So her belief is that we are just specks of dust. So I wonder if she would get more comfort, if her friends reminded her, when she talked about the grief of losing a baby she never even knew, that it doesn’t matter, she was only a speck of random DNA dust anyway, so any incidental feeling of connection or purpose to that speck, is just a sorry illusion. nevermind it.”
Because, afterall, isn’t this what the Dawkins and the Penn Jillettes, and the Steve Novellas are hear to constantly remind everyone else? Is that how her friends should respond in the future, so she then doesn’t have to write any more blogs talking about how sad she is losing her speck of dna?
The atheists say we are nothing. They say life is meaningless, and you are just an accidental robot. Heck, they even don’t think we should grieve over abortions, so why does this woman want to remind us that she is grieving over a baby that lived eight hours?
Basically, atheists are hypocrites really. But as Penn Jillettte likes to says, he doesn’t think there is anything the slightest bit wrong with hypocrisy.
I think the article should be, please stop telling me your are sad about a speck of meaningless DNA. Its an illusion.
OR, perhaps atheists should stop trying to tell others that their beliefs are wrong. That would be novel.
Elizabeth,
Well, I guess according to this wild definition of being a parent, I have had sex, so that makes makes me a parent.
Do miscarriages count? Abortions? A blocked pregnancy from contraception? Are all of these cases the equivalent of becoming a parent?
Elizabeth,
Did Einstein know that this is what the person wanted to hear when their child died? Was he trying to tell them what they wanted to hear, or was he telling them his own beliefs?
Lizzie, does the person whose dog died have a reasonable expectation to ask people to comfort her about her dead dog the way SHE WANTS them to?
Perhaps you should take your wit down to the local Nicu and entertain the parents and staff
Keith, don’t be a Phodoo
newton,
Well, no, not if the author of that article is there. She might complain that I am not comforting her the way she wants. I would hate to tell her I wish the best for her, and have her reply, “There is no best, we are just specks in a giant universe, Tyson told me so, don’t judge good or bad!”
Maybe you can answer for Lizzie, does the grieving pet owner, or the boyfriend of the girl who had an abortion also deserve the comfort THEY WANT?
Well, no. But what I was wondering was: do you have children? Have you wanted children? Have you lost a child? Have you had a pregnancy end in a miscarriage or still birth?
I’m just trying to get a handle on your experience base here.
They are certainly experiences that would help you understand the complexity of of the sense of loss associated with our rather fragile human fertility.
I don’t know. Any attempt to reach out is good, I think, even if it misses the mark, But it does have the virtue of being consistent with a lot of religious belief as well as with none.
Here is the whole thing:
Overcoming the delusion that we are separate from each other and from the rest of existence does seem to me to lie at the heart of religion, and a comforting thought in the face of loss.
It’s not a million miles from Donne:
No. But that doesn’t mean that writing an article about what does, and doesn’t help her, and people in her position, isn’t worth doing.
Don’t we all want to know what to do to be able to comfort others as effectively as possible?
Elizabeth,
She is one person. How is knowing what she wants going to be valuable to know what another person would want to hear.
Unless of course you accept the assumption that atheists do INDEED share certain beliefs, which can be deduced simply by the fact that they are atheist-which is exactly what I said at the beginning, and you have fervently tried to deny when it hurt your arguing position.
People are more similar then then are different. If you’d met some people in real life you’d probably know this.
OMagain,
In that case, telling her you are praying for her and her child is good. Because many people are comforted by this.
In that case you had better hurry up and start learning Chinese.
鳥糞
What’s the title of this thread, again?
phoodoo, I think I get your point that one could take any condolences offered in good faith in the spirit with which they’re offered. And we might feel sorry for somebody who gets yelled (or sneered) at simply for trying to be nice.
But I put it to you, whom do you think we should we feel sorrier for, the ill-treated condolence giver or the person who has lost her child (or pregnancy, or beloved pet, etc.)? Who is likely to grieve longer–the slighted Hallmark card bearer or the bereaved mother or friend?
And just how big a deal is it that Einstein, just like the well-meaning Christian, thought his condolence offering would be taken in the spirit in which IT was offered? He could also have been wrong, of course. But what matters is the loss, no? Not the condolence–right or wrong or even totally thoughtless. It may give somebody something to bitch about….but only for a moment, before the real reason for pain, the loss returns in full fury.
walto,
Except the author is complaining that she didn’t get the kind of condolences she prefers-so she might well have been the kind that also would be offended by Einsteins remarks.
But there is more to this article than that. First, she is clearly trying to sell her worldview as the better one. There is no hiding that.
Secondly, if you read the article, it sounds as if she is pleading for the same sympathy as someone who lost their ten year old daughter deserves. She keeps referring to losing her daughter Maggie Hope, and how it still pains her being the parent of a lost child. The fact is, she basically had a stillbirth or miscarriage. I am sorry, but this is nowhere near the grief of a parent that actually loses their child they raised. This miscarriage happened over three years ago! This to me sounds like a crazy person. I think she lacks self-awareness if she can’t see how offensive this might sound to others who have actually lost their child. As if she can share their pain. Its like the girl who gets drunk at a frat party, flirts with a guy, goes back to his house, has sex, and then regrets it the next day and then says she is a rape survivor. That’s a real disservice to people who are actually rape survivors! Its totally undermines the seriousness of that persons real tragedy.
Finally, if an atheist really thinks that a miscarriage is the same as losing a child, how could an atheist be for abortion? Its complete hypocrisy. I think you side definitely has the winners share of hypocrisy.
phoodoo,
Is ‘homosexual’ still an insult in your part of the world?
newton,
By criticizing KN?
I think your (double) standards need adjustment.
So, presumably you support abortion rights as a foetus is not a child?
Nah…but eunich can be sometimes.
No one cares if someone is gay.
OMagain,
Yep, I sure do.
Like I said, I think hypocrisy is a much greater domain of the atheist.
What makes you think this?
phoodoo,
I didn’t read it that article. I’ll take your word for it that the author is annoying and trying to sell her worldview as superior.
But I did want to respond to this:-
While you’re probably right if you’re implying that religious people are more likely to be anti-abortion than non-believers, it’s not as simple as that, I don’t think. An atheist could believe that fetuses have a natural right to life. She might even believe that this happens at conception. Furthermore a theist might be OK with abortions. Many are.
Again, I don’t deny the usual grouping here, but there’s no simple, perfect arrangement. For example, I am an atheist, but I think abortions might be (objectively) wrong (regardless of the trimester) in certain societies at certain times.
ETA: Also, this remark Finally, if an atheist really thinks that a miscarriage is the same as losing a child is a little tricky. The atheist might believe it’s the same sort of loss–for the parent–without believing that in each case a person has been destroyed. Losing a pregnancy can be very sad for other reasons.
Let me see if I’ve got this straight:
You argument is that, as an atheist, she shouldn’t be very grief-stricken about losing her pregnancy/premature daughter, because you think that she, as an atheist, should view her daughter merely as a “speck of DNA” not worth grieving over.
So you think she is hypocritical to be asking for sympathy, when her worldview, if she took it consistently, would tell her, “oh, it’s just a speck of DNA, nothing to get upset about”.
Do I have this roughly right?
Elizabeth,
Right. In my final (“ETA”) line, I point out that phoodoo is ignoring the fact that people can be extremely sad even if there has been no “loss of a person.” A myriad of reasons to be sad.
BTW, over the weekend I saw a particularly harrowing new play by Ruby Rae Spiegel (a 23-year old playwright!) called “Dry Land” which covers a number of the various horrors associated with abortion.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/theater-dance/2015/10/06/company-one-theatre-dry-land-showcases-major-new-talent/oxq34OQgumXvCj1Pc6yNVL/story.html
I recommend it if it comes to your town.
“ Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn’t been good to you so far, which given your current circumstances seems more likely, consider how lucky you are that it won’t be troubling you much longer.”
People — praise Cthulhu — are people and not Christians.
Christians would never feel pain at rejection or failure or loss. What would be the point? This life is a brief interlude, best ended as quickly as possibly (without, of course, committing suicide).
When my Christian friends lose a child, I tell them how lucky they are. They should be dancing in the streets. Think how much pain the dead child has avoided.
phoodoo,
I’m not Lizzie (although I have played the Dame in a panto), but I suggest that anyone truly intending to comfort someone else should check their ego at the door. What some theists fail to realize is how much their beliefs reflect their ego. “I’m sorry for your loss.” and “Do you want to talk about it?” followed by shutting up and listening go a long way.
Probably, but once someone apologizes I let it go. We all make mistakes
phoodoo,
That still makes it about the person attempting to comfort and not the person being comforted. Stop talking about yourself and be there for the other person.
Absolutely. As a case in point, phoodoo might wonder why infertility causes great grief. Every monthly period is s further occasion for sadness.
DNA_Jock,
我同意
ETA offending comment moved to guano!
Exactly.
So isn’t it painful to people who have lost loved ones to hear Dawkins and Tyson and Sagan and the like talk about how there is nothing after death, that you molecules just spread into the universe? Do you condemn them for this, knowing it might cause grief to those who feel otherwise? Of course you don’t, there is nothing in the atheist code that has such sympathy.
Furthermore as atheist, when you meet someone who has grief (you know like because they are not pregnant so are as sad as someone whose child was murdered), do you comfort them by telling them, don’t worry, God loves you, and he has other purposes for you? Give me a frickin break, who do you guys think you are kidding.
Does this answer your question about why atheists are bigger hypocrites Lizzie?
Miserable comforters.
Patrick,
What if the other person is religious, and wants you to talk about God to comfort them? You will do this?
Sure Patrick.
Phoodoo, I did counselling for a living for seven years.
The universally recognized best method of comforting a grieving person is to be still and listen.
petrushka,
Are you saying that I have to pay you to get you to shut up?
phoodoo,
Is that like the Pirate Code?
You assume I would be interested in comforting you.
At any wage.
phoodoo,
Nope, but I sure won’t try to disabuse them of their beliefs in those circumstances. That would be almost as insensitive as proselytizing.
I’m pretty sure you know a boatload of people who would pay YOU to shut up, phoodoo, probably including every one of the people whom you call your friends, co-workers, etc.
Of course, I can’t be sure that you’re as repetitive, uncomprehending, self-centered, and antagonistic in real life as you bahvave here, but balance of probability …
Allan Miller,
More what you’d call “guidelines”….
If there’s a Pirate Code, there must be a Pirate Coder.
Patrick,
Heh. That was in my post originally! But then it would appear to confirm the existence of our sworn oaths of allegiance to tiny-speckism. Which of course we don’t talk about – Rule #1 in the Atheist Code.
I’m sure that WOULD be painful to some people.
Condemn? No. Prolly just roll my eyes. Condemning is more in your line, I think.
No, that would be really hypocritical, wouldn’t it, since I don’t believe that. As others have said, the thing to do is to express your sorrow for their loss, because whatever their religious beliefs (or lack of them), they’re likely to be sad.
For five years, I volunteered at a place called “The Childrens Room” where kids who’ve lost a parent or sibling hang out with other such kids. And parents/guardians hang in separate groups. In our training sessions, we were told not to get into religion at all. Not only is it dangerous ground, it’s not actually that helpful, even for religious folk. That’s not what they’re there for, and generally not what they need, which is community and a safe place to express themselves. http://www.childrensroom.org/
For someone like me, who is convinced this is the only life we have, such talk is welcoming and comforting. Death is the end for body and mind but not in the friends and family we leave behind or the fond memories they cherish and, perhaps a legacy of achievements others will benefits from. Release from a full and long life is not to be feared or avoided.
Of course a premature death can be a terrible tragedy for the immediate family, religious or not.
As others have mentioned, insensitively reeling off platitudes to a recently bereaved person is abhorrent, whenever such things are said without first having some idea of that person’s religious beliefs or lack of them. This is not what is happening when such matters are discussed in public. There’s quite a difference between discussing religion and atheism in general in some public forum and confronting a bereaved person in a one-to-one meeting.
There is no atheist code.
On the couple of recent occasions I have met someone recently bereaved, I mostly listened to what they wanted to say and I offered practical help with administration, etc. I was glad to help out when the offer was accepted in one case.
petrushka,
Heh again!
That is all covered by listening.
I’ve seen it in action recently. A family friend’s adult daughter choked to death during Thanksgiving dinner. In front of her children. I can hardly think of a more horrific death.
The family members did not ask for or want platitudes and homilies. But they did appreciate having people around willing to listen.