104 thoughts on “Thread to discuss the 3rd presidential debate”

  1. I thought hillary did….ok. She had no word of defense on the Clinton foundation, the inciiting of violence at trump events, or the deleted emails.

    Trump, of course, was predictably repulsive, and can’t defend one moment of his disgraceful existence.

  2. walto,

    I think the Clinton Foundation talk was way overblown to begin with, so she didn’t need to say much. Perhaps what she could have articulated before is that the money is not going to her, people seem to forget this. So, some Arabs give money to a charity they run. And Clinton wants to help that charity, for no other purpose other than to help that charity. Its not like the Saudis are giving money to the Clintons. Calling this pay-to-play is just nonsense rhetoric, because it is not a campaign contribution, its a contribution to a charity. The Clintons don’t use this money for themselves.

    Now if the accusation was that they are just using the money for themselves, and not for charity, then she might need to defend it more. But that is not the accusation-so its a pretty toothless criticism really.

    When Trump keeps saying, “Why doesn’t she give the money back, why doesn’t she give it back??” What the hell is his point? That people shouldn’t get help from this charity? Why?

  3. walto,

    Also, is there any evidence at all that Hillary has anything to do with the people who wanted to incite violence? Are they claiming she personally told them to?

  4. Donald’s campaign strategy lately has been to keep repeating that the reason he was able to get the tax breaks he did, or buy the China made steel that he did, was because Hillary didn’t do anything to change the laws to stop this.

    I think Hillary didn’t do a good enough job of responding to these silly criticisms. She should have said, “I was a Senator from New York, and Secretary of State. Do you think that gave me enough power to change the tax laws, or prevents firms from moving their jobs overseas?” The President barely has the power to do this without a majority from Congress, how could she have done this?

    She should have pointed out more how lame this excuse was for his own business decisions.

  5. phoodoo:
    Donald’s campaign strategy lately has been to keep repeating that the reason he was able to get the tax breaks he did, or buy the China made steel that he did, was because Hillary didn’t do anything to change the laws to stop this.

    I think Hillary didn’t do a good enough job of responding to these silly criticisms.She should have said, “I was a Senator from New York, and Secretary of State.Do you think that gave me enough power to change the tax laws, or prevents firms from moving their jobs overseas?”The President barely has the power to do this without a majority from Congress, how could she have done this?

    She should have pointed out more how lame this excuse was for his own business decisions.

    The thing is, the President doesn’t have that much more power. That’s why their ‘I’ve creat 45 billion, jobs, create Isis, and secure our borders’ is largely nonsense that candidates have to say every year. Obama can’t even get the Senate to consider a SCOTUS nomination.

  6. phoodoo:
    walto,

    Also, is there any evidence at all that Hillary has anything to do with the people who wanted to incite violence?Are they claiming she personally told them to?

    I take what I guess is the more defense lawyerly view on charges like this, that you at least have to deny them. I.e, you can say, “There was no pay for play–that’s ridiculous” or “I know nothing about any plan to incite violence at your rally. I think any such action would be outrageous and wrong.” I don’t think you can just pretend you didn’t hear the question.

    And if she or the DNC *IS* connected with that stuff, then she’s more Nixonian than I had believed. I really hope that stuff is false.

  8. walto: And if she or the DNC *IS* connected with that stuff, then she’s more Nixonian than I had believed. I really hope that stuff is false.

    Dream on. The guy featured on the videos and who immediately resigned in disgrace has had 350 visits to the White House in seven years, more than 40 directly with the president. That information available directly from publicly available visitor logs.

    I have no idea where this is going, but the guys doing it say worse is yet to come.

    I will leave it at that. To be continued.

  9. From another forum, I found:

    “He comes across as a man with no convictions. On the other hand, she has no indictments.”

  10. petrushka: Dream on. The guy featured on the videos and who immediately resigned in disgrace has had 350 visits to the White House in seven years, more than 40 directly with the president. That information available directly from publicly available visitor logs.

    Source?

    You saw the visitor logs?

  11. petrushka: Dream on. The guy featured on the videos and who immediately resigned in disgrace has had 350 visits to the White House in seven years, more than 40 directly with the president. That information available directly from publicly available visitor logs.

    Not exactly, the guy featured on the video in which he boasted about the things his group was doing was Foval. The group was led by Robert Creamer who the guy who had visited the White House.

    I think Foval’s defense is going to be that Billy Bush egged him on .

  15. walto: I’m not sure which campaign is more guilty of dirty tricks here though. Is posing as a Clinton volunteer in order to take secret videotapes ok?

    Is undercover investigation okay?

    There’s a nightclub a couple miles from my house that I drive by several ties a week.

    A few years ago it turned out to be owned and operated by the FBI. I forget what they were investigating.

    ABC News some years back sent a reporter to work at a Food Lion grocery store. They were investigating reports of unsanitary practices and selling old meat.

    Problem was, the reporter couldn’t get the meat dept manager to repackage old meat, and was caught on his own camera egging the manager on to do what he hoped to capture. Some unplesantness ensued.

    If anything like that occurred here, I don’t think the guys involved would have been ditched so quickly. And WTF is a convicted felon doing visiting the Whitehouse 350 times and talking directly with Obama.

    But I am not a big Trump fan and will not vote for him. But I enjoy a good fight. All journalists should be doing stuff like this, all the time, regardless of which party is in power.

  16. walto,

    After having read the story, I feel there is even less reason for Clinton to have to do any explaining. There is no indication she has done anything, and furthermore, I thought the allegations were that they were sending people pretending to be Trump supporters and acting crazy. Instead it sounds more like they were protestors against Trump-so isn’t that what lots of groups do? Protest people they don’t like?

  17. petrushka,

    He runs a democratic action committee. Why shouldn’t he be allowed to visit the White House? You think no one with a criminal record is allowed to visit the White House.

    I think Oliver North visiting the White House is a bigger crime.

  18. walto,

    I had been thinking for a while that it would be a funny tactic to have people pretend they were trump supporters, and just cheer every outrageously stupid thing he says, with overly zealous encouragement. Like when he calls someone a fat pig, they should start a song, “Fat pig, she’s a fat pig…make America great!!

    It would work because its totally believable.

  19. petrushka: Is undercover investigation okay?

    There’s a nightclub a couple miles from my house that I drive by several ties a week.

    A few years ago it turned out to be owned and operated by the FBI. I forget what they were investigating.

    ABC News some years back sent a reporter to work at a Food Lion grocery store. They were investigating reports of unsanitary practices and selling old meat.

    Problem was, the reporter couldn’t get the meat dept manager to repackage old meat, and was caught on his own camera egging the manager on to do what he hoped to capture. Some unplesantness ensued.

    If anything like that occurred here, I don’t think the guys involved would have been ditched so quickly. And WTF is a convicted felon doing visiting the Whitehouse 350 times and talking directly with Obama.

    But I am not a big Trump fan and will not vote for him. But I enjoy a good fight. All journalists should be doing stuff like this, all the time, regardless of which party is in power.

    Trump supporters are neither journalists nor FBI agents. They are parties just as interested in screwing the Clinton campaign as they whine that the Clinton campaign is interested in screwing them. They are running the same kind of operation that Nixon ran during the McGovern election.

    I don’t like that kind of crap coming from any campaign, sorry. Your post and phoodoo’s suggest to me that I’m an old fogy about this, however, and that the bar for decent behavior during a campaign has lowered to the point where if you don’t shoot somebody in the leg or higher, it’s OK.

  21. petrushka: If anything like that occurred here, I don’t think the guys involved would have been ditched so quickly. And WTF is a convicted felon doing visiting the Whitehouse 350 times and talking directly with Obama.

    But I am not a big Trump fan and will not vote for him. But I enjoy a good fight. All journalists should be doing stuff like this, all the time, regardless of which party is in power.

    Not sure,his wife is in Congress might explain some visits. I expect that white collar felons are not uncommon in the political realm.Heck, our state attorney general is under suspicion and maybe indictment for securities fraud.

  22. walto,

    What did I say that is like Nixon? Having people act as silly as trump supporters? I hardly think mocking their stupidity rises to the level of illegal dirty tricks.

  23. walto: Is posing as a Clinton volunteer in order to take secret videotapes ok?

    I believe it is against the law in DC to film a person without consent, O’Keefe has already been convicted in a previous case

  24. walto,

    You know the Daily Show set up a fake BBQ stand in North Carolina and refused to serve people who looked like they were gay, saying the new law allows them to do that. They were spoofing, to bring to light the horribleness of that law. Is that any different than what I said?

  25. walto: Trump supporters are neither journalists nor FBI agents.They are parties just as interested in screwing the Clinton campaign as they whine that the Clinton campaign is interested in screwing them.They are running the same kind of operation that Nixon ran during the McGovern election.

    I don’t like that kind of crap coming from any campaign, sorry.Your post and phoodoo’s suggest to me that I’m an old fogy about this, however, and that the bar for decent behavior during a campaign has lowered to the point where if you don’t shoot somebody in the leg or higher, it’s OK.

    I think your are wrong about being lowered, Roger Stone working for Trump has been doing this since the Nixon years,

  27. phoodoo:
    walto,

    You know the Daily Show set up a fake BBQ stand in North Carolina and refused to serve people who looked like they were gay, saying the new law allows them to do that.They were spoofing, to bring to light the horribleness of that law.Is that any different than what I said?

    That’s an interesting case. I don’t really know what to think about it. Re Nixon and dirty tricks, there was a large continuum. IIRC, the mastermind was a guy named Tuck. Some of them were little more than pranks. But I don’t like any of that stuff. It annoys me when people kick yard signs down.

    I’m a delicate flower.

    ETA: I suppose with the Daily Show, that IS a from of journalism.

  28. newton: I believe it is against the law in DC to film a person without consent, O’Keefe has already been convicted in a previous case

    I grew up in the south. It used to be against the law for a black person to take a seat in the front of the bus.

    It was illegal to wiretap newt gingrich’s phone, and the people who did it got some sort of slap on the wrist.But the New York Times was happy to publish the transcript.

    Breaking the law in it interest of changing laws or of exposing lawbreaking by people in power is an ancient and honorable tradition, regardless of whose ox is being gored. Even if it’s Trump.

    Pentagon Papers, for example. Torture by the Bush administration, for example.

    Anyone who thinks they are exempt from the laws that govern the little people.

  29. petrushka: I grew up in the south. It used to be against the law for a black person to take a seat in the front of the bus.

    It was illegal to wiretap newt gingrich’s phone, and the people who did it got some sort of slap on the wrist.But the New York Times was happy to publish the transcript.

    Breaking the law in it interest of changing laws or of exposing lawbreaking by people in power is an ancient and honorable tradition, regardless of whose ox is being gored. Even if it’s Trump.

    Pentagon Papers, for example. Torture by the Bush administration, for example.

    Anyone who thinks they are exempt from the laws that govern the little people.

    You think that’s what the Trump campaign was doing there? I wonder if it’s too late to get them a Nobel Prize for this year. Or at least a Pulitzer!

  30. walto: You think that’s what the Trump campaign was doing there? I wonder if it’s too late to get them a Nobel Prize for this year. Or at least a Pulitzer!

    Probably. But maybe he can win the Emmy that he claims he was denied due to vote rigging. For such a big dick, he has very small hands.

  31. walto: You think that’s what the Trump campaign was doing there? I wonder if it’s too late to get them a Nobel Prize for this year. Or at least a Pulitzer!

    Funny thing,Trump’s Foundation cut a check for $10,000. to the non profit which did the secret taping. Small world.

  32. I’m planning to vote for Jill Stein. Wouldn’t bother me if the front runners all went to jail.

    My first presidential vote went to George McGovern, after returning from Vietnam. I’ve never voted for a machine candidate. I dispise regime changers and interventionists. Don’t like Putin, but he’s not running my country.

  33. walto,

    Oh, I agree with you. Taking down people’s yard signs would make me angry. I don’t like any of that stuff, I am not endorsing it. Anything that is deceptive and lying bothers me. And if a candidate knowingly instructs someone to do that, I can’t trust them to run our country.

    I don’t think I was advocating any such dishonesty. I guess I don’t feel if a guy wants to go to a Trump rally and cheer every time Trump says something stupid, that is a lie. Its a parody, but not really a lie.

    Likewise, I don’t really like Hillary that much, but I don’t think she encouraged anyone to go to his rallies and incite violence. Yes, I would have a problem with that. But if someone in the organization said, go to Trump rallies and protest, well, protesting is a form of democracy. So I am not so sure what there is for her to apologize for on this one.

    By the way, I hate when people get caught doing bad things, and then just apologize, as if that means something.

  34. petrushka: My first presidential vote went to George McGovern,

    Me too. Although when I was too young to vote, somebody convinced me to get “neat and clean for Gene.” Bobby Kennedy blew up that campaign, though.

    I voted for Jill Stein once. Not this year, though.

  35. phoodoo: By the way, I hate when people get caught doing bad things, and then just apologize, as if that means something.

    I know what you mean, but it beats not apologizing, anyhow. An admission of fault is…..something.

  37. Trump’s 100mil is kicking the shit out of Billary’s billion.

    Enough said.

    Oh, and 10~25K at Trump rallies vs. 600~3000 .Billary yawns.

    Hillary for chief cook at Guantanamo! After all, she does have experience ‘cookin’ for the UN.

    Bruhahahahhahahah.

  38. The Epstein Trump connection is intriguing. Ghislaine Maxwell? Does the possibility of Trump having been friendly with a known paedophile have any bearing on the election?

  39. Steve:
    Trump’s 100mil is kicking the shit out of Billary’s billion.

    Enough said.

    Oh, and 10~25K at Trump rallies vs. 600~3000 .Billary yawns.

    Hillary for chief cook at Guantanamo! After all, she does have experience ‘cookin’ for the UN.

    Bruhahahahhahahah.

    Good to get those laughs in now.

  40. I see Michael Moore has recently made a movie, which, I infer from the reviews I read, is an effort to get Trump’s supporters to reflect on their choice.

  41. walto,

    Now you see what I mean. You could say any of the dumbest shit you could think of at a trump rally, and no one would be surprised and suspect you weren’t really a Trump supporter.

    “Kill liberal babies! Feed them to pitbulls!! Woman who don’t like rape are liars! Make America great! Not fat pigs allowed. Donald’s fat is great fat! USA, USA USA!”

  42. phoodoo:
    walto,

    Now you see what I mean.You could say any of the dumbest shit you could think of at a trump rally, and no one would be surprised and suspect you weren’t really a Trump supporter.

    “Kill liberal babies!Feed them to pitbulls!! Woman who don’t like rape are liars! Make America great! Not fat pigs allowed. Donald’s fat is great fat! USA, USA USA!”

    Can’t disagree with that, phoodoo. Consider this: Bill is the devil; Hillary is Eve. (Something I’m told Trump regularly recites at his rallies to whip up his crowds of deplorables.)

    Here it is as reimagined by Sassy Trump:

    https://youtu.be/-XozADlYqVE

  43. walto,

    I can imagine the crowd when he was giving that speech, getting more bored by the minute. They all were thinking, ok, enough with the long analogies that make us have to sit still, just start calling people names for crying out loud. I miss WWF, who needs this theater crap.

  44. phoodoo,

    Trumps Walk of fame star was defaced with a swastica. We have no way of knowing if that was by a supporter or a critic..

  46. Alan Fox:
    I see Michael Moore has recently made a movie, which, I infer from the reviews I read, is an effort to get Trump’s supporters to reflect on their choice.

    Does it have the views of the O’Keef videos? Any felonies discussed?

  48. petrushka: Does it have the views of the O’Keef videos? Any felonies discussed?

    Don’t know about any O’Keef videos. Nor have I seen Moore’s film. I just caught the reviews which sounded positive.

  49. It always strikes me in these kinds of discussion how few people seem to care about policies and platforms. That’s the only reason I vote for any candidate – whether or not I support their proposed policies and platforms. That might be a problem if, like during Obama vs Romney, there wasn’t that much of a difference between platforms and policy statements, but in this election the positions, platforms and proposed policies couldn’t be more different and contradictory.

    What difference does it make who “won” a debate if one candidate promotes policies you agree with, and the other promotes policies you disagree with? Has the election process been reduced to a contest about which candidate is more likeable, or which one has the fewest scandals or says the least offensive or stupid things?

  50. William J. Murray:
    It always strikes me in these kinds of discussion how few people seem to care about policies and platforms.That’s the only reason I vote for any candidate – whether or not I support their proposed policies and platforms.That might be a problem if, like during Obama vs Romney, there wasn’t that much of a difference between platforms and policy statements, but in this election the positions, platforms and proposed policies couldn’t be more different and contradictory.

    What difference does it make who “won” a debate if one candidate promotes policies you agree with, and the other promotes policies you disagree with?Has the election process been reduced to a contest about which candidate is more likeable, or which one has the fewest scandals or says the least offensive or stupid things?

    Hahaha. Policies.

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