The Law of Conservation of Information is defunct

About a year ago, Joe Felsenstein critiqued a seminar presentation by William Dembski, “Conservation of Information in Evolutionary Search.” He subsequently discussed Dembski’s primary source with me, and devised a brilliant response, unlike any that I had considered. This led to an article, due mostly to Felsenstein, though I contributed, at The Panda’s Thumb. Nine days after it appeared, Dembski was asked in a radio interview whether anyone was paying attention to his technical work. Surely a recipient of

qualifies as a someone. But Dembski changed the topic. And when the question came around again, he again changed the topic. Mind you, this isn’t how I know that Felsenstein blasted conservation of “information,” which is not information, in evolutionary “search,” which does not search. It’s how I know that Dembski knows.

Or, I should say, it’s how I first knew. The Discovery Institute has since employed Dembski’s junior coauthor, Winston Ewert, to quietly replace various claims, including the most sensational of them all (Dembski and Marks, “Life’s Conservation Law: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information,” 2010; preprint 2008):

Though not denying Darwinian evolution or even limiting its role in the history of life, the Law of Conservation of Information shows that Darwinian evolution is inherently teleological. Moreover, it shows that this teleology can be measured in precise information-theoretic terms.

Felsenstein realized that we could apply their measure to a simple model of evolution by natural selection, devoid of purpose, and obtain a large quantity. According to the model, evolution begins with a random genotype, and ends with a genotype fitter than all of its neighbors. The neighbors of a genotype are those that can arise from it by mutation in a single point. In each step of the evolutionary process, a genotype is replaced by the fittest of its neighboring genotypes. The overall result of evolution is a sequence of genotypes that is unconstrained in how it begins, and highly constrained in how it ends. Each genotype in the sequence is not only fitter than all of the genotypes that precede it, but also fitter than all of their neighbors. That is, evolution successively constrains the genotype to smaller and smaller subsets of the space of genotypes. The final genotype is at the very least fitter than all of its neighbors. Equivalently, the minimum degree of constraint is the neighborhood size. Dembski and Marks mistake this for the degree of teleology (purpose) in evolution, and refer to it as active information. The gist of “conservation of information” is that teleology comes only from teleology. As Dembski said in his seminar presentation:

If you will, the teleology of evolutionary search is to produce teleology.

Considering that the neighborhood size indicates only how many, not at all which, genotypes are eliminated in a single step of evolution, there can be no argument that constraint implies purpose.1 Ewert does not hazard an overt reply, but in fact responds by downgrading “active information” from a measure of teleology to a measure of bias. The new significance of “conservation of information” is this: if the constraint, er, bias of a natural process is not due to design, then nature itself must be constrained, er, biased.2 We have it from Ewert, writing on behalf of Dembski and Marks, that:

Of course, Darwinian evolution is not a teleological process and does not search for a goal [e.g., birds…] Whatever search or process might be in play, … it produces birds much more often than chance would otherwise lead us to predict. It is this bias towards producing a bird that we call active information. […] Having postulated Darwinian evolution, … the fact that birds exist has to be explained in terms of the initial configuration of the universe. The universe must have begun with a large amount of active information with respect to the target of birds.

Although “information” stumbles on, searching for brains to eat, the vital principle has departed from the Law of Conservation of Information (LCI). No more does LCI show what it shows. The credit for dispatching teleology goes entirely to Joe Felsenstein. You should have a look at his latest, “Why ID Advocates Downplay Our Disagreement With Them,” before watching me deliver a round to the frontal lobe of the Conservation of Information Theorem.

The credit for keeping things surreal goes entirely to the Discovery Institute. Replacing Dembski, a full-time senior fellow, with Ewert in an exchange with a renowned evolutionary geneticist is beyond bizarre. But it is perhaps no accident that the authorship of the response serves the same purpose as its rhetorical tactics, namely, to conceal the presence of huge concessions. What Ewert does, avoiding all signs of what he’s doing, is to undertake salvage of Dembski’s treatment of LCI in Being as Communion: A Metaphysics of Information (2014). Rather than identify a source, he speaks from authority. Rather than replace terms that convey precisely the misconceptions in the book, he explains matter-of-factly that they don’t mean what they seem to say. And rather than admit that Felsenstein and I set him and his colleagues straight on the meanings, Ewert proclaims that “These Critics of Intelligent Design Agree with Us More Than They Seem to Realize.” The way he trumps up agreement is to treat a single section of our article, which merely reiterates an old point regarding the smoothness of fitness landscapes, as though it were the whole. We actually focus on an arbitrary, and hence arbitrarily rough, landscape.

LCI, putatively a law of nature, putatively has a mathematical foundation. According to Being as Communion (p. 148):

A precise theoretical justification for the claim that natural selection is inherently teleological comes from certain recent mathematical results known as Conservation of Information (CoI) theorems.

Now the claim is that natural selection is inherently biased, and that something must account for the bias — either design or the initial “configuration” of the Universe (wink wink, nudge nudge) — given that bias is conserved. In short, CoI still applies, with the understanding that I is for bIas. Dembski places his work in the context of earlier analysis of search, and mentions a sometime theorist you’ve heard of before (p. 151):

Computer scientist Thomas English, in a 1996 paper, also used the term “Conservation of Information,” though synonymously with the then recently proved results by Wolpert and Macready about No Free Lunch (NFL). In English’s version of NFL, “the information an optimizer gains about unobserved values is ultimately due to its prior information of value distributions.”

I actually proved an NFL theorem more general than that of Wolpert and Macready, and used the term “conservation of information” to characterize an auxiliary theorem. Although I got the math right, what I wrote about it in plain language was embarrassingly wrong. I happened to emend my online copy of the paper a month before Dembski’s book appeared, adding a preface titled “Sampling Bias Is Not Information.” So, while it definitely was Felsenstein who left Dembski et al. no choice but to abandon teleology, it may be that I had some influence on their choice of a new position. In any case, it falls to me to explain why they are embarrassingly wrong in what they claim about math that they have gotten right.

The right approach, for a general readership, is to address only what is most obviously wrong, and to put as much as possible into pictures. We’ll be looking at broken sticks. We’ll even watch them breaking randomly to pieces. This is how Dembski et al. see the biases of an evolutionary process being determined, in the absence of design. CoI tells us something about the random length of a particular segment, selected before the stick breaks. But Felsenstein and I selected an outcome after modeling the evolutionary process. We targeted an outcome for which the bias was large. The bias was not large because we targeted the outcome. Even if we pretend that a broken stick determined the bias of the evolutionary process, CoI does not apply. The theorem that does apply has no name. It is the solution to Exercises 666-667 in a highly respected text of the 19th Century, Choice and Chance. Given that it bears the Number of the Beast, and comes from the Reverend William Allen Whitworth, I’m tempted to call it the Revelation Theorem. But I’ll avoid giving offense, and refer instead to the Broken Stick Theorem.

Breaking sticks

Dembski et al. believe that CoI applies to all physical events that scientists target for investigation. The gist of their error is easy to understand. A scientist is free to investigate any event whatsoever after observing what actually occurs in nature. But the CoI theorem assumes that a particular event is targeted prior to the existence of a process. This is appropriate when an engineer selects a process in order to generate a prespecified event, i.e., to solve a given problem. It is no coincidence that the peer-reviewed publications of Dembski et al. are all in the engineering literature. The assumption of the theorem does not hold when a scientist works in the opposite direction, investigating an event that tends to occur in a natural process. Put simply, there is a difference between selecting a process to suit a given target and selecting a target to suit a given process. The question, then, is just how big the difference is. How badly wrong is it to say that the CoI theorem characterizes conservation of bias in nature? Fortunately, the error can be conveyed accurately with pictures. What we shall see is not conservation, but instead unbounded growth, of the maximum bias (“active information”).


ETA: Text between the horizontal rules is an improved introduction to the technical material, developed in discussion here at TSZ. It comes verbatim from a comment posted a week ago. I’ve made clear all along my intent to respond to feedback, and improve the post. However, I won’t remove any of the original content, because that’s too easily spun into a retraction.

Dembski et al. represent natural processes abstractly. In their math, they reduce the evolutionary process to nothing but the chances of its possible outcomes. The CoI theorem is indifferent to what the possible outcomes actually are, in physical reality, and how the process actually works, that the outcomes should have the chances of occurrence that they do. Here I assume that there are only 6 possible outcomes, arbitrarily named 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The possible outcomes could be anything, and their names say nothing about what they really are. Each of the possible outcomes has a chance of occurrence that is no less than 0 (sure not to occur) and no greater than 1 (sure to occur). The chances of the possible outcomes are required to add up to 1.

As far as the CoI theorem is concerned, an evolutionary process is nothing but a list of chances that sum to 1. I’ll refer to the list of chances as the description of the process. The first chance in the description is associated with the possible outcome named 1, the second chance in the description is associated with the possible outcome named 2, and so forth. The list

    \[.1, \quad .3, \quad .1, \quad .2, \quad .1, \quad .2\]

is a valid description because each of the numbers is a valid chance, lying between 0 and 1, and because the total of the chances is 1. We can picture the description of the evolutionary process as a stick of length 1, broken into 6 pieces.

[Need a new figure here.]

Naming the segments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, from left to right, the length of each segment indicates the chance of the possible outcome with the corresponding name. Consequently, the depiction of the evolutionary process as a broken stick is equivalent to the description of the process as a list of the chances of its possible outcomes.

You perhaps wonder how I would depict the evolutionary process as a broken stick if a “possible” outcome had absolutely no chance of occurring. And the answer is that I could not. There is no segment of length 0. In the CoI theorem, however, chances precisely equal to 0 are effectively impossible. Thus it is not misleading to say that Dembski et al. reduce the evolutionary process to a broken stick.

There are infinitely many ways to break our metaphorical stick into a given number of segments. Averaging over all of them, the lengths of the segments are

    \[\frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{6}.\]

That is, in the average description of an evolutionary process, the possible outcomes are uniform in their chances of occurrence. Dembski et al. usually advocate taking uniform chances as the standard of comparison for all processes (though they allow for other standards in the CoI theorem). Dembski and Marks go much further in their metaphysics, claiming that there exist default chances of outcomes in physical reality, and that we can obtain knowledge of the default chances, and that deviation of chances from the defaults is itself a real and objectively measurable phenomenon. Although I want to limit myself to illustrating how they have gone wrong in application of CoI, I must remark that their speculation is empty, and comes nowhere close to providing a foundation for an alternative science. Otherwise, I would seem to allow that they might repair their arguments with something like the Broken Stick Theorem.

Taking uniform chance as the standard to which all evolutionary processes are compared, we naturally arrive at an alternative representation. We begin by writing the standard description a bit differently, multiplying each of the chances by 1.

    \[1 \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad 1 \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad 1 \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad 1 \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad 1 \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad 1 \times \frac{1}{6}.\]

Now we can write any description whatsoever by adjusting the multipliers, while leaving the fractions 1/6 just as they are. The trick is to multiply each of the chances in the description by 1, but with 1 written as 6 \times 1/6. For instance, the description

    \[\frac{1}{24}, \quad \frac{1}{3}, \quad \frac{1}{12}, \quad \frac{1}{4}, \quad \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{1}{8}\]

is equivalent to

    \[\frac{6}{24} \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{3} \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{12} \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{4} \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{6} \times \frac{1}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{8} \times \frac{1}{6}.\]

The multipliers

    \[\frac{6}{24}, \quad \frac{6}{3}, \quad \frac{6}{12}, \quad \frac{6}{4}, \quad \frac{6}{6}, \quad \frac{6}{8}\]

are the biases of the process, relative to the standard in which the chances are uniformly 1/6. The process is biased in favor of an outcome when the bias is greater than 1, and biased against an outcome when the bias is less than 1. For instance, the process is biased in favor of outcome 4 by a factor of 6/4 = 1.5, meaning that the chance of the outcome is 1.5 times as great as in the standard. Similarly, the process is biased against outcome 1 by a factor of 24/6 = 4, meaning that the chance of the outcome is 6/24 = 0.25 times as great as in the standard. The uniform standard is unbiased relative to itself, with all biases equal to 1.

The general rule for obtaining the biases of an evolutionary process, relative to the uniform standard, is to multiply the chances by the number of possible outcomes. With 6 possible outcomes, this is equivalent to scaling the the broken stick to a length of 6. We gain some clarity in discussion of CoI by referring to the biases, instead of the chances, of the evolutionary process. The process is metaphorically a broken stick, either way. Whether the segment lengths are biases or chances is just a matter of scale. We shall equate the length of the stick to the number of outcomes, and thus depict the biases of the process, for and against the possible outcomes corresponding to the segments.


To make the pictures clear, we assume that the evolutionary process has only 6 possible outcomes. Let’s name the possibilities 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. The process is unbiased if none of the possibilities has a greater chance of occurring than does any other, in which case the chance of each possible outcome is 1/6. According to Dembski et al., if we deny that the biases of the process are due to design, then we essentially say that a stick of length 6 broke randomly into 6 segments, and that the lengths of the segments determined the biases. Suppose that the length of the 3rd segment of the broken stick is 2. Then the evolutionary process is biased in favor of outcome 3 by a factor of 2. The chance of the outcome is

    \[2 \times \frac{1}{6} = \frac{1}{3}.\]

Suppose that the length of the 5th segment is 1/4. Then the process is biased against outcome 5 by a factor of 4, and the chance of the outcome is

    \[\frac{1}{4} \times \frac{1}{6} = \frac{1}{24}.\]

These biases are what Dembski et al. refer to as active information. The term, in and of itself, begs the question of whether something actively formed the process with bias in favor of a desired outcome.


ETA: Text between the horizontal rules comes from an earlier attempt at improving the introduction to the technical material, developed in discussion here at TSZ. I’ve quoted a comment posted 17 days ago.

Dembski et al. do not allow that such deviations from the supposedly “natural” default of uniform chance might be brute facts of physical reality. There must be a reason for bias. If we do not allow that bias is possibly due to design of the process to serve a purpose, then Dembski et al. force on us the view that bias itself arises by chance. (This is multifariously outrageous, but for reasons that are not clearly tied to their math.) That is, the chances of the possible outcomes of the evolutionary process are determined by an antecedent process, which is also random. Talk about the chances of chances gets very confusing, very fast. So I say instead that the evolutionary process is randomly biased by a process that occurs before it does. The biases of the evolutionary process are just the chances of the 6 possible outcomes of the evolutionary process, multiplied by 6. Setting the chances randomly is equivalent to setting the biases randomly.

The broken stick is a conventional metaphor for probabilities that are themselves set randomly. (I follow Dembski in reserving the word chance for the probability of a physically random outcome.) The random lengths of the segments of the stick are the probabilities. The stick is ordinarily of unit length, because the probabilities must sum to 1. To visualize random biases, instead of random chances, I need only multiply the length of the stick by the number of possible outcomes, 6, and randomly break the stick into 6 pieces. Then the biases sum to 6.

I stipulate that the biasing process, i.e., stick breaking, is uniform, meaning that all possible biases of the evolutionary process are equally likely to arise. A tricky point is that Dembski et al. allow for uniform biasing, but do not require it. The essential justification of my approach is that I need consider only something, not everything, that they allow in order to demonstrate that the theorem does not apply to scientific investigation. What I consider is in fact typical. The uniform biasing process is the average of all biasing processes. Thus there can be no objection to my choice of it.

Dembski et al. refer to all random processes as “searches.” The term is nothing but rhetorical assertion of the conclusion they want to draw. The stick-breaking “search” (process), which determines the biases of the evolutionary “search” (process), is a visualization of what they call a “search for a search.” Dembski et al. allow for the biasing process itself to be biased by an antecedent process, in which case there is a “search for a search for a search.” In Being as Communion, Dembski avoids committing to Big Bang cosmology, and indicates that the regress of searches for searches might go back forever in time. Fortunately, we need not enter a quasi-mystical quagmire to get at a glaring error in logic.


Animation 1. In the analysis of Dembski, Ewert, and Marks, the biases of an evolutionary process are like control knobs, either set by design, or set randomly by another process. The random biasing process is like a stick breaking into pieces. The biases of an evolutionary process are the lengths of the segments of a broken stick. Here the number of possible outcomes of the evolutionary process is 6, and a stick of length 6 breaks randomly into 6 segments. No segmentation is more likely than any other. Before the stick starts breaking, we expect any given segment to be of length 1. But when a scientist investigates an evolutionary process, the stick has already broken. The scientist may target the outcome for which the bias is greatest, i.e., the outcome corresponding to the longest segment of a broken stick. With 6 possible outcomes, the expected maximum bias is 2.45. Generalizing to n possible outcomes, the expected maximum bias of a randomly biased evolutionary process is a logarithmic function of n. The quantity grows without bound as the number of possible outcomes of evolution increases. The Conservation of Information Theorem of Dembski et al. tells us that the greater the bias in favor of an outcome specified in advance, the less likely the bias is to have arisen by breaking a stick, no matter how many the possible outcomes of the evolutionary process. It depends on an assumption that does not hold in scientific study of evolution.

In the most important case of CoI, all possible segmentations of the stick have equal chances of occurring. Although the segments almost surely turn out to be different in length, they are indistinguishable in their random lengths. That is, the chance that a segment will turn out to be a given length does not depend on which segment we consider. This is far from true, however, if the segment that we consider depends on what the lengths have turned out to be. Dembski et al. neglect the difference in the two circumstances when they treat their theorem as though it were a law of nature. Here’s an example of what CoI tells us: the probability is at most 1/2 that the first segment’s length will turn out to be greater than or equal to 2. More generally, for any given segment, the probability is at most 1/b that the segment’s length with turn out to be greater than or equal to b. This holds for sticks of all lengths n, broken into n segments. Recall that the random segment lengths are the random biases of the evolutionary process. CoI says that the greater the bias in favor of an outcome specified in advance, the less likely the bias is to have arisen by breaking a stick. The result is not useful in implicating design of biological evolution, as it assumes that an outcome was targeted in advance. To apply CoI, one must know not only that an outcome was targeted prior to the formation of the evolutionary process, but also which of the possible outcomes was targeted.3

Figure 2. In this frame from Animation 1, the segments of 20 broken sticks are colored according to their original positions. The expected length of each segment is 1, though the random lengths are highly variable. According to CoI, the probability is at most 1/2 that the length of the blue segment will turn out to be 2 or greater. More generally, for any given segment, the probability is at most 1/b that the length of the segment will turn out to be greater than or equal to b. This does not hold if we specify a segment in terms of the outcome of the random segmentation of the stick. In particular, CoI does not apply to the longest segment.

Figure 3. In this frame from Animation 1, the segments of each of the 20 broken sticks have been sorted into ascending order of length, and recolored. The expected length of the longest (red) segment is 2.45. By the Broken Stick Theorem, the probability is .728 that at least one of the segments is of length 2 or greater. By misapplication of CoI, the probability is at most 1/2. For a stick of length n, the probability is greater than 1/2 that at least one of the n segments exceeds \ln n in length. There is no limit on the ratio of probability 1/2 to the faux bound of 1/\ln n.

The Broken Stick Theorem tells us quite a bit about the lengths of segments. What is most important here is that, for any given length, we can calculate the probability that one or more of the segments exceeds that length. For instance, the probability is 1/2 that at least one of the segments is of length 2.338 or greater. If you were to misapply CoI, then you would say that the probability would be no greater than 1/2.338, which is smaller than 1/2. A simple way to measure the discrepancy is to divide the actual probability, 1/2, by the CoI bound, 1/2.338. The result, 1.169, is small only because the illustration is small. There is no limit on how large it can be for longer sticks. Let’s say that the stick is of length n, and is broken into n segments. Then the probability is greater than 1/2 that at least one of the segments exceeds \ln n in length. Here \ln n is the natural logarithm of n. The details are not important. What matters is that we can drive the faux bound of 1 / \ln n arbitrarily close to 0 by making n large, while the correct probability remains greater than 1/2.

Cool, but nonessential: The relation of the expected length of the i-th longest segment of a broken stick to the harmonic numbers. Here E[B_{(i)}] is the expected value of B_{(i)}, the i-th greatest of the random segment lengths (biases). As it happens, the notation E[\cdot], widely used in probability and statistics, was introduced by William Allen Whitworth, who derived the Broken Stick Theorem.

    \begin{align*} E[{B}_{(6)}] &= \frac{1}{1} + \frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{4} + \frac{1}{5} + \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6\\ E[{B}_{(5)}] &= \phantom{\frac{1}{1} +\;\,} \frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{4} + \frac{1}{5} + \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6 - \mathcal{H}_1\\ E[{B}_{(4)}] &= \phantom{\frac{1}{1} + \frac{1}{2} +\;\, } \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{4} + \frac{1}{5} + \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6 - \mathcal{H}_2 \\ E[{B}_{(3)}] &= \phantom{\frac{1}{1} + \frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{3} +\;\, } \frac{1}{4} + \frac{1}{5} + \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6 - \mathcal{H}_3 \\ E[{B}_{(2)}] &= \phantom{\frac{1}{1} + \frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{4} +\;\, } \frac{1}{5} + \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6 - \mathcal{H}_4 \\ E[{B}_{(1)}] &= \phantom{\frac{1}{1} + \frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{4} + \frac{1}{5} +\;\, } \frac{1}{6} = \mathcal{H}_6 - \mathcal{H}_5 \\ E[{B}_{(1)}] + \cdots + E[{B}_{(6)}] &= \frac{1}{1} + \frac{2}{2} + \frac{3}{3} + \frac{4}{4} + \frac{5}{5} + \frac{6}{6} = 6 \end{align*}

For large n, \mathcal{H}_n \approx \ln n + \gamma, where \gamma \approx 0.5772 is the Euler-Mascheroni constant. So the expected maximum bias (“active information”) of a randomly biased process is logarithmic in the number of possible outcomes. For large n,

    \[P(B_{(n)} > \ln n) \approx 1 - \frac{1}{e} \approx .6321.\]

The derivation is straightforward, but not brief. I decided that the loose bound

    \[P(B_{(n)} > \ln n) > \frac{1}{2}\]

better serves present purposes.

Rather than simply argue that the analysis of Dembski et al. does not apply, I have identified a comparable analysis that does apply, and used it to quantify the error in misapplying their analysis. The expected maximum bias (“active information”) for a randomly biased process (“search”) grows without bound as the size of the space of possible outcomes (“search space”) increases. For n possible outcomes, the probability is greater than 1/2 that the maximum bias exceeds \ln n. According to CoI, the probability is at most 1 / \ln n that the bias in favor of a given outcome is \ln n or greater. The discrepancy is entirely a matter of whether a possible outcome is targeted in advance of generating the process (“hit this”), or the most probable outcome of the process is targeted after the fact (“this is what it hits”). It should be clear that a scientist is free to do the latter, i.e., to investigate the most probable outcome of a process observed in nature.4 In Dembskian terms, the active information measure permits us to inspect the distribution of arrows shot into a wall by a blind archer, and paint a target around the region in which the density of arrows is greatest. There is no requirement that the target have the detachable specification that Dembski emphasized in his earlier writings.

Why a bug is not a weasel

In 1986, Richard Dawkins published The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design, a response to William Paley’s Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity; Collected from the Appearances of Nature (1802). Dembski’s career in ID is largely a response to Dawkins. Indeed, the highlights are cooptations of ideas in The Blind Watchmaker. Dawkins characterizes objects that are complicated, and seemingly designed, as “statistically improbable in a direction that is specified not with hindsight.” Dembski elaborates on the self-same property in The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities (1998), taking it as information imparted to objects by design. A not-with-hindsight specification is, in his parlance, detachable from the specified event (set of objects), called the target. Dembski usually refers to complicatedness as complex specified information or specified complexity, but sometimes also as specified improbability. The last term gives the best idea of how it contrasts with active information, the elevated probability of an event not required to have a detachable specification. In No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Information, he states a Law of Conservation of Information for specified complexity. (As explained below, in Appendix 1, Dembski and Marks have never mentioned this LCI, since stating their LCI for active information.)

[This section is not complete. I expect to add the guts over the next day or so, which means, as Joe can tell you, that you should expect them sometime in December. The gist is that specified complexity does not apply to Dawkins’ Weasel program. Dembski has made much of the meaningfulness of the target sentence. But the fact of the matter is that the model is the same for all target sentences comprising 28 uppercase letters and spaces. The target need not be specified. The measure of active information formalizes Dawkins’ comparison the model to the proverbial monkeys at typewriters. It does not stipulate that the target have a detachable specification. Dembski and Marks seem to have thought that it was transparently obvious that Dawkins had selected a desired outcome in advance, and had informed (programmed) the evolutionary process to “hit the target.”]

Dembski discusses the Weasel program on pp. 176-180 of Being as Communion. Here is how he describes “search,” in general, and the Weasel program, in particular:

In The Blind Watchmaker, Dawkins purports to show how natural selection creates information. In that book, he gives his famous METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL computer simulation. A historian or literary scholar, confronted with the phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL, would look to its human author, William Shakespeare, to explain it (the phrase is from Hamlet). An evolutionary theorist like Dawkins, by contrast, considers what it would take for an evolutionary process, simulated by an algorithm running on a computer, to produce this target phrase. All such algorithms consist of:

  1. an initialization (i.e., a place where the algorithm starts — for Dawkins the starting point is any random string of letters and spaces the same length as METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL);
  2. a fitness landscape (i.e., a measure of the goodness of candidate solutions — for Dawkins, in this example, fitness measures proximity to the target phrase so that the closer it is to the target, the more fit it becomes);
  3. an update rule (i.e., a rule that says where to go next given where the algorithm is presently — for Dawkins this involves some randomization to existing candidate phrases already searched as well as an evaluation of fitness along with selection of those candidates with the better fitness);
  4. a stop criterion (i.e., a criterion that says when the search has gone on long enough and can reasonably be ended — for Dawkins this occurs when the search has landed on the target phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL).

Note that in these four steps, natural selection is mirrored in steps (2) and (3).

It is important to note that Dembski addresses algorithms, or designs of computer programs, in engineering terms, and does not address models (implemented by computer programs) in scientific terms. This amounts to a presumption, not a demonstration, that the computational process (running program) is designed to generate a desired outcome.

[What I hope to get across here is why Dembski et al. cannot misconstrue Felsenstein’s model, called the GUC Bug, as he does Dawkins’ model. Those of you who argue with ID proponents should put the tired old Weasel out to pasture, or wherever it is that old Weasels like to go, and give Felsenstein’s Killer Bug a try.]

Figure 4. Felsenstein’s GUC Bug model contrasts starkly with Dembski’s travesty of Dawkins’ Weasel program. There can be no argument that Felsenstein designed the model to hit a target, because we define the target in terms of the modeled process. The model implemented by the Weasel program is not terribly different. But it is terribly easy to brush aside the model, and focus upon the program. Then the claim is that Dawkins designed the program to hit a specified target with its output.

ID the future

It is telling, I believe, that Dembski gave a detachable specification, “teleological system/agent,” of the target for biological evolution in his seminar talk, and that Ewert gives a detachable specification of the event that he targets, birds, in his response to Felsenstein and me. Ewert addressed active information in his master’s thesis (2010), but developed a new flavor of specified complexity for his doctoral dissertation (2013; sequestered until 2018). He, Dembski, and Marks have published several papers on algorithmic specified complexity (one critiqued here, another here). Dembski indicates, in a footnote of Being as Communion, that he and Marks are preparing the second edition of No Free Lunch (presumably without changing the subtitle, Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Information). My best guess as to what to make of this is that Dembski et al. plan to reintroduce specification in LCI Version 3. One thing is sure: ever mindful of the next judicial test of public-school instruction in ID, they will not breathe a hint that their publications on active information are any less weighty than gold. Ewert has demonstrated some of the revisionary tactics to come.

Appendix 1: Contradictory laws on the books

There actually have been two Laws of Conservation of Information. The first, featured in No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence (Dembski, 2002), addresses the specified complexity, also known as the specified improbability, of an event. The second, featured in Being as Communion: A Metaphysics of Information (Dembski, 2014), addresses the active information of a process, supposedly necessary for “unnatural” elevation in probability of an event. Specified improbability is loosely the opposite of elevated probability. Dembski and Marks evidently saw better than to claim that both are conserved, as they have said nothing about the first law since coming up with the second. Although Dembski opens Being as Communion by indicating that it is the last book of a trilogy that includes No Free Lunch, his only mention of specified complexity is in a footnote listing examples of “materialist-refuting logic.” He also notes that he and Marks are preparing the second edition of No Free Lunch. To include both specified complexity and active information in the cutlery is to serve up free lunch. It equips the ID theorist to implicate design when an event is too improbable (relative to a probability induced by specification), and also when an event is too probable (relative to a probability asserted a priori).

Appendix 2: Remembrance of information past

Here I give ample evidence that the “search” really was supposed to search for the targeted event, and that “active information” really was supposed to account for its probability of success. I begin with two technical abstracts. If you find yourself getting bogged down, then read just the text I’ve highlighted. The first is for Dembski‘s seminar talk (August 2014).

Conservation of Information (CoI) asserts that the amount of information a search outputs can equal but never exceed the amount of information it inputs. Mathematically, CoI sets limits on the information cost incurred when the probability of success of a targeted search gets raised from p to q (p < q), that cost being calculated in terms of the probability p/q. CoI builds on the No Free Lunch (NFL) theorems, which showed that average performance of any search is no better than blind search. CoI shows that when, for a given problem [targeted event], a search outperforms blind search, it does so by incorporating an amount of information determined by the increase in probability with which the search outperforms blind search. CoI applies to evolutionary search, showing that natural selection cannot create the information that enables evolution to be successful, but at best redistributes already existing information. CoI has implications for teleology in nature, consistent with natural teleological laws mooted in Thomas Nagel’s Mind & Cosmos.

Apart from hiding a law of nature under a bushel, this is not much different from the abstract of “Life’s Conservation Law: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information” [sic] (Dembski and Marks, 2010; preprint 2008).

LCI characterizes the information costs that searches incur in outperforming blind search. Searches that operate by Darwinian selection, for instance, often significantly outperform blind search. But when they do, it is because they exploit information supplied by a fitness function — information that is unavailable to blind search. Searches that have a greater probability of success than blind search do not just magically materialize. They form by some process. According to LCI, any such search-forming process must build into the search at least as much information as the search displays in raising the probability of success. More formally, LCI states that raising the probability of success of a search by a factor of q/p (> 1) incurs an information cost of at least log(q/p). [… Conservation of information] theorems provide the theoretical underpinnings for the Law of Conservation of Information. Though not denying Darwinian evolution or even limiting its role in the history of life, the Law of Conservation of Information shows that Darwinian evolution is inherently teleological. Moreover, it shows that this teleology can be measured in precise information-theoretic terms.

The putative measure of teleology is log(q/p), the active information of the evolutionary search. Dembski also says in Being as Communion that a search is informed to find a target, not merely biased in favor of it.

A precise theoretical justification for the claim that natural selection is inherently teleological comes from certain recent mathematical results known as Conservation of Information (CoI) theorems [p. 148].

Simply put, searches, in finding targets output information. At the same time, to find targets, searches need to input information [p. 152].

CoI shows that successful search (i.e., one that locates a target) requires at least as much input of information as the search by its success outputs [p. 150].

The information that goes into formation of the search, to increase the probability that it finds the target, is active information. Returning to “Life’s Conservation Law” (Section 1, “The Creation of Information”):

Nature is a matrix for expressing already existent information. But the ultimate source of that information resides in an intelligence not reducible to nature. The Law of Conservation of Information, which we explain and justify in this paper, demonstrates that this is the case.

Dembski and Marks hold that the ultimate source of active information, which increases the probability that evolutionary search achieves a purpose, is supernatural intelligence. However, Ewert tells us that “active information,” regarded as bias instead of information, is not necessarily due to design.

The conservation of information does not imply a designer. It is not a fine-tuning argument. It is not our intent to argue that all active information derives from an intelligent source. To do any of those things, we’d have to introduce metaphysical assumptions that our critics would be unlikely to accept. Conservation of information shows only that whatever success evolutionary processes might have, it is due either to the original configuration of the universe or to design.

This reversal is not due to Ewert. He’s obviously adapting arguments in Being as Communion, though without citing a source.

Notes

1. Felsenstein and I give the bound for just the fittest of all genotypes. I’ve extended it to the set of all local maxima of the fitness landscape. We classify haploid organisms into genotypes according to their DNA bases in L positions of the genome. The neighbors of a genotype are the 3L genotypes that differ from it in exactly one of the L positions. We require that the fittest genotype of each neighborhood of K=3L+1 genotypes be unique. It follows immediately that at most one genotype per neighborhood is a local maximum of the fitness landscape, and that the ratio of the total number of genotypes to the number of local maxima is at least K. Evolution begins with a random genotype, proceeds along the path of steepest ascent on the landscape, and ends at a local maximum. The minimum degree of constraint on the final genotype in the process is K. This is also the minimum “active information” with respect to (targeting) the set of local maxima. That is, the probability is q = 1 that the final genotype is a local maximum. The uniform probability of the set of local maxima is p \leq 1/K. Finally, the active information, without conversion to a log scale, is q / p \geq K.

2. Although the term bias is technically acceptable — indeed, I have used it, and will continue to use it in contexts where constraint is inappropriate — Ewert earns scorn by abusing it in the most predictable of ways. The problem with referring to the bias of a natural process is that the general reader gets the idea that the process “naturally” ought to have behaved in some other way, and deviates only because something biased it. And thus the Designer enters through the back door, not by evidence or reason, but instead by rhetorical device. Usually, the meaning of bias is only that some of the possible outcomes of a process have different chances of occurring than do others. If this were always the case, then I would refer instead to the non-uniformity of the probability distribution on outcomes. By the way, I am not conflating all probabilities in scientific models with physical chances, as Dembski et al. generally do. Much of what is modeled as random in biological evolution is merely uncertain, not attributed to quantum chance. The vitally important topic of interpretations of probability, which Dembski deflects with a false analogy to interpretations of quantum mechanics (Being as Communion, p. 157), will have to wait for another post.

3. CoI applies more generally to events, meaning sets of possible outcomes. But that’s irrelevant to the logic, or lack thereof. For readers familiar with Dembski’s measure of specified complexity, I should mention that the measure of active information permits us to target any event whatsoever. There is no requirement that the event have a detachable specification. Dembski’s arguments to the effect that an event with a detachable specification might as well have been prespecified are irrelevant here.

4. What it means to investigate the most probable outcome of a process observed in nature is highly problematic. In particular, we generally cannot say anything sensible about the chances of possible outcomes of a one-shot process. Complex processes that have occurred once, and cannot be repeated, are what commonly interest evolutionary biologists. I should make it clear that I don’t agree with Dembski et al. that evolutionary biologists should make claims about the chances of this, that, and the other. I’m essentially playing along, to show that their math is not even applicable.

228 thoughts on “The Law of Conservation of Information is defunct

  1. Alan Fox,

    Alan, it seems you are coming closer to the UD idea that you need to move away junk in order to maintain a topical discussion about one thing.

    So you are simply censuring in another fashion. Who decides what is on topic?

  2. phoodoo:
    Alan Fox,

    Alan, it seems you are coming closer to the UD idea that you need to move away junk in order to maintain a topical discussion about one thing.

    So you are simply censuring in another fashion.Who decides what is on topic?

    Of course,
    You do,
    phoodoo.

  3. Elizabeth: That’s a bit like saying: “ask 10 different doctors what the modern medical theory is and you’ll get 10 diferent answers”.

    That doesn’t make modern medical theory “vacuous”.It makes it full of detail and continuously growing.

    Because there is no such thing as a modern medical theory.

    Thank you for just making my point.

  4. Pedant,

    Your post is off topic. And meaningless. And totally boring. But I think it should stay.

    Its a time capsule which sums up your short list of contributions.

  5. phoodoo: Because there is no such thing as a modern medical theory.

    Thank you for just making my point.

    Well, I think it rather makes mine. Of course there is such a thing as modern medical theory, just as there is modern evolutinary theory. But it’s complex, and detailed, and leaves quite a lot of things unanswered, or answered ambiguously.

    So just as with modern evolutionary theory, if you ask someone what it is, you will almost certainly get a different answer from the next person. There’s the germ theory of disease, there’s immune theory, there’s genetics etc. But they all hang together as the modern model of disease.

    Same with evolutionary theory. There are some key elements: that all modern life forms descended from a common ancestral population; that that common ancestral population lived over three billion years ago; that it diversified into many branches; that the diversification resulted from reproduction with variability; that populations adapted to exploit the resources and resist the hazards of their current environment by means of differential heritable reproductive success; that heritable variance results from many things including horizontal gene-exchange.

    It doesn’t cover the origin of self-replicating proto-life forms, and there is lots of debate about the extent to which features that promote adaptive evolution themselves evolve by adaptive evolution at the level of the population, and also about vectors of inheritance other than DNA. There is also lots of debate over certain key changes e.g. from RNA to DNA-based inheritance, if that’s what happened, to eukaryotic life-forms, and to multicellular life forms. But there are lots of detailed and testable theories about these things.

    Hope that helps.

  6. OK, I’m playing catchup, having written, given, and graded a midterm exam (there are still those homeworks to grade …)

    Let me start with Telelogy, before we get to broken sticks. I am still puzzled by all the Dembski-Ewert-Marks talk of Teleology. In models of evolution, natural selection increases the proportion of offspring in the next generation who come from the fitter parents in the current generation. It does not consider how well the descendants of the resulting genotypes do many generations in the future, or what the composition of the population will be then.

    I don’t think that it helps to talk about Teleology when describing changes due to natural selection in one generation. I am even less sure what a “Teleological search for teleogy” is. When done by natural selection,this implies that there is a search for genotypes that make an organism that itself behaves teleologically. Does that apply to, say, plants?

    If a worm in the ocean has a nervous system that enables it to detect food, and it moves toward the food and eats it, does it help to call that Teleology?

    The talk of Teleology does not help us understand the evolutionary process. But I can see one search that is goal-oriented and leads towards a goal-oriented process. And that is the search Dembski, Ewert, and Marks have made for a theorem that shows that a teleological agent has designed the processes of nature.

  7. phoodoo:
    Elizabeth,

    How to disprove the theory of modern medicine ?

    Exactly phoodoo. In general, theories, especially big complex theories, are not falsifiable. Instead, you derive testable hypotheses from them, and the same is true of the ToE.

    But really, this is a derail. Can you start a thread on this topic if you want to discuss it?

  8. Elizabeth,

    But first you get to reply to your nonsense proposition that there is a theory of modern medicine? And then you get to say that theories don’t need to be falsifiable?

  9. Joe Felsenstein,

    The talk of teleology doesn’t help us understand the evolutionary process?

    What the hell Joe, that is the whole point of talking about it. If there is a teleological basis for the adaptation for organisms, then the entire Neo-Darwinist theory is thrown out the window. How can you dismiss this obvious point? Geez.

    Many people believe organisms change. Many also just don’t believe that it happens by accident, like your side claims (except when you don’t want to admit that you say it happens by accident, so you don’t look foolish explaining life).

  10. phoodoo:
    Elizabeth,

    But first you get to reply to your nonsense proposition that there is a theory of modern medicine?And then you get to say that theories don’t need to be falsifiable?

    If you start a new thread, I will move this derail into it.

  11. Elizabeth,

    There is nothing to start a thread about. You made a sily point that there is a so called “theory of modern medicine”, as if there could also be a theory about buildings, or a theory about cars, but that it is too vague to articulate.

    You then doubled down on the ridiculous to then claim that theories don’t need to be falsifiable.

    Who would want to follow you down such an absurd rabbit hole?

  12. Joe Felsenstein: The talk of Teleology does not help us understand the evolutionary process.

    But evolutionary theory is incomplete. Oops, left out Darwinian. Always include that for effect. Darwinian evolutionary theory is incomplete. Something is missing, and it just might be teleological laws of nature. Really, who has a right to stop our community from teaching biology students that in our public schools? There’s nothing inherently religious in teleology. Thomas Nagel “mooted” (Dembski’s term) teleology in Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False. He’s an atheist. Stuart Kauffman responded favorably to the book. He’s an atheist and a famous scientist. Why can’t we teach our students that some philosophers and scientists regard teleological laws of nature as a live possibility? How is it prohibited by the constitution of the United States?

    Joe Felsenstein: And that is the search Dembski, Ewert, and Marks have made for a theorem that shows that a teleological agent has designed the processes of nature.

    I genuinely do not intend to get us going on a discussion of the agenda of the Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture, for which Dembski works full-time. But I abhor calling a spade anything other than a spade. The ID Movement needs, when it next lands in federal court, evidence that there actually has been progress in developing teleological laws of nature. For instance, the institution that turned out Joe Felsenstein invited Dembski to give a talk that overtly addressed teleology in nature. I hope to show clearly that Dembski et al. actually have nothing to show. (I’ll keep honing my explanation until it is clear, should they not move on to something else.) The putative mathematical foundation for “conservation of information” does not serve its intended purpose. Dembski et al. have built their house of LCI on sinking sand.

    (Nose back to grindstone. I hated seeing your comment go without response.)

  13. phoodoo:
    Joe Felsenstein,

    The talk of teleology doesn’t help us understand the evolutionary process?

    What the hell Joe, that is the whole point of talking about it.If there is a teleological basis for the adaptation for organisms, then the entire Neo-Darwinist theory is thrown out the window.How can you dismiss this obvious point?Geez.

    Read the OP and my post more closely. The teleological processes that Dembski is describing are ordinary evolutionary processes, not some extra Design Intervention.

    I said that I did not see how describing ordinary natural selection as “teleological” helped us understand it.

    If you have thoughts on that issue, they would certainly be On Topic in this thread.

  14. Joe Felsenstein: In models of evolution, natural selection increases the proportion of offspring in the next generation who come from the fitter parents in the current generation. It does not consider how well the descendants of the resulting genotypes do many generations in the future, or what the composition of the population will be then.

    Are you saying that population genetics models are not predictive? Would I be wrong to say that genetic drift is more predictable?

  15. Joe Felsenstein: If a worm in the ocean has a nervous system that enables it to detect food, and it moves toward the food and eats it, does it help to call that Teleology?

    The talk of Teleology does not help us understand the evolutionary process.

    Let me see if I can help, though our resident teleology expert is KN.

    You’re conflating the teleological organism with the evolutionary process. If the organism is teleological it seems obvious this would be relevant to the process of evolution. It does not follow that the process of evolution itself is teleological (imo).

    On a side note, wasn’t there something Darwin wrote about his process being teleological [possibly to Asa Grey]? He was, after all, looking for laws.

  16. Joe Felsenstein,

    To say that some processes are teleological in evolution (just the ones you say that are), and then fail to explain how or why they became that way, is not very sophisticated.

    Its exactly the same problem as irreducible complex objects and the existence of an epigenetic system-your side just hand waves it off by saying, Well, I guess natural selection must caused it. Later we will find out how.

    Zero critical thinking involved.

  17. phoodoo:
    Joe Felsenstein,

    To say that some processes are teleological in evolution (just the ones you say that are), and then fail to explain how or why they became that way, is not very sophisticated.

    Its exactly the same problem as irreducible complex objects and the existence of an epigenetic system-your side just hand waves it off by saying, Well, I guess natural selection must caused it.Later we will find out how.

    Zero critical thinking involved.

    I have no idea what point you are making there. The issue I am raising is that Dembski takes cases where there are ordinary genotypes that have fitnesses. For the sake of argument he says, even if that is true, that is happening when the population changes by the ordinary processes of natural selection, recombination, mutation etc. is to be understood as not only a teleological search, but a “teleological search for teleology”.

    I don’t see any way that it is helpful to do that.

    Note, phoodoo, that the issue is not whether or not some other process operating that is teleolgical. Do you have something to say about the issue above, that has me disputing Dembski’s label of a “teleological search for teleology”?

  18. Mung: You’re conflating the teleological organism with the evolutionary process. If the organism is teleological it seems obvious this would be relevant to the process of evolution. It does not follow that the process of evolution itself is teleological (imo).

    Joe wasn’t as clear as he might have been. The point you make has been made many times before by evolutionary biologists. I know you’re aware of the teleonomy-teleology distinction, as long as you’ve been involved in the debate.

    I’m jumping in (and quickly out) because you and I have read Being as Communion, and Joe, to my knowledge, has not. I believe that Dembski is saying, in essence, that teleological systems/agents can arise only by teleological processes. That is why I wrote that the gist of “conservation of information” is that teleology comes only from teleology. I shouldn’t take time now to produce quotes. Before arguing with me about it, please double-check what he said. (An exchange with David Sloan Wilson leads into it. So there’s your search term.)

  19. Hi Tom, thanks for your remarks.

    I’ll confess that I wasn’t all that impressed with Being As Communion. To me it seemed like a case of, well, I owe them another book, so here it is. Or perhaps it just exceeded my cognitive capacities!

    I’ve probably said this before here at TSZ, so I doubt it will make much of a splash if I say it again, but I don’t know of any process that is not teleological.

    process: a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

    Perhaps we should cease to speak of evolution as a process.

  20. Elizabeth,

    Shame on you Lizzie. All of your complaining about the censorship at UD, and you moved my post to Guano, simply because it refuted your specious argument.

    Like I said earlier, your side holds the monopoly on hypocrisy. You have no justification for moving my post other than it refuted your point.

  21. OMagain,

    Why not let people judge for themselves then? There was no reason to move my post. Lizzie can dish it out, but she can’t take it very well.

  22. phoodoo:
    Alan Fox,

    Alan, it seems you are coming closer to the UD idea that you need to move away junk in order to maintain a topical discussion about one thing.

    Just hoping to keep the decks clear in case DEM or another ID proponent decides to offer a response to Tom’s OP.

    So you are simply censuring in another fashion.Who decides what is on topic?

    Whilst some might say your comments are worthy of censure, I’m not going to censor them.

    PS I moved your comment to guano, not Lizzie. I thought I’d appended a comment announcing this but apparently not. So apologies. If you think it was unwarranted, feel free to object in moderation issues thread.

  23. phoodoo:
    OMagain,

    Why not let people judge for themselves then?There was no reason to move my post.Lizzie can dish it out, but she can’t take it very well.

    Feel free to repost the content, phoodoo. I didn’t move it myself, and I’d be glad to respond.

  24. phoodoo wrote:

    Elizabeth: Not all epigenetic effects are beneficial though – how does it make an individual fitter to have epigenetic markers that predispose her to depression, say, inherited from a mother who became depressed?

    Elizabeth: The standard one: better able to produce viable offspring in the current environment.

    Yes.It’s the entire principle – the better a variant reproduces the more copies of that variant there will be in the next generation.

    Sorry, what problem are you referring to?

    Lizzie, try to concentrate!

    I’ll try 🙂 But I’m usually doing something else on the computer at the time, and linear thread formats sometimes make it hard to figure out what a comment is referring to (especially with my limited capacity to concentrate!)

    You don’t understand what problem is being referred to? In the earlier paragraph you said that not all inheritances make one fitter?

    The ability to better reproduce is simply judged by what has reproduced better. So someone with a epigenetic marker for depression is still able to reproduce just fine. So by what standard can you say that it doesn’t make them fitter?

    If it has no effect on reproduction, then it won’t have an effect on fitness. “Fitness” in the evolutionary sense, only refers to reproductive success. If being depressed makes you more likely to reproduce (a depressed woman might give up her career, for instance, or stop bothering with contraception) and the depression is heritable (either genetically, or epigenetically) it will make her “fitter” in the strict evolutionary sense, and, as long as it doesn’t also have effects that run counter to this (make her more likely to commit suicide, or whatever), then heritable characteristics that predispose people to depression will become more prevalent, which, to use Darwin’s metaphor, is another way of saying they will be “naturally selected”.

    It is, therefore it does. There is no way to call something less fit in a neo_Darwinian model, if that something continues to reproduce the same as others.

    Absolutely correct – but it is correct in a Darwinian model, not just a neo-Darwinian one. Fitness only refers to the capacity to reproduce effectively in the current environment. Sometimes it is expressed relative to other living individuals. sometimes relative to the genotype it is a variant of.

  25. Mung:
    I don’t know of any process that is not teleological.

    process: a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

    Perhaps we should cease to speak of evolution as a process.

    Mung, are you now going to equivocate over the definition of “process” like you did with “code” and “information”? Will you be telling us how the process of erosion that allows rivers to carve incised meanders is really directed by the Intelligent Meander Fairy?

    Process: a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a definite manner:
    the process of decay.

  26. phoodoo:
    Patrick,

    Ask ten different scientists what the modern evolutionary theory is, and you will get ten different answers.

    That is why it is such a vacuous theory.

    Then, according to the standard of your test, Christianity is extremely vacuous, because if 2 billion Christians were asked what Christianity is you’d get 2 billion different answers. Finding 2 Christians, let alone 2 billion, who agree on all of the details of their religious beliefs would be a hopeless task, even though Christians have a book (the Bible) that commands them what to believe.

    Of course you’re following the word of God to the letter, aren’t you phoodoo? LOL

  27. Commenting on

    Tom English:

    ,,,

    I’m jumping in (and quickly out) because you and I have read Being as Communion, and Joe, to my knowledge, has not. I believe that Dembski is saying, in essence, that teleological systems/agents can arise only by teleological processes. That is why I wrote that the gist of “conservation of information” is that teleology comes only from teleology. I shouldn’t take time now to produce quotes. Before arguing with me about it, please double-check what he said. (An exchange with David Sloan Wilson leads into it. So there’s your search term.)

    and

    Mung:
    Hi Tom, thanks for your remarks.

    I’ll confess that I wasn’t all that impressed with Being As Communion. To me it seemed like a case of, well, I owe them another book, so here it is. Or perhaps it just exceeded my cognitive capacities!

    I’ve probably said this before here at TSZ, so I doubt it will make much of a splash if I say it again, but I don’t know of any process that is not teleological.

    process: a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

    Perhaps we should cease to speak of evolution as a process.

    Yes, I have not read BAC. I assumed that it would add little or nothing in the way of technical arguments about evolution, but that the technical arguments would be found in Dembski. Ewert, and Marks’s freely-available papers.

    I asked whether calling ordinary evolutionary processes “teleological” or “teleological searches for teleology” helped us understand them.

    Now Mung wants to define “process” as by definition. something that happens “in order to achieve a particular end”. As others have noted here, that way erosion is not a process. Nor, I suppose would be Brownian Motion, or rusting, or evaporation. I looked at online dictionary definitions of “process”; the two I looked at defined process in ways that allowed processes either to be teleological or not.

    So let’s call processes that must satisfy Mung’s definition “Mung-processes”.

    Ordinary natural processes can then still be called “processes”.

    So the question I asked remains: what use is it to call ordinary evolutionary processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, migration, and mutation “teleological”? Calling them that might make sense if one could show that they achieve some end that is not obvious.

    Note that the discussion is not about the adequacy of those ordinary processes to model biological evolution. The description “teleological” has been proposed for the outcome of natural evolutionary [non-Mung-]processes. Does that make sense? I don’t see that it does.

  28. By the way, just after submitting the preceding comment, I tried to edit it to add a “?” to a sentence which was a question. WordPress is not allowing me to do this, in spite of being logged in, and being the author of the comment. Sort of a case of Being As Non-communion.

  29. I think Monod got it right in this respect:

    …since a structure’s degree of order can be defined in units of information, we shall say that the “invariance content” of a given species is equal to the amount of information which, transmitted from one generation to the next, assures the preservation of the specific structural standard. As we shall see later on, with the help of a few assumptions it will be possible to arrive at an estimate of this amount.

    That in turn will enable us to bring into better focus the notion most immediately and plainly inspired by the examination of the structures and performances of living beings, that of teleonomy. Analysis nevertheless reveals it to be a profoundly ambiguous concept, since it implies the subjective idea of “project.” [Consider] the example of the camera: if we agree that this object’s existence and structure realize the “project” of capturing images, we must also agree, obviously enough, that a similar project is accomplished with the emergence of the eye of a vertebrate.

    But it is only as a part of a more comprehensive project that each individual project, whatever it may be, has any meaning. All the functional adaptations in living beings, like all the artifacts they produce, fulfill particular projects which may be seen as so many aspects or fragments of a unique primary project, which is the preservation and multiplication of the species.

    To be more precise, we shall arbitrarily choose to define the essential teleonomic project as consisting in the transmission from generation to generation of the invariance content characteristic of the species. All the structures, all the performances, all the activities contributing to the success of the essential project will hence be called “teleonomic.”

    This allows us to put forward at least the principle of a definition of a species’ “teleonomic level.’ All teleonomic structures and performances can be regarded as corresponding to a certain quantity of information which must be transmitted for these structures to be realized and -these performances accomplished. Let us call this quantity “teleonomic information.” A given species’ “teleonomic level” may then be said to correspond to the quantity of information which, on the average and per individual, must be transferred to assure the generation-to-generation transmission of the specific content of reproductive invariance.
    (Monod, Chance and Necessity)

    Essentially, he’s saying that functions that serve to bring about a project can be said to have a purpose – but for living things, the “primary project” is simply to replicate itself – and its functions solely serve this internal end, unlike, say, a camera, which might serve the ends of an entity that is external to the camera.

    The second is what he calls “teleological” – and requires an external agent with purposes of her own for the object. The first, he calls “teleonomic” as the “primary project” is simply the replication of the object – there is no external agent with an external project.

  30. Elizabeth: but for living things, the “primary project” is simply to replicate itself – and its functions solely serve this internal end

    There’s a pretty good argument that bacteria maxed out this primary project a long time ago, and that every other kind of living thing is just noise riding on the main signal of life.

  31. Joe Felsenstein: Yes, I have not read BAC. I assumed that it would add little or nothing in the way of technical arguments about evolution, but that the technical arguments would be found in Dembski. Ewert, and Marks’s freely-available papers.

    And you’re absolutely right about that. As you know, but others do not, we have bent over backwards, trying to figure out, “What the heck could he have meant by that?” We shouldn’t need to turn to Dembski’s latest religiophilosophical work to disambiguate his technical talk. Everything should be in the three technical references he gave. I have gone above and beyond the call of duty, attempting to determine what Dembski really meant to say.

  32. P.S.–It was shabby of Ewert to respond to us with revisions of Being as Communion, and to make no mention that he had introduced a new source.

  33. I believe what Tom, Joe and Liz mis is that excess reproduction drives variation and natural selection yet is not defined by evolution. It in fact precededs it.

    IMO, the active information in embedded in the quantity and frequency of reproduction which appears tailor-made to each organism: insects reproduce in high frequency and in large numbers to keep hundreds. Repiles reproduce frequently (but less than insects) and produce hundreds to keep several. Mammal produce even less frequently and produce several to keep one, a couple or a few.

    It it the syncronization of excess reproduction at each level of life that 1) ensures the survival of each type of organism and more so 2) contributes to the stability of the food chain by not only ensuring its own survival but that of others as well.

    For Tom English and Joe Felsenstein to be right, they would need to show how excess reproduction is explained by evolution.

    Remember folks, evolutionists say evolution starts after reproduction is in place since reproduction is part of abiogenesis. Then evolution takes in from there. But like I said, it is not mere reproduction that is required but differential excess reproduction that is required to maintain the biosphere.

    So it is quite clear that the correct (designed) model of evolution is one that incorporates differential excess reproduction, which drives the required variation ( to meet the challenge of the randomly varying environment), and then filtered by natural selection.

    Evolutionists unwittingly box themselves in to only be able to talk about the two passive components of evolution and are mute on the single active component (IMO, the only component that counts) so theirs is an incomplete model which does not reflect what is actually happening.

    So yeah, design is a no-brainer. I am at a loss to understand why so many academics are hell-bent on arguing around the obvious.

    Note: what I mean by differential excess reproduction is the fact that different organisms have different rates and quantities of reproduction. I mention this so that it would not be confused with differential reproduction which refers to variation in offspring.

  34. Steve: Active information is not “embedded in the quantity and frequency of reproduction which appears tailor-made to each organism”, at least not the kind of “active information” that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks define. Their quantity can be calculated from the pattern of fitnesses of genotypes. Just knowing the amount of excess reproduction does not allow us to compute their quantity at all.

    In addition, excess reproduction does not need some unusual explanation. Without any of it, species will go extinct (ask any well-trained ecologist). If species produced only enough offspring to replace themselves, they would not be able to have their populations grow after an environmental disaster. Nor is some puzzling explanation needed for why mosquitoes produce a lot more offspring than elephants!

    Whatever you are discussing, it is not DEM’s arguments.

  35. Steve: Remember folks, evolutionists say evolution starts after reproduction is in place since reproduction is part of abiogenesis. Then evolution takes in from there. But like I said, it is not mere reproduction that is required but differential excess reproduction that is required to maintain the biosphere.

    This doesn’t really make sense. For a lineage to survive, death rate has be no greater than birth rate. But death rate depends on the environment – whether it is benign and full of resources, or harsh and full of hazards.

    So lineages that survive will be those who produce enough offspring to maintain a stable population. If they are good at surviving the hazards and exploiting the resources (top predators for instance) they don’t need to have many young. If they aren’t (turtles for instance) then they need to have a lot.

    You don’t need differential reproduction rate to get evolution. Reproduction rates will evolve like everything else.

    At least that’s the argument. What is your rebuttal?

  36. Elizabeth,

    This doesn’t really make sense. For a lineage to survive, death rate has be no greater than birth rate. But death rate depends on the environment – whether it is benign and full of resources, or harsh and full of hazards.

    Actually, it makes perfect sense. Excess reproduction is the design element that does not require organisms to have foresight. The foresight is in the design. It doesn’t matter what the environment conditions are at any given moment. Excess reproduction ensures that enough variation is enabled to meet any contingency. So the random environmental change challenge is answered with constant organismal variation. There will always be a variation that will work for any given environmental condition. This is why life has persisted for so long.

    So lineages that survive will be those who produce enough offspring to maintain a stable population. If they are good at surviving the hazards and exploiting the resources (top predators for instance) they don’t need to have many young. If they aren’t (turtles for instance) then they need to have a lot.

    This seems muddled thinking. All life is good at surviving and exploiting (by the way, evolution is non-teleological remember so evolution does not exploit, design does). The genotype persists regardless of the phenotype. Birds persist regardess if the cardinal persists or not.

    So this struggle for existence meme is wrong-headed. That is what Darwin got wrong. Life is cooperative, not competitive.

    You don’t need differential reproduction rate to get evolution. Reproduction rates will evolve like everything else.

    Actually you do, as I mentioned above.

    Thats why I found Joe’s remark above astounding. He said no unusual explanation is required for excess reproduction and it the same breath declares that species would go extinct without it.

    The reason organisms would go extinct without having excess reproduction is because variation and selection don’t work without it. Rabbits couldn’t survive without producing lots of bunnies. Produce too little and they would all be picked off by snakes, disease, drought. Produce enough and at least one makes it to the next round. As I like to say, insects produce thousands to keep hundreds, rabbits produce several to keep a few.

    And so it is for all life. And because the design is so robust, it has not failed in billions of years.

    Non-teleological step-wise incremental change over time will not get you that robustness. It never gets out of the starting gate. How can it when it has to evolve the excess reproduction that it needs to evolve?

  37. Steve,

    Thats why I found Joe’s remark above astounding. He said no unusual explanation is required for excess reproduction and it the same breath declares that species would go extinct without it.

    It’s true. If net replacement in a sexual species is < 2, the species is headed for extinction. Therefore higher fecundity is favoured in organisms with higher mortality. The species left are those that were able to adapt to this selective pressure, which has the same effect as any other. Fecundity can be selected for, and optimised by selection alone.

    It’s really no different in overall effect from (say) predator defences, and needs no special separate Design Factor. Of course, you think predator defences were designed as well. Regardless, there is no separate requirement for fecundity on either paradigm.

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