Sandbox (4)

Sometimes very active discussions about peripheral issues overwhelm a thread, so this is a permanent home for those conversations.

I’ve opened a new “Sandbox” thread as a post as the new “ignore commenter” plug-in only works on threads started as posts.

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3,430 thoughts on “Sandbox (4)

  1. phoodoo:
    Kantian Naturalist,

    There is also the possibility that some of those evangelicals who say they don’t want abortion, don’t really mean it, because they know it could be one of their girlfriends or daughters who might end up needing one.

    If they think it is a real possibility that they could actually be banned, they just might start to be careful what they are wishing for.

    This is wishful thinking on steroids. Yes, someone close to them may well need an abortion. But even when it was not legal, safe abortion was quite easy to obtain if you had any money. Kind of like finding a drink during prohibition. Oh, and you also had to be white. But I can recall those days, and there was a regular underground railroad getting pregnant girls and women to Mexico, to Canada, to Europe. And it was also known that even the most fanatical anti-abortion Republicans regularly arranged for their daughters and mistresses to get abortions. What they sincerely opposed was abortion for minority women and poor women.

    You think people didn’t know what they were voting for? They didn’t realize he was this thin skinned, vindictive, unimaginative, uneducated, self serving, lying bigot? You think that only came to light AFTER he was elected??

    Sigh. I doubt most voters knew anything about him, except the character he played on his TV series.

    Please understand how polarized the US has become. Those who watch Fox News watch nothing else, and those who watch anything else never watch Fox news. Remember the little old lady who listened to Justin Amash explaining why he opposed Trump, and said (on non-Fox TV) “I watch the news every day, and I had no idea there was anything negative about Trump in the Mueller Report!”

    Fox is the most watched “news” network in the country, accounting for nearly as many watchers as everything else combined. You could have watched Fox every day for a decade (many have) and NEVER learned that Trump was anything but honest, patriotic, and wonderful.

    More importantly, Fox news watchers STILL don’t know anything else about him. Hell, I myself would gladly vote for the man Fox presents to me, a dedicated public servant with my interests at heart! These people sincerely believe that covid-19 is a hoax, that global warming is a hoax, that cops are flawless and selflessly fighting the evil antifa, that democrats are rioters, thugs, looters and (of course) baby killers. If you want to question them about their fantasy world, you should first make sure they’re not armed. These beliefs are not to be questioned, and just questioning them is proof you’re a dangerous idiot.

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  2. Alan Fox:
    Flint,

    Please tell me this is hyperbole.

    I wish I could. I’m now related to a few of these folks. How many times do you have to be told that covid-19 is a fake pandemic funded by Bill Gates and you’re a fool and a sucker if you think otherwise? How many times do you have to listen to how Trump is saving our country from the moron negroes (there’s no OTHER kind of negro), the job-stealing Mexicans, and the Chinese who created the fake virus in their labs?

    Look, Trump himself assures us how he’s done a fabulous job of handling the pandemic, the best job anyone has ever done. And he’s the President, he should know. What, aren’t you a patriot? Haven’t you watched the news for the last year? What’s wrong with you?

    You probably think that high school dropout kid who started killing people committed murder! Don’t you realize that he was defending small businesses, helping the police, controlling the rioters and (most important) WHITE? He is hailed as a national hero on Fox News. Do you ever watch Fox?

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  3. Flint: And it was also known that even the most fanatical anti-abortion Republicans regularly arranged for their daughters and mistresses to get abortions.

    One correction. Before 1975 or so it was not simply a matter of Democrats versus Republicans. The Democratic Party was also the party of southern conservatism. There were even many liberal Republicans, especially in the Northeast. After 1975 or so, there was a reshuffling, and party became allied with the liberal-conservative axis. Before that, the fanatical anti-abortionists included a lot of conservative southern Democrats, and there were even pro-choice liberal-to-moderate Republicans.

    I’m old enough to remember the reshuffling.

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  4. Kantian Naturalist:

    Count on it.

    Guess not ready to go completely nihilistic yet.

    That’s an awful lot of faith to have in a broken system.

    Despair favors Trump. Faith in the system is the only reasonable course.

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  5. newton: The nice part is likewise one can choose not to be disgusting as many people are by the eviction of Trump.

    In the no choice scenario, you got no say about disgusting or anything else.

    I have no idea what you are even trying to say.

    You have a chosen leader and his policies are abhorrent.

    You have other countries whose leaders are chosen by a smaller group of people, and yet their policies are more humane than that of the bumbling psychopath.

    So bragging about democracy, when the end result is an evil, thoughtless, race- baiting, conman, whose entire philosophy is to tear the country apart anyway he can for his own good, is a pretty silly thing to brag about.

    “Its about the genes you know…like race horses. Some people have good genes…”

    Fucking hell.

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  6. phoodoo: You have other countries whose leaders are chosen by a smaller group of people, and yet their policies are more humane than that of the bumbling psychopath.

    Unless, of course, you are having your organs stolen in a camp or being run over by tanks.

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  7. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-population-forced-sterilisation-xinjiang-genocide-women-b512409.html

    Chinese officials have confirmed a huge drop in birth rates in Xinjiang, following accusations that authorities in the remote western province are subjecting Muslim Uighur women to forced sterilisations.

    In a six-page letter to CNN, the Xinjiang government denied such procedures were forced and instead claimed all measures were voluntary, but confirmed the number of births in the region plummeted by a third between 2017 and 2018.

    Not sure why you have a problem with:
    “Its about the genes you know…like race horses. Some people have good genes…”

    When it’s clear what genes are desired and what are not and your government is taking steps to achieve that goal.

    Trump mutters about things he does not understand whereas you are fully aware and yet support eugenics regardless.

    Odd how the anti-darwinist ends up supporting eugenics! Phoodoo, for shame!

    The irony is strong.

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  8. phoodoo: So bragging about democracy, when the end result is an evil, thoughtless, race- baiting, conman, whose entire philosophy is to tear the country apart anyway he can for his own good, is a pretty silly thing to brag about.

    I am afraid I have to side with OMagain on this one, phoodoo. Donald Trump may be an appalling oaf, but I still prefer him to ehm … *Winnie the Pooh*. That guy just gives me the heebie-jeebies. Also, I genuinely fear that you blink out of internet existence at some point.

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  9. Corneel: Donald Trump may be an appalling oaf, but I still prefer him to ehm … *Winnie the Pooh*.

    If Trump loses the election he will probably leave office.

    When will Winnie be leaving his office phoodoo?

    For all Trump’s awfulness there is a time limit. It’ll eventually end. Whereas……

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  10. phoodoo: So bragging about democracy, when the end result is an evil, thoughtless, race- baiting, conman, whose entire philosophy is to tear the country apart anyway he can for his own good, is a pretty silly thing to brag about.

    The United States is not a democracy — not even a representative democracy. So it is not a failure of democracy that Trump became president, nor a failure of democracy that his impeachment failed. It would not be a failure of democracy if he were re-elected.

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  11. newton: Despair favors Trump. Faith in the system is the only reasonable course.

    I completely disagree. The only reasonable course is revolution. But Americans are far too selfish, ignorant, and cowardly for that.

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  12. phoodoo: I have no idea what you are even trying to say.

    Freedom of choice allows the possibility of bad outcomes to occur. It also allows a mechanism to correct the outcome. No choice ,bad outcomes are possible , no overriding mechanism.

    You have a chosen leader and his policies are abhorrent.

    Trump was legally elected by a minority of voters, his policies are abhorrent.

    You have other countries whose leaders are chosen by a smaller group of people,

    Of course, dictatorships for instance.

    and yet their policies are more humane than that of the bumbling psychopath.

    When it comes to psychopathic leaders, prefer the bumblers to the efficient.

    So bragging about democracy, when the end result is an evil, thoughtless, race- baiting, conman, whose entire philosophy is to tear the country apart anyway he can for his own good, is a pretty silly thing to brag about.

    Still preferable to a dictatorship which has no way change the regime.

    ”Its about the genes you know…like race horses.Some people have good genes…”

    Fucking hell.

    I have made my position clear, Trump is awful. But it is not as awful as having Trump with no way to replace him. Now if Trump loses clearly but manages to stay in power, we would be in agreement. Of course, that would be your small group of people making the choice.

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  13. Kantian Naturalist: I completely disagree. The only reasonable course is revolution. But Americans are far too selfish, ignorant, and cowardly for that.

    We know what voting entails, what does a revolution look like if the citizens are selfless, smart and brave?

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  14. Kantian Naturalist,

    Steady on. The hoi poloi will put up with almost anything rather than chaos. I recall Nicolae Ceaușescu holding the line in Roumania by deft use of the ploy.

    *Checks notes*

    Oh wait…

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  15. While popular elections are great, and effective feedback works fine so long as it is protected and respected, we know from watching global experience that a nation only has to popularly elect one dictator, and there will never be an opportunity to correct that mistake. Revolutions often fail, in one of two ways. Either the autocrat running the country survives (and represses viciously in retaliation), or someone on a white horse achieves the coup, becomes dictator, and purges his political opponents. As far as governing goes, nothing much changes either way.

    (Just as an aside, I recently mailed in my ballot. I noticed that only two Democrats were on the entire ballot, for President and for Senator. A couple dozen Republicans ran unopposed for everything else. Both those Democrats are expected to lose by wide margins here in Alabama. Democracy in action.)

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  16. Joe Felsenstein: One correction.Before 1975 or so it was not simply a matter of Democrats versus Republicans.The Democratic Party was also the party of southern conservatism.

    Yeah, I lived through that as well. And it wasn’t a party thing, it was a racial thing. Here in the Deep South, the blacks mostly voted Republican in honor of Lincoln. Whites couldn’t ALSO vote republican, because that would (ghasp!) cause some blacks to be elected to state offices. So to ensure an all-white government, they had to become Dixiecrats. Once blacks realized modern Republicans are no longer the party of Lincoln, everyone could switch labels. As for the all-white legislature, state executive, judiciary, all the way to dogcatcher, nothing functional changed at all. But I will say that access to abortion correlates much more with money than with race.

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  17. Flint,

    Yes, the southern Democrats who switched to being Republicans were mostly reacting to being upset at the Democratic Party for backing civil rights legislation in the 1960s. Richard Nixon had his “southern strategy” in the 1972 election of appealing to them. During the 1970s there were constant announcements by southern Democratic politicians than they had now switched parties. When he signed the voting rights act, Lyndon Johnson said “I think we just lost the South for the next generation”. He was wrong — it was for two generations.

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  18. Armed insurrection, huh? That could be fun. A nice twist on the ability of the Second to oppose oppression. Especially when the defenders of democracy (sic) have all the kit.

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  19. So Donald Trump the billionaire paid almost no tax in the last 15 years or so. Does that not just show what a brilliant businessman he is?

    He’s going to get in again, isn’t he?

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  20. Alan Fox,

    I think it about fifty fifty chance. I think he will probably still lose, but it’s close.

    If Corey Booker were the nomination I would say he would only have about a two percent chance of staying as the idiot in chief. Democrats are the more moral party, but not necessarily the better strategists.

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  21. Alan Fox:
    So Donald Trump the billionaire paid almost no tax in the last 15 years or so. Does that not just show what a brilliant businessman he is?

    If one is prepared to overlook the fact that, to do so, his businesses made massive losses. There is, of course, little that the confirmed Trump sycophant cannot overlook.

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  22. Allan Miller: If one is prepared to overlook the fact that, to do so, his businesses made massive losses.

    He loses in each individual business, but he makes it up in volume. Just as he may in the Electoral College system.

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  23. Joe Felsenstein: He loses in each individual business, but he makes it up in volume. Just as he may in the Electoral College system.

    A Republican candidate has won the popular vote only once since Reagan (Bush 2004). This year, not even the Trumpies think he has any chance of winning the popular vote. And gaming the system is his specialty. Unfortunately, the votes needed to eliminate this relic must come from the very states who benefit from it, as well as from their House and Senate beneficiaries. Not gonna happen.

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  24. :
    Phoodoo,

    I think it about fifty fifty chance.I think he will probably still lose,but it’s close.

    If Corey Booker were the nomination I would say he would only have abouta two percent chance of staying as the idiot in chief. Democrats are the more moral party,but not necessarily the better strategists.

    The Democratic strategy of taking some precautions to avoid being infected by Covid seems to be paying some dividends.Hope Hicks may turn out to be the most inFLUencial unknown unknown.

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  25. newton: Hope Hicks may turn out to be the most inFLUencial unknown unknown.

    That is a keeper. The strange connection to Donald Rumsfeld only makes it better.

    BTW, I’ve been checking this thread for months. I’d have liked to join in the fun, but I was (and continue to be) busy with a project.

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  26. phoodoo: Democrats are the more moral party…

    In spite of their incessant lies. And their hypocrisy. And the graft. Etc.

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  27. Tom English: That is a keeper. The strange connection to Donald Rumsfeld only makes it better.

    BTW, I’ve been checking this thread for months. I’d have liked to join in the fun, but I was (and continue to be) busy with a project.

    Still time, Phoodoo is still trying to get Corey Booker the nomination.

    Trump gave Biden a gift, the chance to act Presidential. In his speech ,Biden said now is the time fo everyone to stand behind the President, implying the office not Trump. Biden pulling all his attack his ads, while Trump campaign ran doctored videos against Biden. The thing is ,the Lincoln Project and other anti-Trump groups made no such promise to cease attacking Trump.

    Right now, Trump’s fight is with a virus ,which like him, has no human compassion.

    Far out prediction, Trump resigns for health reasons, the good of the country , not for being a loser and Pence pardons him and his entire administration and children. That would be a true reality TV twist. He can then start his own media outlet.

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  28. Mung: In spite of their incessant lies. And their hypocrisy. And the graft. Etc.

    “More” is a comparative term. When it comes to the big three, grifting and lying and hypocrisy, Republicans have gone all in, in fact, it is a badge of honor. Then add 200,000 dead Americans, so far , few misplaced separated children. the President’s personal lawyers, a porn star or two, a pipeline of Federal money to the Presidential properties to the pile. Yadda,yadda,yadda. Putin.

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  29. Mung: In spite of their incessant lies. And their hypocrisy. And the graft. Etc.

    Speaking as an outsider, this looks like glass-house stone-chucking to me.

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  30. Mung: In spite of their incessant lies. And their hypocrisy. And the graft. Etc.

    What do you think about the great example him and his family made for the country? In a debate, where the host venue INSISTED that all attendees wear masks, the orange idiot’s moron brats all decided that you know what, we are going to ignore these rules-because we don’t care. WE don’t care if it makes a bad example for the country and incites more chaos. We don’t care if it endangers not just anyone they later come into contact with, but also makes it even harder for others to enforce rules to keep other families safe, thus endangering all kinds of peoples lives. In fact, doctors from the venue even went up to them to ask them to please wear masks after they weren’t wearing any, and they had him turned away. Who gives a dam, we are the idiot’s brats. Where are some rare rhinos we can kill?

    Gee, I wonder why the country is so fucked up? Hard one to figure, huh mung?

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  31. I’m not sure what your point is. Are those protesters then being taken away and put into camps and sterilized? If not, what is the relevance?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49317695

    Chinese president Xi Jinping has warned against separatism, saying any attempt to divide China would end in “bodies smashed and bones ground to powder”.

    I notice you don’t deny the existence of such reeducation camps as detailed in that previous article. And rather then acknowledge their existence you attempt more whataboutism.

    And it’s patently absurd to equate a video of a single person being wrestled to the ground and arrested with the wholesale “reeducation” of an ethic group. But that’s what you are doing. Anything to defend the indefensible.

    Because American police wrested a protester to the ground they are as bad as China?

    You probably think that everything is going great in Tibet as well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China

    The thing you don’t seem to understand is that America is at a crossroads where they can vote to change. And you seem to hate that. But I guess people like you who think they know better then everybody else are right at home in the sort of regime you call home. Where no such vote is possible.

    Do pass on information on dissenters to the security services?

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  32. phoodoo: Yea, all that freedom looks wonderful!

    Just another typical day right?

    And yes, all that freedom to get out and protest and make change is something you are happy to deny people, it seems. Better to protest and get arrested and released and have to answer for your crime in front of your peers (however bad that actual system is, it exists) then protest and be taken to a camp and “re-educated” and potentially never seen again.

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  33. OMagain,

    China, with over 1 Billion MORE people than the US still has half a million LESS people in prison than in the good ol USA.

    Do you have any idea (of course not) how much safer and stable China is compared to the United States of Crime and death? Please save your uneducated ignorance for someone who is more easily fooled. I know how happy you are living in a country with the worst gun violence, the most violent police, the worst drug addictions, homeless problems, mental issues, schooling issues, medical problems, debt courts, and the dumbest leader of a developed nation that has ever existed.

    But hey, great virus response. Glad you are thrilled. Turns out unfettered capitalism run by greedy bastards with guns doesn’t make populations nearly as happy as you might think. Hmmm, who knew?

    Imagine if the US had to deal with a billion more people? Can you imagine the crime filled, hate filled, ignorance filled sesspool? Wake up idiot, you are not winning. The world used to revere and respect America. What happened?

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  34. phoodoo: But hey, great virus response. Glad you are thrilled. Turns out unfettered capitalism run by greedy bastards with guns doesn’t make populations nearly as happy as you might think. Hmmm, who knew?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

    Turns out objective reality disagrees with you. Compare China’s position on that list to the USA.

    phoodoo: Imagine if the US had to deal with a billion more people? Can you imagine the crime filled, hate filled, ignorance filled sesspool? Wake up idiot, you are not winning. The world used to revere and respect America.

    Yes you are right. That billion more people justifies re-education camps and sterilizations.

    It’s funny to hear you advocate social Darwinism. You’ve no problem with some people being put in camps it seems, as long as they are the right people.

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  35. “I am putting a stop to all stimulus package talks until after the election!”

    “I recommend we begin sending stimulus checks immediately, because I was told my last idea one was of the stupidest ever!”

    The Dumbest infant that ever lived (mung’s hero). Oct 07, 2020

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  36. The infant will be voted out or his term will expire. It’s designed into the system.

    What happens with terrible leaders where you live? Oh, that’s right, you suck it up.

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  37. OMagain: The infant will be voted out or his term will expire. It’s designed into the system.

    Before or after they appoint supreme court justices for life?

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  38. phoodoo: Before or after they appoint supreme court justices for life?

    After ,if a opening occurs.What is the Chinese court’s position on same sex marriage?

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  39. phoodoo:
    “I am putting a stop to all stimulus package talks until after the election!”

    The market predictably crashes.

    “I recommend we begin sending stimulus checks immediately, because I was told my last idea one was of the stupidest ever!”

    The market goes up ,predictably.

    Sure would be nice to know what Trump was going to tweet ahead of time. Money could be made.

    The Dumbest infant that ever lived (mung’s hero).Oct 07, 2020

    The steroid version is even dumber.

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  40. newton,

    You have at least 3 US supreme court justices currently serving who have doubts that same sex marriage should be legal (two who recently said it could be overturned), and they are not elected and they serve for life, so what’s your point?

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