As the replacement Moderation page has developed the old bug so that permalinks no longer navigate to the appropriate comment, so here is yet another page for continuing discussion on moderating issues. The Rules can be found there so anyone with an issue should check that they are familiar with them.
The Skeptical Zone
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
Yet another thread for you to move posts to? Good grief, Alan.
I’m tired of seeing the pair of you snipe at each other. If anyone other than you or walto want to object, they can do it
herein the moderation issues thread. If you or walto want to object, you’ll have to take it up with Lizzie. And the work is what you and walto create, Keith. I’d ask you to think about that but I don’t suppose there’s any point.Alan,
This is Lizzie’s site. As moderator, you are constrained by Lizzie’s rules.
Stop inventing your own.
I am also tired of flame wars.
If you disagree with a post, disagree with it.
Do not refer to other people’s character or to past sins. Just don’t do it.
At least not on topic discussion threads.
I moderated on a forum that had a back room for flame wars. If that’s what this is, then good.
keiths,
It’s a temporary measure. It is indeed Lizzie’s site and, like you, I believe I try to act in her best interests. She will, no doubt, tell me in no uncertain terms if I have over-stepped the mark. I’ll take that on the chin. Until then this is how it is.
Bugger. I thought I had an original idea! 🙁
Alan,
Comments regarding moderation issues belong in the Moderation Issues thread. You are abusing your moderator privileges by moving them.
Knock it off.
keiths,
I stand by my actions and I’m prepared for the appropriate level of flak from Lizzie and any other commenter apart from you and walto.
Alan,
This thread — the Moderation Issues thread — was created for the discussion of moderation issues.
Your abuse of moderator privileges is a moderation issue, and discussion of it belongs here. Stop moving these comments to the other thread.
keiths,
You have Lizzie’s email address.
Alan,
You have Lizzie’s rules. Don’t invent your own.
One thing I do thank you for is that you have illustrated, through your behavior, the abuses to which moderator powers can be put.
It fits in nicely with the theme of my upcoming OP on Guano and teh rools.
Keith, it’s temporary. Lizzie will be back soon enough. Your views are important and your contribution is valuable. On this matter of constant bickering with walto you have a blind spot. It is embarrassing to watch. All that has happened is you now have your own thread to play with walto. All other commenters are free to join in if they wish and all can be reversed if Lizzie prefers when she has time to deal with it. I’m happy to listen to any suggestions or criticisms from anyone else who wants to say something here.
That’s fine. The only thing that has changed is that comments from you or walto that continue the bickering will, for the moment, end up here.
As to OPs and comments that don’t bicker with walto and don’t take issue with me for this particular action, your rights and privileges remain unaffected. I’m happy to discuss your thoughts on my abuse of moderation here.
I fully support this solution. I’ve seen it work.
Alan,
You are using your moderator privileges to prevent a discussion of moderation issues from taking place in the Moderation Issues thread.
Abuses don’t get much more blatant than that.
Alan, I can understand a separate thread, but it seems to make an awful big deal of this particular kerfluffle to put it up here next to Rules, Guano, etc. I mean, I like the idea of a wine cellar–an insult area like petrushka had on his site, but why restrict it to one particular fight? What about the Murray/OMagain feud which has been going on much longer and contains many more jibes/posts in it than my own little festival? And I’m sure there are tons of other pointless, endless feuds that could find a nice home somewhere on this tool bar but maybe don’t fall to the level of guano.
I’m picturing someone who just found this site and is blundering around the uppermost links. He or she might get get the point of Guano, Rules, etc., but wonder why in the world there is a special place for a bickerfest between some guy named keiths and another guy named walto. Seems like undeserved high price real estate to me.
Also, I’m not planning to contribute on this thread (or whatever it is), because, as you will no doubt remember, I promised to try not to bicker here, so it seems you’ve given an awfully big, important placeholder for what will likely become dead letter fairly soon.
Just my two cents. I don’t like the spotlight, and think a regular thread for the walto/keith bullshit or a general wine center for ALL the nonsensical hostilities here makes more sense, but, of course, you and/or Lizzie can do what you like.
But the issue as I see it is how to end the unseemly flame-war between you and walto. This is my temporary solution. You may not be in the best position to see this from the general point of view. Such comment that I have seen is not in favour of you and walto continuing this bickering across threads. I tried to negotiate with you both and this was not successful. Lizzie will rule on the matter when she has time but until then, unless the other admins disagree, I’m afraid this is how things will be.
And I emphasize once again, you and walto are completely free (within Lizzie’s rules) to comment or post OPs as the mood takes you, so long as you manage to resist the urge to bicker with each other.
Well, I was rather hoping that it would discourage infighting.
Can you explain that?–I don’t understand.
I hope there is no need for a permanent flame pit. I’m sorry that Keith is so affronted by my action but I just thought the whole blog atmosphere was being rendered unsociable by this continuing spat.
I also hope Lizzie will accept that I was trying for a least worst solution and nothing I have done is irrevocable, pending her return.
OK, thanks.
walto,
I mean it might discourage other flame wars from developing as the possibility of the mild censure of a comment being moved out of the mainstream would be disincentive enough. And remember we move comments only here, not commenters, and comments are always visible. If guano gets red-carded comments, then the wine cellar is for the yellow card or time-out.
Actually Alan I think this is an awesome idea. A thread just for keiths posts. Just move all his posts here. I think I’ll suggest this to Barry over at UD in case keiths should ever show back up over there.
Guess there’s no doubt about how keiths manages to get himself banned over at UD every chance he gets.
WHERE’S THE CHEESE LOCKER? I CAN’T HAVE WINE WITHOUT CHEESE!
Oh look, a SJW uses a gendered slur, as if women can’t stand up for their positions too. Why do you hide behind foreign words? Just come right out with it and command him to grow a pair.
Lenny Flank has pointed out that it is dangerous for science defenders to attempt maintaining discussions that don’t impinge directly on the scientific subjects because we are a far too varied lot to continue to get along when the subject turns. He’s probably right.
Nope. One of my other haunts. http://www.battleforces.com/forum/5
According to wikipedia, “mensch” is not gendered.
Do you have reason to think “mensch” automatically means “male”? And do you have any reason to suggest that walto is using it as a slur? In fact, do you have any reason to call walto “SJW”?
Even if SJW were something walto identifies as, why do you throw it around as an insult to him? Why are you attempting to slam him while simultaneously complaining that he has used a “slur” in his rude response to keiths?
Maybe you really don’t know what “slur” means, or maybe you were just reaching for the nearest slam you could think of to throw against walto and hoped no one would notice your mistakes.
Try harder next time. Or not, as you prefer.
Oh, here’s the wine.
Excellent.
*breathes sigh of relief*
ETA delete whine
But unlike what happens in football, it’s only the comment that gets the “card” not the commenter.
So probably not a great metaphor.
But I do think a space where people can actually address the poster may be important, given the rules for our main threads. Again, nothing (necessarily) wrong with a good fistfight, but good to have it outside on the pavement, as it were.
Thanks, hotshoe. BTW I left out an ‘a’ in that post. I meant to write ‘a mensch’ as in a grown-up. I don’t know what an SJW is (single Jewish woman?) So I don’t know if I identify as an SJW, but I can look it up and report back if anybody cares.
I do have one additional complaint/concern about this forum, in addition to what I expressed above about its weirdly being restricted to one particular spat. I don’t think Alan moved nearly enough posts here from Moderation. Just started in a random place. I come out bad here with the lack of context supplied, I think, since this thread basically opens up with me apparently refusing a ‘peace offering.’ I believe that’s highly misleading for reasons I won’t bother to repeat here.
If this forum is really only for walto/keiths and not for, e.g., mung/keiths or OMagain/Murray, for whatever reason, think Alan should have at least looked for all the keiths/walto bickers over the last week or so on the Moderation thread and moved them here so all the context would be available. It seems to me like he simply picked a (rather late) date, and then just moved a random sample from that point on.
Or “Social Justice Warrior”, a term sometimes used with a strong tone of derision.
Oh yeah, that makes sense, since I think aardvark said he is a libertarian. Thanks.
FWIW, I don’t self-identify as a social justice warrior. I think of myself as a democratic consequentialist who is opposed to natural rights theories. I recently wrote a lengthy paper on this subject to which I’ll supply the link, if it is accepted somewhere. If it’s not, maybe I’ll shove it on the internet somewhere myself.
Incidentally, I agree with aardvark’s remark about the general pointlessness of political pontification–especially when the sermons include hi-falutin’ remarks about the tyrannical government kidnappings of tax scofflaws.
ETA: I can’t edit my previous post for some reason–the edit I made on my phone didn’t take and I don’t have the edit link on my computer. So I’ll add here what I tried to add there.
The selective moving of posts from Moderation has not only made this forum strange (and, I think, unfair), but Moderation nearly incomprehensible. That place was a big fat mess before: because the posts originating there weren’t copied and moved but cut and moved, now Moderation is a big fat incoherent mess.
As I’ve said, I think the solution is to just go back a few days and move ALL the walto/keiths crapola here.
Since I don’t speak Yiddish I have to rely on the most common example I’m aware of that has propagated into English and that would be ubermensch; and the most commonly understood translation-‘superman’. I’ve never seen mensch used in isolation. I had no reason to expect that the word couldn’t be truncated from the prefix as simply as superman is. Gendered?, that’s fine, “human being” isn’t gendered.
Slur? A phatic, content-free, snarl word intended to demonize, other, and denigrate the dignity of the person being addressed? Damn skippy he used mensch as slur.
Anyone who agitates for free water or broadband as if there aren’t blue collar workers in the world who have to exert effort to provide those things and hope to hell they are given a decent standard of living in return for those efforts? Yep, sounds like social justice to me. Anyone who holds the sick desire to control the free exchange of ideas between adults? Yep, sounds like social justice to me.
I’m not allergic to slurs the way social justice jerks claim they are. Are you feeling a little stung? Allergic much? Guilty dog much? Your comments are frequently full of phatic, content-free snarling; or as Patrick would put it, “your bias is showing”. But they are also frequently brilliant; particularly the ones I remember from some years back that were directed at Murray. Maybe I’m just crotchety because, after over a year, walto and (especially) keiths are still stuck in the same scratch on the vinyl. I’m not happy with Patrick’s standard libertarian tropes and metaphors and I’m putting a comment together for it. I’m not happy with your invidious comparisons either, though I couldn’t improve on what other people have replied to you with. At least you recognize walto was rude in his response to keiths.[/rant]
Alan Fox, Lizzie,
I think the Wine Cellar is a grand idea. The biggest flaw with Guano was the inability to reply to people whose comments were sent there. Three cheers from me.
I haven’t done that. I’ve said I’m opposed to their monopolization. That’s not the same thing.
ETA: And, if it’s not clear, I mean monopolization by private interests.
Anyhow, whether or not aardvark identifies me as a social justice warrior, justice isn’t one of my big issues. Equality and democracy are.
So maybe I’m a E&DW.
Three cheers for Liars for Hitler!
Oookaaayyy …
Nope.
Nope.
Still nope. Good thing you put a question mark with all those implied slurs against me, though — definitely puts you on the side of the angels to “question” rather than flat-out accuse me of acting like a guilty dog.
Whatever lets you sleep at night, dude. Or dudette as the case may be.
Aardvark,
I suggest that a better solution would be to allow comments to be made in Guano, rather than creating another thread.
I’m curious to see what rules Lizzie has for moving comments to the Wine Cellar. My concern is that it will distract more from existing threads than the occasional bickering does.
Patrick:
That’s a concern of mine, also. From the Moderation Issues thread:
In the Moderation Issues thread, more on why I think the Wine Cellar is a bad idea.
I don’t think it is a big issue but I think the status quo is best with guano, where comments that are clear rule violations (and replies if it otherwise breaks the context can be moved out of the maistream. A commenter is free to repost without the rule-breaking material.
I was surprised that the general reaction was positive. I just wanted to solve the particular flame-war without doing anything irrevocable. I’m a great believer in if something isn’t working try something else.
I’m not sure why you think having the option of a thread where members can bicker to their hearts content, and where such posts that crop up in other threads can be moved if necessary will be a
ETA Oops don’t know what happened there. Truncated comment followed by full comment. I’ll leave this one so as not to add to Keiths’s paranoia. 🙂
I don’t think it is a big issue but I think the status quo is best with guano, where comments that are clear rule violations (and replies if it otherwise breaks the context can be moved out of the mainstream). A commenter is free to repost without the rule-breaking material.
I was surprised that the general reaction was positive. I just wanted to solve the particular flame-war without doing anything irrevocable. I’m a great believer in if something isn’t working try something else.
I’m not sure why you think having the option of a thread where members can bicker to their hearts content, and where such posts that crop up in other threads can be moved if necessary will be a distraction. Having a way of allowing those who’d rather not have the inconvenience of scrolling past a bicker-fest and providing a tailored venue for those who enjoy the sport seems less distracting to me, if anything. But, as Lizzie said, it’s fun to experiment and if it doesn’t work out, she can stop it.
I regret not having come up with a more penguin-related title. I’m sure Lizzie would welcome suggestions for a better title. We could offer a prize. Best suggestion, a night out with walto. Second prize, two nights out with Keiths…
I’ll get me coat.
Alan Fox,
🙂
walto,
walto,
I see your comment upthread but I think events have moved on. I think the idea (likely to be refined I suspect) that this thread is now for all those who want or need to have a flame war as well as a place to move comments if a flame war breaks out in another thread.
Regarding which comments of your’s and Keiths that were moved here, it was basically timing. I decided to create this page and move comments after my attempt at persuasion failed. I posted* a comment in the moderation thread announcing my intention and moved comment from around the time of the comment on. I didn’t think it would be fair to move comments made prior to my announcement.
[*To be strictly correct, I thought I had posted a comment but I had a few tabs open, missed the fact I hadn’t properly clicked “post comment” and changed tabs. I didn’t realise my comment hadn’t posted till I had done the housekeeping and had to compose and post a new comment in moderation.]
Anyway, if I haven’t covered something, just raise it and I’ll respond when I can.
Alan,
The problem isn’t with voluntary participation in a Wine Cellar thread, but rather with the notion of moderators moving comments without the authors’ consent.
You’ve shown us that you can’t do so impartially, but even if we were to find someone else for the job, what exactly constitutes “bickering” or “whining” versus legitimate complaint? No moderator should be in the position of making that determination.
Moderation is already causing headaches here. Moving comments to the Wine Cellar will make it worse.
Alan, as I’ve said three times now I think, I don’t really care what date or time you pick for implementation of Wine Cellar rules, but whatever the criteria are for being cellaried (and I don’t think anybody actually knows at this point), ALL posts meeting them should be so treated. You seem to me to have picked a random sample of post-creation comments to move. Go back to any date or time you choose and look for yourself: some subsequent whines were not moved and some subsequent non-whines WERE moved.
The theory that “events have moved on” suggests only that you are perfectly fine not only with the prior randomness and unfairness of your actual implementation, but also with both forums being incomprehensible.
Supposing this new forum is indeed a good idea, I really don’t see why you won’t just do what both keiths and Patrick have suggested: move everything back to Moderation until you figure out what the Rules are going to be and then, starting on some date certain, impartially implement them. This seems obvious to me, and I’m really kind of annoyed at having to repeat this plea over and over. I haven’t heard a reasonable alternative yet.
Just fix this already.
Alan,
Also, you still haven’t addressed this:
Why are you dragging your feet on this? It was your screw-up, so it’s your responsibility to undo the damage.
Cross-posted from the Wine Cellar thread so that Alan won’t miss it:
Alan,
Also, you still haven’t addressed this:
Why are you dragging your feet on this? It was your screw-up, so it’s your responsibility to undo the damage.