Please use this thread for (and only for) alerting admins to moderation issues and for raising complaints arising from particular decisions. We remind participants that TSZ is a benign dictatorship, the property of Dr. Elizabeth Liddle. All decisions regarding policy and implementation are hers alone.
Joe Felsenstein,
Sorry, that’s my poor parsing, a paraphrase of Swamidass’ repeated words in defense of evangelical YECism, something which it does not seem you support.
Mung,
Sure is great then that he’s got W.L. Craig beliebering in him, just like he’s got MNist beliebers in Patrick Trischitta & Nathan Lents, isn’t it? = P https://youtu.be/u5Dkdg5XIZ0
Much like the Allies enabled Hitler by landing on D-Day.
Mung:
Gregory:
Jock has said that he’s not an atheist. I don’t know why he is so reluctant to reveal more.
The moderators removed Mung, who had been appointed by Lizzie, in a coup. The passage of time has done nothing to legitimize that power grab.
The moderators should restore him immediately and unconditionally.
The allies enabled Hitler earlier, reacting to Anschluss by giving him Sudetenland, which everybody knew would lead to annexation of entire Czechoslovakia.
And of course Mung should be in the place where Lizzie appointed him, despite what other mods think. The mods here have never been collegial in spirit and there is no collegial constitution either. The law of the land here is diktat from the absentee owner.
True, except not many of those on the beach had anything to do with that , they paid the price . In the case of those who oppose Trump , they did not ignore his unsuitability for the job, they voted 3 million more times not to have him elected. They impeached him. They turned over the House. The only thing that enables Trump is his supporters.
He choose to quit in protest rather than fight for his point of view .He felt ,I assume ,that the demands by his fellow moderators infringed on his inalienable moderator rights.
However, one could say by quitting he enabled the other moderators ,leaving the put upon theists without a voice at the table. I would not , but that certainly could be argued. If you wanted to.
True, and yet here we are talking on a thread , created to critique and criticize and discuss moderation decisions. There are no disappeared posters and posts. If anything , that is what enables Phoodoo to post. For myself, I like Phoodoo’s passion.
Still ,after all this time, no admonishment from Lizzie, no repercussions against the guilty.
Or the tiniest bit of delegitimization by the owner.
The present moderators should not be able to act unconditionally but mung should, is that your position?
Thanks. And I know it’s OT for the Moderation discussion, but my interpretation is not that Swamidass is leaving evangelical YECs uncriticized, but that his GAE argument is intended to leave the concept of an historical Adam and Eve intact while allowing YECs to accept that humans as a population evolved and had common ancestors with apes and all other organisms. I suspect that YECs are too invested in A&E as sole ancestors of humans to ever accept GAE. It may be that none of their religious traditions actually originally said flatly that there were no other ancestors of humans, but by now they have committed themselves to the idea.
Yes, that’s my take.
I don’t think he expects YECs to rush to GAE. But, by providing an alternative, he hopes to weaken their influence.
No input from Dr Liddle for a while. She has only posted half a dozen comments since January 2016 when she was last participating regularly and the last communication I’ve had from her was back in August 2018.
And the site still functions.
newton,
I guess. And Lizzie has said more than once she is happy to keep providing the funding.
As long you provide the labor.
newton,
Amazing that you still don’t (or won’t) get it. Mung didn’t quit. He was ousted by the other moderators.
Incorrect.
Let’s hear your version of what happened, then.
keiths, You’ve heard what actually occurred from me and it’s all up in previous comments. The summary is Mung decided to withdraw from discussion leaving matters unresolved. He’s welcome to re-engage if he wants.
Yes, I agree with keiths & Erik re: the moderation coup here at TSZ.
So, even if Mung would hesitate about it, shall a Firsted, Seconded, and now Thirded call for Mung’s reinstatement be applied? Even if Mung hesitates, I am now asking also: please give Mung back Moderation status & powers at TSZ. It should be very easy for Alan to do this. There is nothing to lose (other than perhaps a mark against DNA_Jock’s gigantic pride) if Mung is given the powers that Lizzie reserved for him & much to gain in adding at least some balance.
I don’t see Mung as a quitter for no valid reason. We don’t know what was said in private. No doubt quasi-atheist-but-won’t-say-more DNA_Jock acted as a bully & wouldn’t want that seen in public.
Mung may choose not to step forward, at first or ever. But since it is Lizzie’s wish, it should be accepted by Mods, who also only get their ‘powers’ from her.
Mung has also now offered an olive branch:
Is anyone, other than the 2 mods (Neil Rickert & DNA_Jock) & 1 admin (Alan Fox) against Mung’s immediate reinstatement? If so, please explain yourself. Otherwise, it seems time to flip the switch again & reinstate Mung for the health of TSZ.
Alan Fox,
It is not “all up in previous comments”. Please stop lying.
ETA: This is what Mung wrote:
“the fantasy that DNA_Jock concocted.as his justification, that I might do irreparable damage to the site. Perhaps even bar he and Alan and Neil and take over in a coup! Hard to even credit such phantastical thinking as even remotely rational.”
Where is that supposedly “all up in previous comments”, directly showing what DNA_Jock wrote to Mung? Please provide a link if you think you can back up what you now say.
As it is, Alan, you still have something to answer for, in violation of your ‘duties’ here. You posted a thread without the author’s permission. It was in draft form and had not been submitted for publication. Yet you published it, the day before going on vacation last summer. Will you now own up to this or not?
Gregory,
Alan Fox,
Those are simply your own words. Strike one. Stop lying & show us what DNA_Jock did to Mung. Or better, just reinstate Mung. The sooner the better.
Gregory,
I vaguely recall publishing a post of yours and you saying it wasn’t ready. I can’t recall which or when. Didn’t I offer to put it back to draft status and didn’t you say to leave things as was?
If it was in comments here it will still be here.
Alan Fox,
No. Stop lying. You were gone & were not around to respond. Thus, I wrote you nothing, since you told us you’d be going.
Need help remembering then? Can you recall what day you went on vacation last year springtime? Apparently it’s a yearly thing that is coming again soon. If so, it is very relevant now that you remember what you did last year.
Alan Fox,
It was done privately. It’s not in public comments.
Then I don’t know what you are referring to. Can you tell me the title of the OP?
Gregory, Well, I’m not going to release private communications between third parties.
I’m seventy. No I couldn’t tell you without checking.
Alan Fox,
Roughly. At least you know the month, Alan. It’s a yearly thing, apparently. Such patterns aren’t that hard to distinguish. I’d like you to come clean on this, as you were in violation yourself.
When do you usually go on springtime vacation? Please check when you went on vacation last year. Thanks.
I don’t usually go on springtime vacation – I take holidays as it suits. I have more calls on my time between April and September partly due to my wife’s business commitments.
Alan Fox,
Ok, then stop posing as if the coup against Mung was done in public. It wasn’t. He should be reinstated, as keiths, Erik & I are requesting.
Ok, so you can’t remember when you went on vacation in 2019? You announced it here, so that is in the public record. A helper: it was in April.
The basic facts are as I stated. Mung is able to correct any errors or publish any private communications if he wishes
Contrary to what you, Erik and Keiths seem to think, I am one of three active admins here. There was a discussion in progress when Mung decided to withdraw from TSZ. That discussion can be resumed if Mung wishes.
Mung:
“ETA: I absented myself from this site voluntarily, in protest, just as I absented myself from ‘Peaceful Science” voluntarily and in protest.”
Sounds like a choice to absent himself from the site , so now the question becomes whether suspended or fired as moderator. If suspended , he choose to absent himself from the site and moderation duties. Which bring up the question is the suspension still in force? Is Mung still a moderator?
ETA it seems Alan just confirmed mung was still mostly an moderator
So to be clear, your position is he was fired by other moderators, which Lizzie would disapprove of in some alternate reality where she actively participates?
Apologies if I stirred this pot again.
Is this what you are referring to.
newton,
No worries! 😉
newton:
That’s incorrect. Mung had no moderator privileges, because Alan had stripped him of them. In fact, Alan demoted him all the way to Contributor.
Very emotively put. Yes I switched Mung’s permissions pending a discussion with fellow admins which was in progress when Mung decided to leave. I can’t predict how that discussion would have ended. It’s a shame Lizzie did not participate then or since.
Alan,
You stripped him of his moderator privileges, and he was never offered them back. It was an ouster.
Mung withdrew from the discussion and left TSZ. If he wants to resume that discussion he’s welcome.
Alan Fox,
Yes, see further my comment here: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/what-does-s-joshua-swamidass-mean-by-secular-scientist/comment-page-2/#comment-253236
You, Alan Fox, published that OP without my permission and without it being submitted for publication. You did it right before leaving for vacation. Why did you do that? Will you own up to it now?
He should be reinstated immediately without conditions, no discussion needed.
You, Jock and Neil are the ones who screwed up, so it’s your responsibility to fix things and restore Mung to his rightful position.
What is the difference between a “Moderator” and an “Admin”? I was under the impression that Alan Fox was for some reason removed as “Moderator” because of something deviant that he did (I don’t recall being active at the time – having taken several time-outs from TSZ myself), thus he became an “Admin” only, while Neil Rickert & DNA_Jock were the officially “Moderators” at TSZ. Please correct if I wrong understood; not trying to blur, but rather clarify the record.
Sounds like he was protesting his perceived mistreatments.
Nice move , we don’t know but no doubt it was Jock fault .and he hid that fact.
Problem is she also has said she stands behind and trusts the Mods and is loathe to second guess them. A classic case of competing rights. Mung absenting himself made it a moot point.
Can the moderators create the rules they are bound by? We all accept Lizzie can, so it is possible.
One could argue Mung alone was subject to the rules, or being the lone theist he was at the mercy of non-theists. Unfortunately Lizzie is a non-theist so we all are.
Interesting dilemma.
Continue on with cross examination of Alan. Just one last thing, why would he go to the trouble to answer questions if he was all that you say he is? There is nothing to gain.
You’re right that I published it. I presume it was in error.
I was absent from April to late August, yes.
Presumably because I mistakenly thought you wanted it published.
OK! I must have misremembered having a PM discussion with you over it and must have assumed from your comment that being prematurely published wasn’t a huge problem. I’m sorry if it was. Is there something that can be done now?
I believe there is no difference here , Alan ,at one point, stepped away from actively moderating due to time constraints/ access issues.
I suggest you buy the site and all your desires can be fulfilled