Please use this thread for alerting admins to moderation issues and for discussion or complaints arising from particular decisions.
The Skeptical Zone
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
Please use this thread for alerting admins to moderation issues and for discussion or complaints arising from particular decisions.
Patrick, to Alan:
Yes, and they not only give the appearance of bias, they constitute extremely strong evidence for bias.
Yes. His moderation is quite selective, for fairly obvious reasons.
You are also not suggesting that he isn’t abusing his privileges. 🙂
And it’s difficult to avoid the appearance of unfairness if one’s actions are in fact biased.
Yes, we’re all advocating for silent toleration. In fact, we’re demanding it. Please comply.
keiths is being rather coy about whether or not he is actually asking Alan to resign as moderator.
In the several years I’ve been here I have had zero disagreements with moderators. I’ve had maybe half a dozen posts moved to guano.
I would be ignoring this current dispute except that I was specifically asked for an opinion. My opinion is that those who are having trouble with the moderators deserve it. And more.
I am not going to repeat this or defend it. It’s just My Opinion. It’s based on my gut reaction to various posting styles. I am here for amusement, not to adjudicate strawberry thieves.
Motive mongering, Mung?
Mung,
I haven’t been coy at all. In response to your question, I wrote:
I haven’t directly asked him to resign, but I want him to, and I see no evidence that he hasn’t gotten the message. Why is the distinction so important to you?
I’d be just as happy if he were removed from the job instead of resigning.
Of course you haven’t. Do you need someone to show you how it’s done?
I don’t think Alan is more biased than anyone else, and considerably less so than many. I do think he has limited time, like us all, and that can result in only reviewing certain comments which in turn can result in the appearance of bias.
Well, you amuse me, too, so I hope you’ll choose to use the Ignore button rather than stop participating.
IMHO…
I think the moderators here are showing remarkable restraint and patience, far more than many deserve.
Basta!
Patrick,
The evidence suggests that Alan’s highly selective moderation had nothing to do with time constraints and everything to do with the grudge he was nursing.
Tom Mueller:
Tom,
You might want to familiarize yourself with the facts before rendering judgment.
If you would like to defend Alan’s actions after doing so, I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.
petrushka,
Exactly. It’s just your opinion, with no support offered.
So?
#StopCrimesAgainstSkepticism
True dat.
Don’t worry Tom,
We’re waiting for keiths to demand that Alan resign before we start to convene a jury.
I’m guessing that Lizzie’s grad students are collecting enough data to write an encyclopedia on abnormal brain signaling.
I’m also guessing I am about to have my first post deposited in guano.
I have to admit that some of the posts and ripostes were hilarious – especially the hashtags.
Tom,
I think that was sufficiently vague to get a pass.
Tom,
I thought the hashtags were pretty lame, like most of Mung’s jokes. But I will admit to laughing out loud at the incongruity of Mung, of all people, using the hashtag #FightForTruth.
Good for you!
Mung,
Yeah. Go figure — that’s the one that turned out to be funny, but you appear to have been offering it in dead earnest:
That’s why it is funny.
#DipShit
Mung:
Exactly. It backfired on you.
That’s why it is funny.
#DipShit
A moderation proposal:
As most of you know, I’m opposed to the guanoing of comments. Given that it’s TSZ policy, however, at least for now, I have a proposal that will make it less onerous for commenters here.
Lizzie has emphasized that the movement of comments to Guano should not be considered a punishment or a reprimand, but rather a simple act of housekeeping. She has also made it clear that she does not want to control what commenters read or write.
My proposal is that when a comment is moved to Guano, the moderator should provide a link to it in the original thread — ideally at the location of the original comment, if possible.
That way commenters who want to read the guanoed comment can do so easily and then return to the original thread by clicking the back buttion. Commenters who wish to avoid guanoed comments can simply refrain from clicking the links.
The current system penalizes both the author of the guanoed comment and also the folks who wish to read it. That is not Lizzie’s intent.
keiths,
Don’t see the need. Guano’d comments show in the side bar. A click on the thread and anyone can see what’s there. The commenter can repost minus offending material, link or complain in this thread. You have taken all three options.
Lizzie has declared she intended to encourage dialogue across widely differing views. Rules here exist and are applied in support of that aim.
Alan,
That’s irrelevant. This is Lizzie’s site, not yours. Her stated intent trumps your unwillingness to change.
Until they scroll off. Readers who come later also matter, Alan.
Besides that, even when Guanoed comments are still in the side bar, readers do not know where they came from. Adding a link in the original thread solves that problem. It’s a benefit to readers.
Far better to provide links in the original thread. This is about making it easier, not harder, for people to read what they wish.
That penalizes the commenter. Lizzie explicitly indicated that guanoing is not supposed to be a penalty. By placing a link in the original thread, you largely eliminate the penalty, in accordance with her stated intent.
None of which is incompatible with my proposal.
I forgot a fourth option. Edit out offending material before posting!
Alan,
That doesn’t guarantee that the comment won’t be guanoed, though it ought to. Your recent actions demonstrate the problem.
In any case my proposal concerns all comments that are guanoed, legitimately or otherwise.
Yes, moderators should start doing that — just as soon as moderation become a paid job and not a volunteer affair.
I’ll suggest an alternative — how about posters not getting up on their high horse whenever one of their posts is guanoed. That would do far more to improve the site.
I agree with the goal of leaving a link to the Guano’d comment, but technically it’s a major pain in the neck with the current WordPress configuration. I’ve briefly looked for a plugin that supports it, but haven’t found anything. If you’d like to do the research, PM me with anything you find.
In the meantime, the onus is on the original commenter to repost without violating the rules.
Given that I am under serious consideration to become a moderator I thought people might want to hear my opinion.
The moderators already have enough to do.
Elizabeth is wrong, Guano is punitive. It’s a slap on the wrist. Don’t do that! We want to discourage that sort of behavior and that’s something keiths can certainly appreciate.
People should follow the rules or post in Noyau.
Moderators are trusted to use their best judgment.
I think we need more anticipatory Guanoing. A moderator can often tell when thing might be about to get out of hand and it’s better to act sooner rather than later. A post may not actually violate the rules, but could lead to escalation that might encourage others to violate the rules. Posts like that ought to be sent to Guajno too. Ounce of prevention and all that.
Thank you for your meaningless vote.
Mung,
Guano is punitive, no doubt about that. I’ve pointed that out to Lizzie myself, including here:
So Guano is punitive, but Lizzie has stated that she doesn’t want it to be:
keiths, to Lizzie:
Lizzie:
Mung,
That would include you, presumably?
When have I ever held myself to the same standard I require of others?
Good point.
Mung,
Apart from the fact that, like Queen Elizabeth, Lizzie is never wrong in her own fiefdom, I agree with much of what you say. Lizzie has used “de-escalation” as a strategy and I try to emulate the technique (well, mostly).
Just my two cents worth (but since Canada has gotten rid of the penny, it may not be worth much).
I have never had a comment guanoed that I didn’t suspect it would go there when I posted it. I like the idea of a link but I can also see that it may be difficult and time consuming. However. A compromise may be for the moderator to simply comment that he has moved comment(s) to guano, as one of the moderators does routinely. In that way you can go to them if you so wish.
Acartia,
Indeed, remarking that I’ve moved a comment is common courtesy, linking is superfluous.
I have gotten into the habit of editing the comment url to contain the complete page and comment number info. e.g.,
/moderation-issues-3/comment-page-15/#comment-120520
From a post sent to Guano it’s then easy to get back to the original context. That puts the burden on the poster not the mods and if you’re not actually quoting anyone the post probably really does belong in Guano.
Patrick,
I hope to snatch myself from the jaws of employment within the next few months, so I’ll have more time to do research then. At that point I’ll probably focus not on Guano links but rather on finding (or writing) code to implement the “moderation as a subscription service” proposal that Lizzie likes. That will solve a lot of the problems related to moderation, since readers won’t be affected by moderation unless they actively choose to be.
Or to link to the guanoed comment, which is what I’ve been doing.
Alan,
No, linking is not superfluous, because it saves the reader from having to do the work of figuring out which comment(s) in Guano came from the thread in question. When the link is placed at the original location of the guanoed comment, it also saves the reader from having to figure out where within the thread the comment came from.
I accept that linking is extra work and that the latter in particular would be difficult to do, given the current plugins, but that in no way means that linking would be superfluous, as you claim.
What about the post that may lead to a post that may lead to escalation? There has to be a first cause because infinite regressions are impossible. Let’s Guano God while it’s not too late!
Maybe that’s why Guano begins with a capital G.
Weird. I thought you already had.
Good point. But in actual practice our mods can only see so far into the future, so I don’t think we have to be concerned about any actual infinite regress. I guess Elizabeth could shut down the site just to be safe.
Or she could ignore your ridiculous suggestions and choose someone else for mod
I vote for Frankie or Mapou.