A working version of FMM’s design detection game is available.
Download and install the applicable version of “Processing”.
https://processing.org/download/?processing
Get the fifthmonarchyman progam code from here, and paste it into the Processing script area.
Sample data here
http://pastebin.com/raw/MjV8RmvW
You need two files in the same folder as the Processing executable.
real.txt and fake.txt
The testing and such starts here
test strings
fifthmvonarchyman,
You’ve got that backwards. You need to make your argument explicit and your operational definitions clear before any form of testing can support or disconfirm it.
Further, you claim to have played your game in a spreadsheet, which means that it must be done. Yet you remain strangely coy about providing a detailed example of how you would apply it to the strings that petrushka provided. One might reasonably draw the conclusion that your game does not actually exist.
Actually, perception is full of tricks. Proofreading is quite difficult. I’ve seen typos in best selling books that were vetted by professional proofreaders.
And I’ve posted things that contained multiple typos.
There’s a whole field of psychology dealing with pattern recognition. And a whole internet arena devoted to breaking captcha scrambling.
I know what I’m testing whether you do you not.
I can run an experiment and evaluate results even if you have no clue what Is going on.
In fact I do a lot of that here.
I am not being coy
I simply want you to actually play the game, Instead of me doing the work for you.
Petrushka has provided everything necessary for you to explore his strings in this very thread. You could do so in very short order if you wanted to
I’m just running an experiment to see if you are actually curious about any of this at all.
If you are not it is not worth my time to try and explain it all to you
peace
I never said it was not difficult.
Difficult is not the same thing as impossible
peace
Since FMM to respond to questions about what constitutes real data, and whether it can be distinguished from scrambled data, I am going to assert that it can’t. We have several thousand posts on the topic, and not a single successful demonstration.
I submitted my strings as an opportunity for you to demonstrate proof of concept.
Again real data is simply any string you are evaluating.
You can asset that it can’t be distinguished from scrambled data if you want. We can test that hypothesis.
In fact the authors of the financial paper have already tested it with some strings
aint science cool
peace
Let me make this clear. You have not even provided the necessary procedure for playing the game. You have derided us for not playing, but no one knows what it means to play.
You have a set of numbers. Exactly what are you supposed to do with them?
I’m speaking basic mechanics here. Steps one, two, three.
The description of what you are doing under the covers just confuses me. Are we looking for a difference between the original and the .8 r modified string, or what?
How about some instructions?
Of course scrambled data is different. The question is whether you can sort it into piles. I’ve given you an opportunity to demonstrate that you can.
I can’t.
I know you did.
The Financial game already demonstrates proof of concept. There is no need to do it again
You have the ability to test your strings if you wish.
I tested your first one and gave you my results. I can very easily distinguish your real string from a model that is close
You said you did not have the same results.
The point of making the game shareable is so that we compare the results of different observers in an objective way.
It’s my hypothesis that if you did not know in advance what you were evaluating you would have similar results as me. I can’t wait to test that one
peace
have you played the financial game?
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
There’s nothing to be curious about. You don’t even care enough about the results to provide detailed examples of how to play your game. There is literally no one on this thread who knows how to play it. Including you.
Prove me wrong.
fifthmonarchyman,
The game described in the Financial Turing Test paper and your vague, hand waving description of something that appears not to exist are not remotely the same thing.
nuff said.
Why should I bother if there is nothing to be curious about?
peace
have you played the Financial Turing Test game?
peace
Second request. Could someone please post a link to the financial game?
http://arora.ccs.neu.edu/v4/tool/login.jsp
peace
I click to train and get a blank screen.
Tried with two different browsers. Blank screen.
fifthmonarchyman,
I will, as soon as you answer the questions I’ve asked about your success criteria.
Incidentally, that comment demonstrates that I understand the paper and the Financial Turing Test better than you do.
petrushka,
For me it says that Java is blocked. Damn right it is. I’m not taking the risk of enabling that.
I do not have java blocked. I checked. It’s enabled.
But this is a mistake. The most you can say is that there is no known algorithm that would do it in a way that you find satisfactory.
They differ by one letter.
Strictly speaking, phrases do not have meanings. We have meanings.
Okay, I’m being pedantic. But the point is that algorithms deal with formal properties, such as the differences in which letters are used (“they differ by one letter”). Algorithms do not deal with semantic issues (unless it is formal semantics).
did you read the paper?
peace
I kind of figured that was a likely motivation however whether your confidence you know what you are testing and that your evaluations are justified is the unanswered question.
Did you read this? Sounds like Maguire agrees with Neil.
“It means that you would not be able to achieve the same results in finite time, using finite memory, using a physical machine,” says Maguire. “It doesn’t necessarily mean that there is some magic going on in the brain that involves some forces that can’t be explained physically. It is just so complex that it’s beyond our abilities to reverse it and decompose
Neuroscientist Anil Seth at the University of Sussex, UK, applauds the team for exploring consciousness mathematically. But he is not convinced that brains do not lose information.“Brains are open systems with a continual turnover of physical and informational components,” he says. “Not many neuroscientists would claim that conscious contents require lossless memory.”
Maguire acknowledges that their proof would not hold up if information integration in the brain is reversible. “Maybe, if you had a very clever algorithm, you could still break down peoples’ memories and edit them.””
Tried the financial game on a third computer and got plugin not supported.
I agree noncomputable does not mean magic. It just means noncomputable
Correct. If integration is reversible then it can be reversed.
Suppose we created an replica of newton exactly the same as you in every way except he was a African nun, Would he still be newton?
peace
FYI.
I haven’t played the financial game for months.
I’m getting a java error as well now.
Please work at it for a bit try some different settings and if you still can’t get in I will try to step you through my version of game from scratch.
It will be immensely better for everyone if we can start with the original game instead of my crudely coded copy.
If we must start with my game it might make sense to wait till it’s shareable so we call all do it together just one time
peace
fifthmvonarchyman,
You keep ignoring the fact that you claimed to have played your game in a spreadsheet. That means that it is possible for you to take the strings provided by petrushka and provide step-by-step, detailed examples of how to play it, complete with screenshots.
The fact that you haven’t despite repeated requests speaks volumes.
I’ve been in the coding business a while, and I never saw a program get tired and die.
I’m betting the financial game has been taken down for repairs.
Possibly because an actual mathematician took a look at it.
Just a thought.
The game is contained in the files in the OP of this very thread, If you were actually curious you could have played it for your self long ago.
Sure I could do that but I don’t much see the point in doing so for you, You have already conceded that you aren’t at all curious about any of this.
petrushka on the other hand seems to have a little bit of curiosity but is having difficulty grasping the concept for some reason.
I will try to give him a hand as needed
peace
The paper is now several years old. The testing is done and the results have been presented, From the perspective of the authors the game serves no current purpose except to provide context for the paper.
I think that what has happened is that it is not compatible with the newer versions of Java.
Did you get my game to run? What does is look like?
Do you see running line graphs that are replaced by a black screen after a few seconds?
peace
fifthmvonarchyman,
I don’t believe you. You have not demonstrated any ability to do so.
Or you could just take the strings he provided and give a step-by-step detailed demonstration.
Unless, of course, you can’t.
I really don’t care if you believe me or not. You have admitted that you aren’t even curios about any of this. Apparently you are just posting here to stir the pot. I simply don’t have any desire to participate in such foolishness
You have repeatedly claimed that you could quickly put together something that can do better than humans on the Financial game and now we find out that you haven’t even played it to know what you are up against
No offense but you have totally forfeited any grounds to make any demands whatsoever in this enterprise,
On the other hand petrushka despite being a critic seems willing to have a look so I will be happy to give him a hand.
You might take a cue from him
peace
fifthmonarchyman,
Let me put this in words small enough for even a creationist to understand:
Put up or shut up.
demonstration of what?
the game simply allows you to view strings in tandem and gives you feedback to let you know if you chose correctly. There is nothing dark or mysterious or difficult
it’s a simple little gizmo for comparing strings,
peace
put up what?
peace
May I ask why you ask these questions if you don’t read the answers?
How could I have posted a screen shot image of your game if I didn’t play it?
Exactly what is it comparing? How about some instructions?
Let me clarify. Are we supposed to supply two different strings, or does your program create the comparison string? I am confused by the discussion of how your program works. It sounds as if you are taking an original string and manipulating it. Perhaps manipulating both.
hey petrushka,
The instructions for playing the game are beyond simple
1) Press the space bar to reset
2) Quickly look at the two strings and choose the one you think is the real one
3) run your mouse over the corresponding box if it turns green you were correct
(you only have a few seconds to do this before the entire screen goes black)
4) repeat steps 1-3 until you are right 100% of the time
Hint: try looking for various patterns until you hit on the right one
Does that help?
peace
You supply the strings.
The program is just a platform for comparison
Peace
PS do you see the “W” pattern in the bottom string?
before we discuss how the strings are created. I want to make sure you understand how the game works
peace
You implied that the real string was always on the top.
This is simply not the case. It made me think that you have not actually tried the game but just downloaded it. You also said you could not see any difference in the strings.
I’m just trying to get a handle on the difficulties you are apparently having
peace
In the case of the paper uncomputable means the assumption of uncomputability and lossless memory. This assumption seems at odds with experimental observations. ” Not many neuroscientists would claim that conscious contents require lossless memory.”
Yep and the mathematics would be disproved
So if you call something is uncomputable it remains uncomputable no matter if it is or not?
Since you have neglected to provide any instructions for the use of the program, there is no way to play it as you intend.
The downloaded program always opens two files, real and fake. Real is always on top.
In the absence of instructions, how is a person supposed to play the game?
That would be nice. I created a thread to ask you how to play it.
How do define ” right one” ? In other words what makes it right and the other ,not right?
fifthmonarchyman,
My response is in Noyau.