First, a disclaimer. I am not seeking to insult or label people. My goal is to start a dialogue about a development that deeply concerns me. This development is not US-specific, but is occurring in Russia, Israel, Europe and undoubtedly other countries as well. However, since the US seems to be drawing a lot of attention lately, it seems logical to focus on the Trump administration.
Let’s start with the question in the title. During a previous discussion with TSZ-residents dazz and Erik, I initially resisted the “fascism” label for the Trump adminstration. In my opinion, that label is often applied too eagerly and I wanted to preserve the term for movements that objectively fit the term. The fascists from beginning of the 20th century were militarist and resorted to violence, for example through paramilitary forces such as the infamous Sturmabteilung in Germany. This is way more radical than their modern far-right counterparts, such as the German Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) or the French Rassemblement National, which mostly seek political influence through democratic and parliamentary means. But what then makes a political party or movement a fascist one? The characteristics of fascism I had to memorize for history class in high school were:
- Ultranationalism
- Admiration for strong charismatic leaders
- Preoccupation with racial purity
- Anti-liberalism
- Populism
- Militarism
The striving for racial purity is currently replaced by nativism, but otherwise the Trump administration is ticking a lot of boxes here. Still, I noted a lack of militarism (The “no new wars” claim). Also the fact that experts were not using that label weighed strongly in my opinion that it was premature to openly call modern far-right movements fascist. That time I said:
Of course, I am not a historian nor a politologist so once the experts start calling the Trump administration a fascist regime I will gladly follow suit.
Fast forward one year. The Trump regime broke its campaign promise and has started two illegal military conflicts, one in Venezuela and one in Iran. It has threatened both Canada and Denmark, two allied NATO members, with military action. The regime has also proved to be hostile towards its own citizens: Two peaceful demonstrants have been executed by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) during the Minneapolis protests. Note that ICE is beginning to look a lot like a paramilitary force. Also, i have since learned that the Department of Defense has been renamed “Department of War”. I cannot decide whether that is more creepy or more childish. So far for “no militarism”.
Importantly, I found that professional politologists started openly calling the Trump regime fascist. Recently, I read the book “Dit is Fascisme” (no translation needed, I trust) by Rosan Smits. Smits is a politologist who for years researched radicalization and violence in war zones. Currently, she is adjunct editor-in-chief at the online news platform De Correspondent. Her ideas are strongly influenced by historian Robert Paxton and philosopher Jason Stanley. Robert Paxton has been specializing in Vichy France and fascism. Like me, he initially resisted the “fascism” label for Trumpism, but changed his mind after the Capitol attack. Jason Stanly wrote the book “How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them” in which he outlined ten “pillars of fascism”. These people I definitely regard as experts in relevant fields. In the book, Rosan Smits argues that it is not useful to distinguish between radical right, right-wing extremism and fascism. Rather we should think of these movements as consecutive steps in a progression towards ever more radical fascism. She compares this to a plan-of-action (draaiboek) that all proto-fascist movements go through. She has no problem calling the Trump administration fascist. In fact, this is even the title of chapter 2 in the book: “Het fascistische regime-Trump”. Again, I trust this does not need translation.
So now I am not sure whether it is right to call the Trump administration fascist. There is little doubt that Trumpism sports several hallmarks of classical fascism, such as an appeal to a mythical past (Make America Great Again), anti-intellectualism, a culture of victimhood and violent hostility towards critical counterforces. Therefore, it seems defensible to call Trumpism a form of fascism. On the other hand, the term “fascism” seems to generate more heat than light, often rendering reasoned debate impossible. Therefore, it could be more useful to focus on the actions of the adminstration than trying to affix a label to it.
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, I would appreciate if people could do their best to create a “reasoned debate” in the thread. That is, I would like to hear the reasons you have for agreeing or disagreeing with the premise of the post. A discussion that only feeds on fear and anger will only serve as fertile soil for fascism, whatever you take that to be.
Which leads me to wonder about the voting public. As the Indiana primary results show clearly, Congressional Republicans are cowards for a good reason. But Trump has never been ideological one way or another – his only values are greed and retribution. There is nothing about a loyal opposition, or a philosophy of government, or a vision of a better nation, in Trump’s mind. He has no clue what the “rule of law” is supposed to be, and he’d reject it if he knew. So the nation is being reconstructed according to what the oligarchs want, and the oligarchs are controlling the media from which most of the nation gets their “information”. These people (Sundar Pichai, Zuckerburg, Bezos, Ellison, Musk) figured out long ago that political parties are obsolete.
Corneel,
They wanted immigration laws followed. This was the first administration to ignore the laws and open the border.
colewd, to Corneel:
We’ve been over this already:
colewd:
keiths:
Try to wean yourself off the propaganda. It’s unhealthy to keep parroting that stuff.
Meanwhile, do you stand behind this statement?
Of all the things Trump has done, is there truly nothing that you consider to be morally worse than Biden’s immigration policies?
Polls don’t matter. Election results matter. By the way, a poll attributing 34% approval to Trump is about the same as Nazi Party’s election results in Germany before Hitler remade it into Third Reich (and elections became rigged and irrelevant), so if you intend to imply that Trump’s approval rating is low, you’re miserably failing.
At this presumably low point, Trump’s approval rating is very high by the measure of actual democracies. At this presumably low point, Americans are as enthusiastic for Trump as the German people ever were for Hitler.
keiths,
What makes you believe this is propaganda? The data does not support your assertion.
https://chatgpt.com/share/6a009635-0aa0-83e8-86e1-e72e5c6d82c8
We have been over this. It has been established that you do not know what encounters are. Besides, “open borders” versus “closed borders” (which is a difference between Biden and Trump that only exists in bullshit propaganda that you swallow without any critical thought) does not imply much about fascism and democracy, so you’re off topic. (Or it can mean that you prefer fascism, but this is of course a given because you keep hinting exclusively in that direction.)
In actual reality, borders were not open under Biden. To say that they were is delusional Trumpite cultist idiocy.
keiths:
colewd:
It’s classic propaganda — a blatantly false claim that Trump and the Republicans have spread in order to whip up negative emotions toward their political enemy, Joe Biden. It worked spectacularly well on you, leading you to breathlessly characterize Biden’s immigration policies as “the most egregious and immoral act of any President I am aware of.”
You like to throw the propaganda accusation around, but you seem unable to recognize it when the propaganda is coming from your side.
Nothing in that ChatGPT response contradicts what I’ve already told you, which is that ten million people were turned away at the border during Biden’s term. You yourself said
Tell that to the ten million people who got turned away. By your own criterion, Biden didn’t have an open border policy. You fell for the propaganda.
Back to my question. Of all the things Trump has done, is there truly nothing that you consider to be morally worse than Biden’s immigration policies?
And do you really think that stricter immigration policies are indicative of an “ideal attempt at democracy”? You wrote:
How do stricter border controls transform a fascist regime into a democratic one?
Erik:
Polls matter because they correlate with elections. There’s a reason Republicans have been panicking and going on a gerrymandering spree.
The poll results I cited disprove your claim that “Americans are fine with Trump’s dishonesty and criminality”:
They prove the opposite. The poll results say that Americans are as eager for Trump right now as Germans ever were for Hitler. And until now Americans were much more in favour of Trump, most crucially during elections. Also, crucially, Trump has not been jailed, but remains the leader of the Republican party.
If Trump is a fascist, or at least an authoritarian, then Americans are fine with fascism. Americans keep voting for and approving a fascist. They are not removing him from office.
34% of people cannot tell the difference between good and evil, between sane and insane, between lawful and unlawful, between a politician and bullshit artist scammer pedo nepotist insurrectionist corrupt liar dictator. That’s a very high number and it was close to 50% very recently. Think of yourself – what if you were not able to tell sane and insane apart 34% of the time? Would you say you are doing well? ETA: But it’s even worse. Since Trump’s approval has been shrinking, the people in this 34% are hardcore deliberate choosers of the insane. This is what Americans are.
The critical mass of Americans are, at their heart, perfectly fine with authoritarianism and the constitution provides no checks or balances against it. When an authoritarian is voted into office, he does not need to change the constitution to be able to institute an authoritarian rule.
keiths,
I showed you data of 2 plus million crossings per year reducing by 10x in a single year. This was a problem for the Biden administration based on facts. You’re making an unsupported claim that this is propaganda. Do you understand that Biden reversed the stay in Mexico policy?
colewd,
This couldn’t be simpler. You said:
Your statement is false. The border wasn’t open. People couldn’t enter the country at will. Ten million were turned away. This is not difficult.
Trump and the Republicans lied to you about Biden in order to get you riled up. It worked. You bought it, and you were even riled up to the point of declaring that Biden’s immigration policies were “the most egregious and immoral act of any President I am aware of.” You fell for the propaganda.
Here are my questions again:
Of all the things Trump has done, is there truly nothing that you consider to be morally worse than Biden’s immigration policies?
Do you really think that stricter immigration policies are indicative of an “ideal attempt at democracy”? You wrote:
How do stricter border controls transform a fascist regime into a democratic one?
keiths:
Erik:
Only 26% of us think that Trump is a good role model. 74% of us don’t. Your statement that “Americans are fine with Trump’s dishonesty and criminality” is therefore false. Americans are not a monolith, and the opinion of 26% of us does not represent the opinion of the entire population.
What’s up with you and Bill? Both of you are ridiculously overstating your cases.
If Bill wants to complain about Biden’s immigration policies, that’s fine, but he should stick to the facts. As we’ve pointed out to him, Biden did not have an open border policy, and it’s ridiculous of him to echo the propaganda he’s been fed.
If you want to complain about the 26% of Americans who think Trump is a good role model, then be my guest. I think it’s ridiculous too. But why paint Americans with a broad brush when it’s only 26% of us? Why not stick to the facts?
You guys need to learn to think in shades of gray. Overstating your case only weakens it.
As all Americans, you are ridiculously clueless about politics.
Who is the president in USA? Trump is. How did he become the president? If Americans elected him, then Americans are in favour of fascism insofar as Trump is fascist. If Americans did not elect him and Trump is in power against their will, then USA is not a democratic country.
These are your choices: Either USA turned fascist now by having Trump elected (and note that this is the second time Trump is in power – the first time may have been a fluke, but the second time you don’t have this excuse anymore) or USA had fair authoritarian potential by its constitution all along. I personally go with the latter – American constitution was flawed all along, but having had a stable country for three centuries, there is no way to convince any American of this.
Americans are permanently entrenched in their propaganda. Even while you’re drowning in fascism right now, you deny you have fascism. Bill is in a more comfy position: He likes fascism.
keiths,
I think you first need to admit the Biden administration created a severe problem at the boarder that cost them the election.
Do you understand that ending remain in Mexico attracted people to our border and let them enter at the rate greater than 2 million per month?
Ending remain in Mexico allowed them to stay in the US after crossing the boarder.
You are in denial on the far left policies that are making the Democratic Party obsolete as an alternative. We need alternatives to maintain a democratic nation. The Democratic’s have no king rallies yet they are the cause of their own loss of power through horrible policies that the voters do not want.
I don’t know enough about the US voting system to comment, but there are plenty of large democracies that manage to stably maintain multiple political parties. It must be possible.
Yep, that’s the idea. I’ll grant it has its downsides, but at least it forces parties to cooporate instead of constantly antagonize.
It is very worrying that the Republicans do not succeed in initiating internal discussion. There must be plenty Republican politicians that disapprove of the direction that the party is going, but somehow they are being kept hostage by MAGA. Here in the Netherlands we had 27 (!) parties to choose from during last years elections. I will be the first to agree that this is not ideal either, but the upside is that the far-right have scattered into half a dozen bickering factions.
colewd:
The economy was consistently the number one issue in voters’ minds. They bizarrely thought, by a 9-point margin, that Trump would be better at handling economic issues. Far too many of them actually bought Trump’s bogus promises, like his repeated claim that he was going to reduce energy costs by 50% in the first 12 months. Did you fall for that one?
Anyway, the thread topic is fascism, not the election. You said
My questions are aimed at getting you to explain your reasoning. It’s clear that you don’t want to, possibly because you have belatedly realized how absurd your statement was. Now you’re trying to change the subject.
Let’s get back to the topic at hand. Why do you think that fascism under Trump could be “the ideal attempt at democracy”?
Erik:
With that blanket statement, you just made my point for me. Thank you.
Shades of gray, Erik.
Flint:
In that case you could simply decline to select the Democrat as one of your ranked choices. You’re not obligated to fill in all the blanks.
I too think that your claim that the Biden administration opened the borders is bogus, but that will be for another thread. At least I now know what button was pressed to acquire your support, so thanks for that. The sentiment you express is also widespread here in Europe, and here too it benefits far-right parties.
Back on topic: the idea that the will of “the citizens” was opposed by the Biden administration is populist of course, not democratic. Roughly equal portions of US citizens are of the position that immigration should increase, decrease or remain the same. So I am a little skeptical that you are correctly portraying the wishes of “the citizens”. Are you of the opinion that free speech of people proclaiming positions oppposing yours should be protected? Do you think the Trump administration is doing a good job at that?
Corneel:
Bill pretends to care about what the citizens want, just as he pretended to care about what independent voters want. What he really cares about is whatever Trump wants.
Here are some April polling numbers (Pew Research) on Trump and immigration:
Bill might be interested in the actual laws, and their history. He will find that U.S. borders have never been “closed”. I wonder if he has ever heard of Ellis Island. I wonder if he realizes that nearly every American citizen descends from immigrants? That Trump’s (and Steven Miller’s) ancestors were fairly recent immigrants?
The quotas for immigration from different countries has long been a hot potato, and changes in those quotas have produced waves of Swedes, Finns, Italians, Irish, etc. Not to mention slaves. I wonder which of these groups Bill has decided to hate?
I think part of Bill’s attitude comes from the “I’ve got mine, now drop dead” school of thought, and part from what the right wing calls the mongrelization of America, and the fear that in another generation or so we will be a minority-majority nation, more brown than white. There is some indication that trying to prevent all immigration (from populations that want to be here – Western European nations never fill their quotas) does more harm than good. Immigrants generally want to assimilate, to learn the language, to work hard and pay taxes, to obey the laws, to provide a better life for their children. Why would Bill want to keep those people out, and deport those already here? What could he possibly gain to offset the enormous loss in taxes, trust, community, labor, he wants us to suffer?
Flint:
It’s because he’s swallowed the propaganda and thinks that illegal immigrants are the devil’s spawn:
He’s gullible and probably believes Trump’s incessant and xenophobic anti-immigrant rhetoric.
Bill, I’m curious about how deep your gullibility runs. Did you believe Trump when he said this about Haitian immigrants in Ohio?
Here are the facts about immigration and crime. From a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science:
And a Cato Institute study:
Bill, if you would learn to think critically and to fact check, you might start to notice how often Trump and the Republicans lie to you and how often you fall for it. We shouldn’t have to keep pointing it out to you.
keiths,
Hi Flint
Do you believe that the Democratic Party does not lie? The reason I pressed Keiths to admit that the boarder was a problem is that this is an area that democrats lied about for 4 years.
The number one issue of Government is to keep us safe. Not having control of who comes in and out of our country is a major safety issue.
I have yet to see any critical thinking demonstrated on these political topics. I only see defence of liberal ideology despite the facts..
No, it’s not. In the U.S. Constitution you have the Second Amendment – it is your honorable duty and uninfringed right to keep yourself safe.
The number one duty of the government is to govern as per the constitution, certainly in peacetime. Defence of citizens becomes relevant during times of war or invasion, which USA pretty much never had. The last time USA was invaded by a foreign army was 1812.
Then there’s also this dictum by Benjamin Franklin, “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” This directly applies to colewd and his ilk, showing that they know nothing about how politics works, be it democracy or republic. They have irrecoverably lost the plot.
colewd:
No, the reason you pressed me on it is that you were in a bind and trying to change the subject. You had made a number of claims that you couldn’t back up:
You can’t defend those claims, so you’re trying to change the subject.
Both legal and undocumented immigrants are far less dangerous than US citizens. Should we deport citizens and keep the immigrants? I’ll repeat these statistics:
And:
colewd:
I have yet to see you back that up even once in more than a year of discussion. Meanwhile you fall for right-wing propaganda, including Trump’s own lies, on practically a daily basis. Wouldn’t you like to do better?
Self-awareness, thy name is not Bill Cole.
colewd,
Here’s another bit of propaganda you fell for. You wrote:
The number of undocumented people allowed to enter the US as the result of ending the Remain in Mexico policy (officially the “Migrant Protection Protocols”, an Orwellian “war is peace” name if there ever was one) was only several thousand per month on average, not 2 million. You’re off by a factor of at least 200.
Not only is that a ridiculous overestimate of the impact of ending Remain in Mexico, it would even be a ridiculous overestimate of total illegal immigration during Biden’s term, which was a net of only 5-7 million over four years, or less than 150,000 per month on average.
You appear to be helpless when it comes to recognizing and fact-checking propaganda.
Now back to the thread topic. Why do you think that fascism under Trump could be “the ideal attempt at democracy”?
Some stunning Trump (dis)approval numbers from a new CNN/SSRS poll. Format is approve/disapprove.
The most important issue facing the country:
keiths,
I think you agree with everything I have claimed at this point except a slight change in the numbers.
Do you base your views on single poll results?
colewd:
Are you kidding? Your 200x overstatement is not “a slight change in the numbers”. It’s off by two orders of magnitude. You fell for the propaganda — again.
Illegal immigration is down under Trump, but it was never the cataclysm he said it was under Biden. Less than 150,000 per month came in under Biden, not the 2 million you claimed, and those people are far less likely to commit crimes than US-born citizens:
So, no, I don’t agree at all with your characterization of Biden’s immigration policy as “the most egregious and immoral act of any President” and the cause of a surge in “murdered Americans, massive human trafficking and synthetic drug death from overdose.” That’s pure propaganda.
When will you and your fellow cult members finally recognize that Trump doesn’t respect you enough to tell you the truth? He doesn’t care about you — he just uses you to his advantage.
Two things worth mentioning about Trump and immigration:
1) Even though the numbers are down under Trump, that isn’t enough for him. He is so thoroughly dishonest that he and his administration continually lie about it, claiming that there are literally zero illegal border crossings.
2) Trump isn’t tough on illegal immigration because he cares about the safety of Americans. He’s tough on it because he’s a racist and because it’s good for him politically. A prime example: Toward the end of Biden’s term, there was a bipartisan bill to strengthen border security that was widely endorsed, including by the border patrol agents’ union. Trump told Republicans to kill it. Why? Because he wanted to exploit immigration as a campaign issue, and passing the bill would be “a gift to the Democrats”. You claim to be concerned about the (overstated) danger of immigrant crime, but Trump wasn’t. He didn’t care if crimes against Americans continued as long as he could take advantage of it politically. He is a horrible person, down to his very core.
First, my views on Trump aren’t based on polls at all, they’re based on his behavior. But if you’re asking whether my impression of public sentiment toward Trump is based on a single poll, the answer is no. All of the major polls, including Fox News, find that Tump’s approval ratings are abysmal. You may be unaware of that from your location in the echo chamber, but it’s a fact.
Now back to the thread topic. Why do you think that fascism under Trump could be “the ideal attempt at democracy”?
ETA: I’m still curious. Did you believe Trump when he said this about Haitian immigrants in Ohio?
keiths,
Show the statement and show how it is a 200x over statement.
Here is one of the activities that Government should be doing IMO.
https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2054628216355090689?s=20
colewd:
I already did. This conversation is pointless if you’re not even going to read what I write:
Your statement has no basis in reality:
Regarding Medicaid fraud, you wrote:
I’m all for eliminating fraud as long as it’s actual fraud. Just be aware that Trump and the Republicans lie about “fraud, waste and abuse” all the time. For instance, Trump said this regarding the OBBBA (aka the “Big Beautiful Bill”):
The reality is that 96.8% of the almost $1 trillion in Medicaid cuts had nothing to do with waste, fraud and abuse. Trump lies about that because he knows that you and your fellow Trump supporters don’t have the inclination and/or skills to figure it out. It’s a bet that has paid off hugely for him. He lies to you constantly, and you have no idea that it’s even happening.
Now back to the thread topic. Why do you think that fascism under Trump could be “the ideal attempt at democracy”?
And yes, I’m still curious: Did you believe Trump when he said this about Haitian immigrants in Ohio?
It’s a simple yes or no question. Did you believe him? Do you think he was right?
keiths,
First II did not claim all 2 million were tied to remain in Mexico. Second people were not turned back at the boarder so they remained in the US. The number of crossings was over 2 million per year now down 10x. I think you should yield points instead of spinning facts. I think the act of spinning facts is confusing you.
It’s good we have common ground around eliminating fraud. I wish more Democrats agreed with you.
Why do you favour the Democratic Party over the Republican Party?
For me, this is not quite accurate, because I do not consider Trump to be a Republican. Historically, the Republican party has had plenty of good ideas, and the idea (not the practice!) of “compassionate conservatism” wasn’t a bad idea.
Today, the main problem I have with the Republican party is, they are simply passive observers to Trump’s destructive actions. It’s up to them to declare a war, not Trump. They are silent. It’s up to them to see their acts are faithfully upheld, but they simply gave Trump the power to do whatever he wants. You may like what Trump wants, but Republicans used to believe in rules. Not any more.
You yourself have illustrated, with every post you make, that Trump is worshipped by his followers, and you simply refuse to accept any facts you dislike. You seem to equate disliking a dictator with disliking Republicans, and this equation fails.
All politicians lie. In general, objective facts are hard to come by.
This is misleading. Near as I can tell, border issues are damn complicated. There are legal immigrants, temporary immigrants, special-interest immigrants, asylum immigrants, and encounters (which are not immigrants). Through all of this, record keeping is hopelessly inadequate for lack of manpower and money. I don’t think it’s possible to make one true statement about the border without a long list of qualifications, exceptions, lack of data, etc.
So sure, I’ll agree the Democrats lied for 4 years if you will agree that Trump lies now, and also lied for 4 years, and that Obama lied and Bush lied and on and on.
Well, two problems there. First, safety is FAR from the number one issue of Government. Where did you get that idea? Second, the fact is that immigration is NOT a safety problem.
I have yet to see you do any critical thinking either, and apparently facts are your enemy. Even your links reference spins, lies, and misinformation.
I asked you earlier why immigration is so bad, considering that we are all immigrants or descended from them. But I thank you for answering that question – you believe all immigrants are dangerous, and facts to the contrary are ignored in self-defense. Personally, I think the U.S. would be much better off if we boosted the immigration quotas WAY up for the nations the illegals are coming from, along with a huge increase in budget, manpower (for courts, for enforcement, for visas, for asylum applicants, etc.).
What’s causing the problems isn’t the immigrants themselves, it’s that the “send me your wretched refuse” philosophy has been replaced by The Wall. You will never understand that we WANT the wretched refuse – under sufficient and competent administration.
Flint,
This is not true I have discussed Trumps strengths and weaknesses. I did not vote for him in every election. I think, however, the demonisation on this site is poorly thought out propaganda with lots of poorly supported assertions.
I agree with you that Trump is not an old time republican. I also think the Democratic Party has moved way too far to the left. I like centrist democrats and they have received almost all my financial support at the local and state level. I would always prefer independent candidates when competent ones surface.
colewd:
I have no idea what you’re trying to say there, but it doesn’t really matter since the dispute is over this statement of yours:
That statement is false. There has never been a month in all of US history in which more than 2 million illegal immigrants crossed the border.
Lol. Stating the truth is not “spinning facts”. You’ve made a series of false claims and I’ve corrected you, presenting you with the actual facts. Your job, which you will shirk, is to revise your beliefs on the basis of those facts. Biden did not have an open border policy, undocumented immigrants are not the spawn of Satan, and 2 million of them did not flood over the border every month after Biden ended the Remain in Mexico policy. The information is out there. Check for yourself instead of swallowing the propaganda you’re being fed.
Who are the Democrats who disagree with me about that? I’m not aware of any who have stated their opposition to eliminating fraud. Since you’re a Trumper, it’s attractive to think of the Democratic party as pro-fraud, just as it’s convenient to think of them as “radical left lunatics” who “hate our country”, or “the party of hate, evil and Satan,” as your demented Dear Leader claims. Don’t follow his idiotic example.
As an adult, my values have aligned more closely with the Democratic party than the Republican. However, despite my differences with the Republicans, I always thought of them as a respectable and legitimate party with whom I shared some important values. No longer. The party has debased itself with its slavish support of the worst and most antidemocratic president in US history, and it has abandoned its own values. Even if I were a conservative’s conservative, I could not be a Republican and still look at myself in the mirror. Reagan would be disgusted with today’s Republicans. George Will, of all people, was so disgusted with them that he left the party.
colewd:
Your criticisms have been the most anodyne possible. He can be a bit caustic, sometimes he exaggerates, he’s got some narcissistic traits but so do other presidents! Yeah, and Putin isn’t as friendly as he could be to the Ukrainians.
Criticisms as mild as that do not make you evenhanded. You’re still a full-blown cult member who, for instance, has acknowledged only a single Trump lie in over a year despite seeing him churn them out on a daily basis and despite being shown that he has told tens of thousands of them.
You weren’t always a cult member, but now you are. What happened?
No, you don’t. If you did, you’d be eager to present the evidence and disprove our claims. Instead, you make vague accusations that you never back up and when pressed on it, you run away. You’re not fooling anyone. We all know that you can’t defend Trump, and we all know that you know that you can’t defend Trump.
To answer the headline question: Yes and yes. And very much necessary too, because Americans don’t know fascism even when it is eating them. The nation is now openly worshipping Trump as a golden calf. USA is a fascist theocracy.
Unfortunately there is no parity. Trump lies dozens of times on TV and social media every day. Nobody else comes even close.
None of you have gotten colewd either to utter a single fact or admit a single lie. Everything colewd says is a lie. He is living up to Trump standards. For example on immigration, he again has quoted *encounters* and he says that these are all new immigrants in USA, which is a lie we went over last year, so he is incorrigible. He is braindead like his golden calf Trump.
If that is truly your main concern, then I do not understand your support for this administration at all. During the immigration protests, the Trump administration illegally deployed the National Guard to Los Angeles. During these confrontations tear gas, flashbangs and rubber bullets were used against protesting citizens. During the Minneapolis razzias, ICE shot and killed two US citizens: Renée Good and Alex Pretti. This makes abundantly clear that the Trump administration does not hesitate to use violence against it own citizens, whenever they dare oppose government policies.
You have stated this in the OP, then I highlighted it early in the thread, now you are mentioning it again, but colewd does not engage with this at all. These are not facts in the MAGA universe. In the MAGA universe there are alternative facts and no one thing needs to be logically connected to any other thing. In the MAGA universe, Trump is sacred and holy and can do no evil, and everything to the contrary is radical leftist propaganda and TDS.
I predict again that colewd will not engage with any facts about immigration, safety, Trump regime suppression of media and protests, deportations and killings of citizens, or any other facts for that matter. He does not even recognise very plain obvious everyday things like the price of gas. He is entirely brainwashed.
It’s always a good idea to define the terms first, talk later. What is “closed” and what is “open” when it comes to borders?
No country’s borders in all history of the world were ever open, in the sense that when too many people passed through, action was taken. In modern history, hardly anyone passes through unnoticed, unless the migrant takes some pretty drastic life-threatening measures, which again certainly should mean that borders are not open.
As to Ellis Island specifically, it was a detention camp to vet the immigrants. The immigrants did not get through just so. According to my knowledge, over a hundred years ago they questioned even casual visitors – not immigrants, but people with a return ticket, i.e. with a provable intent to get out as soon as a small planned visit was done – about their views and e.g. “socialist” journalists were not allowed in despite travel documents being completely in order.
So, borders were never open, not then, not now, and not under Biden. Whoever says borders (or even “boarders”) are or were open has either never been abroad or does not care about the details of visiting a foreign country, details like passports, visas, and border checks. colewd swallows all Trump lies and MAGA slop unquestioned.
Corneel,
Hi Corneel
While your point is a solid criticism that I agree with it is far from balanced analysis.
-Why has ICE activity been so high recently? Because of the Biden’s lack of boarder security IMO.
-Your point does not address US citizens that have been killed and injured by criminals crossing our border.
–
Trumpism is clearly fascism and the lies in operation in colewd’s fried brain are worth to be taken with utmost seriousness. The level of brainwashedness among Trump cultists is absolute. The cultists have totally abandoned reality.
Here’s my point of comparison: Of all places, I grew up in Soviet Union, and I say that the kind of institutionalised lying like in USA right now did not exist in Soviet Union. Lies about gas prices being one thing when they are clearly another thing did not exist (in my era, prices were fixed for decades so there was just simple inevitable honesty on the point of prices). Lies about open borders when borders are actually closed did not exist. More often forced silence existed, e.g. about the Soviet-Afghan war; lies not so much.
Again, I need to ask you to elaborate a little here. Is your point that the illegal deployment of the national guard against US citizens, the detainment of elected US officials and the execution of peaceful US protesters by their own government is justified because sometimes US citizens are killed by illegal immigrants, despite the lower crime rates among immigrants? Is that your idea of your government keeping you safe?
ETA: legibility
Corneel,
Hi Corneel
I do not know much about then national guard deployment against protestors. Were the protestors damaging property or were they just peaceful protesting. Here is an excerpt from a google search.
The Mayor of LA is terrible IMO as she does very little to help the city two of my children and two of my grandchildren live near. Lots of corruption is being reported in California especially Los Angeles. San Francisco used to be in the same condition and Mayor Lurie (who I supported financially) is cleaning the city up.
That is worrisome. It even hit the news here across the Atlantic. Why did your news sources fail to cover that?
According to my sources the protesters were not doing anything that justified mobilization of the national guard. In fact, Trump was acting against the express wish of the Californian governor Gavin Newsom. A federal judge later found Trump’s use of troops in Los Angeles to be illegal as it had exceeded the limits of federal laws that generally prohibit the use of the military for domestic law enforcement. Trump abused his position to repress your fellow citizens who happened to not agree with his immigration policies.
That may be your opinion, but your political preferences are irrelevant to the matter at hand. The citizens you politically disagree with still have as much right to free speech, security and protection of their civil rights as you do. THAT is democracy.
Corneel,
Your sources were probably biased. Newsom is a terrible governor and is clearly a money raising machine which he along getting elected is all he focuses on.
This is possible but not supported by my initial search that I shared. The protest was violent and beyond the capability of local law enforcement.
I am fine with protest as long as it is peaceful. The data I have at this point is that the LA protests were not peaceful and resulted in property damage. Your information sources look highly biased at this point. Does this concern you?
https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtNQ_02ebbda7-a214-443e-88b9-61d752d03bd1
Corneel,
My demeanour on reading these exchanges becomes more and more like your avatar….
No understanding of what a fact is and what is not (Hint: “Newsom is a terrible governor” is not a fact.) No recognition of the killings by ICE (Hint: The killings occurred in Minneapolis, not in LA.). No recognition of deportations of citizens, etc. etc.
Facts do not exist in the MAGA universe, see? Not a single citation of news sources, only AI. Why? Because all real reporting is necessarily biased in the MAGA universe. In USA, lunacy rules and Trump is god.
Sure, as long as you define “biased” as “I don’t trust them because they use facts.” Most of us have watched the videos, which we prefer to your lying eyes.
Where do you get your information? Not even Fox News makes such claims.
I imagine we all watched the video of the ICE agent walking up to a preacher and shooting him point blank in the head. For which he suffered no consequences, of course. Enough of that, and the predictable public response is sure to be beyond the capability of local law enforcement. (AND please note that the ICE agents are masked, never held responsible, poorly trained and well funded.)
You might, in some other universe, wonder what caused all these protests in the first place. You might even notice that of the thousands of protests that have occurred, the ONLY ones where there was violence was those where ICE provoked it.
But rather than parroting your brainwashers, you might consider that ICE activity has been so high because (1) The Trump administration gave ICE well over a billion dollars to go out and provoke violence so he could crack down on it and produce photo ops for people like you; and (2) Stephen Miller demanded that they arrest at least 3000 people a day – almost none of whom had any criminal record. THINK for a change! Indiscriminately grabbing people off the street (including 5-year-old children) is guaranteed to cause violent protest, which is then used to justify even more ICE abuse.
Do you seriously believe that provoking violent protest is intended to “keep America safer”, when it demonstrably and consistently does the opposite? Trump believes you are stupid, and treats you that way, and it works!